IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-05-08
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00:02:15 <frosch123> i forgot, was there a release on WITH!! monday, or was that only planned and then missed?
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01:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> why would a newspaper website suddenly have the top 4 articles be about the same thing?
01:30:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "[...] which is a true testament to how much Microsoft loves Linux!" ... i really fear what will come next...
01:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> this immediately raises a question: can you run wine in wsl?
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06:56:16 <NotSYL> I want to apologize for getting angry at this IRC over something that I did not realize was outside their control. Please unban me (SimYouLater), or if you cannot, tell me I am unwelcome and I will leave voluntarily.
08:02:46 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] GabdaZM commented on pull request #7025: Add #6887: Option to show zone inside local authority boundary of towns https://git.io/fjcKY
08:33:47 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost https://git.io/fjcKK
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11:32:58 <peter1138> Slightly early for lunch.
11:35:07 <andythenorth> it will be by the time I get off my arse and go downstairs
11:35:15 <andythenorth> all the food is downstairs
11:37:35 <peter1138> I had a croissant for breakfast. Pretty nice.
12:38:04 <andythenorth> oof I failed at elevenses
12:38:08 <andythenorth> more like twelveses
12:44:31 <andythenorth> of judgement, and of execution
12:48:57 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph https://git.io/fjc3i
12:56:03 <peter1138> Not sure "already exists in ... Locomotion" is a relevant factor.
12:56:10 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph https://git.io/fjc3i
12:57:01 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph https://git.io/fjcXM
12:59:55 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph https://git.io/fjcXH
13:00:18 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph https://git.io/fjcX7
13:03:14 <peter1138> I just had twelveses. One crisp :p
13:04:17 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph https://git.io/fjc3i
13:09:17 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph https://git.io/fjcXN
13:11:21 <andythenorth> buying van insurance is dull
13:18:37 <peter1138> Maybe we need that to make nmlc better :p
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13:30:30 <peter1138> Is it lunch time now?
13:40:24 <Heiki> many keyboards have a small gap between F8 and F9; hereby I suggest adding an F8½ key there so that we can have a hotkey for building traways
13:40:53 <andythenorth> I have a stupid touchbar, I could actually do that :P
13:41:01 <andythenorth> mac emojibar support? o_O
13:41:39 <peter1138> We could do what Elite Dangerous seems to do every update... wipe out all the control settings...
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15:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Heiki: well, technically, the keycodes go to like F40 or so
16:04:38 <Eddi|zuHause> never heard of it
16:05:41 <Artea> the graphics (for the time it came out)
16:05:49 <Artea> the story, the characters
16:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i also never had any nintendo stuffs
16:09:21 <Artea> just wish had a SNES Classic
16:09:29 <Artea> so can play Lufia on TV
16:14:02 <Artea> want it, Eddi|zuHause ?
16:14:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
16:14:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the whole point of retro games is that you pick games that remind you of your childhood...
16:15:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i have literally no connection to that game...
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16:37:02 <Samu> every AI is having a hard time
16:42:08 <Samu> Convoy and Terron are the two AIs that are doing better in all this
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16:48:20 <Samu> Im a bit surprised by Convoy, honestly
16:55:00 <Alberth> it's doing less worse than the others
16:55:48 <Samu> it feels unmaintained, buggy even
16:56:04 <Samu> many stopped busses in depots for apparently no reason
17:01:52 <Samu> sometimes no management is better than any management, I've come to notice that
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17:02:52 <Samu> but terron is quite the opposite of convoy
17:03:38 <Samu> sells vehicles in every 2 years or something ,I dunno, but seems to do well for him
17:04:51 <Alberth> they must be doing something right :)
17:05:25 <Samu> DumbAI, an AI that only transports coal trucks
17:05:48 <Samu> it even crashes in desert / toyland because of no coal
17:06:00 <Samu> just tells me coal is imba
17:06:09 <Samu> it's a very rudimentar AI
17:14:15 <glx> coal is the easy money maker
17:16:08 <andythenorth> pax is an easy moneymaker, bi-directional
17:17:56 <_dp_> pax still better though unless towns are tiny
17:19:26 <_dp_> coz it's much faster to build than 2way coal
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18:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so what's special about that?
18:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> also, how am i supposed to use a computer when a cat sits right in front of the screen, making no signs of moving any time soon?
18:16:51 <Alberth> either type blind, or give up
18:16:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the overall proportions
18:17:55 <Alberth> alternatively, move the screen high enough such that the cat has a good spot under it without disturbing you
18:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that's solving half the problem... it also occupies space i'd normally put the keyboard on
18:20:13 <Alberth> right, perhaps add some office things there so the cat doesn't want to sit there again?
18:21:43 <Alberth> she might find a spot that is even more troubling though :p
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18:35:40 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, the problem is "solved"... as soon as i left the room, the cat moved from the desk... to the chair :p
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18:49:37 <andythenorth> peter1138: so are you -1 to using sprite layers where not essential?
18:49:42 * andythenorth about to do intermodal containers :P
18:52:43 <V453000> wot :D I'm about to use all 4 layers on all wagons
18:52:56 <V453000> andythenorth: I've never seen that.
18:53:14 <V453000> the second one is cool
18:53:51 <peter1138> andythenorth, don't ask me, I've never benchmarked it. It's obviously going to be doing more work though.
18:53:54 <V453000> is the drawing going to go nuts with 4 layers or?
18:55:01 <andythenorth> probably nobody knows
18:55:19 <andythenorth> I was going to do intermodal containers in layers, then I can share the sprites across wagons
18:55:22 <andythenorth> and have a faster compile
18:57:35 <andythenorth> it's harder than I thought, because I have to composite front and rear of wagon over the containers
18:57:44 <V453000> faster compile, I just care about future friendliness, I believe adding a bunch more support for new FIRS5 cargoes is easier through code if I have 10 wagon classes
18:57:47 <andythenorth> so I have to draw masks and generate some extra sprites
18:58:03 <V453000> unless the container has holes in it :)
18:58:19 <andythenorth> different shaped wagons :P
18:58:29 <V453000> yeah, that kind of variety is nice
18:58:34 <andythenorth> so you don't composite all your sprites yet V453000? o_O
18:58:36 <V453000> but costly work-wise :)
18:58:42 <andythenorth> but you totally have the skills :P
18:59:00 <V453000> in subway I have been drawing blue alpha over my flatbd wagons :D
18:59:08 <V453000> preparing them so I could do the code part some day
18:59:33 <andythenorth> composited cargos means MOAR WAGONS is ez
19:00:08 <V453000> eh skills, for example I was planning for my now-not-happening train set that wagons would not have dedicated loading stages, I would draw 9 stages and for example 1st gen wagons would only get stages 1-3, 2nd gen 1-5, 3rd gen 1-7 etc
19:00:15 <V453000> so that the later gens look fuller and more capacity
19:00:33 <V453000> but that's cute theory, actually drawing it in a way to make this work and function properly I am a bit sceptical about
19:01:02 <V453000> for example, having heaps clearly and completely overlap the further away wall of the hopper wagon is really important
19:01:05 <V453000> and that's quite some precision
19:01:20 <andythenorth> I do masks and crap
19:01:28 <andythenorth> it took ages to set up, but is super scalable
19:01:47 <V453000> for now I will stay conservative and just do layers + recolouring but no masks+full cargo sprites which are overdrawn by wagon part in top layer
19:02:05 <V453000> well I would probably do masks if I were doing it in 3D
19:03:05 <V453000> layers + recolouring already means that for example hoppers get 1 empty wagon + 1 cargo sprite in 3 loading stages... that's only 4 spritesheets. I can see myself immediately trying to draw 3 varieties for all of them, and that alone would majorly improve how it looks
19:03:24 <V453000> randoms which just change stripes or alter how the heaps in hoppers look are amazing
19:03:34 <andythenorth> random hopper cargos :D
19:03:38 * andythenorth hasn't done that yet
19:03:42 <V453000> and once you have the 1st sprite it's not that much work
19:04:00 <V453000> the daunting part is when you have varieties, loading stages, and 30 different cargoes done manually
19:04:08 <V453000> when a cargo is just a recolour table, damn
19:04:37 <V453000> and there is one more thing, though quite specific for NUTS - for example my building material wagons are usually yellow iirc
19:04:41 <V453000> but goods wagons are gray
19:04:50 <V453000> that means that they are completely separate and can't be combined
19:05:02 <V453000> but for example YETI and I believe some versions of FIRS didn't have goods
19:05:15 <V453000> yet the building materials didn't use containers etc
19:05:40 <V453000> if I have layers, I can easily define which cargoes can be on the flatbed without having to duplicate sprites just to change the colour of the wagon base
19:05:44 <andythenorth> oh the devzone cert expired?
19:06:30 <andythenorth> repainted in compile
19:06:52 <andythenorth> I have missed V453000
19:06:56 <andythenorth> automate all things!
19:19:04 <Samu> did not replace his old busses
19:20:32 <Samu> Tried to play Path of Exile with 24 OpenTTDs open
19:22:02 <Samu> i want a new cpu, a 32 core would suffice
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19:25:39 <Samu> I can't do anything with the computer
19:26:00 <Samu> must wait for the ais to complete £10M
19:26:13 <Samu> ewww... reading books...
19:26:31 <Samu> unless it's something I really want to read, no thx
19:27:13 <peter1138> Read a book you really want a read...
19:28:36 <Samu> most successful Ais, failing
19:28:51 <Samu> i got a feeling, no one is gonna finish
19:29:08 <LordAro> read a book on testing
19:31:13 <peter1138> Hmm, such a long list of parties.
19:32:31 <peter1138> Change UK - The Independent Group, Conservative and Unionist Party, Green Party, Labour Party, Liberal Democrats, The Brexit Party, The Socialist Party of Great Britain, UK European Union Party (UKEUP), UK Independence Party (UKIP), and... three independents.
19:40:55 <peter1138> Nah, too busy mountainbiking.
19:41:04 <peter1138> Which I am about to get ready for.
19:41:24 <peter1138> Hmm, 90% chance of rain O_o
19:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "UKEUP" is that intentionally close to "UKIP"?
19:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: there are some 30 odd parties up for vote in germany
19:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause> of which like 13 made it in last time, after a high court overturned both a 5% and a 3% entry barrier
19:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> 5% barrier is usual for elections in germany, to avoid a too fractured parliament. but the court said that argument doesn't count for the eu parliament
19:51:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you need like 0.6% for one seat
19:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> (this number will be different for each EU member state, as the seats don't proportionally scale with population)
19:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause> story doesn't end there, because germany tried to push for an EU election reform, mandating a 3% barrier in each member state. which all the states passed, except for germany itself, where the smaller opposition parties went like: "are you crazy? we're not changing this so close to the election"
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19:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> (iirc this was bundled with some other stuff, like which countries would get which of the UK seats in case brexit actually happened)
20:02:28 <frosch123> can the uk write in their last will, who should get the seats?
20:03:07 <peter1138> Off out now, see you later.
20:08:52 <Samu> aha. the first game is complete! Convoy reaches £10M after bankrupting the first time
20:17:43 <Wolf01> Meh, disabled extensions again even with the extension fix
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20:39:01 <spnda> yeah I was wondering why they all had that [m] behind their name
20:39:08 <Samu> recessions have a much bigger impact on inflation enabled games
20:39:33 <Samu> profits go right into negative
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20:55:46 <frosch123> they were looking for [f]
20:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> to pay respects?
20:59:57 <DorpsGek> Wolf01: __ln__ was last seen in #openttd 43 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 54 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <__ln__> TrueBrain: also, how hard can it be to figure out my comment COULD be related to a repo that was mentioned on the previous line?
21:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt he'll come back any time soon
21:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> after how that conversation ended...
21:02:56 <Wolf01> Too much people ragequits
21:03:19 <LordAro> that wasn't a ragequit
21:03:23 <LordAro> that was TB banning him
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21:22:11 <Samu> inflation on loan makes these absurd results
21:24:33 <Samu> this is the last time I test inflation
21:28:06 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7572: GDI engine for font glyph rendering as a replacement for FreeType (take 2) https://git.io/fjngD
21:29:30 <andythenorth> nielsm: so where's the draft docs again?
21:30:27 <nielsm> the industry properties are not updated at all
21:31:32 <nielsm> but I'm not sure if the example is too long
21:32:09 <andythenorth> the nfo docs are all done iirc?
21:34:05 <andythenorth> example is a bit long, but I'm not minded to rewrite it
21:34:31 <andythenorth> just warehouse_prod_cb1 switch is quite overwhelming
21:36:00 <andythenorth> ok so props, we deprecated some?
21:36:04 <nielsm> yeah I was trying to think of something not entirely contrived or everything would be too simple to show off the important bits
21:36:05 <andythenorth> prod_cargo_types
21:36:08 <andythenorth> accept_cargo_types
21:36:18 <andythenorth> input_multiplier_1
21:36:19 <andythenorth> input_multiplier_2
21:36:21 <andythenorth> input_multiplier_3
21:36:39 <andythenorth> not just deprecated, removed
21:37:04 <andythenorth> so there's probably a wiki format for NML < 0.5
21:37:11 <andythenorth> in the props table
21:37:38 <nielsm> I couldn't figure out how to put a < in the template instantiation
21:37:47 <andythenorth> or are old props just deleted?
21:37:50 <nielsm> < just showed up literally
21:38:01 <nielsm> I think keep them for now
21:38:12 <nielsm> since there's still nml 0.4 projects around
21:38:31 <andythenorth> there's also a format for the OpenTTD version, I guess we need that
21:38:37 <andythenorth> quite faffy isn't it :D
21:39:37 <andythenorth> oh 0.5 is not released
21:39:59 <andythenorth> ok I'm confused as usual :P
21:40:55 <andythenorth> looks like 16 cargos is 0.4.5?
21:41:45 <nielsm> but a syntax break like this warrants a bigger version increase
21:41:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker is this thing on? :)
21:49:50 <andythenorth> yeah I assumed it would be 0.5
21:49:56 <andythenorth> assumptions = fail :P
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21:51:51 <andythenorth> can't find an established format for deprecating
21:52:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's just the old version
21:52:42 <andythenorth> so just [0.4.4] or so?
21:53:12 <frosch123> also, i second that the new industry syntax needs a 0.5
21:53:54 <andythenorth> I also found "As of NML 0.3, do not use this. Use cargo_[dis]allow_refit (see below) instead."
21:54:00 <andythenorth> which is just plain text
21:54:44 <frosch123> i think nml 0.3 predates the wiki
21:54:51 <frosch123> so, if noone found it, noone added the icon
21:54:59 <andythenorth> ok let's do cargo_types first, then mark up deprecated
21:55:10 * andythenorth prepares to battle with wiki
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21:59:51 <andythenorth> is that accurate?
22:00:44 <andythenorth> frosch123 so bump to 0.5?
22:00:50 <andythenorth> the genie is already out of the bottle, but eh
22:02:27 <frosch123> is there an explicit version in nml somewhere?
22:02:33 <frosch123> i thought it's just the tag somewhen
22:02:45 <andythenorth> I think it's just the tag afaict
22:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the "major" version bump isn't really about the new syntax, but about the removal of the old syntax
22:02:55 <andythenorth> might be setup.py I'll look
22:03:00 <frosch123> well, i would wait for the tag until pm confirms that there is a farm :p
22:03:10 <frosch123> no point in a tag that does not compile
22:03:39 <frosch123> it may need new .devzone stuff or whatever
22:03:51 <andythenorth> 0.4.5 is already shipped though?
22:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (which i still think is unnecessary, there wouldn't have needed to be put much effort in to keep the old syntax working)
22:04:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: 0.4.5 is a year old?
22:04:16 <andythenorth> did I misread dates?
22:04:30 <andythenorth> that makes a lot more sense
22:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: iirc the plan was to make a maintenance release and a new bumped release around the time of the openttd release, but i guess that ship sailed...
22:07:06 <andythenorth> not all done yet
22:08:28 <Samu> I'm getting weird results
22:08:41 <Samu> in 90 days a company makes £10M in value
22:08:54 <Samu> I think I'm gonna repeat this
22:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, cat still hasn't moved from the chair...
22:10:07 <Samu> re-do this round without inflation?
22:11:10 <andythenorth> ouch wiki formatting bites :(
22:11:12 <Samu> what the heck, i'll keep at it
22:11:16 <nielsm> change the rule so the goal 10M is also affected by inflation?
22:11:44 <Samu> that means i'd have to work on the GS
22:12:49 <Samu> it's gonna be something on my to-do list
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22:14:21 <andythenorth> nielsm: was there a more complex version of cargo_types with ratios per cargo?
22:14:26 <andythenorth> or did I talk you out of that?
22:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i can't put my finger on it, but the layout/phrasing seems... off
22:14:55 <Samu> i would have to re-do all rounds where I played with inflation on
22:15:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: refresh, to be sure you're not looking at a broken version
22:15:23 <andythenorth> but yeah, writing docs, not my strong point
22:15:23 <Samu> but indeed, these results are skewed
22:16:15 <Samu> ok, stopping all openttds... what has to be done, has to be done
22:16:35 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe make a separate table for entries removed in 0.5?
22:16:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: maybe
22:16:52 <andythenorth> seems nobody really knows, so maybe we just invent new?
22:17:49 <Eddi|zuHause> also, green doesn't seem to be a fitting colour for "removed in this version"
22:18:05 <nielsm> andythenorth yes, there is the classic callback-less method of a input-to-output multiplier matrix
22:19:01 <nielsm> accept_cargo("IORE", produce_cargo("STEL", 1), produce_cargo("SLAG", 0.25))
22:21:25 <Samu> Round 5 and Round 12 had inflation turned on
22:21:34 <andythenorth> I'd better add those
22:22:28 <Samu> but for now, I'm restarting round 18, without inflation
22:24:25 <andythenorth> not sure how to make it really clear
22:25:41 <nielsm> yeah it's a complex expression that's not well suited for a small table cell to explain :P
22:26:06 <nielsm> might be best to make a full section somewhere on the page to explain the expression syntax
22:26:40 <nielsm> and well the rule isn't so much how many parts are to the array, but how many different cargo labels appear in it
22:27:11 * andythenorth awaiting inspiration :)
22:27:24 <andythenorth> I found it really easy to understand, in the final format, after all the initial debate
22:27:27 <andythenorth> but hard to explain :P
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22:37:30 <LordAro> frosch123: not a spam attack
22:37:50 <LordAro> just matrix people rejoining
22:38:15 <LordAro> actually, i don't trust any of those nicks at all
22:38:37 <LordAro> and all from the same /96
22:39:09 <LordAro> i didn't notice them joining originally..
22:39:45 <frosch123> i saw the movie, but no idea waht you mean with matrix
22:39:51 <frosch123> but yes, they are all on the same node
22:39:52 <FLHerne> LordAro: All from the same bridge isn't surprising, if it's really Matrix
22:40:05 <frosch123> dockers or something
22:40:23 <frosch123> is that the new mattermore?
22:40:41 <FLHerne> frosch123: It's pretty much an attempt to recreate IRC, but modern
22:42:00 <FLHerne> Massively multi-user chat, but with support for inline pictures, VOIP, webcams etc.
22:42:27 <FLHerne> [alternatively, like a FOSS Skype protocol]
22:42:46 <FLHerne> Anyway, you can bridge IRC <-> Matrix channels
22:45:43 <FLHerne> ] users are actually clients connected to some Matrix channel that's bridged to this one
22:49:11 <nielsm> andythenorth: I wrote a full section on the cargo_types array
22:50:48 <andythenorth> shall we add a final note
22:50:59 <andythenorth> "for more complex production, see the produce cb"
22:51:09 <nielsm> fixed some bad wikicode :P
22:55:59 <nielsm> and also crosslinked "produce-block" in the callbacks list to the page describing produce blocks now :P
23:01:28 <SpComb^> matrix should get some cloaking or reverse-dns action going for those IPv6 bridges, might look more legit
23:03:30 <nielsm> andythenorth: there's also several of the variables that changed, but I'd rather wait to do those until tomorrow
23:05:53 <andythenorth> I think it's bedtime
23:09:53 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:33:57 <dwfreed> LordAro: it is indeed matrix
23:34:54 <LordAro> dwfreed: nicks look very spammy though
23:35:11 <dwfreed> they idle in here like everybody else
23:35:21 <dwfreed> the bridge went down at 18:34 UTC; this is just the bridge coming back up
23:35:46 <LordAro> they do look like random strings of letters & numbers though
23:35:50 <dwfreed> rather than 2,000 reconnections at once, it does one ever 3 seconds
23:35:58 <dwfreed> people have weird matrix usernames
23:36:38 <dwfreed> the bridge sets the username and homeserver as the realname
23:36:40 <dwfreed> 2019-05-08 21:36:12 [TrekWebOFTC] -!- jact[m] [~jactopeni@2001:470:1af1:101::36cc]
23:36:40 <dwfreed> 2019-05-08 21:36:12 [TrekWebOFTC] -!- ircname : @jact:openintents.modular.im
23:37:07 <LordAro> i'm more concerned by one like ad5twoknebor
23:37:26 <dwfreed> 2019-05-08 21:37:15 [TrekWebOFTC] -!- ad5twoknebor[m] [~ad5twokne@2001:470:1af1:101::33c7]
23:37:26 <dwfreed> 2019-05-08 21:37:15 [TrekWebOFTC] -!- ircname : @ad5twoknebor:kde.org
23:37:29 <LordAro> the shorter ones are indeed not suspicious
23:37:52 <LordAro> but regardless, i defer to your judgement :)
23:46:13 <Samu> remind me to re-do rounds 5 and 12 without inflation
continue to next day ⏵
