IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-12-15
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00:00:25 <andythenorth> French electricity tastes better
00:01:12 <andythenorth> allegedly the NL connector is quite important, Northern Europe has a lot of installed wind and often needs to dump excess generation into UK / rest of Europe
00:02:51 <frosch123> the exports to switzerland are probably transit to italy
00:04:06 <andythenorth> UK renewables often hits as high as 50% now
00:04:10 <andythenorth> including biomass
00:06:01 <andythenorth> so Germany exports quite a lot
00:06:20 <frosch123> it transits a lot :p
00:06:36 <frosch123> biomass is a lot bigger than i remember
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00:06:51 <glx> it's in the middle, so of course lot of transit :)
00:07:16 <frosch123> it has been very windy today
00:07:17 <andythenorth> I was suspicious about biomass being a con
00:07:34 <frosch123> though i am in the south, so there is hardly any wind plant here. only solar stuff
00:07:35 <andythenorth> but apparently biomass is close to neutral, and is a valid transition tech
00:08:29 <andythenorth> I suspect finland and ireland biomass is quite different to UK import of canadian woodchips
00:08:38 <andythenorth> burning peat is basically frigging awful :)
00:08:59 <frosch123> biomass is quite good, but it's also limited amounts. you cannot just build more of them, like you could for solar
00:09:29 <frosch123> biomass is cow/pig poop
00:09:42 <andythenorth> anaerobic digestion
00:10:39 <andythenorth> FIRS has peat power plant, maybe I should make it close :P
00:13:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: almost no wind in august
00:14:18 <frosch123> current numbers are quite above average
00:14:36 <andythenorth> does climate change make more wind? :P
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00:16:47 <andythenorth> iceland can leave all the lights on
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00:17:24 <frosch123> as long as noone mines bits
00:19:03 <frosch123> hmm, why is italy split up into multiple parts on that map?
00:19:18 <frosch123> anyway, the import/export arrows are cool
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10:56:45 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: TF2, is the cargo filter broken? If I set a train to load "wood" at a sawmill it won't load anything, if I don't set the filter it works well
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11:36:30 <peter1138> Why would Team Fortress 2 have a cargo filter?
11:42:42 <Wolf01> Btw, it's a bit like locomotion now, replace vehicle works when running, not in depot, you set the maintenance cost (normal|high|very high) and it just keeps your vehicles in "good" shape, you can't set when to replace a vehicle with a new model, you have wrong traffic side for train signals and it don't seem to be changed
11:46:03 <Wolf01> Cloning vehicles is a pita. They always appear in the wrong depot
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11:47:40 <SpComb> I've only had a chance to test out the first Campaigns so far, planning on playing more today
11:47:49 <nielsm> yeah destination depot for cloning is really bad
11:48:14 <nielsm> the campaigns are more like puzzles than challenges, at least the first part
11:48:26 <SpComb> the combined pax/cargo stations with separate icons rrally tripped me up badly
11:49:02 <SpComb> I can't imagine very many players would be able to figure it out immediately
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11:54:51 <Wolf01> The date speed is nice, too bad it's limited to 1/4, I liked the 1/8 of TF1 mod, but you can totally pause the date
11:55:01 <Wolf01> You can play 1860 forever
11:55:30 <SpComb> whyyy would you do that
11:56:17 <Wolf01> I wouldn't, I'll paly 1920 forever :>
11:56:23 <SpComb> I was greatly amused by the orange plastic traffic cones around the 1850 industry mine pits / factory buildings
11:57:18 <SpComb> yeah, they also have electric outside lighting and HVAC system vents :P
11:57:32 <Wolf01> Also the mines which seem a rollercoaster...
11:59:08 <nielsm> what I miss in TF2 as much as in TF1 are industries changing over time
11:59:33 <nielsm> why are there plastic industries in 1850
11:59:44 <nielsm> industries never close and new ones never open
12:00:00 <nielsm> and industry production levels are entirely deterministic on your performance
12:01:00 <Wolf01> Time to ruin my performance by building a cargo hub
12:02:25 <Wolf01> I hate not being able to rotate with a finer angle to align to existing roads...
12:02:39 <Wolf01> At least on TF1 it self aligned when placed near a road
12:02:53 <nielsm> shift+N/M do finer rotation
12:03:12 <nielsm> but I keep hitting B (bulldoze) when I reach for N/M blindly
12:03:29 <nielsm> and pressing B again does not return to the tool you were using before, just to no tool
12:05:49 <nielsm> pondering whether to stream some?
12:09:32 <SpComb> I remapped N/M to Q/E right away
12:10:22 <SpComb> also remapped the number hotkeys for construction to include things like railway signals, which is probably the most common thing you need...
12:11:11 <SpComb> the tilt/rotation controls are also inverted by default...
12:12:01 <SpComb> I would have wanted to return the game for a refund if it didn't have an option to re-invert those back to their correct behavior :P
12:12:07 <nielsm> yeah took me 3 tries to get the rotation and tilt to make sense
12:12:30 <nielsm> and very annoying they can only be changed from the main menu, not in game
12:12:36 <SpComb> yeah, and toggling them is a full game restart...
12:12:58 <SpComb> I left pan/zoom at the default and toggled tilt/rotate
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12:55:11 <Wolf01> Is it me or it's really easier to earn money compared to TF1?
12:55:52 <Wolf01> All seem to work out of the box here
12:56:51 <SpComb> pax or cargo? The industry supply/prodction economy should have been simplified
12:58:08 <SpComb> haven't gotten that far yet
12:59:08 <Wolf01> I have a double line between 2 cities with pax and cargo, in one city I deliver tools and the other food, so they exchange... and even with little amounts of cargo the trains are profitable
12:59:36 <SpComb> what about when they age
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13:02:57 <Wolf01> It's nice how they can fit a house in the smallest space you left between a road and a station...
13:04:26 <nielsm> that's something cities:skylines has received a lot of critique about yeah
13:04:41 <nielsm> how house sizes are inflexible
13:05:06 <SpComb> strict zoning regulations
13:06:22 <SpComb> how well do multiple overlapping passenger routes work? In TF1 I've always avoided setting up more than one route between two stations, because passengers seem to always want to prefer one and the other one runs empty
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13:45:15 <milek7_> ..how these trains reverse without being push-pull? ;P
13:45:48 <Wolf01> I'll tell when I'll connect to the next city, but for sure 3 points routes works fine (wood->planks->factory)
13:46:25 <frosch123> it took me some time to learn that you can put engines at the end of trains in factorio
13:48:36 <Wolf01> Hmm, I don't know if it's better to separate the farms and the food routes, and put a hub to get all the grain from all the nearest farms before bringing it to the food industry
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14:35:38 <frosch123> no idea what to do with it
14:35:46 <frosch123> it makes no sense when using newgrf railtypes
14:36:08 <frosch123> yet if i remove it, some non-newgrf players will complain that the "select latest railtype in gui" setting does no longer work
14:37:48 <andythenorth> is it worth removing?
14:38:21 <frosch123> i am quite sure i used that setting as well when playing
14:38:48 <frosch123> when you load a savegame you forget to select the railtype that you always use
14:39:19 <frosch123> iirc there is also a setting "select most used railtype", but unless you upgrade everything that may be wrong as well
14:42:47 <frosch123> ah, tracktype have a sorting order property
14:42:50 <frosch123> so it should use that one
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15:12:51 <peter1138> frosch123, you'd think. That's buggy, and I didn't bother unbugging it ;)
15:13:10 <peter1138> In fact, I don't think I ever mentioned or documented that, heh.
15:13:24 <peter1138> (It broke with the 16 to 64 upgrade)
15:16:16 <frosch123> huh? it never worked with non-default railtypes. the 64 upgrade does not matter, does it?
15:21:05 <peter1138> I mean the sorting order property.
15:26:53 <frosch123> ah, the default value thingie
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15:32:55 <nielsm> argh I keep building the wrong wagon types especially when replacing trains...
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16:58:04 <andythenorth> depot drag only drags the first 2 units of an articulated vehicle?
16:58:22 * andythenorth doesn't normally have more than 2 units
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17:15:48 <frosch123> no, it draws N pixels
17:16:01 <frosch123> there is no limit on the number of vehicle parts
17:16:09 <frosch123> but it won't draw the mouse cursor over half the screen
17:17:38 <andythenorth> that would be silly
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17:18:30 <andythenorth> I was just surprised, a 2 unit 12/8 vehicle is drawn 100%, but a 3 unit 12/8 vehicle only draws the first 2 units
17:18:38 <frosch123> ah, looks like N is 16/8 vehicle length :)
17:19:26 <andythenorth> I could make a video, but eh it's overkill, just checking I didn't write a broken grf
17:19:45 <frosch123> i thought it would truncate the sprite, but apparently it draws whole articulated parts
17:20:03 <andythenorth> I doubt anyone will notice except people like me
17:21:37 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: glx was last seen in #openttd 17 hours, 14 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <glx> it is still windy here
17:30:57 <andythenorth> hmm, not sure how to use that yet
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17:33:44 <andythenorth> can't see anything that makes a switch a procedure
17:34:43 <frosch123> there is an example
17:35:15 <frosch123> if your switch is named "foobar", just use "foobar()" in some expression
17:35:33 <frosch123> and it will use the result of the switch, or whatever temp storage you modify
17:43:01 <andythenorth> oh I missed the ()
17:44:35 <FLHerne> Needs middle-of-road tramways :P
17:49:12 <andythenorth> FLHerne: tell me about your bus needs
17:49:24 <andythenorth> couple of people mention that Hog isn't enough bus variety
17:50:14 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I said before, my bus needs from Hog are "let me turn the buses off", because Bob's British Buses has plenty ;-)
17:50:24 <FLHerne> I can hide them manually, of course
17:50:35 <andythenorth> I'm possibly open to parameter
17:50:59 <andythenorth> I'll ask Jake what he's missing from Hog bus
17:51:06 <FLHerne> That being the case, I can't really tell you what's wrong with them except that I'm not a fan of the art style
17:51:37 <FLHerne> EGRVTS has parameters by vehicle category, which is what I was using before Hog
17:51:59 <FLHerne> (I'm not really sure why I'm using Hog now, curiosity?)
17:52:36 <andythenorth> I'm not very satisfied with Hog
17:52:41 <andythenorth> it was ok in a pre-NRTworld
17:53:12 <andythenorth> also the sprites are poor, with hindsight
17:53:46 <andythenorth> I have nearly learnt to draw now
17:56:38 <FLHerne> Unrelated Hog thing, why do I only seem to have steam lorries in 1936?
17:57:04 <FLHerne> I think the Hog buses are very TTD-ish?
17:57:52 <FLHerne> Which is nice in a generally vanilla game, but doesn't fit well with the lots-of-tiny-details style used by many grfs
17:58:06 <FLHerne> (ISTR saying the same thing about Horse)
17:58:24 <FLHerne> So...it's fine, just not what I want
17:58:29 <andythenorth> it does seem to be only steam trucks in 1936
17:58:38 <andythenorth> I think I went on an alt-history bender
17:59:10 <andythenorth> steam trucks were extant for a longtime (although not majority)
18:00:08 <andythenorth> wow no diesel trucks until 1945 :D
18:00:23 <andythenorth> that's opinionated
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18:05:20 * andythenorth wonders who makes this stuff
18:16:23 <frosch123> maybe pikka convinced you that 5 vehicles is enough
18:16:38 <frosch123> so there was no room for early diesel
18:22:37 <peter1138> We let you create thousands, because a hundred wasn't enough...
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18:45:19 <andythenorth> imagine the compile time with thousands :P
18:46:18 <andythenorth> Horse does have 408 trains though
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20:41:37 * andythenorth wonders what vars are safe inside a stored procedure
20:41:54 <andythenorth> e.g. if I try to access vehicle random bits, will that work?
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20:43:19 <frosch123> it's the same as every other switch
21:03:36 <andythenorth> I'm missing something
21:03:49 <andythenorth> what's different between using a stored procedure, and just having a global switch?
21:04:00 <andythenorth> obvs. there is a difference, but what?
21:04:38 <frosch123> with a global switch you can do: (vehicle specific) -> (global) -> result
21:04:57 <frosch123> with a procedure you can do: (vehicle speicifc) -> (global) -> (vehicle specific) -> result
21:05:27 <frosch123> i.e. from a global switch you cannot continue with vehicle specific code
21:05:29 <andythenorth> because the vehicle can determine what to do withe procedure result
21:05:39 <frosch123> well, unless you add a switch to distinguish by vehicle id again, but well...
21:05:40 <andythenorth> withe is a word? :P
21:06:51 <andythenorth> lol I am banned on coop pastebin :)
21:06:53 <andythenorth> "Your IP address is listed as a malicious IP."
21:08:02 <andythenorth> seems like a stored procedure, returning 0 or 1
21:08:22 <frosch123> what are they used for?
21:08:32 <andythenorth> vehicle changes speed with certain engine IDs
21:09:39 <frosch123> one engine checking for another?
21:09:43 <frosch123> or engine checking for wagons?
21:09:51 <andythenorth> engine checks for another
21:09:51 <frosch123> why are there so many valid combinations?
21:10:08 <andythenorth> any express engine is valid
21:10:14 <frosch123> is the speed limit not the minimum of both speed limits?
21:10:15 <andythenorth> I could do it with those weird user bits?
21:10:31 <andythenorth> no those user bits are too weird
21:11:04 <nielsm> oh yeah, a random thought I had in the shower today and just recalled: penalty weight for certain vehicles carrying certain cargo types, e.g. if you load oil on a container flatcar, the car would gain an additional few tons of dead weight from the oil tank in container format
21:11:30 <andythenorth> it's max(engine speed, generation-specific express engine speed)
21:11:45 <andythenorth> if no valid express engine is attached, it's just engine speed
21:12:12 <andythenorth> it's a really stupid feature, I'm not going to try and rationalise it
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21:14:09 <frosch123> i guess user bits may be the right solution :p
21:14:47 <andythenorth> they have a use? :P
21:14:54 <frosch123> express engine sets user value 0x80. the other engines checks whether anyone did set 0x80
21:15:05 <frosch123> iirc they were invented to check for salon vans
21:15:19 <andythenorth> they seem so likely to go wrong :P
21:15:31 <andythenorth> do they predate engine pool by any chance?
21:15:42 <frosch123> yes, they fail if you mix newgrfs that both want to use them
21:16:16 <andythenorth> is there a fake shock emoticon?
21:16:18 <frosch123> just 8 bits, no 4-byte labels for user properties :p
21:16:37 <frosch123> always use the cookie emoji
21:16:39 <andythenorth> I am going to try this as a stored procedure, I was looking for an excuse
21:16:45 <frosch123> you can eat it at least
21:17:12 <frosch123> i see no usecase for stored procedure
21:17:31 <andythenorth> could just be a global switch?
21:17:40 <frosch123> if you want less switches, you can replace them all with a single switch with count(a)+count(b)+..+
21:17:47 <andythenorth> the required speed varies by engine
21:18:19 <frosch123> you can also STORE_TEMP the two results in advance
21:18:23 <andythenorth> if I do count(a)+count(b) doesn't nml expand all that to some horror?
21:18:33 <frosch123> but ok, you can also use a procedure for that
21:19:02 <andythenorth> so this could just be a global switch with 2 registers
21:19:04 <frosch123> i don't recall a limit on the terms in a sum
21:19:39 <andythenorth> oof, wonder why I did this for purchase speed, let's not look too closely "${int(1.60934 * consist.speed)}"
21:20:15 <andythenorth> apparently works
21:23:04 <frosch123> in callbacks you have to do your own mph->kmh conversion, while nml can do it in properties
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22:23:08 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #66: Add: allow use of switches and random switches as procedures https://git.io/JeQ1H
22:23:21 <andythenorth> oh glx is here now :)
22:25:07 * andythenorth wonders why the stored procedure compiles 9 seconds faster, must just be local variation
22:26:09 <andythenorth> unless nml store temp is really expensive
22:28:04 <glx> using constant is faster than LOAD_TEMP()
22:28:27 <andythenorth> in compile? No expansion of advanced varact2?
22:28:30 <glx> IIRC LOAD_TEMP() is done via action D
22:28:59 <andythenorth> stored procedure consistently compiles faster than the STORE_TEMP alternative
22:29:16 <andythenorth> it's only a couple of seconds when comparing worst and best times
22:29:21 <andythenorth> and 9s for best and worst times
22:29:56 <andythenorth> so how close to done is PR 66? :)
22:30:24 <glx> it's probably ok, I should undraft it :)
22:30:52 <andythenorth> I don't mind testing in a branch, but I don't want to go too far from master :P
22:31:18 <glx> btw compare the NFO, you'll see why compile takes more time when not using constants
22:31:44 <andythenorth> I used to write all the advanced varact2 by hand for registers
22:32:48 <glx> IIRC load_temp is compiled as an action D and action 6, so it reads the value then overwrite a placeholder in the varact2
22:34:42 <andythenorth> that's...baroque :)
22:35:46 <andythenorth> Iron Horse nfo with stored procedure is only 3000 bytes smaller :)
22:35:58 <andythenorth> on 18.4MB file :)
22:36:10 <andythenorth> 'every little helps'
22:36:28 <glx> yeah, not a big improvement
22:37:12 <andythenorth> there will be bigger improvements
22:37:17 <andythenorth> I picked an easy case to start
22:42:16 <andythenorth> there are 1700 switches dealing just with sticking a red pixel on the last vehicle of the train
22:42:57 <andythenorth> those can't trivially be global-with-register, so stored procedure might help
22:44:17 <andythenorth> hmmm why do I call them 'stored procedures' they're just 'procedures'
22:44:23 <andythenorth> blame years-ago mySQL
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