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12:43:34  <Wolf01> Moin

12:50:54  <Samu> i found a weird bug

12:51:19  <Samu> AIAirport.GetNearestTown(tile, airport_type);

12:51:32  <Samu> AITile.GetClosestTown(tile);

12:51:51  <Samu> i don't get the same town

12:52:02  <Samu> even with the same tile

12:52:18  <Samu> must explore this

12:53:48  <Samu> maybe it's not a bug, or i'm failing to understand the difference

12:55:18  <Wolf01> Maybe one is intended to get the nearest town as destination while the other is intended to get the nearest town given a tile?

12:58:11  <Samu> the town of AIAirport.GetNearestTown is really far off than the other function

12:59:40  <Samu> https://imgur.com/Fi6IPIj

13:00:39  <Samu> the tile is where "Flarnwell Heights" sign is located, the nearest town for the first function is Pletston, the nearest town for the second one is Flarnwell

13:00:52  <Samu> why

13:03:23  <Wolf01> Do the functions have a comment explaining what they return or you just guess by the name?

13:04:02  <Samu> https://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/classAIAirport.html#d8ac12ccd9de4b8340d37ea68428a8f3

13:04:07  <Samu> doesn't seem to be clear

13:09:51  <Wolf01> The flarnwell airport should return flarnwell, as it's under that local authority, I don't understand why it should need the airport type btw, on a tile you can have only one airport and only one local authority

13:11:23  <Samu> it treats it as an area of tiles

13:11:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you do know that the local authority of a station may be different than the local authority of the tile that the station (sign) is on?

13:12:45  <Wolf01> Yes, but in that case it's on the other side of the town, I don't think pletston local authority reaches that far, at least if he didn't station walk with that airport

13:12:47  <Samu> local authority of that tile is Flanrwell, just checked

13:13:11  <Samu> no, i didn't station walk

13:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm assuming AIAirport.GetNearestTown is the one that limits the noise

13:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause> so it's not only the distance but also the town size

13:17:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and it needs the airport type because it needs the size of the (potential) airport you're trying to build

13:19:02  <Wolf01> That makes sense

13:20:24  <Samu> but still, why did it get a town that is so far away than that place?

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13:48:28  <Wolf01> o/

13:50:26  <andythenorth> so

13:50:35  <andythenorth> I need to rek FIRS

13:50:46  <andythenorth> but I only have a phone

13:51:02  <andythenorth> no hg client, no text editor :p

13:51:07  <Wolf01> WTF, can't you just let it live a bit? :D

13:51:18  <andythenorth> and can’t edit directly in devzome

13:54:50  <LordAro> lol

13:55:24  <andythenorth> switch to github :p

13:56:43  <nielsm> andythenorth, reasons why you should bring a real computer even when going on vacation

13:56:51  <andythenorth> oof

13:57:05  <andythenorth> then I’d just play tanks and be angry :(

13:57:07  <andythenorth> :)

13:57:22  <nielsm> don't need to bring something that can play 3D games :P

13:58:05  <andythenorth> unrelatec: industrial chemistry continues to mess with my brain

13:58:13  <andythenorth> it’s complex eh

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13:59:55  <andythenorth> p-aminophenol stops your brain hurting, for example

14:00:23  <andythenorth> and comes from coke ovens, indirectly

14:01:00  <andythenorth> whereas sulfuric acid is a waste product from coke ovens, but also a saleable by product

14:01:15  <andythenorth> and is also used to recover other by products

14:01:23  <andythenorth> such complex :p

14:02:23  <andythenorth> also most of my information is from wikipedia, and have you ever met a WP contributor? o_O

14:03:40  <andythenorth> nielsm so do you think 16 cargos is going to make it? :) FIRS 4 design starts to depend on it :)

14:04:06  <nielsm> I think it just depends on being tested working?

14:05:33  <nielsm> it's the callback stuff I'm unsure about working or not because I don't understand the mechanisms involved in the GRF execution engine, so I can't make any test cases myself

14:06:21  <andythenorth> yeah I need to patch FIRS internals for that, assumes 2 cargos

14:06:31  <andythenorth> no loops over n cargos

14:07:34  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, steam beta comes now with integrated wine?

14:07:42  <peter1138> Sounds like it.

14:07:49  <andythenorth> and the storage increase PR in openttd is blocked by newgrf revision problem

14:11:08  <LordAro> i wonder if steam's bundled libraries are still from ubuntu 12.04

14:11:27  <LordAro> (and how out of date their bundled version of wine will get)

14:11:35  <andythenorth> so I’m renaming Extreme

14:11:45  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, but i think it always tried to use system libraries first by default

14:11:47  <andythenorth> Better Living Through Chemistry

14:12:01  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: definitely didn't used to, it caused issues on arch#

14:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i think for a time i had the reverse problem, i had to set an environment option to not use system but bundled libraries

14:13:40  <Eddi|zuHause> now next question, how do i copy the savegames over from my wine steam installation to the normal steam...

14:13:59  <LordAro> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Steam/Troubleshooting#Steam_runtime

14:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i used steam cloud

14:14:13  <LordAro> locate on disk -> copy?

14:14:37  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: there was a STEAM_PREFER_HOST_LIBRARIES or something

14:14:42  <andythenorth> or...The Chemical Life

14:14:52  <andythenorth> dunno which I prefer yet

14:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> My Chemical Romance (i hear that is a totally up to date reference for the youth of today)

14:17:04  <LordAro> haha

14:17:19  <Eddi|zuHause> (if "today" means "ten years ago")

14:17:21  <andythenorth> considered that one too

14:19:28  <andythenorth> it’s chemical products oriented :)

14:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Chemistry is Love, Chemistry is Life

14:20:14  <Eddi|zuHause> :p

14:20:15  <andythenorth> dunno whether to split ‘petrochemicals’ up, it’s easier as a single cargo

14:20:37  <andythenorth> it’s usefully non-specific

14:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause> (almost definitely don't use that)

14:21:17  <andythenorth> eddi I can add that one to the list :)

14:21:27  <Eddi|zuHause> really, don't :p

14:22:07  <andythenorth> :)

14:25:12  <andythenorth> hmm, how to handle changes in industrial process?

14:25:45  <andythenorth> e.g. phenol historically sourced from coal tar, then switched to distillation from crude oil

14:26:03  <andythenorth> I guess this economy is post 1950 or so

14:26:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so, they do have a dropdown which allows to select which "compatibility tool" to use, might be helpful if they allowed to set a custom wine version to use there, instead of theirs

14:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so, at least the game starts out-of-the-box (spent a lot of time getting it to run under normal wine)

14:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause> still haven't found the savegame data

14:31:04  <andythenorth> how many outputs is too many for an industry?

14:31:12  <Eddi|zuHause> 64

14:31:34  <andythenorth> bearing in mind (1) the fractional cargo production from inputs

14:31:48  <andythenorth> (2) the need for pickup stations

14:33:54  <Eddi|zuHause> stations can be 64x64

14:34:18  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno about the fractions

14:35:58  <andythenorth> can’t remember how wasteful the integer maths is

14:36:06  <andythenorth> “probably fine”

14:38:20  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the easiest way to find out the appid of a game?

14:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, shop page

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14:40:48  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, it doesn't seem to be in the steam userdata section

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14:43:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, found it... now next where to put it so it finds it...

14:44:37  <planetmaker> <andythenorth> and the storage increase PR in openttd is blocked by newgrf revision problem <--- not sure those two problems should be linked

14:45:11  <andythenorth> PR notes suggest they are, but I’m not sure

14:45:22  <planetmaker> I'm actually tempted to just approve the PR and be done with that feature. Yet the ability of NewGRFs to query OpenTTD's capabilities or revision... should still be there

14:45:27  <planetmaker> or rather re-introduced

14:45:34  <planetmaker> as should be nightly builds :D

14:45:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it's definitely a problem that needs to be solved

14:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't see the dependency

14:46:24  <planetmaker> there is a weak one: a NewGRF using the 17+ persistant storages needs to know whether they work or simply return 0 regardless

14:46:37  <planetmaker> Thus such NewGRFs need to know what OpenTTD they run on

14:46:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes

14:46:55  <andythenorth> but we think that’s a concern for the newgrf?

14:47:04  <andythenorth> not the storage?

14:47:40  <planetmaker> It's an OpenTTD concern as it offers no means for a NewGRF to get the required information (other than checking openttd major-minor-bugfix revision

14:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but it would allow making test newgrfs for now which ignore the detection, or put a more fuzzy ">=1.9.0" check in to work in current nightly and in release, but not older nightlies in the last 4 months

14:47:46  <planetmaker> which would likely be fine enough

14:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bad workaround

14:48:07  <planetmaker> yeah. But good enough for now

14:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's not critical

14:48:56  <andythenorth> seems we could approve it and tidy the mess later?

14:49:05  <Samu> there must be a bug with my code somewhere

14:49:11  <andythenorth> or it dies of being debated to death? :)

14:49:12  <Samu> it doesn't seem to be openttd

14:49:15  <planetmaker> My suggestion for the reported revision is actually: make it a compile-time constant which needs updating when a critical NewGRF feature is introduced / changed / whatever

14:49:31  <andythenorth> API rev?

14:49:41  <planetmaker> it's yet another thing in need of maintenance. But well... it is anyway. It kinda is an API rev anyway.

14:50:03  <planetmaker> no need to invent something new there. Just continue to use the revision. But commit it directly instead of inferring it from the VCS

14:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> ok... so old save data is in "wineprefixes/steam/drive_c/users/johannes/Local Settings/Application Data/" and new data goes into "Steam/SteamApps/compatdata/<appid>/pfx/drive_c/users/steamuser/Local Settings/Application Data/"

14:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> now, do i make a copy or a symlink?

14:50:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker that seems very pragmatic

14:51:06  <andythenorth> maintaining revs is dull but hard to avoid

14:51:19  <planetmaker> it's not a big issue anyway

14:51:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it's effectively same as savegame rev

14:51:42  <planetmaker> it's just one additional line of codechange in newgrf-related code changes and additions

14:52:20  <planetmaker> yep, like savegame rev, or similar. The same constant could effectively be used. Maybe should for simplicity's sake

14:52:32  <planetmaker> though it would bump savegame rev dramatically :P

14:52:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but i suppose it's better than relying on commit history which is not guaranteed to be the same on everyone's computer

14:52:57  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if linking them is a good idea

14:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> plus i think savegame rev is limited to uint8 currently

14:53:49  <planetmaker> right. That can always be done later, too. So first: re-introduce reported revision for NewGRFs and increment it everytime it's needed

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14:54:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that seems like a useful approach

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14:58:45  <andythenorth> so ‘drugs’, ‘medicines’ or ‘pharmaceuticals’ cargo name?

14:58:57  <andythenorth> high value, like diamonds and such

14:59:53  <Eddi|zuHause> pharmathingies

14:59:57  <planetmaker> 'contraband'

15:00:58  <andythenorth> dunno if medicines is a wider set than drugs

15:01:07  * andythenorth researching

15:01:43  <andythenorth> pharma is a subset of drugs

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15:04:05  <planetmaker> medical products is wider. Pharamaceutical usually is chemicals while prothetics, implants etc not, but still medical. But maybe that's me and I'm not native speaker

15:06:59  <Eddi|zuHause> "drugs" (as in "drugstore") would include shampoo, soap, deodorant and stuff

15:07:46  <planetmaker> funnily drug and Droge derive from the word 'dröge', or in English dry ;)

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15:08:36  <andythenorth> drugs also includes illegal drugs

15:10:11  <andythenorth> so probably ‘pharmaceuticals’

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15:17:11  <Samu> Guys, I found the problem!

15:17:18  <Samu> it's in my code

15:17:22  <Samu> it's not openttd

15:18:02  <Samu> or actually, in ludiai's code

15:18:16  <Samu> this part didn't belong to me

15:18:27  <Samu> sorry about false alarm Eddi|zuHause , Wolf01

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15:29:10  <Samu> just sorted it out

15:29:11  <Samu> yays

15:29:27  <Samu> it was due to the adjacent station code

15:30:24  <Samu> it was trying to join an airport with another

15:30:39  <Samu> now it no longer tries to join  airports

15:31:55  <Samu> and the nearest town of a hypotetically joined airport was closer to Pletston

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15:43:37  <andythenorth> so inputs for pharma factory?

15:43:44  <andythenorth> besides coal tar?

15:44:08  <planetmaker> some agriculture stuff or plants

15:44:39  <planetmaker> or some sort of chemicals

15:44:40  <andythenorth> opium poppies?

15:44:46  <planetmaker> yep :D

15:44:46  <andythenorth> bacteria?

15:49:48  * andythenorth lost in BASF pharma website :p

15:50:51  <andythenorth> “aroma ingredients market”

15:53:32  <andythenorth> seems I need to know what amines are

15:54:41  <Eddi|zuHause> parts of aminoacids?

15:57:45  <andythenorth> seems so

16:00:26  <andythenorth> dunno if there’s a separate industry for pharma

16:00:52  <andythenorth> already got a multi-purpose “specialty chemicals factory”

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16:58:46  <Wolf01> https://linux.slashdot.org/story/18/08/22/0012254/steam-gets-built-in-tools-to-let-you-run-windows-games-on-linux----now-available-in-beta <- Eddi|zuHause, trying this?

16:58:53  <Eddi|zuHause> yes

16:59:10  <Eddi|zuHause> got one game to work so far, another just crashed

16:59:27  <Wolf01> Nice

16:59:29  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how to tweak it to get it working

17:03:17  <peter1138> Step 1) Install Windows.

17:03:19  <nielsm> is it based on wine?

17:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes

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17:06:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, the game that crashed also crashes in my normal wine

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17:06:49  <Eddi|zuHause> probably graphics driver related

17:07:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (it used to run a few years ago)

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17:47:02  <andythenorth> well

17:50:31  <andythenorth> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_classification_of_chemicals

17:50:48  <andythenorth> i could do 3 cargos for chemicals :p

17:53:39  <andythenorth> also carbon black is due a revival

17:53:48  <andythenorth> I removed it from Steeltown

17:56:29  <andythenorth> can I treat natural rubber and synthetic rubber same?

18:04:34  <andythenorth> so much and very questions

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18:10:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes

18:10:47  <andythenorth> hmm, is rubber a polymer?

18:10:56  <andythenorth> currently I have a polymers cargo

18:12:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i probably wouldn't merge those

18:12:23  <andythenorth> polymers could equally well be plastics, but polymers seems to fit better than plastics for the textile chain

18:12:34  <andythenorth> plastic clothes is weird

18:12:47  <andythenorth> polymer clothes seems fine

18:13:25  <Eddi|zuHause> synthetic fibres?

18:13:42  <andythenorth> maybe yes

18:16:15  <andythenorth> so I don’t know whether to add a coal tar distiller

18:16:24  <andythenorth> it would look quite good

18:16:33  <andythenorth> but overlaps with other things

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18:18:29  <andythenorth> hmm

18:18:57  <andythenorth> it’s a unique source of creosote

18:19:20  <andythenorth> 5 other cargos could be produced at other industries

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18:43:38  <Samu> how do I get the noise of an airport type, before testing it on a tile?

18:46:23  <Samu> https://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/classAIAirport.html

18:46:44  <Samu> GetNoiseLevelIncrease (TileIndex tile, AirportType type) requires a tile, what if I don't have a tile

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18:53:16  <andythenorth> is “bicycles” a valid cargo? o_O

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18:58:39  <Eddi|zuHause> probably a tiny bit too specific

18:59:14  <andythenorth> personal transport? :p

19:00:41  <andythenorth> so to what extent is cement production “chemistry”?

19:01:51  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme

19:02:08  <andythenorth> my planned changes make the chemical chain even denser

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19:02:23  <andythenorth> I think I leave food/farms as is

19:02:40  <andythenorth> but building materials chain doesn’t seem to fit

19:02:49  <andythenorth> needs more or less detail

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19:03:48  <andythenorth> I’m

19:04:25  <andythenorth> at 53 cargos now. 48 would be preferable, but could alternativel add even more

19:05:26  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, another game that crashes in a similar way... i probably need to diagnose this better

19:07:33  <andythenorth> maybe I don’t need bricks

19:07:56  <Eddi|zuHause> back to BDMT?

19:09:07  <andythenorth> currently is BDMT

19:09:22  <andythenorth> removing brickworks just simplifies grf

19:09:29  <andythenorth> graph *

19:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause> grfgraph

19:09:52  <andythenorth> indeed

19:10:16  <andythenorth> and removes a consumer of coal, which is over-demanded

19:10:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so far, 1/4 games worked... i somehow hoped for a better ratio

19:11:57  <andythenorth> if it’s Better Living Through Chemistry, what nice cargos have I over-looked? o_O

19:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause> tbh, i don't have a good overview of what you actually have :p

19:14:21  <andythenorth> I can’t update the docs currently :)

19:15:00  <andythenorth> they miss 5 cargos: coal tar, creosote, carbon black, rubber, pharmaceuticals

19:15:06  <andythenorth> and maybe asphalt

19:18:20  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme

19:20:14  <Samu> Wormnest: hi

19:20:36  <Samu> do you know?

19:23:51  <andythenorth> I have lumped all the intermediate petrochemicals together

19:24:00  <andythenorth> irl they’re too complex

19:24:23  <andythenorth> ethane, methane, benzene, naptha, ethylene etc

19:25:12  <andythenorth> I’ve also left out hydrogen because it tends to be pipeline transported

19:26:38  <andythenorth> nitrogen is missing, and could come from a cryo plant

19:26:50  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could still think about splitting polymers into plastic and (synthesic) fibres

19:27:47  <andythenorth> https://www.dummies.com/education/science/chemistry/the-top-10-industrial-chemicals/

19:28:01  <andythenorth> I could split polymers yes

19:29:24  <Eddi|zuHause> food additives?

19:30:09  <Eddi|zuHause> (citric acid, synthetic aroma, sugar replacements, ...)

19:30:50  <andythenorth> yes, they’re in

19:31:20  <andythenorth> and industrial finishes (paint, varnish, coatings etc)

19:31:35  <andythenorth> cleaning agents is detergents and similar

19:31:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah

19:32:16  <Wormnest> Samu: If you know where you want to place an airport you should have a tile

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19:32:37  <andythenorth> I think I’m at a “edit down” phase next, stripping anything that doesn’t fit here

19:32:40  <Eddi|zuHause> activated charcoal (for air quality scrubbers/mining supplies)?

19:32:50  <Samu> i have the tile, but i was trying to speed up things

19:33:00  <Samu> wanted to get it from the airport type itself

19:33:05  <andythenorth> charcoal is interesting

19:33:13  <andythenorth> also used pharmaceuticallt

19:33:21  <Samu> i would then exclude some towns from tilechecking

19:33:38  <andythenorth> how is activates charcoal produced?

19:33:47  <andythenorth> off phone spelling :p

19:35:31  <andythenorth> also there are no pesticides, defoliants or similar

19:35:56  <andythenorth> nor any lubricating oils or similar

19:36:02  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, "PROTON_USE_WINED3D11=1" and "PROTON_NO_D3D11=1" sound like variables i should try to tweak

19:37:22  <andythenorth> the metals chain is very limited also

19:37:37  <andythenorth> no lead, nickel etc

19:37:47  <Eddi|zuHause> zinc

19:38:04  <andythenorth> possibly yes

19:38:31  <andythenorth> I guess it’s not Better Living Through Mettalurgy

19:38:45  <andythenorth> I could make Steeltown bigger, but eh

19:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> awesome, now the game starts, but i have a completely pink screen :p

19:41:10  <Eddi|zuHause> turns out looking at a bright pink screen is not healthy :p

19:41:41  <andythenorth> :p

19:43:27  <andythenorth> kind of wonder

19:43:47  <andythenorth> if Bob The Builder is a valid economy

19:44:01  <andythenorth> splitting up BDMT

19:46:15  <Eddi|zuHause> probably, but not this economy :p

19:46:55  <andythenorth> I think it’s an urban economy

19:47:30  <andythenorth> deliver many things to towns, many end cargos, but less detail in the commodity input cargos

19:47:52  <Eddi|zuHause> oh it runs!

19:47:57  <Eddi|zuHause> with PROTON_USE_WINED3D11=1

19:50:01  <andythenorth> so should I sack Power Station from chemical economy?

19:50:24  <andythenorth> it’s just a coal eater

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20:06:00  <Samu> Wormnest: do you care to take a look at my code?

20:06:15  <Samu> need ideas to speed up the search

20:07:07  <Samu> when there aren't many airport types available, it's quite fast

20:07:20  <andythenorth> oof

20:07:21  <Samu> if all 9 are available, it becomes too slow

20:07:22  <Wormnest> Sorry Samu I have to many other things I need to do currently

20:07:28  <Samu> oh :( ok

20:07:31  <Samu> sorry

20:07:39  <andythenorth> players won’t like the loss of Extreme eh?

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20:20:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: either remove it, or add some side products

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20:22:08  <andythenorth> fly ash

20:22:24  <andythenorth> but that’s BDMT oriented

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20:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, game got stuck in a scene change...

20:23:22  <andythenorth> I never liked Extreme anyway

20:23:44  <andythenorth> probs someone will fork it

20:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause> power plants need some game mechanic, like boosting town growth or nearby industries or something

20:24:38  <andythenorth> yes

20:25:29  <andythenorth> is carbon black just an industrial finish?

20:26:55  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno

20:28:00  <andythenorth> I think in tyres it’s a structural component

20:28:00  <andythenorth> whereas finishes are decorative or protective

20:28:01  <andythenorth> it conflates a bit when used as ink

20:28:13  <andythenorth> finishes includes dyes and inks

20:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> varnish

20:31:39  <andythenorth> that too

20:32:15  <andythenorth> can probably lose coffee, sugar, flour now

20:32:35  <andythenorth> quicklime is notably missing though

20:33:12  <andythenorth> and I should research pesticides and poisons

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20:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, the game literally just said "Better living through chemistry" :p

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21:30:01  <Samu> what does the Clear() do in this situation?

21:30:02  <Samu> townManager.m_usedCities.Clear();

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21:31:15  <andythenorth> eh pesticides are hard to include

21:31:50  <andythenorth> they are either elemental (sulphur) or complex organic chemicals

21:32:23  <andythenorth> they would likely just be FMSP also

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21:57:50  <Wolf01> 'night

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22:08:11  <andythenorth> nitrogen isn’t transported much

22:08:24  <andythenorth> easier to produce on site in a cryo plant

22:09:25  <andythenorth> quicklime is mostly used in steel production, and steel mill can accept limestone

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22:21:10  <glx> Samu: without checking the doc, I can guess it removes all elements from the array

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23:57:37  <Samu> glx: i figured it out

23:58:04  <Samu> btw, I get a DIRECT_MUSIC thing warning when compiling

23:58:11  <Samu> are you aware?

23:58:39  <Samu> brb getting the exact message

continue to next day ⏵