IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-11-03
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10:28:33 <TrueBrain> time to try out Digital Ocean .. see what their services is about :)
10:37:04 <andythenorth> we use them for something
10:37:18 <andythenorth> commodity cloud hosts probly
10:39:14 <TrueBrain> they seem to be not as expensive as other cloud operators; still, these things are expensive (in contrast to a dedicated machine); but I guess that makes sense
10:39:53 <andythenorth> we mostly use Rackspace cloud
10:40:09 <andythenorth> but Rackspace are now so disinterested in commodity cloud, it's a joke
10:40:30 <andythenorth> their support responses are basically "oh the host for your VMs went away? GTFO"
10:40:54 <andythenorth> "Would you like to pay us to talk to you about managed cloud?"
10:41:21 <andythenorth> err no, we already pay 5% of our total turnover just to provide VMs thatnks
11:12:39 <nielsm> hm, have anyone made a "tile hacker" debug tool patch before? basically picking any tile and changing the raw map array data for it
11:13:29 <LordAro> peter1138 probably has a patch for it
11:14:30 <TrueBrain> nielsm: I can honestly say I have never seen that request even come by :)
11:14:38 <andythenorth> should I do variable running costs for trains?
11:14:52 <andythenorth> heavier load = more cost
11:15:20 <nielsm> running costs shooting up as the model gets older and finding spare parts becomes harder
11:15:58 <nielsm> as a simulation of fuel/energy costs of pulling a heavier load? as long as it's not excessive sounds good
11:16:12 <andythenorth> I'll probably skip it tbh :)
11:16:26 <andythenorth> Pikka has done it before and I don't know if he is convinced
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12:53:20 <nielsm> I assume any attempt at modifying the airport state machines will produce a massive extra job of writing savegame fixer-uppers
12:59:17 <Wolf01> I still think the running costs should be based on number and colour of pixels
12:59:41 <Wolf01> Even other stats should be based on that
12:59:56 <Wolf01> andythenorth proposed red = more fast
13:01:09 <nielsm> changing company colour scheme should absolutely also cost money then
13:01:16 <nielsm> all the repainting is costly
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13:25:30 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6962: Fix #6676: Prevent helicoptors from stopping in midair during landing https://git.io/fxhTo
13:35:03 <andythenorth> I have no knowledge :P
13:36:16 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6962: Fix #6676: Prevent helicopters from stopping in midair during landing https://git.io/fxhTo
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14:45:38 * andythenorth has running cost headache
15:54:31 * andythenorth wonders about scaling run cost by power * max speed
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15:56:30 <nielsm> it might work, but should probably also take technology and era into account
15:57:16 <nielsm> a steam engine from 1890 and a diesel-electric from 1990 with identical stats on paper are probably going to have wildly different running costs
16:00:47 <nielsm> maybe having a curve of "expected standard stats" over time (by engine introduction year) and scale costs by deviation from that
16:02:20 <andythenorth> due to game balance, running costs increase over time
16:02:41 <andythenorth> I suspect I'm rendering all progression irrelevant here
16:02:43 <nielsm> how about purchase costs dropping somewhat from introduction to somewhere one-third the way to obsolesence?
16:02:58 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 requested changes for pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fxhYI
16:03:05 <nielsm> so purchasing the latest and greatest costs more than getting the mass produced model from last year
16:06:51 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fxhYn
16:12:07 <nielsm> I hope my birds will let me do some coding right now, they occasionally get jealous of the keyboard getting all the scritches
16:14:10 <TrueBrain> nothing a shotgun cannot fix
16:15:54 <andythenorth> hp * speed doesn't scale how I want
16:16:02 <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder about just setting run costs manually :P
16:16:24 <andythenorth> instead of trying to devise an algorithm that comes out matching my subjective goals :P
16:20:28 <frosch123> ((hp * (eletric ? 0.5 : 1))^2 + speed^2) * (0.75 + 0.5*random)
16:21:54 <nielsm> vector length of (power, speed)
16:23:28 <nielsm> frosch123, DisableGrf() wants a StringID, are there any existing that might be usable? :(
16:24:18 <frosch123> STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_INVALID_ID with a bit stretch :)
16:24:31 <nielsm> also every other similar error condition in newindustries loading uses grfmsg
16:24:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: somewhat :P
16:25:29 <frosch123> nielsm: grfmsg means "ottd dev fault". disablegrf means "grf dev fault" :)
16:26:47 <nielsm> plenty of pre-existing wrong uses then
16:27:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: you can use "(intro_year + power*7) % 10" as random
16:29:06 <frosch123> nielsm: yes, history. stuff shifted from "grfs are developed for ttdp, and ottd somehow tries to run them" to "grfs are developed for ottd, and ottd has to hell-a-lot catch up on grf error reporting"
16:29:55 <frosch123> there was a time inbetween where a lot of grfs where wrong, and noone noticed since noone used ttdp and ottd just ignored errors
16:31:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: "random" is the same as "too complex to see a pattern"
16:32:12 <frosch123> if you find a pattern, add a more properties with other prime factors to the sum
16:32:42 <nielsm> meh going to add this then
16:32:42 <nielsm> STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_PROPERTY_OUT_OF_RANGE :Property value out of range in sprite {0:HEX}: Property={1:HEX}, value={2:NUM}, minimum={3:NUM}, maximum={4:NUM}
16:32:58 <nielsm> ah sprite number should be decimal
17:14:05 <frosch123> i think you cannot add arbitrary parameters
17:14:10 <frosch123> only what is in GRFError
17:15:40 <frosch123> SetDParam(4 + i, c->error->param_value[i]);
17:15:49 <frosch123> integers are in param 4 and 5
17:16:47 <frosch123> the first one is already the sprite number
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17:27:18 <andythenorth> the principal problem with running costs is the scale
17:27:28 <andythenorth> the high end is 10000hp and 200mph
17:27:38 <andythenorth> but most trains are bunched at the low end
17:27:42 <andythenorth> so their costs bunch
17:28:25 <nielsm> that's part of why you probably need to make introduction year part of the calculation in some way
17:28:58 <andythenorth> it already is :)
17:29:18 <andythenorth> the run cost factor is a prop limited to 255
17:29:30 <andythenorth> most of the trains have values at 100 or less :P
17:31:05 <frosch123> add a sqrt() to stretch the bottom and compress the top
17:31:40 <andythenorth> that's an interesting idea
17:32:06 <andythenorth> I am considering resetting the base cost factor
17:32:09 <frosch123> or ln() if sqrt() is not enough
17:32:11 <andythenorth> it's default at the moment
17:32:25 <nielsm> I tried making a costs rebalance mod for transport fever at a point, but never managed to make purchase and running cost formulas I was satisfied with
17:33:16 <frosch123> is transport fever like ottd? as in: there is only one metric (money) and it behaves exponentially
17:35:53 <nielsm> (what keeps me from playing it is that the industry chains feel lifeless, everything is predictable and scale in boring ways, and then there's the poor performance of the game engine)
17:36:16 <nielsm> (also the moddability is too static to allow for truly interesting things)
17:36:56 <andythenorth> hmm 10000hp is a lot :P
17:36:58 <Wolf01> The problem with TF is that it seem you only can multiply the base values, but it has a working daylenght mod :P
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17:39:02 <nielsm> TF also has no real running infrastructure costs at all
17:39:16 <nielsm> which means electrified rail is a total no-brainer
17:43:08 <Wolf01> <nielsm> TF also has no real running infrastructure costs at all <- but all the construction costs are completely fucked up
17:43:08 <Wolf01> Even a passenger coach costs 10 times the engine
17:43:45 <nielsm> yeah that's one of the isses I had and why I tried making that rebalance mod
17:44:09 <Wolf01> I don't know if that was the way they wanted to balance the economy
17:45:27 <Wolf01> Also vehicles scale up with capacity and speed but clearly it's not the right way, the specs are completely wrong, like a 4 passengers car which can carry 12 passengers
17:46:26 <nielsm> all the capacities specified in their definitions are 4x the in-game value
17:47:14 <nielsm> perhaps that their simulation would bog down too early if there were 4x the number of agents in play
17:47:41 <nielsm> so they divide the capacities by 4 on loading the game data
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17:49:20 <Wolf01> Meh, ISP is breaking balls...
17:49:52 <Wolf01> BTW, that's why I would like to play it only to build things and decorate instead of caring about making profitable routes
17:51:03 <nielsm> I quite like their track building tools and options yes
17:51:47 <nielsm> could use some better tools to control height/depth and grades, but overall they're doing that part right
17:53:14 <nielsm> (compared, cities:skylines is doing it wrong by using splines rather than circle arcs for curved roads/tracks)
18:25:27 <andythenorth> maybe I should try and repro the road vehicle depot-finding bug
18:25:39 <andythenorth> then I could maybe play with breakdowns on
18:26:28 <andythenorth> probably I'm the only player using RVs?
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18:29:33 <frosch123> or the only player using automatic servicing
18:30:55 <andythenorth> I switched to service-by-order, then I turned breakdowns off
18:31:08 <andythenorth> endless "vehicle can't find route to depot" stuff
18:31:13 <andythenorth> but I never repro-ed it reliably
18:31:22 <andythenorth> that was probly 10 years ago :P
18:31:32 <Wolf01> Wtf, learn to build roads properly :P
18:31:49 <andythenorth> vehicle drives past depot
18:32:15 <andythenorth> if I turn breakdowns on, I could actually care about reliability in Horse
18:32:31 <nielsm> frosch123 has there ever been a suggestion to print (selected categories of) debug messages to the in-game console?
18:32:51 <nielsm> so e.g. grf debug messages could be visible to more people
18:33:14 <nielsm> it should probably be a command to enable it or such
18:33:30 <frosch123> yes, someone suggested to redirect DEBUG to the console
18:33:48 <frosch123> but DEBUG can be quite a lot
18:35:26 <nielsm> dwarf fortress style "we just chiseled tracks into the ground rock"
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18:58:02 <nielsm> frosch123: that should be everything :)
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19:12:23 <nielsm> I'll squash all the changes to the pretty commits a bit later
19:13:39 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fxhCW
19:19:36 <nielsm> but moving a change from one commit to another is annoying :(
19:38:46 <frosch123> nielsm: GRFError does not work with string literals in "data"
19:39:07 <frosch123> it does a free in ~GRFError
19:39:26 <frosch123> so you need some stredup or so
19:39:41 <frosch123> i think "strdup" is not allowed
19:39:43 <nielsm> may as well format it too in that case, with more info
19:42:46 <nielsm> okay no formatting, then I need to set up buffers and other annoying things
20:00:13 <frosch123> nielsm: no more comments from me
20:01:30 <nielsm> cool, I'll make a squash later then
20:45:12 <nielsm> gah clicked rebuild all instead of normal build
20:45:23 <nielsm> not that it matters much when strings.h has changed :P
21:02:36 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fxhYI
21:11:28 <michi_cc> LordAro: Better now? ^^ :)
21:24:13 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fxhBz
21:24:38 <nielsm> andythenorth let's throw a party tomorrow
21:25:26 <nielsm> there's also the houses accepts patch
21:25:43 <nielsm> but it should probably have a bit more error handling
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21:31:55 <andythenorth> now I just need a reliable build :D
21:32:29 <andythenorth> this stack of patches is a bit ugly :P
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21:44:47 <glx> maybe I could force merge #6960
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22:14:43 <andythenorth> I could do with wagon running costs in different range to engines :P
22:16:42 <andythenorth> I jacked up running cost base to get a good range for engines
22:17:00 <andythenorth> now I don't have enough fine grain control over wagons :P
22:18:35 <andythenorth> hmm maybe I can cheart
22:48:16 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6872: Add: Houses can accept up to 16 different cargo types via NewGRF https://git.io/fNanB
23:06:28 <andythenorth> this running cost thing so nearly works :(
23:06:32 <andythenorth> but the top end is now too low :(
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23:46:59 <andythenorth> I can't define arbitrary running cost bases?
23:47:11 <andythenorth> so that I can scale them differently?
23:51:30 <frosch123> runninc cost bases are for basecost-mods
23:51:47 <frosch123> you have 15bit price multiplier range, should be enough
23:52:07 <frosch123> which engine cost 32768 times more than a wagon?
23:53:11 <frosch123> wait, running cost? why do wagons have running costs?
23:53:36 <frosch123> but still, 32k is enough even for running cost
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23:59:28 <frosch123> you are lucky, you missed my answer :)
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