IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-11-09
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06:55:55 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation https://git.io/fpIIo
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19:30:33 <nielsm> I guess I should try playing a real game with that house cargo patch
19:53:42 <andythenorth> I played a game once
19:54:00 <andythenorth> nielsm: you should play test my newgrfs :P
19:54:04 <andythenorth> LordAro: funny you should mention that
19:56:22 <nielsm> I hope if the patch goes in, the default is changed away from original btw ;)
19:56:36 <Wolf01> I'm playing for real with my new lego microbots
19:57:45 <andythenorth> you should probably play with default vehicles though
19:57:49 <andythenorth> for balance reasons
19:58:00 <andythenorth> I would test these patches too
19:58:05 <andythenorth> if I had a clean compile :P
20:06:25 <andythenorth> Wolf01: FIRS in lego?
20:07:02 <andythenorth> it's a series, looks like a coal mine too?
20:07:07 <andythenorth> looks like Faller HO buildings
20:14:56 <frosch123> hmm.. dwarf factorio
20:17:31 <andythenorth> yeah he's doing Faller kits
20:19:21 <andythenorth> I considered same for game sprites
20:19:28 <andythenorth> did I do a concrete works?
20:22:42 <frosch123> does hog have a conrete mixing truck?
20:24:16 <andythenorth> what does it deliver though? o_O
20:24:35 <andythenorth> I considered some kind of building site industry, but it's weird
20:24:45 <andythenorth> houses accept concrete? o_O
20:25:52 <nielsm> it didn't do that before
20:26:06 <nielsm> I've also seen helipad sprites overlap the helipad recently
20:26:14 <nielsm> helipad overlapping helicopter *
20:27:00 <frosch123> (does it need dev tools active?)
20:27:21 <nielsm> I do have the dev tools enabled
20:28:21 <nielsm> doesn't reproduce reliably, seems to also depend on position of vehicles on screen
20:28:23 <frosch123> hmm, you mean "recently"? try without 25ab9c19?
20:28:59 <nielsm> the sprite sorting performance patch, I presume?
20:29:30 <frosch123> i did not check the last version, so no idea what it actually did
20:30:01 <frosch123> but spritesorting is not well-defined, so always magical :)
20:31:47 <nielsm> yeah not immediately seeing anything with that reverted
20:37:41 <nielsm> (cargo amounts, profits)
20:42:42 <andythenorth> so this rescales pax generation per house?
20:42:52 * andythenorth didn't read all the memos
20:43:47 <nielsm> I'm playing with the bitcount2 algorithm here
20:44:08 <nielsm> the numbers are pax generated across 5000 tile ticks
20:45:00 <andythenorth> I'm not going to ask how you raised the floor while compressing the ceiling :)
20:45:11 <andythenorth> but it might make a big worthwhile difference to the game
20:45:17 <andythenorth> as long as it doesn't get too compressed
20:45:40 <nielsm> it's actually that the original is scaled by roughly n^2
20:48:39 <nielsm> those 5000 tile ticks is a little more than 47 years
20:50:23 <nielsm> which means a size 5 house might generate 2 passengers in a good year with the original algorithm
20:52:18 <nielsm> while a size 200 house would spew 1000 passengers out every year
21:05:18 <Wolf01> Mmmh, my city is completely locked up on a huge traffic jam... I need to put more roads and fewer houses
21:15:20 <nielsm> (cargodist probably makes the numbers bigger than they strictly need to be)
21:15:26 <andythenorth> it's still a transport game :)
21:15:38 <nielsm> true, it needs stuff to transport :P
21:15:56 <nielsm> though the abundancy of cargo might make the game part too easy
21:16:04 <andythenorth> you need metro trains :P
21:19:48 <nielsm> I'd really like to lower the chance of generation just a bit, but making a 1:3 chance with bits is annoying (I don't want to work it out atm)
21:21:44 <frosch123> scale the population? fake_population = setting * real_population / 16 with setting 8..23 or something
21:22:48 <frosch123> somewhen i wondered whether there is too little mail to transport
21:27:53 <nielsm> a 1:3 chance could maybe be counting bits set of two chosen equals to bits set in six chosen
21:28:13 <frosch123> 5/16 is pretty much 1:3
21:30:04 <nielsm> I'll try switching to the flat distribution low range alg instead
21:30:15 <nielsm> see if the amounts feel better here
21:30:48 <frosch123> how much is the flat/gaussian distribution noticeable?
21:31:24 <frosch123> the more houses there are the more both are averaged
21:31:45 <frosch123> i think making them very variadic for low house amounts makes the game more interesting
21:32:45 <nielsm> I don't really notice it, I guess
21:35:10 <nielsm> the bus in the small town makes significantly less profit now
21:41:25 <nielsm> the low-range flat distribution is probably better from a difficulty perspective, although my perception might be skewed by experience ;)
21:42:47 <nielsm> the medium and high levels would seem to make passengers too easy to profit on but are probably interesting for optimization challenge games
21:43:06 <frosch123> well, the total amount of passengers is one thing. but i wonder whether it is possible to actually make the amounts vary, or how many houses does to take to average out any deviations
21:43:19 <nielsm> binomial might be interesting for realism nerds (since it kind-of simulates individual coin flips per potential pax)
21:43:40 <nielsm> but should probably also be tuneable in how much it generates
21:43:46 <frosch123> i think "realism" is a big trap here
21:44:24 <frosch123> if your algorithm has many small random elements, they average out, and in the end there is no randomness
21:44:36 <frosch123> that's kind of what happens with "smooth economy"
21:45:04 <frosch123> if has many small adjustmnets whcih cancel each other out, so there is rarely a big change like with "non-smooth economy"
21:45:11 <nielsm> right, "nothing big ever really happens"?
21:45:26 <frosch123> same applies to ecs. it models so many small details which cancel/average each other, that in the end it does not have any effect
21:46:32 <frosch123> so, i would always go for something that makes the game more diverse than realistic :)
21:46:49 <nielsm> I'm too tired to set anything up now, but my sim could probably be used to build a "full town sim" kind of thing
21:47:00 <frosch123> diverse can make the game interesting, realism can be quite boring
21:47:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: there is too little mail to transport
21:47:49 <andythenorth> or it needs adjusted in newgrf, by increasing value
21:47:52 <frosch123> nielsm: you computed average amounts, can you also compute a standard deviation?
21:49:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: currently nielsm's patch had one setting to adjust 3/4 things: 1. amounts of pax, 2. amount of mail, 3./4. variation fo pax/mail amounts
21:49:20 <frosch123> i try to figure out whether 1. and 2. should be different settings, and whether 3./4. is noticeable at all :)
21:50:03 <nielsm> stddev is probably most interesting if you look at a "whole town" sim, i.e. generation for a cluster of buildings in catchment area of a station
21:50:46 <frosch123> huh? for whole town sim the distribution per house does not matter. it all averages out to the "expected value"
21:50:53 <nielsm> and then sum up a month of values at a time
21:51:22 <frosch123> with gaussian distribution
21:51:50 <frosch123> you can only make small towns interesting, big towns will always be boring :p
21:52:24 <frosch123> (wrt. continuous cargo generation)
21:57:55 <andythenorth> I suspect variation is rarely useful
22:08:39 <andythenorth> I am curious about variation between towns
22:08:53 <andythenorth> and whether there's a single factor that could be exposed to GS or something
22:10:58 <nielsm> something like residents in one town being more likely to take transit than in another town?
22:11:22 <nielsm> I think station rating already covers that plenty
22:11:38 <andythenorth> I was thinking of total generation
22:11:46 <andythenorth> e.g. some towns might like to travel more than others :P
22:11:54 <nielsm> unless you want towns with super angry mayors running smear campaigns against you :P
22:12:10 <andythenorth> tie it to advertising campaign :P
22:12:28 <andythenorth> I only ever use 'bribe' though, dunno what those others do
22:12:43 <nielsm> ad campaign literally raises station ratings
22:13:42 <nielsm> building status gives a permanent station rating boost to stations near the town center
22:14:09 <nielsm> (I don't know if it ties to the town zones, population, or just a fixed range)
22:15:08 <nielsm> funding new buildings is almost always a waste
22:16:22 <frosch123> "commuter towns" vs "tourism towns"
22:16:49 <nielsm> now you're getting into simutrans turf aren't you :P
22:17:11 <andythenorth> one day there'll be a reason to deliver goods
22:17:19 <frosch123> no idea, haven't looked at it in 12 years
22:17:44 <nielsm> play tropical climate and deliver both food and water
22:20:24 <andythenorth> I liked arctic for food above snowline
22:20:36 <andythenorth> everything I want is in GS already
22:20:40 <andythenorth> but GS are single-purpose
22:20:53 <frosch123> when towns grow they switch from accepting sweets to fizzy drinks
22:21:30 <frosch123> if you want a constant acceptance for sweets you either have to move the station or prevent the town from growing
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