IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-11-10
⏴ go to previous day
04:21:40 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
06:16:26 *** triolus has joined #openttd
08:20:32 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:33:41 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
08:33:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
08:36:25 <Alberth> yep, too much coding during the work day
08:37:25 <andythenorth> I have a remedy for that
08:37:37 <andythenorth> spend your time on ISO compliance and GDPR
08:37:52 <andythenorth> very recommended
08:38:32 <Alberth> ah, sounds good, not sure if the scientific process needs to be that repeatable :p
08:39:01 <Alberth> being able to understand the result seems sufficient :p
08:42:28 <Alberth> work is also giving me lots of new stuff, which is good but takes a lot of effort
08:44:03 <Alberth> on the hobby side, not sure what to do, I have seen most of openttd, on the other hand, I have no new thing yet either, still looking where to go
08:54:43 <Alberth> I am playing city build games :p
08:55:27 <Alberth> but it's very slow, at some point I will have enough of it
08:55:59 *** triolus has joined #openttd
09:22:36 <TrueBrain> Alberth: ever considered building websites? Or something like a Master Server? :P
09:26:04 *** triolus has joined #openttd
09:26:05 <Alberth> no idea what a master server is doing :)
09:26:21 <TrueBrain> keeping track of the servers, telling the clients where to find them, and bringing them in contact :)
09:26:59 <Alberth> written in ancient technology, I guess?
09:27:08 <TrueBrain> was my latest draft for a redesign
09:27:26 <TrueBrain> lately I have also been wondering if it could help to do NAT punching
09:30:46 <Alberth> it mostly lists what is not there, it seems :p
09:33:21 <Alberth> needs much more detailing on the specs, I think
09:33:34 <TrueBrain> having specs before code is always good :)
09:34:10 <TrueBrain> if you are interested, I can help with the specs
09:34:51 <Alberth> I wouldn't know what to build at this point :p
09:35:23 *** triolus has joined #openttd
09:35:27 <Alberth> I'll make a PR, ok? let's see what happens
09:35:47 <TrueBrain> go for it :) Anything I can help with, let me know
09:36:39 <Alberth> any description of the current thing somewhere?
09:36:54 <TrueBrain> svn-archive has the code
09:36:57 <TrueBrain> not sure if that has a readme :D
09:37:41 <Alberth> it's perhaps fairly simple, game request a bunch of server info, and that's it?
09:37:55 <Alberth> oh, and server sends a bunch of info, probably :p
09:38:00 <TrueBrain> yeah, so there are 2 things involved
09:38:06 <TrueBrain> when a server comes online, it tells the MS he is
09:38:16 <TrueBrain> the MS has an updater running, every 5 minutes it checks all servers if they are still there
09:38:28 <TrueBrain> that last part retrieves information from the server, like time, map, players, ..
09:38:32 <TrueBrain> and updates that in his database
09:38:39 <TrueBrain> clients can poke the MS to get a full list of servers online
09:39:12 <Alberth> so that should become https too I guess?
09:39:38 <TrueBrain> I am not really sure why I wrote that down inthat document tbh
09:39:43 <TrueBrain> https can be a pita, as you need to add a ssl library
09:39:50 <TrueBrain> that would be very good, but might be a lot of work too :P
09:40:04 <Alberth> no idea, never done anything https
09:40:07 <TrueBrain> I think I was more trying to make the point (to myself mostly I guess), that UDP is a shitty solution :P
09:40:25 <TrueBrain> a long history of issues because we use UDP to query servers
09:40:28 <TrueBrain> while the game runs on TCP :P
09:40:37 <TrueBrain> so I am not sure what the best solution is
09:40:44 <TrueBrain> ah, on the old svn is a 'design.txt'
09:40:51 <Alberth> I'll write some thoughts in a PR, some feedback would be useful then
09:41:40 *** triolus has joined #openttd
09:41:43 <TrueBrain> additionally, I am trying to move everything to a kubernetes like layout
09:41:54 <Alberth> I only have /home/alberth/corsix-th/design.txt :D
09:42:26 <TrueBrain> anyway, a new MS would be most useful if it is one or more Docker containers; but that is optional :)
09:42:45 <Alberth> you're speaking magic words now
09:42:53 <TrueBrain> so optional it is ;)
09:43:02 <Alberth> however I am sure you know what it means :)
09:43:18 <TrueBrain> it is fine :) No need to jump from 0 to 100 km/h at once :P
09:43:33 <TrueBrain> I want the moon, but I am also already very happy with some bread :)
09:46:53 <Alberth> need to shop for that :) I'll do that first I think, get food for the weekend covered
09:49:42 <TrueBrain> multi-stage Dockerfiles are cool :)
09:53:01 <TrueBrain> but Docker always remains annoying .. his COPY never does what I want it to do
09:53:13 <TrueBrain> "owh, you want to copy a directory? Sure, let me copy the content of it for you ..."
10:01:49 * andythenorth kinda reading jekyll docs
10:01:53 <andythenorth> could use a nap though
10:02:02 <TrueBrain> it is .... early morning! :P
10:05:08 <TrueBrain> permission denied error when I try to build with Jekyll .. hmmmm
10:12:50 <nielsm> isn't the problem simply that too few alternatives are available?
10:13:07 <andythenorth> I did read the code once, but that was a long time ago :)
10:15:44 <nielsm> but I agree that the town growth algorithm probably can use a revamp to try not making towns worse
10:16:41 <nielsm> somehow assign an economic value to buildings and avoid replacing buildings with good value
10:20:34 <Alberth> theaters are perhaps buildings with good economic value :)
10:21:08 <nielsm> sadly those things would need to be dynamic
10:21:20 <nielsm> i.e. towns should strive for a good composition of buildings
10:21:33 <Alberth> probably aim for diveristy in some way
10:22:18 <Alberth> but if it uses random, that should already be happening
10:23:02 <andythenorth> it can be done in newgrf
10:23:13 <andythenorth> seems weird to fix game bugs in newgrf
10:23:16 *** triolus has joined #openttd
10:23:34 <Alberth> since that would be a likely implementation, it is likely useful to first find why it happens
10:23:53 <Alberth> andy: Like haveing support for non-default cargoes, you mean?
10:24:17 <andythenorth> the bug is that the theatres cause town population to plummet
10:24:41 <andythenorth> so counter-intuitively, before 1930, providing service to a town grows it physically, but destroys the population
10:25:46 <nielsm> buildings available 1930 or earlier
10:25:52 <nielsm> really not a lot of choice
10:25:53 <Alberth> somebody didn't think theatres would be popular :p
10:27:40 <nielsm> could maybe introduce a new house flag for "do not build close to another of the same type"
10:27:59 <nielsm> useful for cultural buildings that don't grow population
10:28:07 <nielsm> theatres, parks, statues
10:28:19 <andythenorth> so there are only 5 options in zone 4
10:28:33 <andythenorth> so the shrinking population problem only occurs for specific town sizes
10:28:58 <andythenorth> 35 popn theatres replace 100 popn shops and offices
10:29:16 <Alberth> it's weird that you get entire streets of theatres imho
10:29:28 <andythenorth> the min build year is interesting
10:29:34 <andythenorth> so what happens *before* 1930
10:29:37 <andythenorth> towns still get built
10:29:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: it could just be confirmation basis on a genuinely random pattern
10:29:57 <andythenorth> but it's bad gameplay
10:30:15 <LordAro> is it just a case of buildings in the base set having an introduction dates set to 1930 because TTD could never be played that far back?
10:30:29 <andythenorth> LordAro: that's what I wonder
10:30:30 <Alberth> with 5 kinds of houses, you'd expect some house here and there in-between?
10:31:03 <Alberth> maybe it makes selections based on available space or so?
10:31:28 <nielsm> yeah that table from the newgrf wiki is not quite right
10:31:36 <nielsm> lots of buildings have min_year=0
10:31:55 <andythenorth> I have found MakeTownHouse
10:32:00 <andythenorth> but can't find a list of default houses
10:32:33 <andythenorth> I would never have guessed there :)
10:32:57 <Alberth> everything table is in 'table' :)
10:34:35 <nielsm> the size 95 "shops and offices" are really from 1930
10:35:27 <andythenorth> so I think the effect is random, and I've screenshotted pathological cases
10:35:31 <nielsm> only the size 100 "shops and offices" and the theatre are available before 1930
10:35:58 <andythenorth> ^ that one seems to have even mix of theatres and two colours of size 100 shops and offices
10:36:21 <nielsm> that's the only two available in zone 4 before 1930
10:36:33 <LordAro> maybe those buildings with min_year ~1931 could be set to 0
10:36:44 <andythenorth> and when the town grows, it might replace 100 popn building with 35?
10:37:16 <andythenorth> could just weight it by adding more entries for shops and offices, same sprites
10:37:26 <nielsm> can't add mose house ids
10:39:15 <andythenorth> guard that can't replace high popn building with lower popn?
10:39:28 <andythenorth> might have unexpected consequences :P
10:39:48 <nielsm> occasionally new parks etc should pop up in a city centre
10:41:29 <nielsm> but a check for "no other cultural buildings nearby" (new flag) (nearby meaning tile radius 2 or 3) could work I think
10:44:10 <LordAro> still lots of magic numbers in town_land.h, interestingly
10:54:15 <Alberth> it's ancient, it's stable, don't touch it :)
11:04:38 <andythenorth> just imagine all the magic numbers in universe.h
11:04:47 <andythenorth> given that we're all living in a simulation :P
11:05:20 <LordAro> turns out they are actually already defined
11:05:28 <LordAro> but they're defined in decimal, not hex
11:05:35 <LordAro> so it's a little difficult to work out which is which :p
11:06:31 * andythenorth wonders how many physical phenomena can be attributed to refactoring attempts :P
11:06:42 <andythenorth> in the underlying code for reality
11:09:31 <Alberth> could be the black matter :)
11:09:45 <Alberth> new bananas even has code :o
11:09:52 <andythenorth> everything is awesome
11:15:46 <andythenorth> so I should try this town gen patch eh?
11:15:52 <andythenorth> and mac ICU fixes
11:15:59 <andythenorth> so what do I do?
11:16:08 <andythenorth> add them as remotes to my clone of LordAro's branch?
11:16:24 <andythenorth> I can't compile trunk
11:17:30 <LordAro> probably check out those patches/PR, then apply my branch on top of it
11:17:45 <nielsm> wasn't it a workaround to pass CXXFLAGS=-std=c++11 to configure too?
11:18:00 <LordAro> i was going to update the PR to just pass that regardless
11:19:24 *** matt21347 has joined #openttd
11:34:54 <LordAro> so it turns out not all sprites are actually defined
11:42:30 <Wolf01> In CS how do you usually limit the area of operation for emergency vehicles? I noticed all my ev take the highway to go on the other side of the map where there is already an unused station, and when all the vehicles are around, unused stations spawn new vehicles to go on the other side of the map too...
11:44:05 <LordAro> in fact, basically only the temperate sprites are defined
11:44:28 <nielsm> Wolf01: well you don't... I think there is a mod that lets you restrict them to the district (?) they are placed in
11:45:15 <Wolf01> I'll try with traffic manager, but that's a lot of work
11:58:15 <Wolf01> They still seem to move around, but in reduced number... I lost half of the population because hearses were stuck in the highway and had like 400 dead people around
12:05:25 <Alberth> make emergency vehicle lanes?
12:05:44 <Alberth> no idea if that's possible though :)
12:06:09 <Wolf01> Ok, it is, with traffic manager
12:07:17 <Alberth> block them from using the highway
12:07:28 <Wolf01> That's what I did... no success
12:07:57 <Wolf01> Emergency vehicles are above the law...
12:08:34 <Alberth> flying above the highway would be more useful :)
12:08:39 <Wolf01> Banned trucks on a highway exit and they don't use it, banned recycling trucks and tey don't give a fuck
12:09:23 <Alberth> send police in, and the money rolls in :p
12:10:07 *** Progman has joined #openttd
12:54:49 <andythenorth> my fancy new backup drive is not very fancy
12:55:44 <andythenorth> it only writes at about 20MB/s
12:56:27 <andythenorth> internal drive is 2500MB/s
12:56:36 <Alberth> not-so-fast usb cable?
12:56:47 <andythenorth> it's supposed to be USB 3.1
12:56:53 <andythenorth> read is ok 500MB/s
12:57:30 <Alberth> as long as you dont produce more than 20MB/s new information, it will work :p
12:57:34 <andythenorth> it's quite an old SSD in a new case, maybe it's the SSD
12:57:48 <andythenorth> the quest for faster backups continues
12:58:17 <Alberth> no idea how SSD write time relates to read times or age
12:58:42 <Alberth> 500MB/s read sounds like your usb cable is working as intended though
13:02:11 <Alberth> (assuming you're not sneakily reading from computer RAM cache)
13:14:40 <nielsm> SSD writes usually go to a buffer, and then the chipset shuffles things around to actually put the data in flash memory, since flash can only be erased in large pages at a time that can mean it needs to read a bunch of existing data and rewrite it with the new data added
13:14:52 <nielsm> and so when that buffer fills up, write speed drops
13:15:12 <nielsm> (seen from the host perspective)
13:17:14 <andythenorth> so it's probably 5 years old SSD
13:17:19 <andythenorth> might be small buffer
13:18:02 <nielsm> and flash cells also degrade with use, and data will slowly fade from flash cells too
13:18:22 <nielsm> flash does need refresh once in a while, like dram, just not very often
13:19:01 <nielsm> (and it depends on density and whether you're doing single-level or multi-level cells)
13:20:07 <LordAro> i don't think andythenorth is doing the sort of hardcore read/writes to wear out an SSD in only 5 years
13:20:19 <andythenorth> it's just a backup drive
13:20:40 <andythenorth> I suspect that (1) it's old (2) USB 3.1 is a lot slower than PCI-E
13:21:02 <andythenorth> it claims 10Gb/s
13:21:25 <nielsm> but really, don't use flash storage for backup, especially if you plan on leaving it offline for long periods
13:21:31 <LordAro> bet some part of the chain is not USB3.1 speeds
13:21:45 <LordAro> how is it connected at the other end? USB3.1 wasn't a thing 5 years ago
13:22:08 <andythenorth> it's a USB 3.1 enclosure with SATA (don't know what SATA spec the drive has)
13:22:09 <michi_cc> andythenorth: There's a neat marketing trick to write USB 3.1 Gen 1 on stuff to mean USB 3.0 speed.
13:22:32 <andythenorth> this one claimed 10Gb/s :)
13:22:35 <andythenorth> in the marketing
13:22:54 <michi_cc> There's no SATA faster than 600Mb/s in theory an about 550MB/s in practice.
13:23:46 <andythenorth> other people are reporting 300MB/s with this enclosure
13:24:27 <andythenorth> well the mystery can continue another day
14:27:51 *** Maarten has joined #openttd
14:31:13 *** triolus has joined #openttd
14:31:13 *** quiznilo has joined #openttd
14:31:13 *** Tharbakim has joined #openttd
14:31:13 *** greeter has joined #openttd
14:31:50 *** dwfreed has joined #openttd
15:49:16 <Alberth> let's take some random text fragments and merge them :p
17:03:55 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
17:05:21 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
17:26:23 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
17:26:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
17:38:38 *** dwfreed is now known as Guest2700
17:38:38 *** Guest2700 is now known as Guest2701
17:38:40 *** dwfreed has joined #openttd
17:40:00 *** snail_UES_ is now known as Guest2702
17:40:01 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
18:21:51 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2714
18:52:48 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
18:54:36 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2719
19:09:33 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2721
19:33:56 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
20:46:54 *** wodencafe has joined #openttd
21:24:50 *** wodencafe has joined #openttd
21:27:44 *** wodencafe has joined #openttd
22:05:05 *** wodencafe has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
