IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-10-15
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00:48:59 <supermop_work> damn this thing is still $300?
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10:06:08 <crem> $300 is like 1/20 of a steam engine in openttd!
10:12:55 <crem> btw that "local authority refuses to allow this" thingy is pretty small detail of the game, but still it seems it would be worth fixing. It's a fine idea, but pretty awkward implementation. Especially given that solution is planting lots of trees, which you usually chop right away because you place station on top.
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10:59:42 <peter1138> load average: 266.00, 264.13, 254.35
11:34:48 <LordAro> peter1138: that seems high
11:35:44 <andythenorth> minecraft is CPU intensive eh?
11:37:50 <crem> Probably computing path-based signals. :-P
11:42:13 <peter1138> Disk failure on my old server. Which is nice :(
11:43:03 <peter1138> Yes, my stupid fault for not having backups. Who'd'a thunk it.
11:43:22 <peter1138> One of those "it's on RAID but it's not important" things.
11:43:54 <andythenorth> but...RAID 10 is invincible?
11:44:05 <peter1138> So, er, there's a few OpenTTD patches missing :p
11:45:11 <andythenorth> you just avoided bureaucracy around PRs and stuff :P
11:45:15 <andythenorth> think of the time saved
11:45:18 <crem> One strategy is to always buy crappiest disks possible. I did that from 1998 till 2010 and every year there was at least 1 failed disk. Made me not forget about backups! And now I use higher quality disks and don't do backups, will bite me soon!
11:45:54 <peter1138> Yeah, the issue is it's never had disk errors, and still doesn't show the normal read/write errors. It just freezes.
11:46:00 <andythenorth> I assume it's all on dropbox or something
11:46:04 <andythenorth> that will burn me one day
11:46:09 <peter1138> And it is software RAID, so not being hidden by a RAID controller either.
11:46:35 <peter1138> No SMART errors either.
11:46:51 <peter1138> Device: /dev/sdb [SAT], is in SLEEP mode, suspending checks
11:46:57 <peter1138> It's put itself to sleep :p
11:47:07 <crem> disks are expensive. :( They stopped following Moore's law 15 years ago and don't really grow in last 10 years.
11:47:35 <crem> And it means backups are expensive.
11:48:42 <peter1138> These are 500GB PATA disks, so, er, yeah, quite old.
11:49:18 <crem> Tape is expensive too. It's only ~2 times cheaper in a limit, and that "limit" starts at petabytes scale, totally unfeasible for home use.
11:49:54 <peter1138> Also, copying from MicroSD to my NAS is really slow :(
11:50:53 <crem> Yeah it's also one way in which hard disks didn't develop. Internet speed is faster than disk speed! That was unbelievable 15 years ago.
11:51:36 <peter1138> Well, that's my NAS being shit. Single-core ARM, I believe.
11:51:48 <peter1138> And the MicroSD is the boot disk in a Raspberry Pi.
11:52:19 <peter1138> (I grabbed files from the server last night down to the pi, now I'm backing those files up onto the NAS)
11:52:31 <peter1138> ((But I couldn't grab /home from the server))
11:52:40 <andythenorth> crem: internet speed is very not faster than disk speed for me :D
11:52:53 <peter1138> Heh, yeah, true that.
11:53:31 <peter1138> I'm guessing a SATA/PATA or USB/PATA adapter will cope really badly with disk errors. Hmm.
11:53:47 <peter1138> I wonder if I have a machine lying around with PATA ports...
11:53:53 <crem> I have symmetric gigabit at home. And there are ISPs that offer 10 gigabit, but I don't have either network adapter for that or any idea what I would use it for.
11:54:02 <peter1138> Should do, I think my optical drives in my last machine were PATA.
11:54:05 <andythenorth> gigabit not gigabyte though :)
11:54:14 <andythenorth> my disk does 2.5GB/s
11:54:32 <peter1138> andythenorth, that'll be an SSD, not a HDD.
11:54:59 <andythenorth> peter1138: I have an old firewire 400 enclosure in the loft somewhere, might be PATA if you get desperate :P
11:55:12 <andythenorth> I have a SATA USB2 thing somewhere, not seen PATA for years
11:55:18 <andythenorth> sure it's not SCSI? :)
12:14:18 <LordAro> they actually made PATA disks with 500G?
12:14:57 <peter1138> odel Family: Western Digital Caviar Blue EIDE
12:15:09 <peter1138> User Capacity: 500,107,862,016 bytes [500 GB]
12:18:24 <LordAro> i did once have a disk that overflowed its 16bit hour count
12:32:34 <andythenorth> I have solved at least 2 problems since breakfast
12:35:42 <peter1138> Power cycle count... 22.
12:37:58 <peter1138> And it's a blue edition, not a server or NAS edition.
13:33:14 <crem> Oh, enabled maintenance costs.. Using signal on every second cell is quite expensive!
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14:07:59 <Sacro> Yeah... that's hitting me hard
14:49:54 <crem> Maintenance cost keeps game interesting economywise longer.
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15:23:08 <andythenorth> oof still not lunch
15:23:14 * andythenorth mistakes were made
15:29:47 <andythenorth> eh validator passes, WAVE passes, contrast checker passes
15:29:55 * andythenorth making a web page
15:37:30 <crem> Another observation.. Vehicle breakdowns are fine.. But what is not fine, is SOUND when they do that! Sound is the only reason I keep breakdowns settings to "reduced".
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16:22:43 <planetmaker> yay... "I've been to your download page and got 1.9.3 macosx but i just get a message from my Imac to put it into the trash bin as the developer can’t be verified. ". Seems obligatory signing of executables on OSX is starting to make live a lot easier...
16:22:51 <planetmaker> (quote from an e-mail to info@ )
16:27:19 <andythenorth> if their OS is Catalina
16:27:35 <andythenorth> the current mac blogworld advice is "don't upgrade"
16:27:51 <andythenorth> I nearly commented on that this morning
16:28:25 <andythenorth> as far as I can tell from the ars review, gatekeeper should not be worse for Catalina than Mojave
16:28:36 <andythenorth> we don't sign anyway, so we shouldn't need to notarise
16:29:26 <planetmaker> there's a lot of "should" in the sentences :P
16:29:35 <planetmaker> Sounds like a clash with reality ;)
16:32:32 <andythenorth> generally I'm +1 to the notarisation, but it might kill the mac port of OpenTTD
16:32:43 <andythenorth> it's signposted as becoming more restrictive in future
16:39:29 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
16:40:45 <FLHerne> Is there any reason why OpenTTD can't just get signed?
16:42:28 <crem> I think main reason is that it's not free.
16:45:10 <peter1138> r10130 opengl.diff. HJmm.
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17:01:12 <planetmaker> yes... signing for sure will become mandatory...
17:01:54 <planetmaker> I can see reasons for the notarization... but there's also a lot of cons. It's tightening the locks on the golden cage(s)
17:04:57 <planetmaker> so yes... it probably fails on "needs an apple developer account" etc :|
17:05:31 <planetmaker> they definitely don't come for free... even years back they were like 100€ or something. For a year?
17:06:01 <andythenorth> did we port OpenTTD for MMORG browser game yet?
17:07:52 <planetmaker> So ... it definitely will need making some OpenTTD organization which counts as legal entity. That could indeed also solve the issue with OpenTTD in the MS store
17:08:27 <milek7> windows smartscreen throws scary warnings too. at least it stops after a while each binary is available
17:08:38 <andythenorth> OpenTTD Foundation :P
17:08:47 <andythenorth> who owns the domain and the bank account anyway?
17:09:40 <planetmaker> foundation is not so far fetched as it actually sounds. But I'm not sure how much burocracy it needs
17:11:34 <planetmaker> I actually wonder... how much legal status that still has :D
17:13:13 <nielsm> a signing cert for windows distributions would also be good yes
17:14:02 <andythenorth> and that only at arms length
17:14:35 <planetmaker> any such thing will probably require at least a yearly meeting with report from board, especially about accounting
17:14:52 <planetmaker> though meeting surely could be online, if constitution of the assoc or foundation allows
17:16:08 <andythenorth> I am -1 to un-needed bureaucracy :)
17:16:20 <milek7> i have windows codesigning cert from Certum, for 25eur/yearly
17:16:23 <andythenorth> but if it helped anything, it might be worth it
17:16:40 <andythenorth> burocracy is a much easier spelling
17:17:18 <planetmaker> problem is: it might not be unneeded. Unwanted: yes
17:18:27 <planetmaker> he... bureaucracy... burocracy... Bürokratie
17:18:42 <andythenorth> german spelling is better in this case
17:18:59 <andythenorth> probably a cert could be done by one person
17:19:04 <andythenorth> but bus factor would be high
17:19:39 <planetmaker> an official organization would be able to solve a few things at once... like issues with "we are official" with app stores
17:20:12 <andythenorth> does TrueBrain poke back?
17:20:33 <planetmaker> with a long stick :P
17:20:38 <milek7> 'we are official' probably requires some trademark?
17:20:55 <planetmaker> which also requires to be some legal entity
17:21:08 <planetmaker> unless you want to assign that to a single person
17:21:18 <planetmaker> (which also works... but again bus factor)
17:22:37 <planetmaker> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Project uses "Funding for infrastructure and art and music commissions is provided by Wesnoth, Inc., a US-based company which manages revenue geneated by the official iOS version of the game on the Apple app store. While Wesnoth, Inc. financially supports the project, it does not have any involvement in its organization and direction"
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17:26:13 <andythenorth> I know of situations, where e.g. a charity sets up a trading arm
17:26:18 <andythenorth> which donates to the charity
17:26:25 <andythenorth> but is otherwise separated
17:26:36 <planetmaker> seems to be the case for wesnoth. somewhat
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18:56:28 <andythenorth> anyone ever played Road Hog?
19:04:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, fiddliness intensifies
19:10:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened issue #47: Extend roadtypes / tramtypes examples and provide tests https://git.io/Je8bR
19:14:49 <andythenorth> currently it has nothing drawn, so triggers white pixel warning
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20:50:50 <TrueBrain> @kick andythenorth poke
20:50:50 *** andythenorth was kicked by DorpsGek (poke)
20:51:02 <TrueBrain> @invite andythenorth
20:51:04 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
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20:51:26 <andythenorth> oof I was watching Youtube fullscreen
20:51:31 <andythenorth> and now you interrupted that :P
20:51:45 <TrueBrain> that you get for random highlights
20:51:48 <TrueBrain> no clue why you did :D
20:52:22 <andythenorth> OpenTTD Foundation
20:52:32 <andythenorth> board member: Truebrain, responsible adult
20:52:41 <andythenorth> it is pointless lolz?
20:53:05 <TrueBrain> having a registered organization would make Steam possible
20:53:11 <andythenorth> oh another plus point
20:53:19 <andythenorth> and the Apple notorisation bollocks
20:53:25 <andythenorth> and maybe MS Store too
20:56:24 <nielsm> and make the donations formally owned by the project and not a person?
20:56:42 <andythenorth> BUT THERE WOULD BE PAPERWORK
20:56:51 <TrueBrain> also means we can easier publish our donation, and what goes in/out :P
20:57:12 <TrueBrain> (out if 100% infra, I guess :P)
20:57:16 <nielsm> but where would such a foundation have home?
20:57:43 <TrueBrain> EU would be wise, given most of us are EU based
20:57:53 <TrueBrain> UK would be slightly annoying, given the current situation created
20:57:57 <TrueBrain> so for me EU is already without UK
20:58:32 <TrueBrain> but I have 0.0000 clue how such thing works, so I hope someone can fix it or what-ever :P
20:59:02 <TrueBrain> there is one downside: having a legal entity attached to OpenTTD also means we have a legal entity attached to OpenTTD ;)
20:59:03 <nielsm> forming board meeting at the 2.0 release party
20:59:05 <TrueBrain> also just saying :D
20:59:21 <TrueBrain> all-expenses-paid-trip you say? :P
20:59:34 <andythenorth> means Microprose sue the entity? :P
21:00:33 <nielsm> where does the name micropsose come from, actually... were they formed to produce prose for micros?
21:00:48 <nielsm> I suppose program text is sort of prose
21:01:27 <andythenorth> wikipedia doesn't know
21:01:34 <TrueBrain> you sound surprised
21:01:38 <andythenorth> but the bloke who fixed my windows used to work at Microprose
21:01:48 <andythenorth> Chipping Sodbury is near me
21:01:55 <TrueBrain> sounds like a terrible sales-pitch
21:02:02 <TrueBrain> "I used to work for a game company; now I fix your Windows"
21:02:09 <TrueBrain> "I used to work for a game company; now I fix your windows"
21:02:09 <andythenorth> wrong kind of windows :P
21:02:15 <andythenorth> the vehicles called 'Yate' are named after where my I take my kids to football
21:02:47 <TrueBrain> soccer or stupid-ballgame?
21:02:48 <andythenorth> anyway, probably Germany or Holland for a foundation
21:04:20 <andythenorth> I like all the original names
21:04:51 <andythenorth> who likely has more paperwork, germany or netherlands?
21:05:32 <nielsm> no idea, I live in neither place
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21:08:16 <andythenorth> hmm, the foundations I found so far are in USA
21:09:05 <TrueBrain> I would suggest, that if we want something like this, we find someone with a bit more knowledge about it
21:09:31 <andythenorth> we could....pay a layer :o
21:09:34 <nielsm> a union in denmark has very few formal requirements
21:10:13 <TrueBrain> in The Netherlands you would need a "stichting", which would be ~500 euro to setup; you need to deposit yearly financial bla too
21:13:05 <andythenorth> hmm they're all email-contactable, no twitter :(
21:13:10 <andythenorth> I guess twitter is not very FOSS
21:16:05 <TrueBrain> owh no, a peter1138! :)
21:17:03 <nielsm> forming a non-profit union in denmark, that does not conduct business, has literally no other requirements than writing a constitution/charter and having a board of members
21:17:32 <nielsm> can optionally be VAT registered and get a business unit identification number
21:18:00 <TrueBrain> if we would be to make such entity, in my opinion, it should be VAT registered, and all assets should be moved into it
21:18:12 <TrueBrain> reducing the bus-factor :D
21:18:20 <TrueBrain> (well, increasing, I guess :P)
21:18:50 <TrueBrain> but yeah, same here in The Netherlands; with the only difference it needs a notary to approve it
21:18:55 <TrueBrain> there are plenty of services doing that
21:18:59 <TrueBrain> but .. ~500 euro :P
21:19:17 <TrueBrain> fun thing is, it becomes a legal entity on its own
21:19:46 <TrueBrain> so members cannot be held responsible, unless great negligence
21:21:23 <andythenorth> limited liability
21:21:38 <andythenorth> eh so we have some funds though?
21:21:55 <andythenorth> 500 Euro is quite a lot
21:22:21 <TrueBrain> answers that question with 1 answer is impossible :P
21:22:27 <TrueBrain> yes, we do have those funds
21:23:08 <andythenorth> £250 annually to pay accountant
21:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we want a limited liability. we want no liability
21:23:23 <andythenorth> hmm I could file accounts, but that can cause fines
21:23:40 <TrueBrain> and this is the biggest issue with these things
21:23:46 * andythenorth has not actually been fined, but has watched other people getting fined
21:23:47 <TrueBrain> we all somewhat know the law of our own country
21:23:55 <TrueBrain> comparing between countries .... well ... forget about it :P
21:24:05 <peter1138> I'd advise against UK.
21:24:11 <peter1138> Cos we're fucking dumb.
21:24:24 <peter1138> And probably not all that united for too long.
21:24:49 <TrueBrain> I agree with all of the above :P
21:24:54 <nielsm> second scottish war of independence?
21:25:42 * andythenorth invents Brexit GS
21:25:59 <andythenorth> you build the map, then at random point, 80% of it becomes inaccessible
21:26:07 <andythenorth> then a few years later you lose Scotland too :P
21:26:23 * andythenorth is neutral on Brexit, but the lolz are strong
21:26:53 <andythenorth> well do we actually want a foundation?
21:26:56 <TrueBrain> 80%? You mean 2%? :P
21:26:57 <andythenorth> it seems lik....work
21:27:10 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: naturally the GS takes the British side
21:27:17 <andythenorth> it's a British game after all
21:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i always pick the most impossible track layout to build? :p
21:27:39 <TrueBrain> a foundation would solve a ton of things, but yes, it needs someone who wants to invest his/her time in it to figure out the right thing to do
21:28:49 <andythenorth> I know about companies; foundations not so much
21:29:20 <andythenorth> we need a friendly lawyer somewhere in Europe
21:31:50 <andythenorth> I have done a tweet, that will solve it right?
21:32:08 <TrueBrain> link or it didnt happen
21:32:45 <andythenorth> we could....write a news post asking for help?
21:32:49 <andythenorth> and we could...do a forum post?
21:34:13 <andythenorth> do we have a bank account, or does orudge hold it in trust?
21:34:43 <andythenorth> banking usually has to be in the jurisdiction of the entity, or it's even more awful to deal with than usual
21:34:50 <andythenorth> maybe we should put all funds in BTC
21:34:52 <TrueBrain> as we have no legal entity, within the EU, it is impossible to hold a bank account
21:34:55 <TrueBrain> so silly question andythenorth :)
21:35:30 <andythenorth> sometimes a person operates a personal account on behalf of a project :D
21:35:47 <andythenorth> but with a dedicated account number and statements etc
21:36:25 <TrueBrain> I think nobody has ever bothered to ask
21:37:04 <TrueBrain> cool, GitHub Actions also run the GitHub Actions that are new in a PR, but without access. At least that allows you to test-run it :D
21:38:54 <glx> but not from fork I think
21:39:07 <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: that's probably very similar to a Forening in denmark
21:39:12 <glx> at least workflows in PR from forks are not executed
21:39:41 <glx> to prevent possible secrets leaks by nasty PR
21:39:56 <nielsm> (I'm not sure why the da.wikipedia Forening page links to Verband on de.wikipedia, and Verein on de.wikipedia links to Klub on da.wikipedia, they don't seem to be quite equivalent)
21:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: from what i can gather, you have to have at least 7 members, and declare that you have no economical interest
21:40:38 <TrueBrain> glx: no, that has changed; it is just executed without any secrets
21:41:01 <TrueBrain> 2 weeks ago or so I see the first post about it
21:41:07 <TrueBrain> I could be totally mistaken btw, this is hard to test
21:41:14 <TrueBrain> but they are working hard to make this better/easier :D
21:41:21 <TrueBrain> soon, you can just 'echo' annotations
21:42:18 <nielsm> commit checker automatically pointing out where you indented wrong?
21:44:03 <TrueBrain> glx: hmm .. guess you are right :)
21:44:32 <TrueBrain> meh; I will wait for the annotation thing to land. Trying to work around this now is just silly
21:47:07 <nnyby> im sure somebody at FOSDEM in february can help with the openttd foundation, but that's a few months away.
21:47:07 <nielsm> andythenorth someone's been forgetting to post on it? :)
21:47:17 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yes, but nobody is doing the things he should be doing with it :D
21:47:28 <TrueBrain> we lack an active PR person :)
21:48:18 <andythenorth> nnyby: don't you just change the security settings?
21:49:22 <glx> I wish they add templates in workflows (like with azure pipelines)
21:50:53 <TrueBrain> they exist, but possibly not in the way you expected
21:50:58 <TrueBrain> in the same repo, you can add a GitHub Action
21:51:10 <TrueBrain> which is a template, in the sense you can call them from multiple places
21:51:13 <TrueBrain> with different parameters
21:51:25 <TrueBrain> a GitHub Action doesn't have to be a Docker, basically
21:51:26 <glx> yeah but seems silly to write an action just to rebase
21:51:43 <andythenorth> hmm, nope no linux on T2 macs, and a kitten died somewhere
21:52:30 <andythenorth> on the upside, buy a not-mac, save 10-20% Apple tax on equivalent hardware, and have a keyboard that actually works
21:52:31 <nnyby> andythenorth: apparently not... our IT person has been on the phone with apple trying to get data out of this hard drive for a while. the laptop boots up but doesn't accept any passwords, and can't mount the drive remotely.
21:53:01 <andythenorth> oh yeah, there's no way to get the data out without the T2
21:53:03 <andythenorth> that's the point
21:53:19 <andythenorth> I mean, it's Apple, so probably there's a flaw, but it's not discovered yet
21:53:24 <glx> even for commit-checker action, I think it's overkill to do a docker action for it
21:53:50 <glx> but I'm still trying to find how JS action works
21:54:00 <andythenorth> if the T2 has failed and lost the password, the mac is now landfill material
21:55:05 <nnyby> i don't have much patience for these sorts of over-engineered security systems, which no doubt have countless flaws themselves. it causes more problems than it solves. i don't care who knows my password.
21:55:28 <andythenorth> it's a massive selling point for me
21:55:36 <andythenorth> it saves a shitload of paperwork
21:55:59 * andythenorth waits for twitter to rain answers
21:56:04 <glx> basically we just need to run git commands and a python script
21:56:30 <nnyby> interesting, well that's why it exists i suppose >_< if there's a market and helps some people with their jobs, that's cool
21:56:52 <TrueBrain> glx: the commit checker should be a GitHub Action in my opinion, now I have worked some more with it
21:56:58 <TrueBrain> that makes it very useful to use by others
21:57:17 <glx> but maybe not a docker one
21:57:31 <TrueBrain> what-ever floats your boat :)
21:57:46 <TrueBrain> the JS style feels like overkill to me :)
21:57:51 <andythenorth> do I have to join reddit? :(
21:58:44 <TrueBrain> the only possible reason to ask your question, is because of a threat
21:58:50 <TrueBrain> that tells more about the world than anything else :D
21:58:57 <andythenorth> tells more about happy redditors
21:59:49 <TrueBrain> glx: owh, I see now they even suggest to use the JS, as it doesn't use Docker
21:59:58 <TrueBrain> guess I am still catching up to this train ..
22:00:04 <TrueBrain> it used to be docker-only :P
22:00:22 <TrueBrain> glx: remember they supply bootstraps to write your tool in
22:00:28 <glx> docker is overkill for simple scripts
22:00:39 <nielsm> andythenorth: you just post a reply to your own tweet clarifying the purpose
22:00:42 <TrueBrain> glx: so is the code you need for JavaScript :D
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22:01:08 <glx> yeah, but it will run faster than building a docker
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22:01:21 <TrueBrain> glx: "faster" is a silly thing to optimize for in this case :D
22:01:32 <TrueBrain> the Docker can be pushed to the GitHub Package Registry (GPR)
22:01:48 <TrueBrain> I think it is better to write something you know, and others can read
22:01:54 <TrueBrain> Docker .. JavaScript .. I don't care :P
22:02:10 <nielsm> should have called it the Github Docker/Package Repository
22:04:01 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what is up with the stars?
22:04:23 <andythenorth> they are supposed to be bullets, but I fail at Twitter?
22:04:29 <TrueBrain> glx: possibly nice for the learning curve to write both the JS and Docker one :D
22:04:43 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: at one point you have "* *" :P
22:04:49 <andythenorth> oh yeah I'm a clown
22:04:59 <andythenorth> I'll delete it and make it better
22:05:18 <TrueBrain> just pulling your leg
22:08:25 <TrueBrain> okay, I will continue my exploration of GitHub Actions once the annotations are there .. hopefully soon :D
22:08:27 <andythenorth> can't find him on Twitter though
22:08:36 <andythenorth> oh noes! he's a sysadmin
22:09:15 <TrueBrain> I am off; night guys
22:09:31 <nielsm> my birds are getting angry at shadows and keyboard noises
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