IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-11-04
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00:03:28 <andythenorth> I went past the microwave
00:03:38 <andythenorth> which blocks the wifi :P
00:04:08 <frosch123> probably aliens contacting you
00:04:47 <andythenorth> or the faraday cage :P
00:05:30 <andythenorth> wait, running cost factor is only 0-255 no?
00:06:39 <frosch123> depends whther you put it into "properties" or "graphics" :p
00:06:48 <frosch123> 8bit property, 15bit callback
00:07:10 <andythenorth> that would avoid some evil I'm doing
00:07:27 <andythenorth> currently I'm abusing electric base cost
00:07:29 <andythenorth> which is a bad idea
00:22:27 <nielsm> well, it's missing ships
00:25:53 <frosch123> at least there is a toy factory
00:38:06 * LordAro has a soft spot for toyland
00:38:30 <LordAro> i used to play mad dog's toyshop(?) in ttd a lot when i was much younger
00:39:07 <nielsm> toyland is really hard mode, just because there's so few vehicle models and they're all worse than those in the normal climates
00:39:32 <LordAro> yeah, i don't think i ever got further than the 4th train?
00:39:44 <LordAro> (lost interest or otherwise)
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08:39:52 <andythenorth> can't have negative running costs?
08:52:34 * andythenorth had an idea for caboose wagons that are more than just eye candy :P
09:50:48 <TrueBrain> negative running cost .. .you are weird :P
10:00:14 *** Progman has joined #openttd
10:23:48 <TrueBrain> that moment that GitHub introduced something new, you are signed up for the beta program, but not accepted yet, and it is exactly what you need/want ... are you going to spend time to duplicate the functionality, or do you wait ...
10:28:18 <andythenorth> how much you need it?
10:28:26 * andythenorth would always wait :P
10:28:33 <andythenorth> no shortage of fun other things to do
10:28:34 <TrueBrain> it removes Jenkins from the whole bla
10:28:51 <TrueBrain> but no clue if waiting it 1 month, or 1 year :P
10:28:53 <andythenorth> how I will miss him
10:45:08 <TrueBrain> funny, SemVer2 defines everything behind the major.minor.patch as prerelease
10:45:12 <TrueBrain> which is totally fine ofc
10:45:28 <TrueBrain> but this always makes it a bit difficult if you use 'git describe' to describe how far away from a tag you are
10:45:35 <TrueBrain> as that is postrelease, not pre :P
10:46:49 <nielsm> I guess you're supposed to bump the major/minor/patch right after a release then? so you always indicate what the next version will be
10:47:05 <TrueBrain> but than you need tooling that understands this 'bump' version
10:47:09 <TrueBrain> as git won't have that information
10:47:18 <TrueBrain> and depending on the content of a repository, this information is in different places
10:47:20 <nielsm> initially bump patch by 1, and when you do a breaking change you bump minor or major and reset the remaining
10:47:42 <TrueBrain> I wish git could have 'forseen' tags :D
10:52:14 <andythenorth> all we need is predicting the future
10:52:40 <TrueBrain> you just want one way to define the 'next version', independing on the content of the repository
10:52:43 <TrueBrain> which is not trivial
10:53:04 <TrueBrain> or you need to dedicate a single file to contain that content
10:57:05 <TrueBrain> (my clipboard still doesnt work :P)
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11:00:57 <TrueBrain> why is this channel still registered only?
11:02:00 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TrueBrain
11:02:23 <TrueBrain> when are we moving to Slack? :P
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11:04:34 <andythenorth> dunno why I am anti Slack
11:04:38 <andythenorth> everyone I know uses it
11:05:12 <andythenorth> I'm waiting to be told the answer: isn't Discord just better?
11:05:36 <TrueBrain> Discord is being a bit weird .. seems to want to become the next Steam ..
11:05:41 <TrueBrain> and I find it really hard there to follow any conversation
11:06:45 *** matt21347 has joined #openttd
11:09:40 <TrueBrain> I wonder what would happen if we say: the new BaNaNaS only publishes files from a GitHub repository
11:10:07 <TrueBrain> absolute panic, I am afraid :P
11:11:13 <TrueBrain> it is more in character of OpenTTD's Open Source ideology ofc
11:11:25 <TrueBrain> and would allow to make a nice auto-release around it
11:11:41 <TrueBrain> I also have been thinking we can use the new 'pypi' as used by Python
11:11:56 <TrueBrain> as that basically has everything we are looking for, as far as I can tell
11:12:51 <TrueBrain> either way, I am slowly trying to word why I am having a bit of a hard time cleaning up the OpenTTD infrastructure
11:13:10 <TrueBrain> it is not only huge, there is also a lot of interaction between components which have 'organicaly grown'
11:14:13 <andythenorth> usual amount of mess? o_O
11:14:41 <andythenorth> unclear boundaries between proper domains?
11:14:46 <andythenorth> stuff and things
11:15:02 <TrueBrain> yup; how things were done 15 years ago :P
11:15:15 <TrueBrain> over the years I did try to split away services I could
11:15:21 <TrueBrain> but some I never managed to untangle
11:15:38 <TrueBrain> services calling internal services back then was a big no-no
11:15:41 <TrueBrain> now it is the most common thing ever
11:15:55 <TrueBrain> in result, the webserver running www.openttd.org also runs most other domains, as there is crosstalk :P
11:17:08 <TrueBrain> and I cannot find a clean path to do a nice migration. Seems it needs more of a big-bang than I would like
11:17:56 <TrueBrain> I know how I want the result to look .. just the road to it .. ugh ..
11:18:04 <TrueBrain> anyway, any feedback on the above document is very welcome :)
11:26:38 <nielsm> does the CI pipeline protect sufficiently against malicious changes to makefile, strgen, etc?
11:27:06 <TrueBrain> no, as that sadly is nearly impossible
11:27:24 <TrueBrain> well, not in the sense that it is validated or something
11:27:27 <TrueBrain> it is simply fenced
11:27:34 <TrueBrain> that is why there is so much Docker image talk
11:27:43 <TrueBrain> and in the CI, if an image runs more than N minutes, it is killed
11:27:47 <TrueBrain> it has no internet connection
11:28:22 <TrueBrain> that is also why the preview is a whitelist command; which ever developer triggers a preview, really should be sure there is nothing weird going on :)
11:29:29 <TrueBrain> but very explcitly, the CI doesn't publish anything
11:31:00 <Wolf01> Let's see if the new router works better
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11:35:15 <TrueBrain> nielsm: added some bla about that part :)
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12:11:41 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2135
12:12:04 <Wolf01> Mmmh, changing the timezone requires reboot
12:14:29 <TrueBrain> right .. I tried to see which service I could use as proof-of-concept for the above ...
12:14:51 <TrueBrain> MS + MSU is integrated in the main website. The correct solution is to split those services in an API based system, instead of via MySQL
12:15:07 <TrueBrain> ottd_content is heavily integrated with too many subservices to count .. ugh
12:15:37 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is most decoupled; it just needs to know which user is logged in, access to MySQL, and access to a file storage to write files
12:16:08 <TrueBrain> main website is decoupled a lot; it can use local files or can poll a http for its information
12:16:15 <TrueBrain> I years ago already started to decouple that
12:16:23 <TrueBrain> so I guess the main website is the primary candidate ..
12:16:32 <TrueBrain> has some minor MySQL queries it needs
12:16:44 <TrueBrain> even there, a rewrite could be faster than trying to move it ..
12:18:01 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: isn't frosch solving bananas?
12:18:21 <TrueBrain> (which is totally fine btw)
12:18:35 <andythenorth> main website 1:1 reimplmentation? No content or style changes?
12:19:04 <TrueBrain> I even once did that like a year ago
12:19:11 <TrueBrain> so I guess that is the best thing to pick up
12:19:24 <andythenorth> ideally it would be in a safe place so people like me could modify it
12:19:28 <andythenorth> that might even be true now
12:19:34 <andythenorth> but I have NFI how I'd start :P
12:19:46 <TrueBrain> I was thinking of making it a fully static website
12:19:52 <andythenorth> I've dug around the web repos before, but it all looks strung together
12:19:55 <TrueBrain> so if you have a blog to post, make a commit in the repository for it
12:20:02 <andythenorth> I'm a big fan of static web content
12:20:10 <TrueBrain> the only dynamic part is the server-listing
12:20:17 <andythenorth> all my newgrf docs are static, compile-once
12:20:20 <TrueBrain> so I was wondering if we should just make that javascript-only
12:20:26 <andythenorth> seems reasonable
12:20:43 <TrueBrain> currently it is 'static' (server-side generated)
12:20:58 <andythenorth> seems obvious candidate for XHR?
12:21:18 <TrueBrain> I like that the website is without javascript tbh
12:21:28 <andythenorth> node on the server :P
12:21:32 <TrueBrain> and the top banner is a bit of an issue
12:21:48 <TrueBrain> that will always be dynamic, I guess
12:22:07 <andythenorth> edge side includes? :P
12:22:43 <TrueBrain> I guess what I can do, is setup a small API in the old infrastructure
12:22:49 <TrueBrain> which gives both the server listing as the downloads
12:23:07 <TrueBrain> make the new website a very simple server-side static-page webserver
12:23:25 <TrueBrain> (so do the API calls on the server, instead on the client)
12:23:39 <TrueBrain> that decouples it a bit more
12:23:55 <andythenorth> the less we have to pick a framework, the happier I would be
12:24:18 <TrueBrain> I really really want to avoid Django or something :P
12:24:25 <andythenorth> is Apache + a WSGI server too simple?
12:24:27 <TrueBrain> I was thinking aiohttp
12:24:57 <TrueBrain> well, it will run in kubernetes, so it will be nginx-loadbalancer, with for example aiohttp (via http)
12:25:09 <TrueBrain> that scales stupid-well
12:25:12 <andythenorth> aiohttp looks simple at first glance
12:25:17 <TrueBrain> possibly a memcache or redis for caching
12:25:32 <TrueBrain> Python3.6 async ftw .. makes coding so much easier
12:25:35 <andythenorth> I have a makefile that generates static html pages from templated source :P
12:25:49 <TrueBrain> that is the other solution
12:25:58 <TrueBrain> snapshot the website every 5 minutes or so
12:26:01 <TrueBrain> from dynamic information
12:26:22 <andythenorth> and just say 'server list updated every 5 mins'?
12:26:31 <TrueBrain> that is already what happens
12:26:37 <TrueBrain> as the server list is EXPENSIVE to generate :P
12:26:41 <andythenorth> I don't object to JS personally, except obviously JS is horrible
12:26:48 <andythenorth> it's pretty much universal
12:27:09 <andythenorth> it's also horrible to write, and I don't even want to think about the opsec implications of it :P
12:27:16 <TrueBrain> what is also 'hot', that if you don't have javascript, you are piped through a system that generates the page for you
12:27:47 <andythenorth> let me know if you want me to write any html :P
12:28:04 <TrueBrain> you just said to copy/paste the current :P
12:28:17 <TrueBrain> guess it is a matter of picking what method to use
12:30:00 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'd like to look over your suggestions, but am busy until this evening :(
12:30:16 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I welcome any feedback :)
12:30:27 <TrueBrain> it is not like I can execute what I wrote in a day, so no worries ;)
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12:43:20 <andythenorth> I should probably keep running costs simple eh, no 'cost more as engine gets older' stuff :P
12:47:43 <andythenorth> just poured coffee into my laptop keyboard
12:48:14 <andythenorth> nothing to do with the image :P
12:48:34 <andythenorth> yup, keyboard doesn't work anyway, again
12:48:35 <Wolf01> *the coffee, not the laptop
12:48:39 <andythenorth> so time to buy yet another new mac
12:48:44 <andythenorth> keys last about 60 days
12:48:51 <andythenorth> then have to buy a new computer from Apple
12:49:49 <andythenorth> gotta keep the share price up by shipping defective computers
12:50:22 <Wolf01> They create a problem and sell the solution
12:51:35 <andythenorth> there's no cost to Apple from it
12:51:50 <andythenorth> Mac sales numbers continue same whether they work or not
12:57:06 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: did I summarize that correct?
12:59:39 <andythenorth> do we need multi-lingual support in the website?
12:59:41 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2137
13:00:10 <TrueBrain> but I think we needed that 10 years ago
13:00:21 <andythenorth> it's just extra....stuff :P
13:00:23 <TrueBrain> there are countries where they speak very little English
13:00:46 <Wolf01> So, even with this router it disconnects
13:01:31 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: looks about right to me
13:01:43 <TrueBrain> I tackled things easier by just redirecting to the old server :P
13:01:48 <TrueBrain> like old-www.openttd.org
13:01:58 <TrueBrain> solves creating an API or something NOW, rather than later
13:01:59 <andythenorth> I kind of ran into the weeds, thinking about how we'd store blog posts, dev descriptions etc
13:02:20 <andythenorth> whether they're html, json etc
13:02:27 <andythenorth> not an important issue now
13:02:36 <TrueBrain> that is not a bad idea tbh
13:02:38 <TrueBrain> if we template anyway
13:02:42 <TrueBrain> just put these things in yaml files
13:02:46 <andythenorth> that sort of thing yes
13:02:48 <TrueBrain> easier to read/maintain etc
13:03:02 <andythenorth> we want to be decouple from the html as far as possible
13:03:08 <andythenorth> blog posts are probably better as MD or RST
13:03:31 <andythenorth> can't remember which one won but eh
13:04:00 <TrueBrain> those are also easy to edit via the GitHub interface
13:04:06 <andythenorth> oh yes they are :D
13:04:08 <TrueBrain> so writing a blog post can be done from GitHub if you like :)
13:04:22 <TrueBrain> I think a blog post should be both a markdown and a yaml file or something .. we will see
13:04:29 <TrueBrain> (meta-data vs content)
13:04:46 <andythenorth> so simple framework to deal with http stuff
13:04:55 <andythenorth> some publishing classes to handle different content types
13:05:13 <andythenorth> and either static compile (pull latest tag and compile every 5 minutes) or use the framework
13:05:33 <andythenorth> presumably you have some magic thing for polling for new tags?
13:05:47 <TrueBrain> no no, I think you mix two things now :)
13:05:57 <TrueBrain> the repository will compile into a Docker image
13:06:01 <TrueBrain> which runs in the infrastructure
13:06:08 <TrueBrain> inside that Docker image you have 2 choices:
13:06:15 <TrueBrain> either JiT create the content
13:06:19 <TrueBrain> or create it every N minutes
13:06:42 <TrueBrain> (so either something like Flask, ..., or nginx + a script that does the templating)
13:06:58 <TrueBrain> a new blog posts means a new docker image means a new deployment
13:07:07 <TrueBrain> which is exactly what you want btw .. as that allows rolling back etc :)
13:07:20 <andythenorth> JiT or N minutes are both fine with me, it really depends what framework is used, no point fighting the framework to make it do opposite of what it's designed for :)
13:08:14 <TrueBrain> both are valid approaches and have their pros/cons
13:08:24 <TrueBrain> mainly depends for what you optimize
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13:19:00 <nielsm> and there is an accidental č in "ačceptance"
13:19:46 <nielsm> and missing space after the not-patch icon for prop 12 new flag
13:23:40 <frosch123> nielsm: you can login there with your tt-forums account
13:25:31 <nielsm> if I could remember what password I used there
13:25:44 <nielsm> should add it to my password manager
13:25:55 <frosch123> didn't you just post a few days ago? :p
13:26:11 <frosch123> 12 year old cookie?
13:26:31 <nielsm> nah more like 10-11 months old
13:30:56 <nielsm> well, turns out I can't sign in to the wiki after changing forums password, "Auto-creation of a local account failed: Automatic account creation is not allowed. "
13:31:22 <frosch123> orudge: ^^ any idea?
13:32:21 <andythenorth> I see that some times
13:32:30 <andythenorth> I don't know what causes it to get fixed though
13:32:38 <andythenorth> I was locked out of wiki for several years
13:35:50 <frosch123> nielsm: 0A..0C can't be negative. that only works for 13
13:36:19 <frosch123> and i think we shouldn't change that
13:37:48 <nielsm> agree it could break old things
13:38:03 <nielsm> I just remembered it as blindly loading in the bytes
13:38:21 <frosch123> currently there is a Clamp in the code, so i would expect some grfs to set 0xFF to make it maximum accepting :p
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13:59:06 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: after some thinking, it is only the download banner that is left as 'dynamic'. So generating static files every N minutes is much less work I guess .. still .. not sure which option is best :D
14:00:10 <andythenorth> it really depends on framework
14:00:24 <andythenorth> having a makefile spit out static assets to filesystem is ez, but we have to write one to do it
14:00:32 <TrueBrain> if you generate the static files on start of the Docker, and than every N minutes the main.html .. that sounds easiest
14:00:50 <TrueBrain> or even during building of the Docker
14:00:51 <andythenorth> if we pick a framework that has a request object and templating built in
14:01:00 <andythenorth> then that's ez too, but frameworks go out of fashion
14:01:07 <andythenorth> make never does :P
14:01:07 <TrueBrain> yeah .. I think it is more: use a framework yes/no :P
14:01:17 <TrueBrain> as you really dont need one for this
14:01:25 <TrueBrain> you just need some minor server-side-include
14:01:27 <andythenorth> just use a http server, simple
14:01:37 <TrueBrain> meaning you can link it directly into nginx .. blazing fast :P
14:01:45 <andythenorth> easier for people to pick up and develop on too
14:02:03 <TrueBrain> and if we put the dynamic parts in other services
14:02:06 <TrueBrain> those might need a framework
14:02:13 <TrueBrain> but they are in the minority
14:02:44 <andythenorth> most of it is just helper formatting crap
14:02:54 <andythenorth> the actual generation is the kind of thing can be written in 1 hour
14:02:59 <andythenorth> and re-written as needed
14:03:20 <andythenorth> does templates, txt, MD, graphviz, images
14:04:02 <andythenorth> make calls that as needed
14:04:53 <andythenorth> frameworks tend to attract rewrites in framework-du-jour :P
14:06:28 <TrueBrain> I wonder if eints can do Markdown translations :P
14:07:15 <TrueBrain> owh, I forgot we also have a list of languages that need support
14:07:51 <TrueBrain> does anyone ever noticed that the background image on the main site changes every day? :P
14:08:16 <frosch123> i think you told that before, i never verified
14:08:40 <TrueBrain> having screenshots in the repository might also mean they will get updated once in a while, I guess
14:09:32 <frosch123> aww, no longer "latest user screenshot"?
14:09:50 <TrueBrain> I think there wil be
14:09:55 <TrueBrain> we can template that :)
14:10:06 <frosch123> i kind of liked the dynamic version number in that screenshot :)
14:10:20 <TrueBrain> I like how it has given so few complaints :P
14:10:29 <TrueBrain> it shows the same for .. 5 years now? :P
14:10:43 <TrueBrain> owh, it is not even the 1.4 indeed
14:11:04 <frosch123> i think it was 2008. so 10
14:11:14 <TrueBrain> game still looks the same, so meh :D
14:13:05 <andythenorth> I should mail in some screenshots eh?
14:13:19 <andythenorth> I like how they're in no particular order
14:13:31 <andythenorth> 0.5.0 is after 0.4.8
14:13:35 <andythenorth> but 0.6.0 is before
14:13:35 <frosch123> there is a mail folder "unhandled screenshots" or so
14:14:12 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: order is sorted by mtime .. and someone changed a 0.4.8 screenshot between0.5 and 0.6 :P
14:14:44 <TrueBrain> what I like that all screenshots look the same .. I do not spot what has changed for that versions :D
14:15:16 <frosch123> and you will find screenshots which are not from the version listed
14:15:29 <TrueBrain> those are the best!
14:16:06 <TrueBrain> I still like the cake :D
14:16:12 <TrueBrain> mostly as the screenshot on the cake is a lie :D
14:17:59 <andythenorth> well it's nice when we delete them :)
14:18:06 * andythenorth likes scorched earth
14:18:37 <frosch123> but well, the distinguishing only works for older version, which added more visible features
14:19:02 <frosch123> though maybe andy can recognise firs versions
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14:20:17 <andythenorth> who was the copywriter? o_O
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14:22:07 <Brainspackle> ⁄！⧵ ΑΤΤΝ: Thiѕ cһaᥒnеl hɑs moved to irϲ.freeᥒodᥱ.nеt #/join /!⧹
14:22:18 <TrueBrain> that is STILL going on? Lol
14:22:26 <frosch123> that was the reason for R :)
14:22:34 <TrueBrain> I assumed that would have gone away by now :(
14:22:43 <TrueBrain> move to Slack you say? :P
14:23:36 <andythenorth> because slack is not exploitable for mal?
14:23:51 <TrueBrain> because on Slack they dont ask you to join freenode-shit
14:26:58 <andythenorth> oof so if I get slack
14:27:06 <andythenorth> I can't leave arbitrary channels
14:27:22 <andythenorth> we're considering switching work irc to slack
14:27:36 <andythenorth> but then I'll be required to be in work channels in evenings and weekends
14:28:18 <andythenorth> ok so there's a teams thing
14:28:49 <Wolf01> I won't move to slack, discord, shitstuff in general :P
14:29:03 <andythenorth> you will in the end
14:29:04 <TrueBrain> they made an XKCD for you
14:29:34 <Wolf01> I will only if I want to keep contact with people, but do I really want it?
14:29:40 <andythenorth> that's the XKCD where nothing has won yet?
14:29:45 <andythenorth> I hate this shit
14:29:49 <andythenorth> I wish something would just win
14:30:23 <andythenorth> yeah that's what we'll do at work
14:30:39 <andythenorth> slack<->irc bridge for some people
14:30:42 <TrueBrain> its sad, but that XKCD is really true
14:30:49 <TrueBrain> some people have a weird fetish with IRC
14:30:53 <andythenorth> it's just simple
14:31:01 <andythenorth> and there's no company involved
14:31:42 <TrueBrain> no history, no offline messaging, no images (lolz), doesnt integrate with anything (not really anyway), ..
14:31:44 <Wolf01> Because you don't have stickers, images, the emoticons are weird?
14:31:54 <TrueBrain> but mostly, I hate IRC for the lack of history
14:31:58 <TrueBrain> it kinda forces you to be always-on
14:32:08 <Wolf01> Starcraft classic chat was on irc, I joined that may times
14:32:38 <TrueBrain> I noticed that since I started to use non-IRC stuff, life got a bit easier :) People can message me while I am offline, I can answer when-ever
14:32:48 <TrueBrain> channels where people announce things I can read back on with ease
14:32:53 <TrueBrain> basically, an IRC bouncer done right
14:32:54 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: you just described all the upsides :P
14:33:00 <andythenorth> no history, no messaging, no images
14:33:14 <andythenorth> anyway, I am waiting for Slack to have definitively won
14:33:26 <TrueBrain> Discord is winning big for games
14:33:32 <andythenorth> it has yet to kill either Discord or Whatsapp
14:33:37 <TrueBrain> but that is mainly because of voice and game integration
14:33:49 <TrueBrain> Mattermost is getting ground in companies, because HipChat said: BYE
14:34:03 <TrueBrain> (Mattermost can be run on-premise)
14:34:06 <Wolf01> The big problem is that you *MUST* register even to read, that's not what I want
14:34:19 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: you do know this channel is running +R atm right? :P
14:34:28 <Wolf01> Yes, but it's not the default
14:35:08 <TrueBrain> Mattermost was clever; When HipChat announced they were stopping, they jumped on all threads and announced that they exist
14:35:17 <TrueBrain> like GitLab did with GitHub takeover by Microsoft :P
14:35:25 <andythenorth> they're selling 'you can do compliance'?
14:35:31 <andythenorth> but I would rather Slack did the compliance
14:35:36 <andythenorth> they have a shareprice to maintain
14:35:45 <Wolf01> And I'm registered because I need (or might need) to use all the irc services, not just to read or join this chan
14:35:52 <andythenorth> whereas hiring and managing people to do compliance is frigging hard
14:35:56 <TrueBrain> in general, I am a fan of Cloud-based solutions; how ever annoying they might be, they are a lot more stable than any other
14:36:27 <TrueBrain> also the reason I am very happy with GitHub
14:36:34 <TrueBrain> nobody has to maintain it :)
14:36:42 <TrueBrain> (well, they do, but who cares about that :P)
14:36:58 <TrueBrain> that said, I am not using Slack myself atm; nobody to talk to :(
14:36:59 <andythenorth> github, that's who. github cares :P
14:37:06 <andythenorth> TrueBrain should I get slack?
14:37:10 <andythenorth> we can 'chat' :P
14:37:20 <TrueBrain> on the new website we just publish Slack details
14:37:27 <TrueBrain> and see how long these old rats here survive :P
14:38:12 <Wolf01> I'll continue to join here until the server dies :P
14:38:30 <TrueBrain> you see IRC servers getting lower and lower volume of active people
14:38:37 <TrueBrain> I wonder when it comes to a value that is not sustainable
14:38:48 <TrueBrain> guess therew ill always be those few that want to be on IRC :D
14:38:58 <frosch123> sounds like "i installed irc and made it autostart, i do not know how to remove it, so i pretend it is intentional"
14:39:55 <Wolf01> TBH, I still use irc to join here, I have 3 chans on another server where I'm the only one active
14:41:29 <andythenorth> most of the people in this channel aren't reading it, right?
14:41:34 <nielsm> my dislike for discord, slack, etc. is that they're heavyweight protocols with heavyweight clients, and you aren't really free to make your own client (in part because the protocol is a moving target)
14:41:43 <andythenorth> they set up a bouncer in 2004 and forgot
14:42:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: we lost about 20 people last year
14:42:07 <nielsm> and they're centralized, it's not your server and it can't be your server
14:42:15 <frosch123> we used to be around 120-130 users, now there are 90-100
14:42:17 <nielsm> (despite discord abusing the "server" moiniker)
14:44:09 <Wolf01> frosch123, we really are like 20, we lost like 4 active people in the last year
14:44:21 <TrueBrain> oeh, what I also like about Slack / MatterMost, they have 'threads' .. where you can follow a conversation inside a channel, while other conversations happen
14:44:44 <andythenorth> I like mixed threads, keeps my brain juicy
14:45:13 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so, can you make the Docker stuff, choose a http server, and make it serve a simple index.html on staging.openttd.org ?
14:45:19 <andythenorth> and put it in a repo
14:45:26 <andythenorth> and tell me how to build it :P
14:45:31 <TrueBrain> I am looking into it
14:52:34 <TrueBrain> Jekyll is used a lot for these kind of websites, it seems
14:52:59 <TrueBrain> but ... ruby ... brrr :P
14:53:35 <andythenorth> I'm not very interested in learning ruby :P
14:55:11 <andythenorth> Liquid looks fine
14:55:39 <andythenorth> such templating languages
14:55:46 <andythenorth> I only know Chameleon :P
14:55:57 <TrueBrain> I was first installing Slack
14:56:04 <TrueBrain> just ... BECAUSE I CAN
14:58:52 <TrueBrain> and browseing github, how others do their frontpage
14:58:56 <TrueBrain> it is amazing what you find
14:59:13 <andythenorth> jekyll looks remarkably like a finished version of how I build stuff
14:59:22 <andythenorth> newgrf docs, and internal work docs
15:01:23 <TrueBrain> it looks pretty okay tbh
15:01:27 <andythenorth> I could scale vehicle purchase costs by game start date
15:02:05 <TrueBrain> it is simple, to the point, nothing more than needed
15:02:28 <TrueBrain> I just have no clue how to do the download banner with it :D
15:02:41 <andythenorth> I am reading about Pelican
15:03:02 <nielsm> andythenorth, you mean so the vehicles available early on in the game are cheap?
15:03:09 <nielsm> regardless of your start date
15:03:11 <andythenorth> when you don't have much money yes
15:03:14 <andythenorth> I think it doesn't work
15:03:18 <nielsm> that sounds like a decent idea
15:03:24 <andythenorth> almost like a discount :P
15:03:30 <andythenorth> 'get started' discount
15:03:40 <andythenorth> maybe a GS should do that
15:03:58 <nielsm> if you start in 1980 and even the cheapest loco costs £150k it's hard getting started :P
15:05:36 <TrueBrain> feels like that is too minimalistic tbh
15:06:15 <TrueBrain> but it shows 2 things I need to solve: I need a Docker that first generates files to be included in another docker. I did not consider that yet :D
15:06:33 <TrueBrain> second, the download banner is more annoying than expected :)
15:09:17 <TrueBrain> changes to the banner is a rare event
15:09:28 <TrueBrain> basically, on some signal, you just want to rebuild the image and deploy it, I guess
15:09:46 <TrueBrain> making multiple versions of the same git tag, which is bad
15:09:54 <TrueBrain> but commiting a new version every time a nightly is done, is also shitty
15:20:41 <TrueBrain> okay, what will work, is if we use a Docker image which has nginx and jekyll in it .. then on boot you can fetch the latest downloads, generate the website
15:20:52 <TrueBrain> and validate every N minutes if the latest download changed; if so, regenerate
15:20:58 <TrueBrain> not perfect, but good enough for now
15:27:59 <andythenorth> is local dev done in a docker image, or directly?
15:33:03 <TrueBrain> meh, 'gems' that need 'gcc'
15:33:06 <TrueBrain> that is never a good sign
15:33:15 <andythenorth> is that not normal?
15:33:36 <andythenorth> I only use ruby for the mac ports tree thing, and that needs gcc frequently :P
15:33:44 <TrueBrain> I hate it when it does
15:33:54 <TrueBrain> it often is also for silly shit
15:34:43 <andythenorth> tbf, newgrfs used to require GCC :P
15:34:44 <TrueBrain> but for Dockerfiles, this often means: install gcc, do stuff, uninstall gcc
15:35:41 <TrueBrain> in this case, jekyll wants to install a http parser
15:35:46 <TrueBrain> I dont want his http part
15:38:41 * andythenorth distrusts 'here is all you need' solutions :P
15:39:54 <TrueBrain> it always wants me to make it myself
15:40:00 <TrueBrain> but .. that just adds yet-another-solution to the mix :)
15:43:31 <TrueBrain> life is never simple :P
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15:52:27 <TrueBrain> meh .. the webserver thing is really cramped into Jekyll
15:52:31 <TrueBrain> guess we are not going touse Jekyll :P
15:58:57 <frosch123> oh, flask already has a openid-connect extension
16:01:23 <TrueBrain> that works with GitHub, or?
16:02:45 <frosch123> i assumed so... but some 2015 post says it does some custom oauth2 hack
16:03:22 <TrueBrain> lot of apps allow you to use GitHub as authentication, so not that question I guess?
16:06:18 <TrueBrain> okay, Jekyll is still in the running .. 'apk' (from alpine) is awesome :)
16:07:51 <nielsm> awesome! I have the game playing music from a wav file mixed through mixer.cpp with the rest
16:07:59 <nielsm> (that part's been done before I know)
16:10:40 <nielsm> the goal is to have fluidsynth play through the game mixer, and maybe also add in the opl2/3 emulator from dosbox and support playing from ADLIB.CAT from ttd dos :)
16:10:51 <TrueBrain> I always forget that volume mounts in Docker don't work if you are working on another machine :D LALALALAAAAA :P
16:11:02 <TrueBrain> you are crazy nielsm :)
16:11:06 <TrueBrain> (which is a positive thing)
16:11:50 <nielsm> the hard part was writing (yet another) riff wave file parser
16:12:02 <frosch123> TrueBrain: assuming i would implement authentication delegation into eints/bananas, so translators/contentpeople can login with github, tt-forums if possible, ... would there still be a reason to allow them to login with the existing openttd account?
16:12:20 <TrueBrain> I would really like to deprecated our own SSO
16:12:41 <TrueBrain> but ... we might want to create a grace period of some sorts
16:12:57 <frosch123> i wonder about stuff like wiki
16:13:21 <frosch123> i can hack eints and bananas, but can i hack wiki? :p
16:13:34 <TrueBrain> yes; and it can also just support oauth :)
16:13:45 <TrueBrain> but .. I guess we can slap an oauth on the OpenTTD LDAP
16:13:54 <TrueBrain> which means nobody has to change; but they can
16:14:11 <TrueBrain> for wiki it is also a bit more of anissue, with usernames etc
16:14:25 <TrueBrain> ideal you let people link their OpenTTD account to another OAuth
16:14:30 <TrueBrain> so their username is maintained
16:14:39 <TrueBrain> same goes for BaNaNaS, I guess
16:15:07 <frosch123> i kind of want to implement a small authorisation server, which manages user permissions for translators etc... kind of the current ldap roles, but without the authentication stuff
16:15:16 <TrueBrain> so I am afraid we will be forced to preseed BaNaNaS with OpenTTD LDAP :(
16:15:51 <TrueBrain> local applications should always do authorization ofc
16:16:07 <TrueBrain> not sure it needs to be a server, or part of the application
16:16:10 <TrueBrain> but that is up to you ofc :)
16:16:35 <TrueBrain> but yeah, I am with you on the: lets move away from our own LDAP :)
16:16:44 <TrueBrain> I would really like all parts of OpenTTD to be "on their own"
16:16:53 <TrueBrain> easier in development etc etc
16:17:27 <nielsm> not making a PR for this, just yet :P
16:38:41 <TrueBrain> meh, I have to learn to a bit too much about how Ruby does packaging for my taste :P
16:40:57 <andythenorth> apache and a python script :P
16:41:04 <andythenorth> red neck solution
16:41:28 <TrueBrain> ah, finally have it running via both local 'serve' as Docker
16:41:37 <TrueBrain> if I can now forget everything I learned, I am fine
16:48:13 <TrueBrain> okay .. so next step is to clean up the files, and push that to github ..
16:50:37 <nielsm> okay I think I have fluidsynth playing through the mixer now
16:53:34 <nielsm> birds are weird, I think their sound output is linked to level of brain activity, whenever a stimulus arrives sound is produced
17:05:02 <frosch123> mostly mammals here
17:13:12 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #6958: Fix #6864: Normalise colour use in Frame rate window https://git.io/fxhpw
17:50:36 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #6927: Change: Forbid dock placement on docking area https://git.io/fxhj3
18:18:29 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2148
18:18:38 <andythenorth> is Wolf01 a mammal?
18:20:44 <frosch123> werewolves count as mammals
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19:21:38 <andythenorth> nielsm: seen the comments on ship stuff?
19:21:43 <andythenorth> I'm inclined to agree
19:24:55 <nielsm> right, it does seem many of them are mostly trying to prevent AIs from shooting themselves too close to the ankle and lose the entire foot
19:26:32 <andythenorth> samu runs long games watching AIs
19:26:45 <andythenorth> and then proposes trunk patches to fix isolated cases he's seen
19:26:59 <andythenorth> there is probably some metaphor about boiling the ocean or something
19:34:35 <frosch123> why do 99 people watch openttd on gh?
19:35:06 <frosch123> why get notified about all conversations when not participating in any of them?
19:35:42 <TrueBrain> because they like the spam?
19:35:52 <frosch123> are these the same people as in this channel?
19:37:22 <TrueBrain> oeh, more than 1000 stars \o/
19:37:38 <TrueBrain> I didnt even gave it a star :o
19:38:08 <frosch123> yes, we surpassed openttd-deprecated pretty quick
19:38:26 <TrueBrain> I like how the last commit is from the 26th of July :P
19:39:39 <frosch123> well, some of the forks are from bots which fork everything, possibly trying to consume gh resources
19:40:46 <nielsm> I think some also fork projects to get them appear on their profile
19:40:49 <nielsm> as if they were working on it
19:41:13 <frosch123> yes, but when people have >1000 repositories, i consider them bots :)
19:41:16 <andythenorth> one day software will eat all the world
19:41:30 <andythenorth> also, how many bags of mail in an 8/8 mail wagon?
19:41:35 <andythenorth> default game is 30-37
19:41:41 <andythenorth> depending on type
19:42:26 <frosch123> take an educational approach, make all capacities prime numbers
19:43:08 <frosch123> i am sure some people get annoyed if you set capacity to 31
19:43:39 <andythenorth> is that an autobot?
19:45:27 <frosch123> even more scary are the people following me
19:56:08 <frosch123> someone wrote a bot to reply to every pr that prs are not used
19:57:51 <TrueBrain> but not even closed
20:01:04 <TrueBrain> so much trolling in those PRs
20:01:36 <frosch123> no code of conduct :)
20:01:46 <TrueBrain> so many PRs to revert the CoC :P
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20:05:30 <frosch123> i really wonder about the idea behind that bot
20:05:54 <frosch123> did people not know you can disable pr creation, or is that a newer gh feature which did not exist in the past?
20:06:17 <frosch123> as it is now, it ridicules everyone opening one
20:07:00 <TrueBrain> I also think if you close PRs, people get even more confuse
20:07:25 <TrueBrain> (as in, disable PRs)
20:08:38 <TrueBrain> why SONOS, every time I want to use the app, you are FORCING Me to update before I can play music ... sometimes I simply dont have time to do the update first .. ugh ..
20:10:59 <andythenorth> but imagine the infosec compliance
20:11:03 <andythenorth> forcibly closed vulns
20:18:09 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> is Wolf01 a mammal? <- what made you think I might be a mammal?
20:21:00 <Wolf01> I might be a reptilian or an astral being
20:21:41 <frosch123> it's fine as long as you are no bird
20:24:26 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I need to exercise a bit, but to do what I want I need a bench...
20:25:32 <Wolf01> I just purchased the weights :(
20:26:05 <Wolf01> But I need the bench for one specific exercise
20:26:30 <Wolf01> All the others are free body
20:33:28 <Wolf01> Mmmh, the bed seem to be high enough, but a bit too soft
20:41:05 <Wolf01> Wow, it works, the pain faded away with 2 series O_O
20:51:26 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6903: selected rail type should be included in game saves https://git.io/fxjLq
20:52:45 <andythenorth> that's just 'save UI stuff' coming up again
20:52:49 <andythenorth> which we don't do
20:52:56 <andythenorth> window positions are same problem
20:53:44 <nielsm> have a client-side cache of last used railtype per save file and per server address, keep the last 10 or so of each of singleplayer and multiplayer
20:53:53 <nielsm> but not storing it in the save file
20:54:13 <andythenorth> yes it's client state
20:54:34 <andythenorth> photoshop doesn't rearrange itself when I open a .psd
20:54:44 <nielsm> you should write that on the ticket :)
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20:55:22 <andythenorth> it should just be one persistent UI state, but it's probably too big for openttd.cfg?
20:55:32 <andythenorth> that's where we keep other stuff like newgrf list
20:55:50 <frosch123> currently you can store stuff globally and per company
20:56:21 <frosch123> per client makes singleplayer/multiplayer/reloading pretty undefined
21:00:49 <nielsm> but is it worth trying to fix?
21:01:36 <frosch123> you need the crash.sav
21:01:53 <frosch123> then you know which rv disconnected where
21:02:11 <frosch123> as it is now, noone knows what is happening since it is not reproducible
21:33:36 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6865: Drawing vertical/horizontal lines of width>1 problem https://git.io/fxjqW
22:18:09 <andythenorth> I dont' want to be an asshole
22:18:14 <andythenorth> but isn't that a blog post?
22:19:33 <Wolf01> I thought you ragequit the forum :P
22:21:37 <andythenorth> because ragequit was 1 step away
22:21:42 <andythenorth> in a kind of dumb way
22:27:03 <nielsm> oh well, back to work tomorrow
22:27:49 <LordAro> and he was never seen again
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