IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-09-10
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10:30:55 <Samu> PASS is beating PASS & MAIL, and MAIL
10:32:37 <Samu> can't say I'm surprised, it's Hereford Leopard bus era, the mail truck engine is still the first model
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12:34:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sirkoz commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
13:56:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
13:58:04 <Eddi|zuHause> (i hope i didn't overstep any lines)
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14:04:22 <planetmaker> sound argument IMHO @ Eddi|zuHause
14:05:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
14:05:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
14:08:20 <planetmaker> 95/98 is not supported at least according to our download page
14:09:22 * andythenorth has a modest proposal
14:09:28 <andythenorth> officially support nothing :P
14:09:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't help anyone :p
14:09:51 <andythenorth> probably far too time consuming
14:10:03 <andythenorth> policies are only valuable as far as they save time
14:10:35 <andythenorth> is anyone in charge any more?
14:10:47 <andythenorth> I know rubidium isn't, and I thought truebrain might be, for a bit
14:10:55 <andythenorth> but now I'm not sure :)
14:11:05 <andythenorth> rotating presidency, like the EU? o_O
14:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> putting TrueBrain in charge of anything sounds like a bad idea :p
14:11:44 * andythenorth back to PECR, GDPR and ISO 27001
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16:10:01 <milek7> for the record, i checked 1.9.2 on winxp and sorting works fine
16:14:59 <nielsm> it probably depends on the compiler/stdlib used
16:15:31 <milek7> tested 32bit installer from openttd.org
16:16:17 <nielsm> okay so it actually works... impressive
16:16:40 <andythenorth> I dis-enjoyed the tone of the comment so I closed it
16:16:56 <andythenorth> I don't think it's lost in translation, I think it's just tedious angry entitlement
16:17:07 <andythenorth> if it was supposed to be lolz, the emoji was missing
16:17:08 <nielsm> the reporter probably read some smartypants guide about how to improve file system performance by disabling modification times recording
16:17:21 <nielsm> and is then surprised when applications that request the mtime of files gets nothing
16:17:24 <andythenorth> it's a waste of our time IMHO and no fun
16:17:31 <andythenorth> OpenTTD should be fun
16:17:38 <andythenorth> main criteria :P
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16:21:02 <andythenorth> milek7: thanks for checking though :)
16:23:13 <milek7> give me few minutes, i need to check that again ;P
16:24:41 <andythenorth> new modest proposal: support OS on the same basis as the OS vendor
16:24:49 <andythenorth> I think that's what we're doing for Apple already
16:24:59 <andythenorth> last 2 major revs
16:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a difference between "actively supported" and "if it happens to work, great"
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16:48:01 <nielsm> our readme file says windows is supported, but not which versions, it's reasonable to interpret that as just the versions supported by the vendor
16:48:30 <planetmaker> Then we should update the web page(s) :)
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16:54:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking about this
16:54:51 <andythenorth> we don't do 'supported' like a paid product, because all the reasons
16:55:18 <andythenorth> 'supported' AFAICT relates to the binaries we'll produce on the compile farm
16:55:30 <andythenorth> and then what compilers etc we'll work with
16:56:05 <andythenorth> which affects what we might take as a master PR (support / maintain for minority platforms)
16:56:25 <andythenorth> that's my impression from last 18 months anyway
16:57:02 <andythenorth> we seem to be naturally open to support, unless it affects (for example) C++ versions and standards, cmake, etc
16:57:14 <planetmaker> there's basically two levels of "supported": "provide binary" and "support with code, but don't provide binary"
16:57:40 <planetmaker> like "solaris" was never supported in binary - but there supposedly is all the code to make it work there w/o errors
16:57:42 <andythenorth> there's one level that's really important IMHO
16:58:21 <andythenorth> -> if a maintainer goes to effort for a minority platform on the understanding that we support it, then we need to drop it because of upstream reasons -> not going to go well
16:58:53 <andythenorth> I think we can be upfront about that, without in any way committing to fix all bugs for supported platform x, which is a different issue
16:59:16 <planetmaker> "active support" vs. "passive support"?
16:59:23 <andythenorth> something like that
16:59:43 <planetmaker> And yes, making that distinction might be good.
16:59:47 <andythenorth> 'our choices of coding standards, supported compilers etc is determined by support policy x'
17:00:04 <planetmaker> sounds already burocratic ;)
17:00:08 <andythenorth> 'we may accept PRs for other OSes, but with no guarantee of forwards compatibility'
17:00:14 <andythenorth> I know, it's bureacracy :(
17:01:16 <nielsm> nobody on the dev team cares about making sure everything is flawless on XP, therefore nothing is tested there and nothing is done about bug reports about it
17:01:27 <planetmaker> Just simple: "We actively develop for currently supported versions of Windows, Linux and OSX. We accept pull-requests to support other platforms, but cannot assure to maintain them
17:02:07 <planetmaker> ...currently vendor-supported versions of...
17:02:07 <andythenorth> for macOS it's already de-facto "we don't support versions of macOS that are no longer supported by Apple"
17:02:53 <planetmaker> for windows it's also the de-facto standard
17:03:01 <planetmaker> after all: no-one sane uses unsupported windoze
17:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's different for mac, because it's difficult to compile. but on windows, once it works, it probably keeps working.
17:03:22 <planetmaker> but "keeps working" is different from "we actively check that it works"
17:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i meant with my opening statement.
17:03:52 <andythenorth> we actively check nothing
17:03:57 <andythenorth> no guarantees etc
17:05:04 <andythenorth> MS is maybe simple, if anyone can make sense of the fact sheet
17:05:09 <andythenorth> Linux I have NFI :)
17:05:29 <andythenorth> *BSD, especially FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD NFI :)
17:05:41 <andythenorth> I used solaris once 22 years ago maybe
17:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> linux is too fractured, and we mostly rely on the downstream maintainers
17:06:47 <Eddi|zuHause> we only provide binaries for the most popular platforms, debian and ubuntu, but you can compile it on most other modern distros, and many distros include it
17:07:24 <andythenorth> if we can put a policy in a paste or gist, I will format it and put it in the website
17:07:39 <andythenorth> or even we could just have one support policy, in github,
17:20:10 <peter1139> "Assigned #7733 to @PeterN." < lol
17:20:59 <andythenorth> sounds like my day job
17:21:32 <andythenorth> 7733 is an outage report :P
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19:04:14 <milek7> it indeed doesn't work
19:04:14 <milek7> i got confused because it still sorts by name, and missed that it didn't sort correctly.. ;P
19:04:14 <milek7> trying to debug this i got completely sidetracked by FiosIsValidFile, which reads modification time from WIN32_FIND_DATA, and it is correct
19:04:14 <milek7> but FiosFileScanner doesn't use that data and reads once more, from _tstat, which as implemented in CRT uses kernel32.dll:GetFileInformationByHandleEx
19:04:16 <milek7> ..and as docs specify, "Minimum supported client: Windows Vista"
19:04:18 <milek7> and it doesn't crash outright because it uses GetProcAddress to resolve that symbol
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19:04:42 <milek7> i guess switching to *_xp toolchain would be more compatible
19:08:14 <frosch123> someone wants to do an interview with some american/romanian pupils?
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19:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause> what would that accomplish?
19:19:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: do they have a question? :)
19:19:55 <frosch123> no, they ask whether they may send question
19:20:13 <frosch123> but they want to write an article in their highscool magazine
19:21:05 <frosch123> though considering it's a highschool, they probably want to write about playing the game, not about deving it
19:21:34 <frosch123> so, maybe some goal server dude wants to advertise their community? :p
19:22:43 <frosch123> that's their "reference"
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19:33:24 <andythenorth> did anyone figure out the MS roadmap? o_O
19:33:33 <andythenorth> and is my suggested approach valid?
19:45:47 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:47:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
20:16:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation https://git.io/JemI7
20:43:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation https://git.io/JemLR
20:48:23 <andythenorth> FWIW ratings always trip me up
20:48:40 <andythenorth> I always allocate a train with about 1 month's capacity relative to industry production
20:48:52 <andythenorth> forgetting that I'll get at best about 0.69 of that
20:49:03 <andythenorth> doesn't really affect gameplay though
20:49:27 <andythenorth> I did play FIRS with 100% station rating for about a year, but it's potato / potato
20:54:40 <Samu> the last mail truck is only available from 2018 or 19, right?
20:55:50 <Samu> current results disappoint me
20:58:49 <Samu> on the bright side, it's actually interesting that MAIL is performing so well
20:59:31 <Samu> but I was expecting PASS&MAIL to be the better
20:59:35 <supermop_work> andythenorth: i usually build 1 mo capacity
20:59:56 <supermop_work> and accept that it will run slightly under utilized
21:00:15 <glx> PASS&MAIL should be better I think, maybe your code is wrong :)
21:01:07 <supermop_work> i think i messed up with bus introduction generations
21:01:43 <Samu> it's because engine models are better for PASS
21:02:25 <Samu> but still... PASS&MAIL should be at least 2nd place, it's 3rd
21:03:21 <Samu> it's the year 2009, superbus is coming, maybe now it'll get 2nd place
21:03:46 <Samu> and PASS will be even further ahead
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21:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> to all 3? :) <-- yes
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21:40:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
21:44:20 <nielsm> andythenorth: the MS lifecycle page tells nothing about XP because it's completely out of support :) it does tell that win7 will leave extended support january next year, so probably visual studio 2020 or 2021 will default to a runtime that targets win8.1 minimum
21:44:50 <andythenorth> can we use this information?
21:45:29 <andythenorth> does it help our cause?
21:45:44 <glx> windows 10 1803 will be phased out soon
21:45:46 <nielsm> it's difficult to beat people over the head with a rolled up paper that no longer exists :D
21:46:11 <nielsm> someone argued that MS released a patch for XP recently
21:46:36 <nielsm> that was for an extremely wormable exploit and was done to protect the internet at large from the idiots still running xp
21:46:38 <andythenorth> I have to deal with this crap sometimes for things like IE, and SSL
21:46:46 <andythenorth> and who supports what
21:47:00 <andythenorth> and historically my customer base are amongst the last to upgrade :P
21:48:13 <glx> I remember the time even 9x was present in msdn, but they removed all old versions from the docs
21:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> "the idiots still running xp" <-- and the companies that have machines built 20 years ago that they can neither update nor replace
21:49:03 <glx> there are still NT4 systems IIRC
21:50:03 <nielsm> majority of my users are in healthcare, and I can't remember when I last saw an XP machine in regular use
21:50:29 <nielsm> (only one I know of it an isolated VM used to access historical data from an ancient system, used a few times a year)
21:51:00 <glx> yeah I have an XP VM just for using my scanner
21:51:12 <glx> because the driver is 32bit only
21:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> a few years ago there was an airport in paris that had to shut down because they didn't find someone to maintain their win 3.1 system
21:52:53 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently the 3 people authorised/trained to handle it all were busy/on vacation
21:52:53 <glx> why renew something if it still works
21:53:22 <glx> new software is often broken
21:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, like win 10 updates that delete all your files :p
21:54:14 <glx> that's why COBOL is still in use in some places
21:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> they had an old XP-era server at my last company, that they were trying to phase out
21:55:44 <nielsm> well COBOL has two things going for it, it's common and it's business-oriented
22:07:23 <Samu> COmmon and Business-Oriented L
22:07:44 <nielsm> congratulations you win a peanut
22:09:54 <Samu> COBOL (/ˈkoʊbɒl, -bɔːl/; an acronym for "common business-oriented language")
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23:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i always knew Samu was a spambot
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