IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-10-02
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05:59:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wirdal commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays https://git.io/fjlL0
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11:09:00 <peter1138> Already had breakfast today anyway so... just being greedy.
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11:15:12 <Samu> there was a recession at the end of 2091. RailwAI is approaching first place. WormAI has fallen to 3rd.
11:15:56 <peter1138> > Most viral images > Fat guy's boobs...
11:16:45 <andythenorth> 2014/09/28/16:51 <@peter1138> I should implement roadtypes just to spite you :D
11:16:56 <andythenorth> found by accident
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11:17:08 * andythenorth thinking about snowploughs :P
11:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno what parts of the internet you people are using
11:18:06 <Samu> WormAI has a problem with recessions
11:18:34 <Samu> everytime it is appoaching first, and a recession happens, it starts a slight decline
11:18:47 <andythenorth> is there a hidden var for total town population on the map?
11:19:05 <andythenorth> had an idea about each industry requiring x total population
11:19:27 <Samu> somewhere in display town directory gui
11:19:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's calculated for the town list window, aafair
11:19:34 <andythenorth> not newgrf, doesn't count :)
11:19:38 <andythenorth> tying industry production to population is tedious
11:19:51 <andythenorth> but tying industry construction to population might be interesting
11:20:32 <andythenorth> unrelated, I can't find pikka's snowplough :P
11:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, banks check for population
11:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and some ECS industries check for population nearby
11:22:09 <andythenorth> checking for population nearby could work, it just seems more likely to go wrong
11:22:15 <andythenorth> and need more text writing to explain it
11:22:56 <planetmaker> tying population to industry production will fail for different house newgrfs... they all have different ideas on what population density should be
11:23:41 <andythenorth> well *not* making changes is much easier :)
11:23:56 * andythenorth trying to find any reason to even have towns on the map
11:24:03 <andythenorth> they seem to just get in the way of industries
11:24:03 <planetmaker> checking for num_houses and their town_zone might be the more portable approach
11:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, not brexiting would be way easier
11:24:24 <andythenorth> am I playing the wrong game?
11:24:34 <andythenorth> maybe I am confusing OpenTTD with F
11:25:25 <planetmaker> F is happy to break mod interfaces
11:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i guess F is also moving much faster
11:26:28 <planetmaker> and only has one... instead of like... 3 or 4
11:26:46 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you can't change them, you need to add more :p
11:27:11 <andythenorth> as FIRS evolves, noticeable accidental trend is removal of all the town cargos
11:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> remember when TrueBrain wanted to add another one? :p
11:27:35 <planetmaker> honestly no: when was that and what?
11:27:46 <Eddi|zuHause> about a year ago
11:28:22 <andythenorth> about 6 months ago, and it was a compile-time API to the existing APIs afaict
11:29:07 <andythenorth> then TB ran into the sadness
11:29:32 <andythenorth> well the APIs are a terrible mess
11:29:35 <peter1138> Someone joked and that killed it off.
11:29:35 <planetmaker> that lies close together
11:29:38 <andythenorth> and yet the game I'm playing right now is fun
11:29:42 <andythenorth> and making newgrfs is fun
11:30:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you finishing the town layout patch, it's sooooooo much better
11:30:27 <andythenorth> stop teasing with 50% done patches that make worthwhile changes :P
11:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm sure nobody noted that before :p
11:30:51 <planetmaker> however... lunch time now :D
11:32:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, that link only appears about 19 times in the log of the last 10 years
11:33:08 <andythenorth> do we need a new API? :D
11:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not 11:38 yet
11:33:45 * andythenorth must get on a bike
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12:03:59 <Samu> trivia - destroying a UFO destroys houses if near houses?
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12:59:38 <Samu> the explosion is a bit off
12:59:59 <Samu> it affects more squares than the fiery thing
13:10:25 <peter1138> Could be broken sprite offsets, seeing as it doesn't affect some of the top tiles.
13:10:31 <peter1138> Try it with the proper base set.
13:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so, did the bike have lunch?
13:12:42 <peter1138> Samu, TTD original.
13:13:47 <andythenorth> my bike needs feeding
13:13:53 <andythenorth> forgot to plug it in
13:14:06 <peter1138> You still have legs.
13:14:19 <andythenorth> legs are required with or without battery
13:14:30 <andythenorth> it's just more fun going everywhere at 25mph
13:14:42 <andythenorth> oops, that would be illegal
13:14:50 <andythenorth> that doesn't actually happen of course
13:15:01 <andythenorth> funny, can ride a pushbike as fast you like
13:15:19 <andythenorth> but an assisted bike is not permitted to do more than 17mph
13:15:58 <peter1138> Yes, but the assumption is the average cyclist will be doing 10mph on the pavement anyway...
13:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> tell that to the tour de france?
13:16:25 <peter1138> They're not exactly average.
13:16:38 <peter1138> They also take more drugs.
13:16:50 <andythenorth> necessary medication
13:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: does that limit change if you have a moped driver license?
13:18:00 <andythenorth> it changes if you tax and insure the bike as a road vehicle
13:18:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes somewhat sense
13:18:24 <andythenorth> but then it can't be ridden on cycle paths, or in cycle lanes
13:23:58 <LordAro> NL seems to be quite happy with mopeds on their cycle paths
13:25:33 <Eddi|zuHause> NL has LOOOOTS of cycle paths, though :p
13:26:20 <peter1138> You'd need to get the bike type-approved. And fit number plates. And have an MOT.
13:26:49 <peter1138> So you might as well just get a moped :p
13:27:12 <peter1138> e-mopeds are a thing of course.
13:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, in germany electric bikes don't count as motor vehicle
13:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause> ... by research of about 5 minutes on wikipedia
13:28:22 <peter1138> e-bikes don't as long as they comply with the limits (power limit and must not be self-powered)
13:28:23 <Eddi|zuHause> ... if the motor has less than 250W and is limited to 25km/h
13:32:29 <andythenorth> maybe I should just tax and insure it, and get one with a really big motor :P
13:32:35 <andythenorth> I don't ride on many cycle paths
13:33:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ... if you get an insured version, you can go 45km/h apparently
13:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> ... which is a really dangerous speed if you want to go on actual roads
13:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> ... because everyone else will be going 60km/h (at 50km/h speed limit)
13:34:56 <planetmaker> Samu, what type of explosion is that?
13:35:30 <peter1138> You can see the fighter jet.
13:35:45 <planetmaker> yeah. but that flies over the whole map from East to West :)
13:35:49 <peter1138> Which is a bomber really :p
13:36:00 <planetmaker> nah, the avanger :)
13:36:18 <peter1138> Yeah but the chances of a refinery explosion at the same time as the fighter...?
13:36:35 <peter1138> OH THAT'LL NEVER HAPPEN
13:36:43 <peter1138> > Happens 75% of the time
13:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ... ok, this article descends into legalese which makes my head hurt, i'm going to stop...
13:42:02 <peter1138> So eccles cakes... why are they so high in carolies?
13:42:28 <planetmaker> calories are the carriers of taste. So...
13:43:37 <peter1138> They're like, sugar wrapped in a crust of sugar.
13:44:11 <planetmaker> yeah... taste is carried by or attached to sugar and fat usually :)
13:45:32 <Samu> it was a large UFO, landed on some house
13:46:05 <Samu> or maybe on clear terrain, adjacent to a house
13:46:14 <Samu> graphics were overlapping
13:47:10 <peter1138> That's why I suggested some sprite offset.
13:47:20 <peter1138> And therefore testing against the proper graphics.
13:47:43 <planetmaker> s/proper/often illegal/ ;)
13:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> since when do large ufos land on clear terrain?
13:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> back in my days, they only landed on tracks
13:49:38 <peter1138> I was assuming it's clear due to having been bombed :p
13:55:49 <Samu> competing for 1st place is heating up
13:56:20 <Samu> WormAI vs LuDiAI AfterFix vs RailwAI
14:06:23 * andythenorth builds loads of connected docks
14:19:17 <peter1138> Oh yeah. I just had lunch.
14:19:35 <peter1138> With a bit of Port Salut cheese.
14:19:47 <peter1138> And a chunk of fruit cake.
14:38:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I was wondering why fishing harbours don't come with a built-in dock? They definitely look like they should be one
14:43:41 <andythenorth> because $reasons
14:44:03 <andythenorth> would you like all of them, or just that one? :)
15:12:58 <FLHerne> More reasons would be interesting :P
15:22:58 <Eddi|zuHause> my prime reason would be lack of transfer from ship to train/truck
15:23:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you only really need dock at fishing harbor if you have separate fishing grounds
16:08:17 <FLHerne> Well, a player can always build their own dock if needed
16:15:51 <andythenorth> reasons include...
16:16:06 <andythenorth> - don't want airports at fishing harbours, ports etc
16:16:44 <andythenorth> - shared dock tiles confuses cdist
16:16:53 <andythenorth> - shared dock tiles create accidental sharing in MP
16:17:10 <andythenorth> - there is only one dock tile, no multi-dock
16:17:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that last one is invalid now?
16:18:07 <andythenorth> - there was a nearly-finished yexo patch queue for new ports, that provided control over industry dock tiles
16:18:38 <andythenorth> anyway, those are the reasons
16:18:45 <andythenorth> I don't hate the idea, it just seemed to have downsides
16:25:53 <andythenorth> flat docks anyone? o_O
16:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> only thing you really need is a GUI for it?
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17:33:10 <Samu> difficult to see now who's leading
17:37:16 <Samu> year 2110, I'm finally overtaken :(
17:44:44 <supermop_work> do three track lines ever make sense?
17:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> usually you want to give the trains as few choices as possible
17:45:46 <supermop_work> both in game and also in real life
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17:46:18 <supermop_work> the advantage of a peak direction only express seems not that useful
17:47:32 <Eddi|zuHause> there isn't really any "peak"
17:48:58 <supermop_work> as you can't have twice the capacity in one direction without trains piling up at the end
17:50:20 <supermop_work> and if you put 0.5 capacity of the 'down' line on each 'up' line, you might as well just run it two tracks
17:56:09 <supermop_work> Eddi|zuHause: yeah ofc there is no rush hour in game, but i cant really think of any other use cases
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18:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you have trains accelerate slow in one direction, you could double that track
18:16:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and alternate the trains between both
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18:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> (usually that's only useful on station exits, once the trains are up to speed, you can join the two lines)
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18:36:32 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Hello again
18:36:56 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Is there a way to compile OpenTTD and make it use Alsa instead of the nightmare of PulseAudio?
18:37:09 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> like, completely and absolutely ignore pulseaudio
18:37:49 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Because it's still giving me nightmares
18:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> there is nothing about pulseaudio that is included anywhere in the game
18:39:27 <Eddi|zuHause> just disable pulseaudio
18:40:45 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay so when i use "ldd openttd" and it tells me that it uses libpulse.so, what does that mean?
18:41:32 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> (just to be clear I'm completely ignorant of compilers and all that, so I can't really wrap my mind around this issues I'm facing with the game crashing when I try to use audio).
18:42:25 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> (I was able to compile and run the game but the thing is still obsessed with running pulseaudio and the OS i'm using has like problems with it)
18:43:55 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Right now I'm having execution time crashes due to pulseaudio vs alsa
18:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i would assume that's some secondary library
18:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> so, like openttd links to some sound library, and that sound library links to pulse
18:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably tell ./configure to compile without sound
18:45:30 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> So, what I found out is that if I do in a terminal:" export SDL_AUDIODRIVER; openttd "
18:45:32 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> The game runs
18:45:35 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> and has sound
18:45:49 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> but If I reboot and try to run just "openttd" the thing crashes horribly
18:46:20 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> And it gives me that
18:46:22 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could put that export in your .profile
18:46:46 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> So the whole system runs in alsa?
18:46:53 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> or whatever that export does
18:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> export just sets the variable
18:47:17 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> " export SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa; openttd "
18:47:29 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> maybe I can make an .sh script just for openttd
18:47:46 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Is that the "best solution" or just a band-aid solution?
18:47:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make a script, or an alias, you can leave out the export, just "VAR=value program"
18:48:22 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of "export VAR=value; program"
18:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the export makes it remember it for future runs
18:48:51 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> so line1: "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa" line2: "openttd"
18:48:55 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> in the script
18:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> no, all in one line
18:49:36 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah okay.
18:49:48 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> no ; or anything similar?
18:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> with a space inbetween
18:50:18 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Still, it's just a band-aid solution, right?
18:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but i do this stuff all the time
18:50:44 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay, second issue
18:50:54 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I have no music. And I can't find any debug information about it
18:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> like, in steam -> settings -> start options
18:51:15 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Like, the playlist just skips songs like crazy
18:51:28 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> as if it couldn't play any song
18:51:46 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It has something to do with midi libs?
18:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so, you got the songs installed, and selected the music set in the menu?
18:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you likely miss timidity
18:52:03 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay will look for it
18:52:18 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I have fluidsynth
18:52:23 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> has something to do with that?
18:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you can use that, but you have to add some command line option, which i don't know
18:52:54 <Eddi|zuHause> like, -m extmidi:somestuff
18:52:57 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> lets see
18:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (you can add that to your script)
18:53:41 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> maybe on the ./configure
18:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that should be a run time option
18:54:06 <LordAro> fluidsynth support is a compile time thing, iirc
18:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can set it in the .cfg
18:54:16 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I have this on the configure: enables icu components for locale specific string sorting
18:54:17 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --static-icu try to link statically (libsicu instead of
18:54:17 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> libicu; can fail as the new
18:54:34 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --with-midi=midi define which midi-player to use
18:54:35 <LordAro> extmidi support might have been (temporarily) removed in 1.9.x, i can't remember
18:54:46 <nielsm> extmidi is still supported
18:54:49 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --with-midi-arg=arg define which args to use for the
18:54:49 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> midi-player
18:54:49 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --with-libtimidity[="pkg-config libtimidity"]
18:54:49 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> enables libtimidity support
18:54:49 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --with-fluidsynth enables fluidsynth support
18:54:49 <Eddi|zuHause> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: that looks wrong
18:54:59 <nielsm> it's just not default if you have any other midi support
18:55:08 <nielsm> --with-midi is extmidi
18:55:31 <Eddi|zuHause> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: ok, you probably want --with-fluidsynth then
18:55:41 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay will try that and see if it blows up
18:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> (i would assume it picks that up automatically if installed, though)
18:56:23 <nielsm> fluidsynth is the general best choice for softsynth midi on linux
18:56:32 <nielsm> (and there isn't any good choice for external/hardware synths)
18:57:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i should get a board with an ISA slot and see how my sound blaster AWE32 still works? :)
18:57:24 <nielsm> it won't be useful on linux
18:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i once installed some soundblaster driver in win3.11 in my dosbox
18:58:29 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> hmm I am confused by the fact that when I try to do "make" again after another "make" the whole things errors out
18:59:07 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Like, if I compile with a fresh folder of the source code, it compiles fine, but If I do one compilation and then try to make another one it doesn't like it.
18:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should switch to HardOS? :p
18:59:19 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Any command to "clean up" the folder and leave it pristine?
18:59:46 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> it "works" but doesn't work at the same time
18:59:52 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Like, doesn't clean completely
19:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> there may be "make distclean" or something
19:00:12 <milek7> weird, what error with incremential make?
19:00:51 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah god dammit I'll just erase everything and start again
19:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there's probably some git invocation that deletes all files that wouldn't be there on a clean checkout
19:02:08 <milek7> make mrproper clean everything
19:02:32 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I'll see if that makes the trick milek
19:02:54 <milek7> but it definitely should work without deleting everything each time ;P
19:03:30 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> bye Eddi|zuHause , thanks
19:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe permissions or timestamps are messed up?
19:03:37 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make[1]: Entering directory '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/objs/extra_grf'
19:03:37 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make[1]: *** No rule to make target '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/bin/baseset/orig_dos.obg', needed by 'all'. Stop.
19:03:37 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make[1]: Leaving directory '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/objs/extra_grf'
19:03:37 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make: *** [Makefile:56: all] Error 1 "
19:03:44 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> that's the error if you want to know
19:03:57 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> There's no permissions Eddi|zuHause , easyos runs as root
19:04:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a horrible idea
19:04:16 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Ah, maybe
19:04:22 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> But I don't really care haha
19:04:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll really go now, or i'll have nightmares
19:05:18 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Sure thing, good night/day to you
19:10:27 <milek7> about disabling pulseaudio, you could probably compile sdl without it
19:10:44 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I could but that would break firefox
19:11:01 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Because the devs of firefox decided that dropping alsa alltogether was a good idea.
19:12:24 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I only need that OpenTTD denies its existence.
19:13:22 <milek7> firefox depends on sdl?
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19:13:46 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay I have limits on what I know :)
19:15:12 <milek7> anyway, maybe pulse deserved hate 10 years ago, but since few years it usually works ;P
19:15:39 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It makes me unhappy
19:17:24 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I think I will go with the band-aid solution and try to get fluidsynth to work on the midi
19:18:46 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> on the help line at -/configure that puts: " --with-midi=midi " what are the possible options for "midi"?
19:20:04 <nielsm> the name of a program that will take the name of a midi file as a commandline parameter and play it
19:24:29 * andythenorth plays a game with a perfect map
19:24:36 <andythenorth> maybe regions aren't needed :P
19:24:47 <andythenorth> I generated about 30 maps to get this one :)
19:25:15 <andythenorth> unrelated, goose industry?
19:31:43 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ok, fluidsynth in you I trust
19:36:27 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It failed to me :(
19:45:50 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:51:44 <FLHerne> Idea: script that inspects the generated map after each stage (terrain, towns, industries, [?]) and accepts/rejects it
19:51:54 <FLHerne> If rejected, rollback to the previous step and try again
19:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like custom map generators on steroids
19:52:50 <FLHerne> No, for town/industry placement it would be easier to just have a script to do it...
19:54:10 <nielsm> well, how about just adding a map preparation phase to GS then, where it can execute as many ticks as it wants before players get control?
19:54:28 <nielsm> and allow it to snapshot the map during that to roll back
19:54:45 <nielsm> then the GS will be creating the towns and industries itself
19:55:21 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: i think the idea was to not go through the hassle of creating the towns and industries yourself, just check whether it looks good
19:55:34 <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause yes I get that
19:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (not sure how that latter part would be easier)
19:55:44 <nielsm> but I reject that idea :)
19:55:51 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: That was the idea, and then I realised it was stupid :P
19:56:07 <FLHerne> Except maybe for terrain
19:56:28 <nielsm> instead of re-rolling a dice until you get a 6, just turn the dice to show 6 yourself :P
19:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> a terrain preview on the main menu might be useful
19:56:37 <FLHerne> Because terrain-gen in a script would be slow, and the current generator is capable of making nice landscapes
19:56:58 <nielsm> yes the terrain get should not be up to GS, that would be inefficient
19:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want custom terrain, just make a heightmap
19:57:45 <FLHerne> Side note: I think some script methods to examine larger areas of terrain might be useful for other things?
19:58:03 <FLHerne> e.g. AI pathfinders are very slow currently
19:58:23 <milek7> factorio-like map preview?
19:58:24 <FLHerne> (and tend to limit the search space to compensate, and produce crap paths)
19:58:58 <nielsm> I'm trying to think of what large-scale map inspection would look like and not sure I can think of anything really great
19:59:12 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: i don't think factorio invented map previews
19:59:46 <andythenorth> what problem are we solving again?
19:59:50 <nielsm> like pick a center and radius and get some statistics on that? lowest and highest point, number of water tiles, number of flat tiles, number of slope tiles?
20:03:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i once tried to make a gamescript that runs a triangulation on the map to find out which cities neighbour each other, but on large maps, that wasn't done by the time the game was handed off to the user
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20:04:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (mainly because i placed signs for debugging purposes, and placing a sign ends your tick)
20:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (that would potentially become a problem if you want to place objects as border fences or something)
20:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause> (or road connections)
20:05:15 <FLHerne> nielsm: Yes, that's about what I was thinking
20:06:16 <FLHerne> nielsm: Basically, anything that would help pick a high-level route ("there's a dip in the hills around here")
20:07:28 <FLHerne> Current AI pathfinding seems to poke around tile-by-tile over a small area, until saying "sod it" and building straight over a mountain
20:07:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably want some tree structure for that kind of analysis
20:08:09 <FLHerne> Or tries to build routes that make no sense, because the industries are close in principle but on widely-separated islands
20:08:52 <FLHerne> So it either (a) builds a hugely expensive bridge, or (b) invests a huge amount of time determining that it /needs/ one and then gives up
20:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the exact details of your data structure probably depends on the specific problem you're trying to solve
20:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> things to consider: a) building up that structure probably takes some time, so your AI might still spend ages inactive, and b) other players terraforming might make your data invalid
20:10:58 <nielsm> a full map quadtree constantly maintained by all terrain operations!
20:11:05 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: My thought was that it would be better to have some routines (and their underlying datastructures) implemented in OTTD C++ as part of the API
20:11:25 <nielsm> could be combined with a complete terrain rewrite to store the terrain in blocks instead of one contiguous array
20:11:56 <Eddi|zuHause> concerning b) you might want to have a data structure that allows easy recovery from local changes. like, maybe a heap?
20:11:56 <FLHerne> To largely mitigate your (a) and (b), and any such datastructure could potentially be reused for other game calculations
20:12:30 <FLHerne> e.g. for quickly ruling-out impossible paths for ships
20:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> we don't really have that :p
20:16:41 <Wolf01> andythenorth: steam-turbine locomotive with huge running cost at low speed?
20:17:25 <Wolf01> But at high speed really low running cost
20:19:40 <Wolf01> While economical at speed, the locomotive was highly uneconomical at lower speed. The turbine used less steam than conventional locomotives above 30 mph (48 km/h), but below that the locomotive used too much steam and fuel.
20:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "uneconomical" doesn't mean the cost actually increased at low speed
20:24:11 <Wolf01> I read that at high speed the costs are comparable to diesel ones
20:24:41 <Wolf01> *were, since there are no more of them
20:26:14 <andythenorth> so I have added some industrial trams to Road Hog using NRT
20:26:25 <andythenorth> but somehow they're less appealing than the HEQS ones
20:26:28 <andythenorth> not sure why yet
20:29:50 <andythenorth> or that the names are really really long?
20:29:55 <andythenorth> or that they're slow?
20:34:30 <andythenorth> composable RVs? o_O
20:34:50 <supermop_work> andythenorth: ive had the same problem with industrial trams
20:35:02 <supermop_work> names and menu get way too long
20:36:46 <supermop_work> composing like trains would solve, but then its like do trams want to be different from trains?
20:38:40 <andythenorth> so HEQS trams work though?
20:38:49 <andythenorth> and Road Hog pre-NRT trams worked great
20:39:04 <andythenorth> grf design must evolve!
20:40:00 <supermop_work> heqs is manageble
20:41:18 <supermop_work> road hog is ok-ish but you don't have quite as many permutations?
20:42:15 <supermop_work> heqs collapsed rake length and wagon type into refits
20:42:59 <andythenorth> and Hog the trams all look very different
20:43:08 <andythenorth> also, in game they are all 16/8
20:43:19 <andythenorth> so they fill road stops really well without blocking
20:45:13 <supermop_work> tbh i used to care more about efficient road stop fitting but i've come to be ambivalent
20:46:28 <supermop_work> in mopRVs idk if ended up even trying
20:49:22 <supermop_work> 16/8 or longer is useful if put a stop in front of a tram depot as an escapement for lazy timetabling
20:51:11 <supermop_work> 8/8 or less is useful as you can have two routes through a stop without worrying if the timetables coincide at the shared stop
20:53:53 <supermop_work> for mop rv i ended up just only doing open wagons and box cars
20:55:56 <andythenorth> currently I'm only building feldbahn because I have to for testing :P
20:56:07 <andythenorth> otherwise I'd use the town freight trams, they're faster :P
20:57:18 <andythenorth> and the town freight trams look cool
20:57:25 <andythenorth> the feldbahn are just small trains
21:01:12 <Samu> which plane profits more?
21:03:51 <andythenorth> potato / potato?
21:06:00 <Samu> there should be a profit calculator somewhere
21:08:46 <_dp_> by almost you mean to planes?
21:09:31 <_dp_> I felt to point to bother with charts for planes :p
21:09:36 <_dp_> A21 is the best, end of story :p
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21:12:00 <nielsm> mail should be paying better than passengers, I think?
21:12:08 <nielsm> for same amount transported over same distance in same time
21:12:55 <nielsm> but mail also weighs 4x more per unit than passengers
21:13:08 <Samu> 3 different AIs, 3 different choices
21:13:57 <Samu> oh, the other is 85 pass, 10 mail
21:14:09 <Samu> but it has low reliability
21:15:06 <_dp_> Darvin 300 and dinger 200 are worth considering if your airports are clogging, others just suck
21:16:03 <Samu> dinger 200 is a large plane, this choice is only small planes
21:16:16 <_dp_> mail is technically more profitable I guess but there is much less mail and if you already build an airport you may transport passengers as well
21:17:03 <Samu> there's only these 3 planes available past 2051
21:17:57 <Samu> my AI went with the most reliable, lower running cost 75/10
21:18:53 <_dp_> but it's prety pointless to use small unless they're not available
21:19:06 <_dp_> which can only happen on citymania as it's not a vanilla setting
21:19:44 <_dp_> *unless big ones are not available
21:20:10 <Samu> big ones are available, but in AI maps, it's rare to have space for large airports
21:20:45 <Samu> roads everywhere, hills, houses, they tend to build commuters often
21:20:49 <_dp_> Samu, build more small ones
21:21:29 <_dp_> crashes don't matter much, you can just advertise after it
21:22:25 <nielsm> it doesn't match the description in the comment, as far as I can tell
21:22:34 <frosch123> hmm, i guess it should not have stated with simutrans by looking into the settings gui.... why can you select the savegame version?
21:23:49 <nielsm> previous version looks much more like the described algorithm
21:24:20 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Hey people who's smarter than me, do libraries (such as libtimidity) have dependencies?
21:24:38 <nielsm> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: yes, but usually they're taken care of automatically by pkgconfig
21:24:57 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Is there a way to "check" the dependencies of a library?
21:25:31 <nielsm> you'd get loader/linker errors if they aren't satisfied
21:25:41 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay, great then nielsm
21:25:52 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Back to bashing my head against the keyboard :)
21:26:15 <nielsm> usually something like "symbol not found __blabla_xxx"
21:27:48 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay I made what I needed and it didn't blow up so far :D
21:28:19 <nielsm> okay after some more thinking about it: no, the cargo payment algorithm is not wrong :)
21:28:24 <_dp_> nielsm, const int days_over_days2 = max(days_over_days1 - days2, 0);
21:28:37 <nielsm> I got things flipped around in my head :)
21:28:37 <_dp_> also iirc days2 add to days1
21:29:49 <nielsm> yeah it's a combination of three linear functions with split points at days1 and days1+days2
21:30:43 <nielsm> well, four, since it bottoms out at a minimum value
21:31:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: simutrans has powerlines, even tunnels for powerlines
21:32:17 <andythenorth> can we change the cargo payment algorithm? :P
21:33:28 * andythenorth wants to give some vehicles a bonus
21:34:06 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make planes pay double, they are nerfed
21:34:07 <_dp_> andythenorth, set slower aging?
21:34:20 * frenchiveruti_EasyOS was being sarcastic
21:34:33 <Samu> counting number of 1st places in the last 24 quarters
21:34:40 <andythenorth> _dp_: but I don't want to play huge maps
21:34:47 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> hmm "was being" is awful grammar, right?
21:34:47 <andythenorth> bit limiting imho
21:34:53 <nielsm> andythenorth actually yes, you can make a cb on a cargotype
21:35:04 <nielsm> then the cargo payment algorithm is completely overridden
21:35:07 <andythenorth> yes, can't inspect the vehicle though
21:35:10 <nielsm> but of course you can't know what vehicle was used
21:35:25 <nielsm> vehicles can only affect the rate at which days_in_transit increases
21:35:46 <nielsm> but, if you control both the vehicles and the cargo, then...!!
21:36:01 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> This is so sad, I can't make the damn music work, even with timidity. :/
21:36:08 <andythenorth> strikes me that cur_vehicle_multiplier * cs-> current_payment would do it :P
21:36:49 <glx> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: does timidity works by itself ?
21:37:21 <andythenorth> my suggestion is a single line change, and a trivial cb result in newgrf
21:37:28 <andythenorth> no breaking savegames
21:37:30 <Samu> or RailwAI: 5 , WormAI: 4 - they tie in a quarter in first place
21:37:33 <andythenorth> multiplier defaults to 1
21:37:59 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> glx, I am not sure how to check that, but when I run "timidity" on a terminal it doesn't throw an error
21:38:11 <_dp_> andythenorth, adds a ui nonsense thogh adding "cheating factor" to each vehicle :p
21:38:29 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I even compiled (successfully, oddly enough) libtimidity, and still the game won't play the music for me.
21:38:34 <glx> you should try to play midi directly from the terminal
21:38:58 <Samu> do you really want music to play? :o
21:39:01 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> testing that out right now
21:39:03 <andythenorth> if I make a vehicle with 9999 capacity in 8/8, is that cheating :P
21:39:11 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I want to make it work Samu :)
21:39:26 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> and c'mon, funk town <3
21:40:29 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> My brain typed town because I was reading about towns
21:40:41 <nielsm> funk town, small central
21:41:34 <nielsm> I'm not tired of the original TT music after 25 years
21:41:35 <Samu> Delerium is so much different
21:41:57 <Samu> can't believe it's the same guys that make both projects
21:42:10 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay. This OS is the problem, there's no doubt about that.
21:42:20 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> GLib:ERROR:../../../glib/ghash.c:377:g_hash_table_lookup_node: assertion failed: (!g_atomic_ref_count_compare (&hash_table->ref_count, 0))
21:42:23 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Same error as the game.
21:42:28 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> With the sound issue.
21:42:43 * frenchiveruti_EasyOS flips his os
21:42:45 <nielsm> if you run timidity by itself?
21:43:05 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> yes nielsm if I do timidity <midi>.mid it throws that error
21:43:09 <_dp_> I just got a crazy idea of having vehicles that can change cargo type
21:43:15 <_dp_> basically moving industries
21:43:15 <nielsm> check if timidity's executable has a way to select audio output (i.e. switch it to alsa direct)
21:43:21 <_dp_> don't even ask what for xD
21:43:30 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> _dp_, isn't that already a thing?
21:43:40 <andythenorth> moving castle mod?
21:43:44 <glx> IIRC there's a command line switch for that
21:43:56 <_dp_> zombie apocalypse... everything has to be done on trains... coz logic :p
21:46:08 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> glx, yes, timidity -Os (alsa output)
21:46:11 <Samu> tried to listen to Synaesthesia - sounds similar to the old Delerium
21:46:25 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Even thought, the software is laughing at my face at this point hahaha
21:46:42 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It tells me it can't find a cfg file called "fluidr3_gm.cfg"
21:46:49 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> that should be in the same folder as timidity
21:46:54 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> maybe I'm missing something from the repo
21:47:24 <glx> the name of your OS is misleading ;)
21:47:42 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I blame Barry Kauler
21:48:03 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I'm just a regular joe who likes to break stuff and learn from it.
21:52:18 <Samu> and road ais can't build bridges over buoys
21:59:40 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> IT FUCKING WORKS
21:59:44 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> love y'all
22:02:21 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Now I realize that in order for the game to work on any new installment of this OS, I would have to ship it with midity, fluid-soundfont, and a shit ton of others hahaha
22:02:52 <glx> timidity should be part of the OS
22:02:54 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> There's no reward without effort, right?
22:03:06 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It is not, as you said, misleading name :)
22:03:27 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I'm lucky it uses debian repos
22:04:11 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> But oh well, it's just 240MB of ram when Idle
22:04:28 *** frenchiveruti_EasyOS has quit IRC
22:05:12 <glx> oh doing IRC as root, no a very good idea
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22:06:31 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> correction
22:06:38 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> 130MB of RAM on Idle
22:08:00 *** frenchiveruti_EasyOS has quit IRC
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22:13:49 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Ok, thanks guys I won't bother for a while
22:13:51 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> (for a while)
22:17:33 <Samu> tubular road bridges, 611 km/h
22:17:45 <Samu> but there's no 611 km/h road vehicles
22:19:17 <Samu> with the "realistic" acceleration model it should be funny to see
22:23:36 <Samu> but going at ultra speeds like 611 km/h
22:27:44 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> The Hover-Bus NewGRF?
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22:44:47 <andythenorth> so flat docks then peter1138? :D
22:49:06 <andythenorth> nielsm: in the fps meter, is cargodist / link graph all under 'cargo handling'?
22:49:48 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> So, a static build is the one that only uses the libraries inside the executable?
22:49:52 <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Or something like that?
22:50:00 <nielsm> no, link graph calculation generally doesn't get included
22:50:03 <nielsm> unless it goes over time
22:50:10 <nielsm> since it runs on a separate thread
22:50:44 * andythenorth curious about mac performance
22:50:56 <andythenorth> I have a game running at 33fps for some reason, with full animation on
22:51:28 <andythenorth> but other times I get 20fps
22:51:38 <andythenorth> mystery is mystifying :)
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23:14:36 <Samu> my AI can't fight back at long last
23:14:57 <Samu> being beaten more often than I'd like
23:15:39 <Samu> WormAI and RailwAI are fighting for 1st in profits
23:16:07 <Samu> LuDiAI AfterFix can't seem to make a comeback
23:16:28 <Samu> it can't create more vehicles, while the others can
23:19:41 <Samu> NoNoCAB can still make more vehicles, in theory it should be able to surpass blue
23:20:11 <Samu> but has been in 4th place for a long time already
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