IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-12-02
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00:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it was mentioned a few times in this channel
00:05:38 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep opened pull request #6985: Fix (#6974): Add filter widget to api (and a double dot from somewhere) https://git.io/fpoNj
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03:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> very descriptive title
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09:15:18 <andythenorth> where is V453000 ?
09:30:01 <SpComb> busy finishing up factorio 0.17, I hope. I want to start a new game already
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13:42:07 <frosch123> i wonder why there is drama yet
13:42:54 <frosch123> i am waiting for 2 days, but forums did not notice anything
13:50:39 <frosch123> i tried to sort them into different tables, but my razor is not sharp enough to distinguish not-quite-bs from likely-bs
13:53:43 <frosch123> and that after years of training from V and andy :p
13:55:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd first remove all the ones that have no mentioning of a newgrf that uses them
13:56:38 <frosch123> we won't run out of labels, that is not the issue
13:57:00 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's not it. but it clutters the table for no reason
13:57:11 <frosch123> i just wonder whether any vehicle author would ever check that list to pick what they want to support, or whether they stopped that anyway since firs
13:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and it is clearly listed at the bottom that usage should be defined
13:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i definitely can imagine some overly excessive compulsive authors to do that
13:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> s/excessive/obsessive/
13:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno what happened there
14:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm tempted to just hit the "undo" button for the last edits...
14:04:23 <frosch123> well, that won't help
14:05:19 <Eddi|zuHause> we should have a separate section for bullshit-fantasy-cargos
14:05:23 <frosch123> T800 is no less stupid than YETI, GEMS is no less stupid than SGBT
14:05:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (which would include some of the YETI stuff)
14:06:00 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i tried that, but my razor was not sharp enough to decide for BOOKS, EELS, COMPUTERS
14:06:48 <frosch123> is distinguishing GEMS/JADE/DIAM less stupid than SGBT/SGCN ?
14:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably include the toyland stuff
14:09:06 <frosch123> original cargos are already separate
14:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but that would disturb the distinction between original and new cargos
14:09:20 <frosch123> no sortable wiki tables :)
14:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so, "realistic new cargos", "unreasonably detailed new cargos" and "fantasy/scifi/fun new cargos"
14:15:48 <frosch123> is deuterium the seconds or the third?
14:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> first, surely? :p
14:17:08 <frosch123> i did not make it up, it's really on the wiki
14:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> in case the irony marker was not obvious enough: i meant third :)
14:19:27 <Eddi|zuHause> probably a few of the FIRS ones
14:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> something like "PORE Pyrite Ore" or "QLME Quicklime"
14:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> what i would intend this list to be is some sort of "if you're making a train set, you can skip these without upsetting too many people"
14:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> early heuristic: all the FIRS cargos that are not in one of the "basic" economies
14:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (and not in any other set)
14:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "SILK Silk 1220 Piece goods, covered, non pourable" <-- it doesn't really make any sense to use non-pourable if it's not bulk?
14:37:34 <frosch123> make a nml PR to check for that
14:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> before i can do nml PRs i would first have to convert eddi-nml to git
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14:41:03 <Wolf01> WTF, I don't even know what are at least 20% of those cargos
14:42:27 <frosch123> deuterium is hydrogen with a bonus neutron
14:42:49 <Wolf01> Yes, ok, but "cassava"?
14:42:51 <Eddi|zuHause> deuterium is most commonly found in "heavy water"
14:42:56 <frosch123> it's used in some types of nuclear reactors
14:43:15 <Eddi|zuHause> cassava is a root thingie eaten in some developing countries you've never thought more than 2 minutes of
14:43:23 <Wolf01> Also do we really need a specific cargo for wasabi and tofu?
14:43:34 <frosch123> Wolf01: when rice is asia, wheat is europe, then cassava is south america
14:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why that goes in the third category
14:44:17 <andythenorth> that's obitwo on my keyboard actually
14:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause> on most keyboards, i imagine
14:44:38 <andythenorth> I should learn to type
14:45:01 <Wolf01> I would start by split that huge table into more tables and put the sortable in it, so one could check if the cargo he wants it's already there by label or by description
14:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> most of my typos are from offset hands or keypresses not registering, but lately i have developed this habit of making phonetic typos
14:46:04 <andythenorth> oh there are some awesome new cargos?
14:46:13 <frosch123> i do phonetic typos in english all the time
14:47:05 * andythenorth wonders what the Kill Bill cargo does
14:47:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "s/excessive/obsessive/" <-- i would include that in the phonetic category
14:47:22 <andythenorth> eh frosch123 there's a cargo just for you :)
14:47:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "it sounds somewhat similar, so it got confused"
14:48:22 <Eddi|zuHause> how does one make sortable tables on the wiki?
14:48:30 <frosch123> it needs some add-on
14:48:38 <frosch123> i should also add it to the new ottd wiki
14:48:39 <andythenorth> apart from the "Hidrogen" typo they all look reasonable
14:48:39 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> oh there are some awesome new cargos? <- didn't somebody say 64 were not enough and go for 32k directly?
14:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so nothing i can do from my end?
14:48:57 <andythenorth> 'Dinosaur" is going to be interesting
14:50:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still tending to remove the original/new distinction, and put all the toyland-only cargos in the fantasy category
14:50:51 <frosch123> original/new was important at some point
14:51:06 <frosch123> i forgot why, and whether that reason vanished with grfv8
14:51:21 <andythenorth> afaict, they're all just cargos :P
14:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause> we can make "original" a column like "ecs" "firs" "yeti"
14:51:47 <andythenorth> column for known uses
14:52:35 <Eddi|zuHause> wiki code is not optimal for shuffling table entries around
14:52:45 <frosch123> profite is some carbon-bases material?
14:52:58 <andythenorth> might give me ideas
14:53:06 <andythenorth> did we patch nml for 16-in-out cargos yet?
14:53:13 <andythenorth> I'm sure nielsm has done 99% of it
14:53:28 <andythenorth> I think we only have to choose the colour for the bikeshed now
14:53:34 <andythenorth> the rest all looked done to me
14:53:42 <andythenorth> there was a branch and stuff
14:53:50 <andythenorth> then I can make the chemistry economy
14:53:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that definitely sounds like some material used in nanotech :)
14:54:03 <nielsm> I'm not seeing CAKE on the cargo types list
14:54:08 <andythenorth> the chemistry economy...will greatly improve the wiki :)
14:54:17 <Eddi|zuHause> fullerenes and profiteroles :)
14:54:19 <andythenorth> nielsm: I added it to FIRS Town economy, but then I deleted the whole idea
14:54:27 <andythenorth> towns are hard to provide industries in reliably
14:54:44 <andythenorth> flour + sugar + dairy products -> bakery -> cake shop
14:54:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: do you have a list of firs cargos per economy?
14:54:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: as you asked...
14:55:03 <andythenorth> releases, or nightlies? :P
14:55:07 <andythenorth> probably releases is safer
14:55:33 <andythenorth> do you want json dump :P
14:55:36 <andythenorth> then you could script it
14:55:45 <andythenorth> and never touch wiki formatting ever again
14:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> aye, that seems more helpful
14:56:51 * andythenorth ponders converting FIRS to yaml
14:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't need the properties, but the idea above was to separate the "basic" cargos from the others
14:59:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: is sake a wine, bear, cider or spirit?
14:59:58 <nielsm> production method wise it's closest to beer
15:00:56 <Eddi|zuHause> main distinction between alcohols is whether it's fermented or distilled
15:02:22 <Eddi|zuHause> after that, distinctions may include the source materials, or the storage materials, or the time needed, or whatever...
15:02:37 <andythenorth> but not in large quantities
15:04:12 <frosch123> does that make it a wine?
15:04:23 <andythenorth> I forgot that some FIRS economies are designed to make the graphviz charts look good
15:04:33 <nielsm> it's a culinary wine, technical beer
15:04:36 <andythenorth> it's important to have valid gameplay goals :P
15:04:56 <Eddi|zuHause> "Sake is a beverage fermented from rice, which is a grain. This would make it more of a beer than a wine. Yet, sake is not carbonated, and flavor-wise is closer to wine than beer, although it is indeed uniquely different from wine."
15:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> google on "is sake wine or beer"
15:05:15 <andythenorth> in the uk it's usually explained as 'rice win'
15:05:29 <andythenorth> oh that's where the extra 'e' came from earlier
15:05:40 <andythenorth> they move around temporally sometimes
15:05:49 <andythenorth> eventually my typing nets out to 'accurate'
15:05:57 <andythenorth> turtles all the way down Eddi|zuHause
15:06:31 <andythenorth> I went sake tasting this year, I'm not sure I believe the hype, but we were told it's closest to a vodka or gin
15:07:06 <andythenorth> but it's femented not distilled, so eh
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15:11:19 <andythenorth> hmm bundles doesn't build branches
15:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm assuming it needs a special setting to do that
15:19:03 <andythenorth> 'hg up [branch name]' in the build :P
15:33:08 <andythenorth> 1CC upper, 2CC frame
15:35:44 <frosch123> if you have something resembling vehicle generations, you can alternate the colour schema
15:36:17 <frosch123> or you can make them mostlyl the same, and only swap in random places where vehicles look similar
15:38:53 <andythenorth> the 'role' column keys the generations
15:39:11 <andythenorth> the diesel and electric trains do ok for variety vs. consistency
15:39:57 <andythenorth> pikka and dan do a lot of black freight engines, which is ok, but I prefer lots of CC
15:42:12 <frosch123> black does not have enough shades
15:42:17 <frosch123> and dark grey is too weird
15:42:30 <frosch123> i am no fan of the black pikka engines
15:45:52 <andythenorth> what about the black boiler on the Haar?
15:47:44 * andythenorth wasn't sure, but it seems to work
15:48:03 <frosch123> lemon is also fine, as long as not every engine is like that
15:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe have the distinction between light/heavy engines?
15:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> like, the Haar looks a bit odd in that list
15:57:03 <andythenorth> would it look odd if the two above it had black boilers?
15:57:23 <andythenorth> I keep trying 1CC/2CC stripes, but they look awful :)
15:57:34 <frosch123> i think it's a good thing if some engines look different :p
15:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's a good thing if on first glance you can see whether it's a branch, light or heavy engine
15:58:48 <andythenorth> I considered that
15:58:58 <andythenorth> but then it's hard to distinguish between generations
15:59:13 <andythenorth> and there aren't actually enough pixels to change the shape much
15:59:20 <andythenorth> so sometimes livery is the only way
16:06:55 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: how did your wiki edits progress?
16:07:05 * andythenorth not actually convinced by the 2CC engine
16:07:16 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i won't finish today, i think
16:11:35 <andythenorth> pixels are cheap
16:20:39 <frosch123> i would expect that most grey do not work with most company colors
16:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that thing looks horrible
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16:44:38 <andythenorth> alt-click in depot to invert 1CC / 2CC automatically? o_O
16:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> alt+click is special on linuxes
16:46:14 <andythenorth> error: not enough modifiers
16:46:24 <frosch123> how about LMB+RMB+wheel?
16:47:18 <Wolf01> MB4, MB5 could be fine, if mouse has more buttons :P
16:47:41 <andythenorth> how about scrolling over the vehicle flicks through liveries?
16:47:48 <andythenorth> have to be super accurate
16:48:05 <andythenorth> like one of those google maps frames in web pages that captures scroll :P
16:50:03 <frosch123> do eye-trackers report about blinking?
16:50:09 <frosch123> livery could change when you blink
16:50:21 <andythenorth> blink and you'll miss it
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17:43:57 <frosch123> it's the blue thing in the middle, that's new?
17:44:24 <andythenorth> the 2CC stripe on the tender
17:45:20 <andythenorth> meh, blue-grey boiler might work, but those colours aren't used anywhere else in Horse
17:45:59 <andythenorth> oh they're on the roof of this metro, that's a bug :P file:///Users/andy2/Documents/OTTD_graphics/Iron_Horse/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html#serpentine
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18:11:03 <andythenorth> could I inject new realsprites directly into a running newgrf?
18:11:11 <andythenorth> new / replacement /s
18:11:20 <andythenorth> presumably it's just a string of bytes?
18:46:09 <nielsm> you mean update graphics in a running game without a full reload?
18:47:52 <frosch123> or: load sprite from png and show it in viewport
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19:29:30 <andythenorth> it would speed up newgrf dev remarkably :P
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20:24:39 <snail_UES_> hi guys… I just released my set, but I’m not following GPL (my set is all rights reserved)
20:24:44 <snail_UES_> I can’t put it on bananas, right?
20:25:32 <frosch123> bananas has only one requirement: you cannot unrelease stuff
20:26:30 <frosch123> stuff is there to stay for people wanting to load old savegames
20:27:02 <snail_UES_> ah I see… for some reason I thought it’d be for stuff in GPL license only
20:27:45 <snail_UES_> great, I’ll have a look at it
20:40:27 <andythenorth> it's done then snail_UES_ ? :)
20:42:10 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: yes… at least until you release a zillion more cargoes in the next FIRS :D
20:47:14 <snail_UES_> I already got some bug reports :D I guess the real fun starts now...
20:51:44 <andythenorth> it's kind of weird doing 1.0 of a newgrf
20:51:57 <andythenorth> after a long time working on it
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21:08:35 <snail_UES_> haha yes, I’ve been working on this thing for 10+ years
21:22:54 <andythenorth> there are only 3 engines in 1870 :P
21:24:21 <andythenorth> definitely looks more 'freight'
21:24:28 <andythenorth> but it's not subtle :P
21:26:43 <frosch123> they are snow covered :p
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21:34:23 <snail_UES_> maybe the 4-2-2’s driving wheel could be even… “bigger”? did you draw it from a technical schema?
21:35:48 <andythenorth> it could go 1px taller
21:35:58 <andythenorth> it will be quite cartoon
21:37:34 <andythenorth> black works, but is meh
21:48:05 <andythenorth> don't like the black :P
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22:47:50 <Wolf01> They look like are made of sugar
22:53:06 <andythenorth> is that good or bad? :P
22:55:28 <andythenorth> I am not convinced by the 2CC Spinner
22:55:32 <andythenorth> playing a test game
22:55:56 <andythenorth> when there are only 3 trains, they don't need to look very different imho
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