IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-10-16
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00:50:07 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... game crashed
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03:29:17 <supermop_pdx> is there like an opposite of voronoi?
03:31:34 <supermop_pdx> where the lines go through the points?
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04:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_elsewhere: yes, delaunay triangulation
04:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> (you get the delaunay triangulation by drawing the perpendiculars to the voronoi partition, and vice versa)
04:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (so long as you are in a space which satisfies the parallelogram equation, otherwise there exists no delaunay triangulation)
04:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause> (for 2-d that means euclidean distance)
05:14:59 <supermop_elsewhere> making 'buildings' at random points with a shape of their voronoi cell looks ok but not totally natural
05:16:00 <supermop_elsewhere> because plots of land are often shaped by paths between points of interest rather than zones around points
05:16:19 <supermop_elsewhere> i keep getting weird shogi piece shapes
05:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> no clue what you're talking about
05:17:40 <supermop_elsewhere> me neither
05:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so what's the problem?
05:25:14 <Eddi|zuHause> still no clue what a shogi piece is meant to be
05:27:10 <supermop_elsewhere> polygons that are too exagerated along one direction i guess
05:29:31 <supermop_elsewhere> i guess trying to make a cluster of shapes based on voronoi cells will never look that natural as a 'city' because there is no connection for circulation
05:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> no, cities are not usually growing as voronoi cells, but if you zoom out one layer, and consider villages growing into cities, that may result in vaguely voronoi-y cells
05:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause> then you're not on building level, but on city quarter level
05:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can start with voronoi cells, fill each with some kind of road grid or something, and then fill in the buildings
05:38:09 <supermop_elsewhere> tokyo is kind of voronoi-y as it formed that way
05:38:43 <supermop_elsewhere> the big avenues have the structure of cell borders between cells/villages
05:39:04 <supermop_elsewhere> but inside each cell is more fractal like growth
05:40:40 <supermop_elsewhere> here in new york the borders between the boroughs are too strongly based instead on existing geography
05:41:18 <supermop_elsewhere> and within each borough the borders between neighborhoods too arbitrary at points on the grid
05:41:42 <supermop_elsewhere> i don't knoe how most german cities grew though
05:44:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the usual pattern of city growth in europe is that you have this medieval core with usually a large market place and narrow roads, then there's some kind of ring road where the city wall was, and the post-industrial growth areas which were added step by step, often replacing surrounding villages. and then the post-industrial growth, which is usually incorporating more villages, and filling the space inbetween with suburb-y structures
05:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> err, first "post-" should be omitted
05:45:22 <supermop_elsewhere> do the villages grow outward until they meet the edge of the city and are absorbed? or does the city outpace them and envelope them?
05:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause> in the industrial area, the city outpaces them, later, they get absorbed politically, and then start growing
05:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> brain is a bit wonky it seems :p
05:48:47 <supermop_elsewhere> well it is pretty late in germany
05:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> in east germany it's even weirder, with the suburbanisation movement being overlapped by migration into the west
06:05:05 <supermop_elsewhere> well i'm going to bed no
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09:11:40 <andythenorth> ouch, this is like an object lesson in missing the point :|
09:19:00 <andythenorth> oof I think I have to join reddit :(
09:19:10 <andythenorth> it has won, tt-forums has lost
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09:54:42 <crem> I don't understand reddit. It somehow doesn't have a sequence in which I should read stuff.
09:56:44 <andythenorth> I think you're supposed to keep refreshing or something
09:56:51 <andythenorth> probably drives ad views
09:59:39 <LordAro> crem: replies are nested under the parent
09:59:43 <LordAro> other than that, any order
09:59:53 <LordAro> it's default sorted by number of "votes"
10:01:33 <crem> Yes, but suppose I have 5 free minutes, so I read some threads in some subreddits. Then if I return 2 hours later, I don't know what to do. Should I go a reread the same threads looking for new comments? Should I look for new interesting threads among old ones?..
10:05:29 <planetmaker> he... yes, answers are totally on a tangent :) Who is funny_filth?
10:07:47 <LordAro> crem: in general, i never go back to threads i've already read once :p
10:08:08 <LordAro> (unless i get a reply to something)
10:09:04 <LordAro> planetmaker: someone who knows andythenorth well enough to know where his twitter is...
10:13:01 <planetmaker> @crem: you probably should click "sort by ... newest"
10:13:17 <planetmaker> (changing away from the default "sort by best". whatever that means
10:14:13 <crem> I don't want newest, I want best among unread. :) Anyway, I don't really read reddit, but I tried several times. I even installed app once!
10:14:44 <planetmaker> yeah... it's somewhat designed to keep you around. Not to help you get things done or read
10:21:13 <andythenorth> but it has nice screenshots
10:21:21 <andythenorth> which I want to add to OpenTTD site
10:21:23 <peter1138> andythenorth, what is kamnet going on about? Lol
10:21:31 <andythenorth> so I might have to join the damn thing
10:21:31 <andythenorth> crossed wires I think
10:21:40 <peter1138> I'm already on reddit.
10:21:45 <andythenorth> also reddit is where the action is
10:21:54 <andythenorth> forums are now jgr-pp-forums
10:22:04 <andythenorth> nothing to do with official OpenTTD any more
10:22:05 <crem> Hm, 512x512 maps feels a bit tight.. Probably I should switch to 1024x1024 next time.
10:22:35 <planetmaker> lol. 256x256 is the spirit ;)
10:22:42 <peter1138> 256x256 are too big for me.
10:22:50 <andythenorth> I tried 256x128 but my savegame broke so I can't screenshot it
10:22:58 <andythenorth> it was nice though
10:23:28 <peter1138> I'm gonna follow @andyfacts, he doesn't follow anyone else I follow. He'll get me out of my echo chamber!
10:24:19 <crem> Somehow I enjoy huge networks more than nicely tuned junctions etc.
10:24:30 <andythenorth> peter1138: I mostly don't use Twitter
10:24:41 <crem> My "junctions" are quite a shame to show..
10:24:42 <andythenorth> I did, but then I wanted to get things done
10:24:46 <peter1138> But at least I know your "real" online identity now ;p
10:24:57 <andythenorth> twitter is either fascism, or people whining about fascism
10:26:12 <andythenorth> 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8 will be missing :P
10:26:32 <andythenorth> I'm going to find a bunch of 1.9x screenshots and add them
10:28:08 <crem> Btw, does anyone have a good example of dense+diverse+detailed map to print as a poster? Where can I get a map which is shown behind openttd's main menu?
10:32:53 <planetmaker> hm, yeah, maybe FSFE is a good choice in starting to get advice
10:33:21 <andythenorth> well maybe TB is here this evening and we can agree which to approach
10:33:38 <planetmaker> what does o rud ge think?
10:33:38 <andythenorth> endless burocracy must be face
10:33:56 <planetmaker> he basically is our bureaucrat :D
10:34:01 <andythenorth> I will DM o rudge later and aask
10:34:11 <planetmaker> T B is our CTO :P
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10:38:51 <crem> Many people from FSF are in #gnu channel at freenode, they are quite responsive there. They also offer email support which is a bit less helpful (takes few weeks to respond, and every second sentence is "warning: this is not a legal advice", probably because of US laws).
10:39:15 <crem> But what exactly is the problem?
10:40:18 <peter1138> I mean, who said there's a problem?
10:40:50 <crem> What is the topic you want to contact FSF about?
10:42:25 <peter1138> Hmm, it was there originally.
10:43:07 <crem> Do you need to setup proper way to collect donations?. We at lczero project avoid doing that as hard as we can, but there is e.g. lichess which is FOSS and they have proper entity registered.
10:43:48 <peter1138> It's to do with having some entity to deal with these companies that don't want to deal with entity-less things.
10:44:22 <peter1138> The discussion started with Apple's new software notarizing stuff on Catalina.
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10:44:59 <peter1138> Hmm, should I use iSCSI or NFS?
10:49:20 <planetmaker> @crem, well... the problem is not how to collect donations. That works currently quite well (I think). More that you can say "it's really us, OpenTTD" as opposed to getting back "you are just one guy working on OpenTTD, what can you say?"
10:53:32 <peter1138> And it's not really a problem, it's just investigating ways and means.
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11:22:55 <LordAro> andythenorth: could add screenshots of the title games for 1.{5,6,7,8}
11:23:15 <andythenorth> if we want to retcon it
11:26:54 <andythenorth> I can approve a PR if someone does it :P
11:27:18 <andythenorth> I will trade that with finding a lot of nice 1.9x screenshots and captioning them
11:46:04 <crem> Can you guess version from screenshot? :) They all look the same.
12:03:15 <planetmaker> about every major version since 1.0 has a unique starting screen. Dev builds all have the same
12:44:54 <peter1138> Oh no, I just discovered alt-; on Windows :/
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14:01:49 <peter1138> Possibly salad time.
14:05:07 <peter1138> Macaroni cheese time?
14:05:45 <andythenorth> probably salad, including out of date lettuce
14:31:12 <peter1138> I have out-of-date crisps.
14:31:30 <peter1138> Like, 2018-12-29 ...
14:32:00 <planetmaker> that is... a bit. But it's crisps
14:32:18 <planetmaker> and it's a "best before" date, not a "explodes latest at"
14:33:16 <peter1138> Maybe I should try one, then write back and say I'm dissatisified...
14:33:36 <frosch123> my salt is labeled for 2016
14:33:49 <frosch123> i guess i do not cook with enough salt?
14:34:20 <peter1138> How does salt go off anyway? I suppose it could get soggy or otherwise contaminated.
14:34:28 <peter1138> (Also, low-sodium salt, why?)
14:34:33 <andythenorth> how does a preservative go out of date?
14:34:55 <andythenorth> my friend ended up in A&E due to low-sodium salt, avoid it
14:34:59 <andythenorth> very super dangerous
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14:37:45 <peter1138> Ok, taste and texture is fine.
14:38:06 <peter1138> What's dangerous about it?
14:38:52 <peter1138> Other than the general "not enough salt".
14:39:12 <frosch123> maybe they substitute the sodium with rubidium
14:42:09 <andythenorth> if your hangover solution is to drink 2-3 pints of very salty water
14:42:18 <andythenorth> the low-sodium causes a kidney problem
14:42:40 <andythenorth> loops of henle or something
14:43:13 <milek7> wtf is low-sodium salt? it contains sodium by definition
14:44:01 <peter1138> Apparently it contains potassium chloride as well as sodium chloride.
14:44:33 <frosch123> milek7: no, salt means alkali+halogen
14:47:13 <milek7> technically, but I didn't expect other chemical salts to be sold as table salt ;P
14:49:19 <frosch123> regular table salt is like 95% sodium-chloride
14:49:49 <frosch123> there is often *-flurid or potassium-* included
14:58:11 <crem> Does anyone use timetables?
14:59:41 <frosch123> you can use timed loading/unloading if you do not want "full load"
15:00:02 <frosch123> but timed travel caused more trouble than help for me
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15:01:37 <crem> I mean do you find them useful?.. It would be nice to have it "for realism", but as there's no real periodicity, it's not real timetable. And for optimization.. I kind of hesitate to try it, especially given that I have lots of easier things to optimize if I wanted.
15:02:15 <frosch123> there is some 24h patch, which some people obsess about
15:02:41 <peter1138> The only useful thing is to try and keep vehicles apart so you don't have to use full-load to stop them bunching up and leaving empty.
15:02:50 <peter1138> But it's always been fragile and too much bother for me.
15:02:54 <frosch123> but as said: setting loading to 5 days for all stops and not restricting travel time allows for some continous cargo flow
15:02:59 <frosch123> without being blocked by full load
15:03:08 <frosch123> and without vehicles sticking together
15:03:15 <peter1138> And pointless later in the game when you have way too much units to feasibly move all of it.
15:04:33 <frosch123> the main reason for vehicles bunching up is when the first vehicle takes all cargo, and the next one leaves immediately because of no cargo. timed loading solves that issue and keeps vehicles N days apart
15:14:14 <andythenorth> timetables don't work
15:14:38 <andythenorth> I've followed the instructions
15:14:47 <andythenorth> I don't understand the obsession with them, they are a non-feature
15:15:25 <andythenorth> actually, more accurate statement: auto-separation does not work
15:15:29 <andythenorth> timed loading works great
15:15:43 <andythenorth> auto-separation absolutely does not work every time I tried it
15:16:36 <supermop_elsewhere> timetables work fine for me
15:16:42 <supermop_elsewhere> use them on everything
15:18:10 <andythenorth> how do they work?
15:18:21 <andythenorth> isn't it totally weird to nerf the vehicle speed?
15:19:16 <Sacro> How do you get a vehicle to depart "not empty"
15:19:21 <Sacro> Rather than waiting until full
15:25:49 <andythenorth> probably by using conditional orders and sending it in a loop to reload until x% full
15:26:00 <andythenorth> sometimes the solutions seem...'interesting'
15:26:36 <andythenorth> obviously it would be madness to have 'load x%' order
15:26:52 <andythenorth> it might get in the way of all the conditional orders that are VERY ESSENTIAL TO SERIOUS PLAY
15:38:14 <peter1138> £159.99 for a game controller...
16:01:26 <Sacro> Does it work with OpenTTD?
16:02:39 <Sacro> Ooh, it has flappy paddles
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16:03:26 <supermop_elsewhere> andythenorth: i rarely set the speed limits
16:06:40 <stefino> hi. vehicle's property "road_type" means on what roads can this vehicle goes?
16:07:35 <nielsm> afaik it's a single road type, not multiple
16:08:05 <nielsm> road types then specify their "compatible with", meaning "vehicles that can run on these roadtypes can also run on me"
16:10:07 <nielsm> exactly the same way as railtypes work
16:12:20 <stefino> yes so have a situation - three roadtypes RT1,RT2,RT3. I set in RT1 - powered_roadtypes: RT2,RT3. And in vehicles properties set road_type: RT1. It means that the vehicle can run on all three roadtypes but I can see it only in RT1 depot?
16:13:04 <nielsm> roadtypes docs haven't been merged yet
16:13:05 <frosch123> planetmaker: noone knows what got implemented
16:14:31 <planetmaker> he... roadtypes *and* tram types? according to links to non-existing wiki pages... :|
16:19:30 <andythenorth> I am working on it
16:19:42 <andythenorth> to be fair, peter1138 does know what got implemented, as does the code :)
16:19:56 <andythenorth> and I am working examples which exercise the spec
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16:22:03 <andythenorth> it's quite simple cases though
16:23:53 <andythenorth> seems I don't use compatible types list yet
16:27:39 <stefino> yes I have it similar, only need to understand how compatible property works. Cause I thought that roadtype defines on which other roadtypes can its vehicle runs and on the other hand I can define in the vehicle properties in whitch depots will this vehicle appears
16:28:49 <nielsm> if roadtype A marks itself compatible with roadtypes B and C, then vehicles made for roadtype A can only run on A, vehicles for roadtype B can run on A and B, and vehicles for roadtype C can run on A and C
16:28:52 <nielsm> as far as I understand
16:30:42 <stefino> "The road-/tramtypes specify, which other tracktypes their vehicles can drive on." from wiki
16:31:25 <stefino> so if I will buy vehicle on roadtype A, it will run on A,b and C or not?
16:31:35 <andythenorth> depends on roadtype A
16:31:51 <andythenorth> hmm actually I'm not sure
16:31:55 <nielsm> in my example, if you build a depot of roadtype A it will only have vehicles for roadtype A
16:32:02 <andythenorth> I never did understand compatibility
16:32:04 <nielsm> if you build a depot for roadtype B it will have vehicles for types A and B
16:32:37 <stefino> andy: yes, it is a little bit crazy :D
16:32:46 <stefino> nielsim: I will try it :)
16:32:56 <nielsm> high speed rail (A) is compatible with low speed rail (B), but low speed rail is not compatible with high speed rail
16:33:33 <nielsm> (assuming the high speed rail trains require some safety equipment the low speed track does not have)
16:34:14 <nielsm> "compatible with" could also be called "also accepts vehicles of types"
16:35:26 <stefino> okay :) I'll try to write it into NML
16:44:08 <andythenorth> so the type has compatible
16:44:16 <andythenorth> but the vehicle also has 'powered_roadtype_list' or equivalent
16:44:25 <andythenorth> that always puzzles me
16:46:37 <andythenorth> no I'm wrong, that's on the type
16:48:01 <andythenorth> meanwhile, do we know what the 5th sprite should be for crossings?
16:48:56 <andythenorth> the sprite I'm using currently is a white square, and I can't get it to show :P
16:49:02 <andythenorth> but it makes nmlc angry
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17:04:30 <stefino> So, I tried it in the game. I set in road A powered_roadtype_list: B. Road B is not powered with A.Vehicle which is bought in depot A can runs on A and B. Vehicle from depot B can runs only on road B. So powered_roadtype_list means - vehicles from this road can go on X,Y
17:05:07 <stefino> "if roadtype A marks itself compatible with roadtypes B and C, then vehicles made for roadtype A can only run on A," so this is wrong...vehicles can runs on A,B and C
17:06:29 <stefino> in case you meant that in roatype A properties I set powered_roadtype_list: B,C;
17:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "compatible" and "powered" are different things
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17:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause> for railtypes, basically it means: "compatible" -> this can go there "as a wagon", "powered" -> this can go there "as an engine"
17:21:50 <stefino> powered_roadtype_list, powered_tramtype_list -> there is no difference between "powered" and "compatible" for road-/tramtype
17:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> since there are no wagons for roads, the "compatible" part is meaningless for roadtypes
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17:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause> any sentences containing "compatible" can probably be removed from those specs
17:23:58 <stefino> roadtypes I have done
17:24:29 <stefino> I'm little bit confused by road_type in vehicle properties
17:25:20 <andythenorth> it sets the roadtype
17:27:08 <stefino> so if I have labels (RT01, ROAD, ELRD, RT04, RT05, RT06, RT07,...) and set road_type: RT01, vehicle will appears only in RT01 depot?
17:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it will appear in RT01 depots, and all depots that RT01 set as "powered"
17:27:56 <andythenorth> what is compatible with RT01?
17:28:06 <andythenorth> also what eddi said
17:29:00 <andythenorth> is that how the roadtypetable works?
17:29:01 <stefino> I tried something like this for multiple roadtypes
17:29:08 <andythenorth> I don't understand the roadtypetable
17:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that roadtype table is probably wrong/misunderstood
17:29:31 <andythenorth> yeah type tables have these weird groups
17:29:38 <andythenorth> I was given one for railtypes in Termite
17:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> in the roadtype table you write fallback types, in case the first one isn't defined at all (e.g. track set not loaded)
17:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't have anything to do with compatible/powered
17:30:56 <andythenorth> that makes complete sense
17:30:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so, if RT01 exists in your current game, all further entries in that list will be ignored
17:31:23 <andythenorth> stefino: are you combining vehicles and roadtypes in the same grf?
17:31:58 <stefino> no, I have GRF for Roads , grf for trucks and grf for buses
17:34:19 <stefino> not NML file...NML source
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17:35:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "RED_TEST: [RED_, REDR, ROAD]" <-- this means "if RED_ exists, pick RED_. if RED_ doesn't exist, try REDR, and if that also doesn't exist, pick ROAD (which will always exist)
17:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "ROADS_1: [RT01, ROAD, ELRD, RT05, RT06, RT07, RT08, RT09, RT10, RT11, RT12, RT13, RT14]," <- this means "if RT01 exists, pick RT01, else pick ROAD, since that always exists, all the other entries are always ignored"
17:36:34 <stefino> yes yes it is important thing what I didn't know
17:37:26 <nielsm> if you've worked with CSS it's similar to the font-family fallbacks list
17:38:04 <nielsm> (on the other hand, I'm not sure how many CSS writers actually know that's a thing)
17:38:17 <Eddi|zuHause> if none of the entries between [] exist, the vehicle will be disabled
17:39:43 <stefino> nielsm: no, I'm happy that I'm able to code something in NML :D - I'm nota programmer. This is a problem because bridges and stations are not in NML. I have to try to learn M4NFO in the future.
17:41:19 <planetmaker> write it directly in nfo
17:41:34 <stefino> Eddi|zuHause: okay. I'm little bit lost in this huge amount of informations :D So - there is no way how to assign one vehicle for more roadtypes.
17:42:15 <nielsm> stefino: what you do is designate the "designed for" roadtype of the vehicle
17:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: the roadtype makes that "powered" list, the vehicle cannot change it, it can only pick one
17:42:22 <nielsm> e.g. just ROAD if it runs on any regular road
17:42:28 <stefino> planetmaker: :D NFO is huge amount of absurd numbers for me :D
17:42:44 <nielsm> each roadtype then defines which other roadtypes it is similar to
17:42:52 <andythenorth> there is a trick for cross-compatibility
17:42:56 <andythenorth> using a hidden roadtype
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17:44:40 <andythenorth> roadtype_flags: bitmask(ROADTYPE_FLAG_HIDDEN);
17:45:10 <andythenorth> vehicles that use have 'road_type: LOLZ' will be able to drive on both ROAD and HAUL
17:45:59 <andythenorth> LOLZ does not appear in the build oist
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17:52:06 <supermop_elsewhere> stefino: i think you can find my trolleybi code on the forum and copy that
18:16:17 <stefino> in the end I succesfully coded it
18:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: the code is really not that complicated, but you need the right mindset for it :)
18:17:15 <stefino> Eddi|zuHause: yes yes I have to agree :)
18:18:16 <supermop_elsewhere> andythenorth: timetable train to wait some significant amount of time at the loading station, but don't use full load
18:23:25 <andythenorth> what newgrf is that? :P
18:23:48 <andythenorth> there's a coach with a funny colour
18:24:11 <andythenorth> it's like watching model trains ewh
18:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the red coach is a dining car
18:31:57 <andythenorth> how do you choose the liveries?
18:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't, there's just separate vehicles
18:38:04 <andythenorth> how big is the buy menu? o_O
18:38:18 <andythenorth> I should just watch the stream :P
18:38:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's ok, you can also watch the recording for like 2 weeks :p
18:39:22 <andythenorth> lot of black freight steam engines eh
18:39:38 <andythenorth> lots of pax coaches
18:39:42 <andythenorth> not so many wagons
19:02:28 <Eddi|zuHause> my FPS is on point today...
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19:43:16 <andythenorth> ^ related, I need to fix the destination bar so that speed is shown first
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19:43:24 <andythenorth> "I had a patch for that"
19:44:10 <Eddi|zuHause> should be a rather easy patch
19:45:45 <andythenorth> 'easy' is contextual to localised programming ability :P
19:45:57 <andythenorth> it's only a few lines, but they have to be the right lines :P
19:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the nature of patches, usually :p
19:47:29 <nielsm> could also change the UI more, add a separate bar for current order, clicking that opens the orders list, and could show the expected/planned arrival next to it if there is a timetable
19:48:39 <andythenorth> I'm not sure the current UI is wrong, except that it obscures speed a lot
19:49:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you can fix that by splitting the string in 2
19:49:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and adding a separator
19:49:31 <andythenorth> or moving the speed to the start of the string
19:49:38 <andythenorth> which is trivial, and possibly better
19:49:50 * andythenorth likes low-tech solutions
19:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> you could then also have two click actions, clicking on the speed will start/stop and clicking on the destination will scroll to the location
19:50:08 <andythenorth> that is an interesting proposal
20:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> rather ctrl+click?
20:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> is that taken already?
20:25:20 <frosch123> yes, ctrl+click is go to selected line
20:25:51 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, but that should help this person already :p
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20:42:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling the game is going to crash soon :/
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20:55:45 * andythenorth wonders if orudge is here :)
20:56:46 <andythenorth> hmm why is Twitter recommending I follow me?
20:59:10 <frosch123> did you read their faq?
21:01:14 <frosch123> also, do you want ottd's twitter?
21:02:06 <andythenorth> does anyone want it? :P
21:02:52 <andythenorth> do we have like a 1password or something?
21:02:58 <andythenorth> for account creds :P
21:03:22 <LordAro> "shared password manager" sounds like a thing that shouldn't exist, if it does
21:03:28 <andythenorth> I used to think that
21:03:43 <andythenorth> but the alternatives are much worse
21:03:52 <frosch123> the group accounts are managed via info@
21:04:04 <andythenorth> and, so I'm told, it's cryptographically fine to have shared password vault
21:04:08 <frosch123> if you have access to info@, you'll find how to access the rest
21:04:32 <LordAro> andythenorth: seems like a lot of effort for not much gain
21:04:42 <LordAro> just put it in your own password manager if you want to
21:05:17 <andythenorth> eh, might be tricky for me to talk to FSFE
21:05:29 <andythenorth> they seem to be fundamentally opposed to my business
21:05:36 <andythenorth> and are running a big campaign about it
21:05:36 <frosch123> "your're no in europe"?
21:05:46 <andythenorth> nah, I sell software to government
21:06:01 <andythenorth> and I don't provide an open source license and source code
21:07:06 <frosch123> do you do voting software?
21:08:15 <andythenorth> oh we could assign copyright to OpenTTD org
21:08:25 <andythenorth> but then we'd need a contributor agreement
21:08:31 <andythenorth> and we can't retcon the old commits
21:09:19 <frosch123> when the gpl header was added to all source files, we couldn't figure out who/what to put into the copyright notice
21:09:42 <frosch123> so we left it out :) probably makes it all void :p
21:09:43 <andythenorth> by default it's the author
21:09:58 <andythenorth> in most of our jurisdictions afaik
21:10:05 <andythenorth> but who is the author? :P
21:10:19 <andythenorth> when eddi writes all my code for me, and I paste it in?
21:10:48 <frosch123> ottd is like the city of london, it just is
21:12:11 <nielsm> where's the guide on building illegal infrastructure
21:12:48 <frosch123> you purchase some abandoned military bunker
21:17:10 <andythenorth> and what's the roadtype equivalent?
21:17:26 <nielsm> andythenorth: I tried looking into it earlier and I don't think there is an equivalent
21:17:39 <nielsm> it might just be a copy-paste leftover requirement from railtypes
21:17:42 <frosch123> those are for junctions
21:18:45 <frosch123> build a tram cross, and you will get it
21:21:14 <andythenorth> ok so I need some tram examples
21:21:38 <frosch123> essentially, if you get the first 4 of that row, you should also get the 5th
21:23:01 <frosch123> actually, where did you get those sprite sfrom?
21:24:10 <andythenorth> they are cargo culted from the railtype spritesheet
21:24:16 <andythenorth> I am hoping they are not needed
21:24:17 <frosch123> or were you actually talking about railtypes? in that case you get that sprite by crossing two tracks
21:24:56 <andythenorth> it's a bit of a catch 22 trying to write docs without any docs :)
21:25:56 <andythenorth> and they trigger white pixel warnings because no sprites drawn
21:39:33 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: 1password isn't free (the cloud variant), so no :P
21:39:36 <TrueBrain> but it is a good idea tbh :D
21:41:06 <TrueBrain> owh, they offer it for free to Open Source projects, from what I understand
21:41:13 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, it successfully crashed
21:42:07 <TrueBrain> too bad you have to email 30 days before the end of the year to renew
21:42:10 <TrueBrain> that will be forgotten, ofc
21:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that's twice in 2 days
21:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: just automate the email :p
21:42:58 <andythenorth> Python Cryptographic Authority are using it, so it's probably fine, right? :P
21:43:24 <andythenorth> ouch I've forgotten where the sprite lists are
21:43:24 <TrueBrain> from a crypt-point-of-view 1password is fine
21:43:47 <TrueBrain> they solved many common issues nicely
21:44:08 <TrueBrain> and their teams support is pretty solid
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21:45:04 <andythenorth> I figure shared creds -> reduced bus factor -> less burden on some individuals -> project is more fun?
21:45:23 <TrueBrain> all creds are shared, so no :P
21:45:29 <TrueBrain> but a sane way to share creds, that is nice :)
21:45:48 <nielsm> why have shared creds when access to most resources support multiple personal accounts?
21:46:18 <TrueBrain> because in the end you always have 1 master account for nearly everything
21:46:29 <TrueBrain> not many allow more than 1 "uber" account
21:46:33 <TrueBrain> GitHub is a clear exception
21:46:58 <TrueBrain> and of course you have stuff like Twitter, Docker Hub, root-passwords, ..
21:47:22 <TrueBrain> so "most" sadly is not true .. a minority only allows multiple personal accounts to be "owners"
21:48:18 <TrueBrain> the SysOp part alone has 29 passwords that don't allow MPAs :(
21:49:11 <andythenorth> we also use it for rapid revoke if an endpoint is lost / suspect
21:49:20 <andythenorth> and for guaranteed rotations
21:49:27 <andythenorth> but that's probably less important here
21:49:39 <TrueBrain> it is important for everyone
21:49:41 <andythenorth> apart from our ability to distribute malware at scale :P
21:49:44 <TrueBrain> just harder to implement in the current situation :)
21:50:12 <andythenorth> ok so my to-do list is:
21:50:18 <andythenorth> - add some screenshots to website
21:50:32 <andythenorth> well that's obvious :P
21:50:35 <andythenorth> - maybe contact the FSFE people
21:50:44 <andythenorth> - maybe get 1password open source
21:50:49 <andythenorth> - try fix nml docs
21:50:57 <andythenorth> - take over openttd twitter :|
21:51:37 <TrueBrain> @kick Xaroth stop repeating me; rave
21:51:37 *** Xaroth was kicked by DorpsGek (stop repeating me; rave)
21:51:39 <andythenorth> - oh, also get a reddit account? :P
21:52:05 <TrueBrain> reddit made me giggle btw
21:52:18 <TrueBrain> replies were meant well, but funny :)
21:52:27 <andythenorth> some nice screenshots though
21:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "In the picture coming from the most respected server for OpenTTD, “Brianetta’s Standard”" <-- when was that, 10 years ago?
21:54:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #45: White pixel warnings when compiling example_roadtype_and_tramtype.nml https://git.io/Je8vj
21:54:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's noticeably on the front page also for me :P
21:54:52 <andythenorth> I had a long weird argument with Brianetta here once
21:55:02 <andythenorth> 'most respected' does not chime with my view :P
21:55:11 <TrueBrain> I like how it is absolute
21:55:28 <andythenorth> former us were all silly
21:58:11 <andythenorth> to showcase 1.9.0 group livery feature
21:58:11 <frosch123> we once gave twitter access to kamnet :)
21:58:35 <andythenorth> should we just IFTTT the Twitter from the website?
21:58:46 <andythenorth> or have the bot post when the website is built?
21:59:06 <andythenorth> @dorpsgek tweet "andythenorth grfs are best"
21:59:09 <frosch123> "website had been updated"?
21:59:17 <andythenorth> just post the commit :P
21:59:42 <frosch123> oh, the @openttd twitter used to post the svn log
21:59:45 <frosch123> does it still work?
22:00:16 <andythenorth> hook it up to Bananas 2 also
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22:01:27 <andythenorth> sure it was more recent than that
22:01:46 <TrueBrain> we migrated in April I think?
22:01:52 <andythenorth> might be the time we only had lang commits for 3 months
22:01:53 <TrueBrain> why would someone build that twitter bot, I wonder :P
22:02:36 <frosch123> so, it was broken two years before
22:03:13 <TrueBrain> as that logo is pretty much not OpenTTD's :P
22:03:28 <frosch123> he, zephyris liked one of the last tweets
22:04:43 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it mentions mercurial in the description, so it may have been when the mq mirrror default branch changed
22:06:03 <TrueBrain> happens with unofficial stuff :)
22:08:59 <LordAro> and sometimes official stuff
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22:19:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened pull request #48: Docs: (fixes #45) remove unused spritesets from roadtype example https://git.io/Je48T
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22:29:06 <glx> both version of action seems to work
22:30:33 <glx> ignore test job, it fails because hooks are probably broken :)
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23:11:28 <andythenorth> how about a news post with links to YT videos of OpenTTD?
23:11:29 <andythenorth> e6244da65714680b2c7547490c9519bc417b438a
23:14:23 <andythenorth> time for the next monthly dev post I think
23:16:39 <andythenorth> it's just 2 screenshots, we don't need burocro-gedden
23:36:53 <andythenorth> hmm no sensible h4 in website oof
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23:52:45 <peter1138> andythenorth, I was playing mountain bikes in the mud.
23:53:06 <andythenorth> btw is your newgrf dock patch lost?
23:53:16 <andythenorth> I have mentioned it in the 'monthly' dev post I'm writing
23:54:29 <peter1138> That was all pre-git stuff.
23:55:16 <peter1138> 20g of honey cashews and peanuts is hardly any :/
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