IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-11-16
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08:58:15 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so when do we fork the newgrf spec for jgrpp? <-- that doesn't make any sense
08:59:30 <andythenorth> fork might not be the right word
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09:04:21 <andythenorth> it's similar to when TTDP was a concern
09:15:46 <peter1138> That's for JGR to do, not us.
09:18:08 <andythenorth> I was thinking about wiki
09:20:02 <Eddi|zuHause> we already had discussions about including patchpack stuff in the specs. that's not really the big problem though
09:20:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the big problem is, how to make newgrf coders use them, without losing the ability to load the same newgrfs in trunk (now and in the future)
09:22:22 <andythenorth> isn't the situation akin to when TTDP could no longer load OpenTTD grfs?
09:23:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the target audience
09:26:04 <Eddi|zuHause> when openttd made the step towards grfv8 (which is, i believe, the point you refer to), TTDP had a miniscule following, and no active development anymore
09:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas with JGRPP, the userbase of that is still just a tiny fragment of the OTTD userbase
09:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, OTTD still has active development
09:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, none of the JGRPP changes are of any scale similar to grfv8
09:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so, it's not like it would be impossible to make a GRF that loads in both
09:33:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so, what's actually needed is a way to include the JGRPP-specific features in your GRF, that can be safely skipped in openttd versions that don't have them (yet)
09:34:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the specs technically have all the tools to achieve that
09:37:07 <andythenorth> I suspect that it's more likely grfs will just target jgr
09:37:25 <andythenorth> that will become interesting on bananas
09:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i find that rather unlikely
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09:50:58 <andythenorth> is that not the standard bias towards the existing?
09:51:20 <andythenorth> there's a cohort who still can't quite get over the way TTDP lost :P
09:59:02 <andythenorth> something about bridgeheads or bridges on tunnels or programmable signals or something
09:59:27 <andythenorth> TTDP is still alive also
10:01:45 * andythenorth never played it, was it good?
10:57:53 <Samu> that savegame on 1.10 beta
10:58:09 <Samu> gives me a higher average ms for road vehicle ticks
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11:22:19 <peter1138> Is it a release build?
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11:23:23 <Samu> downloaded from the website
11:23:59 <Samu> the builds I builds with visual studio give me 64 ms
11:25:44 <Samu> im trying to build 1.10 myself
11:30:40 <Samu> yeah, i get less ms with my own builds than the official builds
11:44:32 <LordAro> it's possible that visual studio is being "clever" and optimising it specifically for your computer, but that's unlikely
11:59:05 <Samu> is there a hotkey for opening the frame rate window?
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15:23:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7835: Fix e3511ecac: don't use bash specific syntax (again) https://git.io/Jeo0J
15:23:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7835: Fix e3511ecac: don't use bash specific syntax (again) https://git.io/Jer76
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15:31:55 <frosch123> ah, that's where the "again" in bash originates from :)
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15:44:09 <supermop_Home> sure, unless you want mk2s to get a yellow panel automatically when on in
15:44:40 <supermop_Home> if you use shunting patch dvts / etc become pretty functional
15:44:51 <andythenorth> has to be an engine to lead the train, so it can't just be a sprite change
15:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm not sure what's the difference
15:45:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: just a generation thing
15:45:13 <supermop_Home> I will say tho dbso less interesting than dvt as it is not pointy
15:45:20 <andythenorth> yeah, that was my though
15:45:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you can reuse the DVT code, then just draw it?
15:45:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: exactly
15:46:12 <andythenorth> I'd have to draw the damn thing though :P
15:46:34 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Instead of it being a loco, you could always just flip the consist using grf magic :P
15:46:43 <supermop_Home> it's been a while since I used shunting patch, but I recall that trains reversing with a regular wagon forward are limited to a very low shunting speed
15:46:58 <andythenorth> blue pullman it is then :P
15:47:03 <andythenorth> that's like an hour of drawing :P
15:47:06 <FLHerne> (remember those UKRS2 railmotors?)
15:47:21 <supermop_Home> whereas a dvt on ends would be a neat way to differentiate those trains you want to be push-pull
15:47:24 <andythenorth> or should I just do a Blue Pullman as precursor to HST?
15:47:40 <andythenorth> it wouldn't be fast though, just different
15:47:58 <FLHerne> andythenorth: With the current DVT-as-loco, does the consist still get visually flipped when reversing? Would spoil the effect a bit
15:48:05 <andythenorth> no it doesn't flip
15:48:26 <andythenorth> I don't get involved in shuffling train sprites around, current code is already at limit of complexity
15:48:27 <FLHerne> I know it's easy to disable for a single vehicle, wasn't sure if the whole train can
15:48:35 <andythenorth> if we want consist flip, game should do it
15:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: the consist as a whole will still flip, but you can use newgrf tricks to hide that
15:48:39 <andythenorth> it's a level beyond newgrf
15:48:52 <FLHerne> Oh, I think I read your answer backwar
15:49:00 <andythenorth> it behaves vanilla
15:49:06 <supermop_Home> maybe i'll try shunting patch again with these dvts
15:49:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
15:49:40 <andythenorth> I'll do a gen 4 version
15:50:04 <glx> nic conflicts with $Id$ removal :)
15:50:09 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, but that's a lot of magic property-switching rather than just setting a flag :-/
15:50:41 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: yeah, the magic flag wasn't implemented yet. it needs some internal restructuring to handle cycling through wagons backwards
15:51:36 <supermop_Home> i'll have to abandon my almost fully built desert steeltown game
15:51:52 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: particularly, moving must flip between cycling forwards and backwards, but newgrf callbacks and stuff must always cycle forwards
15:51:59 <andythenorth> supermop_Home: I'll have to send you a grf :P
15:52:04 <andythenorth> no bundles any more :)
15:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i believe frosch123 once had enthusiams to solve that, but then was met with a wall of "... but it must also support X"
15:52:59 * andythenorth wonders how it could be abstracted
15:53:01 <FLHerne> Business as usual, then
15:53:09 <andythenorth> reversing a list is....pretty vanilla :P
15:53:46 <andythenorth> where we doing VehicleVariants?
15:53:53 <andythenorth> or did I make that unappealing :(
15:53:57 <supermop_Home> just merge the shunting patch, lost wagons and low speed collisions and all
15:54:08 <andythenorth> and a borderline toxic author
15:54:11 <andythenorth> always goes well
15:54:39 <FLHerne> I'd have thought the obvious thing would be to have a "don't reverse consist" flag on the leading engine, and I don't really see how that could be hacked into "...and also I want ponies"
15:54:52 <FLHerne> Well, I suppose 'do magically reverse consist'
15:55:10 <andythenorth> /me can instantly think of things
15:55:19 <andythenorth> like where does the tail light go?
15:55:48 <frosch123> i don't think i published that old patch on gh yet
15:56:41 <FLHerne> Oh, and I guess one might wish to force it with an order
15:56:52 <FLHerne> For 'reverse into a siding'
15:57:14 <FLHerne> And then you need a property to determine how fast the train can go backwards
15:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: that's more like shunting, though. and order list is already overloaded
15:57:49 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Well, yeah
15:59:24 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i'd declare that "out of scope"
16:01:32 <andythenorth> hmm steep slopes are too hard to draw
16:01:39 <andythenorth> pixels not suited to it
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16:10:13 * andythenorth sacks that cab car idea
16:10:46 <Eddi|zuHause> just make it a flat front?
16:13:12 <supermop_Home> on these old railway clearing house maps where every tiny hamlet seems to have 1 or two stations...
16:13:46 <supermop_Home> lots of towns also seem to have a little siding terminal named "(village) Goods"
16:14:25 <supermop_Home> were they delivering trainloads of manufactured products to all of these small towns?
16:14:42 <supermop_Home> or did these just serve some local light industry /agriculture
16:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i would assume some train making its round leaving single wagons behind
16:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and sporadically some farmer ordering a year's supply of fertilizer or stuff
16:19:11 <supermop_Home> … i can see why they ripped most of this up in the 60s
16:19:38 <michi_cc> You don't t need to transport that much to make the railway seem superior.
16:21:14 <supermop_Home> i'm thinking more in terms of the time and effort to couple and decouple wagons everywhere
16:21:52 <supermop_Home> it seems like even by 1903 passenger traffic would be such you'd only be able to do this in the middle of the night
16:23:06 <FLHerne> supermop_Home: Pretty much every station used to have its own goods yard or siding
16:23:48 <FLHerne> Used for coal, fertilizer, agricultural products, whatever
16:23:57 <supermop_Home> if they'd had containers and little gantry cranes at each back then maybe more would survive
16:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: branch lines had combined passenger/freight trains
16:24:29 <FLHerne> There were a lot of loops, so it was quite easy to recess freight trains between passenger runs
16:26:32 <andythenorth> wagons were also storage
16:28:05 <FLHerne> supermop_Home: Pick any random local station
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16:28:48 <FLHerne> (I picked Newthorpe, East Leake, Mickleover)
16:29:07 <FLHerne> All but the very smallest have a short freight loop and/or a couple of sidings
16:33:53 * andythenorth considers gypsum
16:50:22 <FLHerne> ^ that looks like it's also an OTTD bug
16:50:36 <FLHerne> (I assume they shouldn't be able to crash the game)
17:02:38 <supermop_Home> andythenorth: drywalltown?
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17:56:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on issue #57: GRF integer parameters can be given negative values. https://git.io/JeoEa
18:00:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] spnda commented on issue #57: GRF integer parameters can be given negative values. https://git.io/JeoEa
18:05:48 <spnda> Hey, should I reopen my issue form OpenTTD/nml to OpenTTD/OpenTTD?
18:11:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on issue #57: GRF integer parameters can be given negative values. https://git.io/JeoEa
18:17:19 <FLHerne> spnda: It's separate bugs in both of them, really
18:17:44 <FLHerne> NML shouldn't allow it, but OTTD shouldn't crash either (after all, there are NFO grfs...)
18:18:10 <spnda> Probably, yes. I'll reopen the NML issue aswell. I'm about to submit one on the OpenTTD repository aswell.
18:18:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda opened issue #7836: Negativ Integer values for GRF Parameters crashes the game https://git.io/Jeozl
18:38:04 <FLHerne> I was thinking of having another go at a multiplayer game but with UKRS2 this time
18:46:44 <FLHerne> ^did that, started server
18:46:58 <FLHerne> "Casual UK-ish server"
18:47:21 <FLHerne> ping supermop_Home, Eddi|zuHause, andythenorth :P
18:47:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what do i have to do with that?
18:50:57 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Sorry, I realized a problem, should be back
18:51:12 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Sorry, ISTR playing multiplayer with you before
18:51:17 <FLHerne> Maybe I have names crossed
18:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i've only ever played multiplayer once, and that was on brianettas server
18:53:44 <FLHerne> Bleh, now I found another issue...
18:53:57 * FLHerne awaits safe ingame newgrf fiddling
18:58:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth/supermop_Home: Should be fixed and running [again]
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19:45:48 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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