IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-10-30
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09:55:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JezUU
09:57:18 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JezUT
09:58:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JezUk
10:00:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JezU3
10:01:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JezUG
11:30:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JezkU
11:31:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JezkT
11:44:09 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/Jezkc
11:44:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JezkC
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12:09:36 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what link validator tool did we use for OpenTTD website? I can't remember :(
12:09:54 <andythenorth> I run one locally, it's a mac-specific tool
12:10:03 <andythenorth> there are other options
12:10:08 <TrueBrain> what is yours called?
12:10:15 <TrueBrain> I remember I used one, just don't remember which :D
12:10:25 <andythenorth> Integrity is mine
12:10:55 <andythenorth> Total Validator can do it
12:13:46 <peter1138> Did the build-pipeline stuff ever stop randomly working again?
12:14:06 <peter1138> I used to have a page auto-reloading to keep it all alive, but that stopped a few months ago... after a reboot, heh.
12:17:25 <peter1138> Hmm, 23,500 km on my road bike.
12:19:33 <peter1138> Oof, 3200 km on the chain I put on in September.
12:19:41 <peter1138> Time to order a new one.
12:20:05 <LordAro> i need (another) new brake caliper
12:33:16 <LordAro> bike of theseus, at this point
12:33:38 <LordAro> crank, shifters & back wheel are the only original things left
12:45:55 <peter1138> I need to sort out my headset, it's a bit crunchy.
13:31:11 <supermop_elsewhere> i wonder why chuck yeager never got to go to space
13:32:31 <supermop_elsewhere> like even just as a publicity thing
13:38:05 <peter1138> Dunno, but Chuck Yeager's Air Combat was something I used to play a lot of.
13:40:13 <peter1138> It was somewhat better than Aviator on the BBC.
13:40:34 <peter1138> ISTR playing Chuck Yeager's Advanced Flight Trainer too. Hmm.
13:43:07 <peter1138> Not quite MSFS 2020 level.
13:49:49 <supermop_elsewhere> i guess he is still around, might still get a chance
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15:00:14 <andythenorth> I haven't seen the (more famous) film based on it
15:21:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JeEde
15:21:44 <peter1138> I had a salad. Surprise!
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15:29:19 <andythenorth> so which of these 3 follows our markdown rules?
15:33:39 <andythenorth> so each clause is a sentence, each sentence gets a newline
15:33:45 <andythenorth> paragraphs have an additional newline
15:37:11 <andythenorth> is it wanted to reformat all of the README?
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15:40:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/Jezqi
15:44:58 <LordAro> andythenorth: i think you're well beyond that point :p
15:48:19 <andythenorth> well to put it differently: it's pretty inconsistent, should I fix it?
15:48:28 <andythenorth> I don't want to, but eh :P
16:05:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JezmZ
16:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: +1 for global style-fix, but it should be a separate commit
16:07:37 <andythenorth> I hoped you'd say that
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16:09:13 <andythenorth> and the community contributions to wiki in last 10 years have not produced much of use
16:09:46 <andythenorth> there might be issues / bug reports where people have had problems
16:09:54 <andythenorth> obviously installing on a mac is now broken
16:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't help you right now
16:15:18 <TrueBrain> LordAro: possibly for beta1 you want to simply remove buster support .. and see if someone is knowledgable enough to update the deb-files to support buster again :)
16:20:04 * andythenorth needs more lunch
16:21:13 <nnyby> what is the debian buster problem?
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17:17:43 <LordAro> TrueBrain: give me a sec, doesn't look too difficult to resolve
17:18:37 <TrueBrain> take all the time you need; I am in no rush :D
17:33:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #7811: Change: [Pipelines] Remove jessie builds from release pipeline https://git.io/JeuPR
17:33:54 <LordAro> TrueBrain: that should be enough, i think
17:34:17 <TrueBrain> The error is: "##[error]dh: Compatibility levels before 9 are deprecated (level 7 in use)"
17:34:19 <TrueBrain> are you sure this is enough?
17:34:23 <LordAro> that's just a warning
17:34:31 <LordAro> it's something that should be fixed, but i don't think it's urgent
17:34:45 <LordAro> (and is *probably* just a case of changing a '7' to a '9')
17:34:45 <TrueBrain> a warning that reads "error" :D
17:35:04 <TrueBrain> let me run a test-build
17:43:04 <TrueBrain> seems to be building LordAro; does need testing I guess to make sure it is functional, but there should be artifacts when this is done building :D
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18:03:06 <TrueBrain> please test them :)
18:03:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #7811: Change: [Pipelines] Remove jessie builds from release pipeline https://git.io/Jez37
18:04:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7811: Change: [Pipelines] Remove jessie builds from release pipeline https://git.io/Jez35
18:04:27 <TrueBrain> LordAro: and personally I would switch your commits around
18:04:30 <TrueBrain> (the order of the two)
18:04:33 <LordAro> i do not have a buster machine to test them with :>
18:04:43 <TrueBrain> bribe someone who does?
18:18:16 <Heiki> TrueBrain: the amd64 version installs and works nicely here (although I’m on testing rather than buster)
18:27:37 <TrueBrain> I love these kind of contributions; tnx a bunch Heiki! Merge away LordAro!
18:28:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7811: Change: [Pipelines] Remove jessie builds from release pipeline https://git.io/JeuPR
18:28:32 <LordAro> oh, you wanted me to reorder commits
18:30:55 <LordAro> any further thoughts on ^ ?
18:40:29 <andythenorth> want an approval?
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18:55:56 <LordAro> we're probably going to want to actually get nogs/noai docs updating with releases as well
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19:06:34 <TrueBrain> Based on tags .. hmm
19:06:41 <TrueBrain> Just need a place to publish
19:07:08 <TrueBrain> Called Azure today what they could do for us .. they are going to call back
19:07:26 <TrueBrain> Their infra makes these things even easier
19:10:50 * LordAro waits for testing to appear on the website
19:18:28 <TrueBrain> I love the automation at work :D
19:19:01 <LordAro> "Unknown Filetype" for buster debs...
19:21:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro opened pull request #110: Fix: Add buster debs to file description list https://git.io/JezG7
19:31:49 <TrueBrain> So many small things :p
19:45:48 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:48:08 <planetmaker> he, new release schedule?
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19:51:10 <LordAro> planetmaker: that's the idea
19:51:16 <LordAro> depends whether we can stick to it :p
19:51:53 <planetmaker> what cadence is the idea?
19:52:40 <andythenorth> as long as we have enough core reviewers, we're good
19:52:53 <andythenorth> we're not short of contributions that look ok
19:53:12 <LordAro> twice a year might be pushing it, but probably <1 year
19:53:25 <andythenorth> how onerous is a release?
19:53:37 * planetmaker looks up the meaning of onerous
19:53:41 <andythenorth> at work we cut release time from 5 days to 0.5 days
19:53:49 <andythenorth> although it's still 1 week to write docs and tell customers :)
19:54:33 <planetmaker> hm, dunno for current setup. Previously it used to be ... about one longer evening
19:55:00 <planetmaker> depended also on whether it was just a bug-fix release. Or starting a new branch
19:56:18 <planetmaker> though.. probably we don't want that
19:56:38 <LordAro> they can, but yeah, don't want that
19:57:04 <andythenorth> hmmm, I guess with trivial .z releases it's > 2 year
19:57:16 <andythenorth> how about we do a major? :D
19:57:56 <planetmaker> should meanwhile be not really much more than .z releases. Creating a branch is easier now. And ... the amount of work needed is not much more
19:58:07 <planetmaker> Like upping newgrf version or so
19:58:21 <planetmaker> anyway... who made this release? He should know :P
19:59:30 <andythenorth> fewer, smaller releases has upsides
19:59:52 <andythenorth> we're pretty much in care + maintenance mode on most PRs
20:00:10 <andythenorth> that's not a negative btw :)
20:00:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain approved pull request #110: Fix: Add buster debs to file description list https://git.io/JeznI
20:00:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro merged pull request #110: Fix: Add buster debs to file description list https://git.io/JezG7
20:02:39 <planetmaker> I agree. It is not a negative. And... numbers are cheap :P
20:07:09 <TrueBrain> LordAro: don't forget to tag to bring that fix live :)
20:17:50 <LordAro> i feel like this might be a known issue
20:18:11 <TrueBrain> I always like that people assume it is a known issue :) If it was, there should be a ticket silly :P
20:18:14 <TrueBrain> no, I never seen it empty
20:19:44 <TrueBrain> I am GUESSING it is because it is the first 2 digit release
20:20:05 <TrueBrain> I would think more shit will break, because I am sure nobody considered that an option till now
20:20:39 <LordAro> you wrote that one :p
20:20:55 <TrueBrain> you might be wrong there ;)
20:20:58 <planetmaker> oh my :) lovely :D
20:21:11 <TrueBrain> so no, I did not write this :)
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20:24:55 <LordAro> TrueBrain: any chance i can convince you to shove the correct snippet onto the server?
20:26:28 <TrueBrain> if you have it somewhere for me, sure
20:27:50 <TrueBrain> just please also fix the script soon-ish :)
20:29:00 <LordAro> how's that for soonish?
20:30:03 <TrueBrain> I dont get the changelog.txt change itself :(
20:30:16 <LordAro> it was actually added in 1.9
20:30:26 <TrueBrain> does the script work with your PR?
20:30:41 <TrueBrain> (changelog.txt for beta1 updated btw)
20:46:40 <andythenorth> so what was I supposed to be doing?
20:46:55 <andythenorth> - finish README update
20:47:05 <andythenorth> - ...update website words? o_O
21:01:13 <LordAro> at least one of eddi's comments still needs addressing (one line paragraphs)
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21:11:52 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JeEde
21:14:26 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JeEde
21:14:48 <andythenorth> "We'll also do our best to maintain compatibility with old savegames, except where it becomes impractical."
21:15:04 <andythenorth> eddi suggested that's not valid
21:15:14 <andythenorth> I don't know what the policy is, so eh
21:20:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JeEde
21:20:42 <glx> usually savegame compatibility is mandatory, but sometimes intermediate save/load is required
21:21:44 <andythenorth> So "We guaranteee to maintain savegame compatibility." ??
21:21:47 <LordAro> i mean, just because there are some saves that fail to load, doesn't mean that's not an issue
21:21:53 <LordAro> there's a reason that issue is still open
21:22:09 <andythenorth> well if I read it correctly, most of the James103 saves are invalid
21:22:35 <andythenorth> someone (niels maybe) points out that savgame compatibility != fixing corruption
21:22:50 <andythenorth> and savegame compatibility != savegames will never be corrupted
21:23:09 <LordAro> but it is tricky to work out which savegames are corrupted, versus where the saveload code is broken
21:23:20 <LordAro> and regardless, it shouldn't crash the game
21:23:38 <andythenorth> "We guarantee that every revision of OpenTTD will be able to load savegames from every older revision." ???
21:23:57 <andythenorth> Yes but I already wrote that
21:24:10 <andythenorth> EIther it's guarantee, or best efforts
21:24:24 <andythenorth> If it's a guarantee, we have to guarantee it
21:24:31 <LordAro> corruption -> display error message, everything else -> load it
21:24:36 <glx> in theory all old saves should load, but maybe not directly in the current version
21:24:43 <LordAro> if something deviates from that, it's a bug
21:25:24 <glx> especially when the data storage has been modified multiple times in between
21:26:14 <LordAro> i'd still suggest that's a bug rather than "desired behaviour"
21:26:33 <glx> good example is the intro game in master, it's very old and still loads fine
21:28:39 <glx> the best solution would be to have a savegame for all versions
21:29:12 <glx> and try each one every time savegame version is increased
21:29:16 <LordAro> at least every ~25 versions or so, maybe
21:29:23 <LordAro> every version is probably excessive
21:29:46 <glx> yeah at least one per stable release
21:31:01 <glx> broken compatibility can happen between releases but usually they are fixed before the release
21:31:19 <andythenorth> automated testing :P
21:31:36 <andythenorth> state transfer, classic unit test case
21:31:49 <glx> the testing part is easy to do
21:32:03 <LordAro> it would be a good to get some automated testing
21:33:21 <glx> I guess a save should be created in very old release, then loaded/saved with the next release, and so on
21:34:07 <glx> that way an AI/GS could run some checks on the game data
21:34:43 <andythenorth> providing enough coverage would be a bit of an investment
21:34:50 * andythenorth wonders if James103 can write tests :P
21:35:07 <LordAro> glx: isn't there an "upgraded to" vs "created with" issue?
21:35:12 <andythenorth> every PR he puts in reminds me of some QA people I've worked with
21:37:35 <glx> #964 is a broken save for example
21:37:58 <LordAro> shouldn't crash though
21:38:23 <glx> but it's hard to detect that on load
21:39:19 <LordAro> hard != impossible :p
21:41:54 <andythenorth> so what's the 1-line explanation in readme then? :)
21:42:14 <LordAro> i'd go with "guarantee"
21:42:31 <LordAro> possibly with an extra "please report a bug if you find a save that doesn't load"
21:42:45 <LordAro> (or crashes the game)
22:00:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JeEde
22:01:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7807: Doc: revised README to be more helpful to casual GitHub visitors https://git.io/JeEde
22:02:05 <andythenorth> but I have no inspiration for what should be there
22:02:26 <andythenorth> README is not the manual
22:07:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BlackPlague666 commented on issue #7767: Large numbers of trains and signals cause low FPS https://git.io/Je8mF
22:10:15 <LordAro> i assume weird broken graphics driver
22:10:34 <glx> maybe he's using 8bpp blitter
22:11:06 <andythenorth> even my laptop runs better than that
22:11:40 <andythenorth> all drawing combined is < 1ms for me
22:11:56 <glx> yeah even in debug and slow GL rate, my drawing is correct
22:13:25 <glx> and GUI stuff is threaded IIRC
22:15:31 <glx> but "doesn't respond" means the delay between input handling is too long, and I don't really see how it's possible
22:19:49 <glx> hmm and it seems it happens only for network games if I read correctly
22:20:07 <andythenorth> I don't see a save?
22:20:53 <glx> "That's exactly the strange thing. While in singeplayer 800 trains is a bit laggy but playable. In a multiplayer game there were less trains but unplayable."
22:21:56 <LordAro> sounds like various hardware issues on top of another
22:22:05 <LordAro> regardless, need a save
22:44:33 <andythenorth> so website shipped :)
22:44:47 <andythenorth> I'll tell the screenshot contributors
22:51:24 <andythenorth> 1.10.0-beta1 post anyone?
22:51:40 <LordAro> eh, there's one on reddit already
22:55:58 <LordAro> that was my first forum post since January
22:56:06 <LordAro> (which was my first post since 2017)
22:56:13 <LordAro> (which was my first post since 2015)
22:58:44 <andythenorth> I don't have an r acccount
22:59:00 * andythenorth wonders if there's any contributors lurking in r
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23:00:11 <LordAro> hmm, topic out of date
23:00:13 <DorpsGek> LordAro: I don't recognize you.
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23:10:52 <TrueBrain> at least that allows you to fix your itch :D
23:12:02 <DorpsGek> LordAro: I don't recognize you.
23:14:41 *** LordAro changes topic to "1.10.0-beta1, 1.9.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (source: github, translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only"
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23:40:45 <_dp_> why are virtual destructors unnecessary there?
23:41:38 <_dp_> isn't it a good practice to always declare virtual destructor for a class with virtual functions?
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23:47:47 <LordAro> _dp_: empty virtual destructors are always unnecessary?
23:49:08 <_dp_> LordAro, even if it's empty there is still some cleanup generated by compiler
23:50:02 <LordAro> peter1138: any ideas why you did that? :p
23:50:16 <_dp_> LordAro, and if there is no destructor it will not properly cleanup if deleted by base pointer
23:51:02 <LordAro> `= default` would be better in "modern C++", but yeah, the internet definitely seems to suggest it's necessary
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