IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-11-17
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06:37:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap) https://git.io/Jeo1m
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08:21:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap) https://git.io/JegRL
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08:27:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap) https://git.io/JegRL
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09:17:01 <andythenorth> interesting eh? :)
09:19:00 <andythenorth> pls discurse on snowploughs?
09:19:09 <andythenorth> I am considering
09:19:26 <andythenorth> is that like slough?
09:19:57 <andythenorth> are snoughploughs pointy?
09:21:07 <Pikka> fairly pointless I'd say
09:21:43 <andythenorth> do you have a sprite for them somewhere?
09:22:22 <andythenorth> I probably have it decompled already, but which set :P
09:23:02 <Pikka> I think there was one in NARS1
09:23:17 <Pikka> I'll see if I can find it
09:24:20 <Pikka> if people don't feel there's enough time to play with their favourite era of vehicles, just lock the grf to that era :P
09:24:35 <andythenorth> that's interesting
09:24:59 <andythenorth> I was going to do 2 params, 'generation length' and 'gen 1 start date'
09:25:05 <andythenorth> but Eddi|zuHause said I was wrong :P
09:28:54 <LordAro> andythenorth: wallyweb, the guy that still uses XP and only very begrudgingly uses OTTD over TTDP? i have to say, i am surprised
09:30:39 <andythenorth> LordAro: I suspect there will be JGR-specific FIRS soon
09:31:22 <andythenorth> there isn't an attached question, it's just interesting watching transitions between software
09:35:24 <LordAro> andythenorth: what features are you looking to use?
09:35:36 * LordAro disappears for 4 hours
09:35:39 <andythenorth> I think it will get forked for daylength
09:36:35 <andythenorth> I don't use JGR, I find it overwhelming and confusing
09:40:48 <andythenorth> how fast are snoughploughs then pikka?
09:42:17 <Pikka> I don't know. Is anyone going to use it on a real train?
09:42:34 <andythenorth> 20 bags of mail?
09:43:11 <andythenorth> hmm, it has to be an engine, can't set 'no speed limit' :P
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09:49:23 <nielsm> about 60 km/h for snowploughs I think
09:52:10 <andythenorth> UK rules say 45mph
09:52:44 <andythenorth> co-incidence, I just finished drawing the shunter sprite :P
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10:34:56 <andythenorth> this sprite is lolz bad, but I might keep it :)
10:35:05 <andythenorth> pikka pikka pikka
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11:13:47 <andythenorth> not sure it's better
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11:59:54 * andythenorth_ tries to remember why daylength will never work
12:00:22 <andythenorth_> we figured it out here once, but I forgot :p
12:01:04 <andythenorth_> something like ‘daylength doesn’t work like people think it does’
12:01:10 <frosch123> it's about trying to slow tech progression without changing econonmy
12:01:47 <andythenorth_> apparently it will be fine if I just make a JGR FIRS?
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12:13:11 <andythenorth_> problem was conflicting player goals for daylength
12:13:32 <andythenorth_> hence can never work
12:14:11 <andythenorth_> but if it’s done in JGR is it time to just merge it?
12:16:01 <andythenorth_> also has anyone tried it?
12:16:34 * andythenorth_ wonders what it looks like with trains moving much slower
12:16:49 <andythenorth_> seems like it would be very very dull
12:18:42 <andythenorth_> if they want to play the game at 15fps they could just buy a Mac :D
12:29:36 <Pikka> I do like the stripey snoughplow though
12:31:08 <andythenorth_> or thoughplough
12:35:09 <andythenorth_> I need to plug 3 hdmi devices into a TV with 2 hdmi ports
12:35:27 <andythenorth_> is there a solution? o_O?
13:23:49 <TrueBrain> no; nobody solved that. ever. :P
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15:42:39 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: you have solved my problem!
15:51:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman opened pull request #59: Simplify pillow imports and version detection https://git.io/Jeo5R
15:51:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on pull request #54: Fix #39: Add compatibility with >=pillow-7.0.0 https://git.io/Jeo50
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16:11:11 <supermop_Home> what's in 1.10.0?
16:11:24 <supermop_Home> somehow it feels early
16:13:13 <nielsm> earlier plan was to have 1.10 final out by october or there about, obviously didn't happen
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17:27:06 <nielsm> it should be possible to add a GS function to modify LA rating
17:27:24 <nielsm> maybe let GS set a flag to freeze GS rating for a company in a town
17:28:52 <nielsm> freeze LA rating for a company*
17:29:58 <andythenorth> is that get only?
17:30:58 <nielsm> and even GS can only get the rating category, not the exact numeric rating
17:31:05 <andythenorth> alternatively we could redefine 'permissive' for the existing openttd setting
17:31:31 <andythenorth> I'm strugging to see a downside to just nerfing the town hostility via the setting
17:31:37 <andythenorth> it's not adding a *new* setting
17:32:38 <nielsm> yeah it'd make sense to allow people who don't play for a game challenge to just not be troubled by towns
17:33:04 <andythenorth> seems to be RATING_ROAD_NEEDED_PERMISSIVE and similar
17:33:59 <andythenorth> new setting 'anything goes' ?
17:34:03 <andythenorth> all values set to -1000?
17:34:24 <andythenorth> I have used 'permissive' for years, and I find it very restrictive
17:34:37 <andythenorth> that, and not being able to remove connected road pieces
17:37:10 <andythenorth> shall I try and patch this?
17:37:18 <andythenorth> one more for the huge stack of PRs? :)
17:37:19 <nielsm> hmm actually, that setting, does it not affect the rate at which LA rating changes, but rather just the rating thresholds for being allowed certain actions?
17:37:30 <andythenorth> it would still be 'appalling'
17:37:36 <andythenorth> but it wouldn't matter
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19:35:46 <andythenorth> this shape is _so_ simple to draw in OpenTTD pixels :)
19:40:31 <LordAro> be better at copying links
19:45:50 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:46:52 <andythenorth> I considered SnowPlough grf :P
19:46:56 <andythenorth> all transport types
19:47:03 <andythenorth> can we give them some purpose? :P
19:49:52 <frosch123> confuse future generations when they find the grf in the ice?
19:50:52 <andythenorth> might be too late for me :P
19:50:59 <andythenorth> long game though
19:54:53 <andythenorth> OpenTTD is still being played in 100 years?
19:55:05 <andythenorth> Or it isn't because civilisational collapse?
19:56:11 <nielsm> need a way for newgrf vehicles (and industries and houses and newobjects) to produce decorative particles
19:57:11 <nielsm> for snowploughs and to generalise exhaust from steam/diesel engines and exhaust from industries and houses
19:57:32 <nielsm> (e.g. power station chimney, toyland bubble generator)
19:58:48 <andythenorth> imagine the fps then :)
19:58:55 <andythenorth> I would have maybe 5fps, instead of 15
19:58:57 <nielsm> what if I don't want to?
20:04:44 <frosch123> firs still getting forked in 100 years?
20:07:58 <frosch123> snowplough may be a bit of a gamble
20:08:06 <frosch123> either noone understands the concept
20:08:14 <frosch123> or everything is covered with snow
20:09:23 <frosch123> add a grf parameter "gulf stream"?
20:09:52 <nielsm> need to add a new landscape array to indicate snow level on a tile
20:12:11 * andythenorth considers variable speed limit railtypes :P
20:12:24 <andythenorth> with a count of the train types recently using them :P
20:13:16 <frosch123> ask eddi to design a fsm for the rail/snowplough interaction
20:18:40 <andythenorth> did I patch the town rating yet?
20:19:29 <frosch123> did you make a teaser screenshot of the setting for the forums yet?
20:19:47 <frosch123> or did you quit forums?
20:21:49 <andythenorth> I did read an old thread that reminded me why I quite sometimes :P
20:22:05 <andythenorth> it's nice that we tolerate such bad behaviour in the official forum :)
20:24:56 <andythenorth> forum so official that most devs won't post or read it :P
20:25:32 <frosch123> the official twitter also says "noone reads this"
20:26:17 <frosch123> for some reason that even seemed to work
20:26:38 <frosch123> there were a lot less replies to tweets after adding that
20:27:59 <andythenorth> so will JGR-only grfs be able to use Bananas?
20:28:39 <frosch123> bananas2 was meant to support ottd forks
20:28:52 <andythenorth> your English many days would pass for English English
20:29:07 <andythenorth> often better than mine :P
20:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> in my experience, native english speakers tend to have the worst english across all people in a location
20:29:38 <frosch123> i quit english in school as early as possible
20:30:12 <frosch123> at some point english lessons turned into literature
20:30:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i was always "good" in english at school, but i haven't actually learned anything until i started actually using it after i was out of school
20:31:01 <frosch123> i kind of fell asleep during tests about stuff like "west side story" and used 3 different spellings for "america"
20:31:24 <andythenorth> either (1) English is incredibly flexible and native speakers can interpret the gaps
20:31:44 <andythenorth> or (2) native English speakers miscommunicate constantly, which might explain the incredible levels of suppressed rage in England
20:33:04 <frosch123> i only understood the reddit post above, when i noticed the german sentence layout and then translated it back literally
20:34:23 <frosch123> sadly there are no simutrans pros on the ottd reddit
20:37:53 <andythenorth> but it looks like Reddit have switched to JGR
20:38:12 <andythenorth> at what point can we just close all the OpenTTD PRs? :)
20:40:00 <frosch123> there is also "archive project", it's just one click
20:41:34 <LordAro> arbitrary reminder to andythenorth that reddit, or indeed anything on social media, is not a representarive sample of OTTD usage
20:42:59 <andythenorth> but at some point
20:43:00 <nielsm> I guess there isn't really any usage stats collection of ottd, the closest might be any client stats the master server might collect and I'm not sure it collects anything?
20:43:06 <andythenorth> everybody will have switched anyway :)
20:43:14 <LordAro> nielsm: download stats, probably
20:43:24 <andythenorth> social media also doesn't tell you that everybody *has* switched
20:43:44 <andythenorth> anyway, it will happen
20:43:57 <andythenorth> TTDP -> OpenTTD - > JGR-PP
20:44:20 <LordAro> you have a weird view of things
20:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no data to back up that claim
20:44:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: i don't consider that bad
20:45:38 <frosch123> jgr is quite skilled when it comes to compatibility
20:46:01 <frosch123> jgrpp savegame compatibility handling is way more advanced than ottd
20:46:44 <LordAro> someone should work out how to backport that at some point
20:47:21 <andythenorth> I think it's fine
20:47:35 <nielsm> yeah it could also make porting savegames between experimental feature branches and later versions with that feature merged possible
20:47:41 <andythenorth> it's really common that people who are being over-run by a new thing don't realise it
20:47:49 <andythenorth> until they look around and realise their thing is dead
20:48:12 <frosch123> yep, recently i had a job interview like that :p
20:48:24 <andythenorth> mercurial -> git
20:48:40 <andythenorth> Perl -> PHP -> Python
20:48:59 <andythenorth> macOS -> inertia :P
20:49:16 <andythenorth> frosch123 people have jobs? :o
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20:51:26 <frosch123> 33% of people have jobs
20:51:48 <frosch123> weirdly low actually
20:51:53 <andythenorth> based on social media stats?
20:52:14 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i've seen projections that'll drop to about 20% in the medium future
20:52:33 <frosch123> based on social insurance stats
20:52:54 <andythenorth> how many are snowplough drivers?
20:53:29 <frosch123> truck or train based?
20:54:19 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ai panic?
20:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i wouldn't call it "panic" just yet
20:55:57 <andythenorth> someone has to feed the AI
20:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but we'll see advances like that in the transportation sector (like, truck drivers, taxi drivers, etc.) in the next 10-20 years
20:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yeah, but 4% of people work on feeding humans nowadays, whereas it was more like 75% 200 years ago
20:58:30 <andythenorth> I sometimes wonder what the most AI-proof job is
20:59:05 <frosch123> jobs that ducks cannot handle
20:59:41 <frosch123> i like to compare current AIs with 100000 year old ducks :)
21:00:29 <frosch123> they are good at repetitive stuff, but fail when something is slightly off the track
21:00:43 <frosch123> the recent starcraft games were an hillarious example of that
21:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> they are good at repetitive stuff, but fail when something is slightly off the track <-- i've worked with people like that
21:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> thing is, in my line of work, there's always something slightly off the track...
21:02:21 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, it doesn't count if the "slightly off the track" is caused by other humans :p
21:04:14 <andythenorth> how about plumbing?
21:04:19 <andythenorth> can boston dynamics do that yet?
21:04:22 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: when is anything ever not caused by other humans?
21:04:29 <frosch123> some people have said that some of the ai car accidents, where the humans were at fault, happened because humans expected the driver to behave like a human
21:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, when AIs too strictly follow the rules
21:06:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe work as food critic?
21:06:38 <andythenorth> nah that's just chemistry?
21:06:46 <andythenorth> or image analysis
21:07:36 <frosch123> at least there won't be time machines
21:07:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a friend who says he can spot undercover police cars, on account of them driving like no normal human would drive
21:07:55 <andythenorth> how accurate is he?
21:08:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: machines are terrible at chemistry, on account of how poor our sensors are compared to the human (or animal) nose
21:10:26 <frosch123> yeah, the most popular browser extenstion of the futrue will be the "nosmell" extension at blocks the odor-media-channel
21:12:07 <frosch123> it will be invented shortly after scam adds heavily focused on using that feature
21:23:06 <andythenorth> 20 bags of mail in a snowplough then?
21:23:34 <frosch123> refittable to beer?
21:24:21 <andythenorth> stupid things are fun to draw
21:24:27 <frosch123> silly grfs would probably make it a single vehicle with 4 pax, and not accept attaching wagons
21:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could technically use alcohol to unfreeze the snow
21:24:55 <frosch123> refittable to salt and sand?
21:25:23 <frosch123> unfortunately it's empty on arrival
21:27:25 <andythenorth> we never did implement cargo wastage
21:27:44 <frosch123> train robbery accident?
21:27:56 <frosch123> we never added more disasters :p
21:27:56 <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon reference :P
21:29:35 <andythenorth> variable cargo payment rate, cb on the vehicle
21:29:44 <andythenorth> but maybe it should be 'wastage' instead :P
21:29:51 <andythenorth> so passengers actually die in third class
21:29:56 <andythenorth> this is very poor taste
21:30:22 <andythenorth> but it would give a reason to have luxury / anti-luxury vehicles :P
21:30:42 <frosch123> reduce cargo by 1% when crossing low bridges?
21:34:20 <andythenorth> so many possibilities
21:34:27 <andythenorth> we have to stay ahead of JGR somehow no?
21:35:04 <frosch123> add a pay wall for the osx binary?
21:35:31 <andythenorth> I don't think we can justifiably charge for it :P
21:35:38 <andythenorth> paywall for playable FPS? :)
21:49:40 <frosch123> i think factorio is also on their 3rd or 4th osx dev
21:50:59 <frosch123> also, should we visit V's talk at some gamedev conference and ask troll questions about yetis?
21:51:34 <andythenorth> it has an appeal
21:54:14 <frosch123> hmm, 1000 visitors... it's kind of bigger than i though
22:01:20 <andythenorth> hmm nobody ever looks like I expect :
22:01:50 <frosch123> not sluggish enough?
22:02:58 <frosch123> the factorio party 2 years ago was kind of funny
22:03:24 <frosch123> most factorio employees are progammers and introverts
22:03:39 <frosch123> V was the only extrovert, and kind of ran the show :p
22:04:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: i know, you had some encounters with copy machines
22:07:52 <frosch123> i also remember some guillotine swinging from the ceiling
22:09:13 <frosch123> hmm, kind of similar to asdf movies. standard brittish?
22:14:28 <andythenorth> not sure where asdf is from
22:15:05 <frosch123> he is brittish, i saw a live talk last year (not live)
22:15:29 <frosch123> he doodled some sketches at some brittish convention
22:16:25 <frosch123> can you locate people by accent?
22:16:59 <andythenorth> if it's an obvious accent
22:21:36 <frosch123> new disaster: protesters blocking the track
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22:25:35 <andythenorth> maybe if electricity did something...
22:33:06 <andythenorth> how many snowplough generations? :P
22:33:13 <andythenorth> seems like 1 might be adequate :P
22:33:18 <andythenorth> possibly even too many
22:34:25 <FLHerne> andythenorth: FWIW, as an intermittent reddit/openttd person, you're wrong
22:35:27 <FLHerne> r/openttd runs three servers - S1/S3 are stable upstream with/without grfs, S2 is patchpack
22:35:45 <FLHerne> It used to be a custom, Reddit-specific patchpack
22:36:39 <FLHerne> But no-one was maintaining it, so now it's JGRPP
22:36:47 <frosch123> no reddit client anymore?
22:37:02 <FLHerne> By far the busiest server is still S1, the upstream 1.9.3 one
22:38:00 <FLHerne> Oh, hang on, it still is the custom client
22:38:09 <FLHerne> So now I just have no idea what you meant...
22:39:11 <andythenorth> I read the subreddit
22:39:12 <FLHerne> Posts by individual users?
22:39:15 <andythenorth> I don't use the servers
22:39:30 <andythenorth> JGR is at tipping point
22:39:35 <andythenorth> forums are already switched
22:39:39 <andythenorth> reddit is switching
22:39:40 <FLHerne> I don't think JGRPP has dramatically increased the actual share of patchpack usage, just unified it
22:40:10 <FLHerne> There used to be ChillCore's, SpringPP and a whole bunch of smaller ones
22:40:56 <FLHerne> But JGR's is the first one to be unambiguously superior to any other available :P
22:41:06 <FLHerne> SpringPP savegame compat helps to
22:41:35 <FLHerne> Remember, the people who bother posting on forums are the hardcore obsessive lot
22:42:35 <FLHerne> By that logic, car manufacturers might as well give up making econoboxes, because everyone on r/cars is driving hot hatches and 2-seaters
22:43:38 <andythenorth> it's about discovery and recommendation
22:43:45 <andythenorth> the prevailing recommendation is now JGRPP
22:44:00 <andythenorth> and all posts in the public channels reinforce that
22:44:14 <andythenorth> players get what they want
22:44:45 <FLHerne> When trunk didn't have cargodist, that was the ubiquitous recommendation
22:46:02 <FLHerne> There's no /point/ recommending upstream, because everyone knows it's there
22:46:35 <FLHerne> I'm a fan of JGRPP too, I have some big savegames using it
22:47:59 <andythenorth> I don't recall a period where most of forum activity was a PP thread
22:48:04 <andythenorth> whereas JGR is most of forum now
22:48:17 <andythenorth> I've been around since....what 2008?
22:50:40 <FLHerne> I think my first OTTD version was 0.6.3, whenever that was
22:51:22 <FLHerne> 2008, but this was on Debian, so probably a year later :P
22:53:17 <FLHerne> Hm, forum account is 2011, but I think I must have been reading it anonymously before that
22:53:54 <andythenorth> anyway, JGR is a useful safety valve for ever more detailed and broken timetable patches
22:53:58 <FLHerne> > I'm planning to run OTTD on my PowerBook 1400, it's compiling at the moment. The problem is that with only 64MB of RAM and a 133MHz CPU, performance is likely to be an issue.
22:54:06 <FLHerne> Haha, I'd forgotten that
22:54:11 <FLHerne> It actually worked, too!
22:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "<frosch123> can you locate people by accent?" <-- i think that was the plot of My Fair Lady :p
22:54:26 <andythenorth> also has anyone tried daylength in JGR?
22:54:36 <andythenorth> I'm curious what it looks like with the trains moving really slowly?
22:55:04 <FLHerne> (on Debian Etch with an extremely unstable custom kernel, with a 'bootloader' that worked by booting MacOS and then overwriting the OS's memory...)
22:55:14 <frosch123> i am quite sure the trains do not change their speed
22:55:24 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It doesn't work that way
22:56:18 <FLHerne> Motion per tick is unchanged, ticks per day change
22:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no daylength patch ever slowed down trains
22:57:15 <FLHerne> I /think/ JGR has the version where town-cargo production is kept constant per-tick rather than being scaled with daylength
22:59:48 <FLHerne> (yes, and it has a separate setting for that)
22:59:50 <andythenorth> I think I misunderstood something in a thread
23:05:00 <andythenorth> so why don't we merge it?
23:05:46 <frosch123> for the same reasons why ottd cannot fix the conversion between mph and km/h
23:06:13 <frosch123> daylenth changes the conversion between stuff/tick and stuff/day
23:06:22 <frosch123> and you never know what newgrf intended
23:07:04 <frosch123> FLHerne said there is a setting in jgrpp, to change how the built-in stuff scales
23:07:18 <frosch123> maybe newgrf can read that
23:07:51 <FLHerne> frosch123: There's a separate multiplier for town-cargo generation
23:08:04 <frosch123> what about industry generation?
23:08:08 <FLHerne> I'm not sure how it deals with newgrf industry production
23:08:28 <andythenorth> it seems that we need to accomodate it in grf
23:08:39 <FLHerne> I think the rate per tick is the same, and the "<n> per month" thing is just wrong
23:08:43 <andythenorth> can we not just scale the production?
23:08:49 <frosch123> andythenorth: let's say, i am quite sure ecs hard conflicts with daylength :)
23:09:18 <frosch123> though for firs: i would expect the supply cargo mechanics should be off
23:09:32 <andythenorth> oh yeah, supplies will be broken fairly certain
23:09:38 <andythenorth> but just add another parameter for that?
23:09:41 <andythenorth> let player configure all?
23:09:52 <andythenorth> maybe we just turn newgrf developer tools on by default?
23:10:09 <andythenorth> how about a game setting for how many times production cb runs per month?
23:10:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: that post says it all
23:10:30 <andythenorth> it just works, as long as the newgrf is rewritten
23:10:34 <frosch123> there are several known issues, but they do not matter to those who use daylength
23:10:43 <andythenorth> and the major benefit of daylength is that it reduces cargo production
23:10:49 <andythenorth> except when it isn't
23:10:57 <andythenorth> I read a thread about it :P
23:11:09 <andythenorth> "what's daylength for" cannot resolve to a single answer
23:11:27 <andythenorth> scaling production is the exact opposite of what some players want
23:11:35 <andythenorth> they're using daylength to cut down transport amounts
23:11:55 <andythenorth> all of this bothers me somehow
23:12:05 <andythenorth> I don't see the lolz in it :D
23:12:24 <frosch123> why do you care? do you get firs-reports with jgrpp savegames?
23:14:18 <frosch123> do you get bug reports with savegames at all?
23:14:53 <frosch123> anyway, you can't solve firs with adding some multipliers
23:15:25 <frosch123> a month is still longer with daylength
23:15:28 <andythenorth> the main problem I have is that there's nothing to design against
23:15:44 <frosch123> techncially supplies work in ticks, but the wording is so hard in that case
23:15:49 <andythenorth> with daylength should supplies be needed more often, or less?
23:15:57 <andythenorth> it's completely puzzling what the point of the game is
23:16:33 <frosch123> with daylength you would require supplies more often, no whole months but every odd number of days
23:16:58 <andythenorth> but if the goal is to transport less frequently?
23:17:07 <frosch123> essentially you need to replace std::system_clock with std::steady_clock :p
23:17:38 <frosch123> andythenorth: then make the wagons bigger/trains longer?
23:17:47 <andythenorth> no the players want smaller ones
23:17:49 <andythenorth> I wonder if pikka's solution will be enough to fix the issue
23:17:58 <frosch123> the goal of daylength is time progression not cargo scaling
23:18:21 <frosch123> well, i would file those players under abusing daylength
23:18:42 <frosch123> they use every observable behaviour of daylength, not the indended one
23:18:46 <andythenorth> this is what puzzles me
23:18:53 <andythenorth> why don't they just make newgrfs?
23:19:00 <andythenorth> maybe I am being dense :P
23:19:30 <andythenorth> can GS reset the year? :P
23:20:04 <frosch123> let them figure it out themself :) yet another firs fork, forking from the generated nml
23:20:10 * andythenorth ponders a GS that just resets the date every other cycle
23:20:40 <andythenorth> well putting aside my confusion, I do actually want to put intro date scaling into my vehicle grfs
23:20:56 <andythenorth> but the desires of players are so murky that I can't figure out the design
23:21:08 <andythenorth> and Eddi|zuHause said I shouldn't, and we should implement daylength properly :P
23:21:15 <frosch123> one parameter per generation?
23:21:38 <andythenorth> hmm, but I have rosters, with different base generations
23:21:44 <frosch123> i think i made something similar with V
23:21:58 <andythenorth> I could fork the grf for each roster
23:22:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think daylength is almost universally for 'realism'
23:22:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: the idea was to set date for "steam age", "diesel age", "electric age"
23:22:20 <FLHerne> So in-grf intro scaling doesn't help
23:22:27 <frosch123> and lineary scale all intro dates inbetween
23:22:38 <FLHerne> The cargo-production side-effect was mostly a happy accident, I think
23:22:55 <frosch123> so the realtive introduction of the rosters would still be the same
23:23:02 <andythenorth> the answers are non-conclusive
23:23:07 <FLHerne> And at the current version mostly avoids doing it in favour of creating different bugs :P
23:23:08 <frosch123> just some engines are top-notch for 50 years instead of 20
23:24:31 <andythenorth> maybe Horse should be split up
23:27:04 <andythenorth> then it could scale the intro dates
23:27:20 <andythenorth> or I could just do a single multiplier property, that might work
23:27:28 <andythenorth> I could call it daylength? o_O
23:31:31 <frosch123> good idea, just add a setting "daylength" to all your grfs
23:31:40 <frosch123> and add some random behaviour to it
23:32:51 <andythenorth> randomised model expiry? o_O
23:33:06 <andythenorth> maybe bits of the tech tree are missing?
23:33:23 <andythenorth> randomised reliability decay?
23:33:35 <andythenorth> does reliability even work with daylength?
23:34:17 <frosch123> depends what people expect :)
23:36:55 * andythenorth wonders what would happen if we just did sandbox mode
23:37:01 <andythenorth> and hid the clock
23:37:13 *** Wormnest_ has joined #openttd
23:38:32 <andythenorth> actually I think that's what bothers me
23:39:24 <andythenorth> sometimes non-existent sandbox mode tries to poke out
23:39:44 <andythenorth> and then it runs up against the creaky gameplay 'balance'
23:39:55 <andythenorth> maybe there should just be timeless sandbox
23:40:36 <andythenorth> town restrictions off, vehicles all on never expire, game date set to max and hidden
23:41:21 <andythenorth> it's an idea though
23:41:51 <andythenorth> I remember what frosch123 said about random useless newgrf ideas, that sometimes become a pattern, that can become an actual spec
23:42:32 <nielsm> well, late and stuff, gnight
23:43:37 <frosch123> hmm, belugas heard nin as well... i never heard about them outside this channel
23:45:13 <andythenorth> I probably lived in a bubble where everyone liked NIN :)
23:45:20 <andythenorth> and the Aphex Twin
23:45:34 <andythenorth> Sandbox mode for OpenTTD 2.0 then :P
23:52:33 <frosch123> so a 10 year old video suddently becomes viral?
23:53:19 <frosch123> on a channel that has not been active for 9 years
23:54:29 <frosch123> probably russian hackers
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