IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-08-13
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00:18:20 *** Thedarkb-X40 has joined #openttd
00:20:44 <Samu> Convoy -- trashing the competition
00:22:09 <Samu> 300 buses in 8 years, on the most difficult tileset
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10:57:21 <Wolf01> Hmmm... need to go full Rube Goldberg for the next lego creation
12:31:41 <Samu> eh... the more logic i put in the ai, the worse it becomes... :(
12:33:15 <Samu> I don't understand how Convoy can be so successful
12:33:45 <Samu> and still does obliterate everyone
12:36:28 <Samu> and the original LuDiAI performing mine does leave a sour taste
12:43:20 <planetmaker> Is there someone here who can and is willing to actually handle the organization of a public event which is either a gaming and/or AI challange? Time horizon 3-4 months
12:43:57 <planetmaker> Tasks are especially in making it known within the community and dealing with all kinds of stuff related to organization. We would have a sponsor with prices for such event...
12:53:41 <Samu> my immediate future is uncertain, I rather not commit to anything
12:56:52 <Wolf01> I'm a bit busy with lego events and job, which don't seem to mix well too
13:02:39 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 opened issue #7691: Infinite money exploit in multiplayer using shares and sending money back and forth https://git.io/fj5zX
13:20:51 <Wolf01> Lol, one of the possible fixes is to remove the feature
13:25:59 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7691: Infinite money exploit in multiplayer using shares and sending money back and forth https://git.io/fj5gt
13:43:01 <andythenorth> 7691 might look like a bug
13:43:03 <andythenorth> but it's realistic
13:43:34 <Wolf01> The problem is that you shouldn't be able to buy shares for $0
13:44:45 <Samu> disable giving money to companies, problem solved!
13:44:46 <andythenorth> but that's what they're worth at that point
13:45:38 <andythenorth> people really struggle to believe that money is simply invented
13:46:03 <Samu> it's not an exploit, it's a server with the setting left enabled
13:46:04 <andythenorth> by lending money, I create money
13:50:17 <Wolf01> Yes, but there is a thing to consider on that: the FakeCorp is... fake, doing this trick in RL will get you a fine or even worse
13:51:10 <Samu> i thought it was up to newgrfs to decide lending money to companies
13:51:18 <Samu> why is it even a setting
13:53:15 <planetmaker> it is a general setting which also works in vanilla OpenTTD
13:53:32 <planetmaker> but you can disable it... so that the exploit mentioned doesn't work
13:53:57 <planetmaker> as such, my personal view is: yes, it's an exploit. But disable the setting and problem solved
13:54:06 <Wolf01> Also, why selling shares generates money? From where? Who pays?
13:57:26 <planetmaker> if you can control two companies, you can have one buy shares of the other. Then transfer all your money to the other, then sell shares. Transfer money back. Rinse and repeat
13:57:42 <Wolf01> Yes, that's the exploit mentioned
13:58:58 <Wolf01> But if B value = 0 and I purchase shares at $0, then give B $10k and sell the shares (getting back $7k5) why B still have $10k?
14:09:09 <Samu> convoy has a trick, I knew there was something fishy there
14:10:29 <Samu> it doesn't start all vehicles at once, it builds the whole set of vehicles, but then starts one by one, each separated by a few days
14:11:01 <Wolf01> That's the way I play too
14:11:19 <Samu> this keeps cargo ratings in stations relatively higher than the competitors for longer
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14:13:00 <planetmaker> just spam enough vehicles that some vehicle is constantly loading. Then you don't need to worry about when to release vehicles
14:16:00 <LordAro> i wouldn't be opposed to just removing the "feature" entirely
14:17:07 <Samu> it amazes me how this "trick" keeps ratings always above 65%
14:17:19 <andythenorth> I am going to experiment with lunch
14:17:42 <Samu> no need for station spreading
14:18:09 <Samu> no statues, no advertising campaigns
14:21:15 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7685: Codechange: math functions - use cpp-style casts https://git.io/fj520
14:21:27 <Samu> management might be difficult if I try to implement something similar on my AI
14:22:59 <Samu> i'd have to make pathfinding timers much much shorter
14:24:04 <Samu> or risk having buses waiting for months stopped in depots
14:26:24 <planetmaker> LordAro, I thought of you organizing this aforementioned community event :)
14:26:45 <planetmaker> you have all the qualifications for that, including knowledge on AI programming
14:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> Also, why selling shares generates money? From where? Who pays? <-- maybe ask greece, ireland, iceland?
14:27:28 <planetmaker> on? of? about? over? prepositions suck :|
14:29:52 <planetmaker> I'm dead serious. I consider you the most qualified person in the whole community
14:30:50 <planetmaker> And I think this challenge or event is a good chance for some outreach and excitement
14:31:30 <planetmaker> details for sure can be discussed with the sponsor
14:33:14 <Samu> AroAI bankrupts quite early
14:33:23 <LordAro> i've not really done anything with AIs since 2012
14:33:32 <LordAro> admittedly it's not changed much, but still
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14:34:24 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7691: Infinite money exploit in multiplayer using shares and sending money back and forth https://git.io/fj526
14:34:38 <planetmaker> it's not like you're required to write an AI. Just to ... generally know what to look for. Give people pointers. Make them aware of the event / competition. Do some outreach / community work so people know about it and get excited :D
14:35:17 <planetmaker> You know still well enough easily setup a somewhat automated AI test...
14:35:22 <LordAro> the latter... unknown :p
14:36:43 <planetmaker> And point is... you can very well outsource parts, too. Activate people from reddit, from other servers to participate. Perceive it as an competition between server owner communities... just as an idea :)
14:36:53 * andythenorth experiments with lunch
14:37:35 * planetmaker experimented earlier with goulash... successfully :P
14:38:09 <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately i don't have any gulasch nearby
14:38:11 <planetmaker> @LordAro, one key probably is to get many people involved, to spread the burdon
14:40:12 <planetmaker> well... not burden. But delegating some work or tasks :)
14:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause> if you talk AI competitions, there's a name that's haunting me in my dreams... don't make me say it...
14:44:38 <LordAro> there are occasional dates that don't work for some reason
14:44:55 <LordAro> planetmaker: well, i'll have to have a think
14:47:52 <planetmaker> @Eddi|zuHause, yes... for some reason I don't know either some days don't work...
14:49:18 <planetmaker> @LordAro, please do. Don't be intimidated. It's very likely a joyful thing (from my wwottdgd experiences etc)
14:49:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm not a webdev, but that's probably the point where i'd skim some server logs for script errors
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15:55:21 <Samu> GetCargoProduction is very misleading
15:55:42 <Samu> I see more and more AIs checking for GetCargoAcceptance instead
15:56:18 <Samu> that's how they build near the big houses
15:57:42 <Samu> my AI checks for CargoProduction, and it merely counts the number of houses with population
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16:07:15 <Samu> yeah... CargoAcceptance, computes both what cargo type it accepts and the amount
16:07:48 <Samu> big houses usually also produce more passengers, but this shouldn't be the rule
16:08:16 <Samu> I should use GetCargoProduction to compute production, not GetCargoAcceptance
16:08:55 <Samu> big houses ~ big acceptance
16:13:10 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on pull request #7684: Fix: saving crash.sav when disconnected from network game https://git.io/fj5Vu
16:13:11 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas closed pull request #7684: Fix: saving crash.sav when disconnected from network game https://git.io/fjQtu
16:25:51 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7691: Infinite money exploit in multiplayer using shares and sending money back and forth https://git.io/fj5VS
16:26:00 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on pull request #7685: Codechange: math functions - use cpp-style casts https://git.io/fj5V9
16:55:45 <Samu> should I report this as an issue?
16:57:25 <nielsm> well, human players don't have any direct way of getting a building population or mail generation rate either
16:57:36 <nielsm> they can just guess whether the building generates something
16:58:15 <nielsm> otoh an AI can't look at the visual size of a building and estimate whether it's a small or large one
16:59:58 <nielsm> but also, town buildings can implement a cargo generation callback which makes it impossible to know how much it will actually generate anyway
17:07:28 <Samu> i was looking for it to return something like house population
17:09:37 <Samu> a fraction of it, perhaps
17:14:33 <nielsm> pop divided by 32, rounded up, would also get you a value 1-8
17:23:22 <Samu> but api doesn't have access to hs->population
17:24:11 <Samu> oh, u mean the whole town
17:28:07 <Samu> GetPopulation and GetHouseCount
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17:42:09 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7690: Fix: RemoveAirport function now returns with 'Aircraft in the way' error message as it should be. https://git.io/fj5rn
17:42:26 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7690: Fix: RemoveAirport function now returns with 'Aircraft in the way' error message as it should be. https://git.io/fj7Zo
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21:48:32 <Samu> just implemented the convoy trick on my AI
21:50:16 <Samu> but the results so far are too impressive
22:07:32 <acklen> where's this SuperSamuAI?
22:14:20 <Samu> RailwAI does have a trick of his own too
22:14:54 <Samu> but his strategy is building short routes to deliver as much cargo as possible
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22:18:39 <Samu> profits are slightly decreasing over time
22:18:56 <Samu> how long can I hold leading profits... hmm
22:21:35 <Samu> convoy and railwai ahead now
22:23:26 <Samu> oh, right, the 2-year phase is over
22:23:41 <Samu> im already selling negative profit vehicles
22:24:01 <Samu> maybe, just maybe that will help improve it
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22:30:55 <TrueBrain> owh boy, we have a serious problem .. they recorded info@openttd.org watching porn .... and now we have to pay 2000 euro ... oh-oh .... who watched porn via info@openttd.org?!
22:31:21 <frosch123> it was sent to all mails
22:31:48 <frosch123> but it's in dutch, so it wasn't me :p
22:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a scam
22:37:20 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: it was me
22:37:37 <glx> TrueBrain: mine is in their list too
22:42:19 <andythenorth> send them 4000 euro
22:53:09 <Samu> the original LuDiAI is the white line
22:53:20 <Samu> i'm finally doing better than the original
23:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> so... someone gave me a monitor he wanted to get rid of, because "it was too yellow"...
23:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i got a little bit close to matching the colours to my normal monitor, but not quite there...
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