IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-08-20
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00:10:24 *** Yuri is now known as AngstyYuri
00:11:15 <AngstyYuri> Bizarre issue on OpenTTD downloads for 32bit -_-
00:11:34 <AngstyYuri> DL gets stuck at "128kb out of ??? kb" until paused and resumed
00:14:56 * AngstyYuri is an irritable, straight Russian male with severe alcohol intolerance
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09:44:45 <Samu> what does rawin and rawget do?
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11:57:48 <Samu> this.distance_of_route.rawset(vehicle, AIMap.DistanceManhattan(tile_1, tile_2));
11:58:18 <Samu> and then somewhere else in the code
11:58:19 <Samu> local dist = this.distance_of_route.rawget(v);
11:59:23 <Samu> does that mean dist will be executing AIMap.DistanceManhattan(tile_1, tile_2)
11:59:34 <Samu> or does it get the value that was previously stored?
12:16:49 <Samu> "without employing delegation" - what does this mean?
12:21:14 <Samu> local dist = this.distance_of_route.rawget(v);
12:21:47 <Samu> local real_dist = AIMap.DistanceManhattan(order1_location, order2_location);
12:21:56 <Samu> assert(real_dist == dist);
12:22:41 <Samu> i fail to understand what rawget and rawset is doing
12:22:42 <peter1138> I'd guess that real_dist and dist are not equal.
12:22:59 <Samu> they've been always equal
12:23:21 <Samu> sometimes it doesn't make sense that they're equal
13:41:52 <Samu> ok, i'm about to finish these fixes
13:42:05 <Samu> the road component became a bit worse, for some reason :(
13:42:15 <Samu> but the air component became better
13:43:04 <Samu> i changed the way it evaluates towns for deploying bus or mail services
13:43:29 <Samu> instead of looking at town population, it looks at passenger or mail production
13:43:55 <Samu> apparently, this makes it do worse :(
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15:15:38 <Borg> I have weird PF issue again
15:16:06 <LordAro> was it ever proved to be a PF issue, rather than a signalling issue?
15:17:14 <Borg> it is PF... it preffers path, that imo should be used as last resort
15:18:16 <Borg> weird to me.. but adding one way block signals fixed it
15:18:29 <LordAro> no, i want to continue to guess wildly
15:19:49 <Samu> borg, are you creating an ai'
15:20:09 <Borg> Samu: no, just playing game
15:21:05 <Borg> when I remove those 2 block signals on main path, trains somehow prefer to go via depot.. but it should be used only for train maintenance (goto depot on maint)
15:21:40 <Borg> adding them, fixed problem...
15:22:17 <Borg> not sure way tho.. since green lights does not count as negative penalty.
15:22:41 <LordAro> that'll probably be it
15:22:49 <LordAro> it gets them closer to the station
15:23:24 <Borg> well.. but there is no direct route.. they need to go thro depot
15:23:30 <Borg> and depot should be penalized?
15:23:40 <LordAro> depots are penalised, iirc
15:23:47 <Borg> yeah.. there is YAPF setting
15:23:57 <Borg> so.. wth there still goes via that route..
15:24:12 <Borg> yapf.rail_depot_reverse_penalty = 5000
15:24:18 <LordAro> but seriously, YAPF has been part of the game for over a decade with no significant issues - you've got signalling issues, not PF bugs
15:24:55 <Borg> yapf.maximum_go_to_depot_penalty = 2000
15:25:09 <Borg> LordAro: can u explain me then where the issue is in?
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15:28:08 <eirc> they have orders for that station?
15:28:39 <Borg> 1) goto that station (full load any)
15:28:45 <Borg> 2) goto to other station
15:28:51 <Borg> 3) goto to depot (maintenance)
15:29:05 <eirc> there's a way out of the station on the other side?
15:29:16 <eirc> towards the other station?
15:29:25 <Borg> let me do bigger screenshot
15:31:18 <Borg> so.. this is illogical to me.. except when depot penalty is not calculated..
15:32:20 <eirc> there are trains waiting on the signals in front?
15:32:33 <eirc> when the train makes the wrong decision
15:32:54 <eirc> if those are occupied then all that's left is the depot
15:32:59 <Borg> then the train makes wrong decision.. one track is occupied at station.. left one
15:33:31 <Borg> depot penalty is so big. it should not be choosed.. they should go straight.. as it happen when those block signals are there
15:33:45 <Borg> definitly.. something fishy is happening
15:33:55 <Borg> let me remove block signals.. and observe
15:34:26 <Borg> tada.. and he goes to the depot.. WHY WHYYYYYYYY
15:34:45 <eirc> there's no train waiting in the bays in front right?
15:35:01 <eirc> or just exiting maybe a part of it is blocking
15:35:56 <Borg> exit is never blocked. for now
15:37:02 <Borg> I will post extra screenshot
15:37:06 <eirc> if you have a train exiting but not full exited it's still blocking
15:37:15 <Borg> how it should work.. but w/o that extra signals
15:39:06 <Borg> anyway.. this is how it should work....
15:39:36 <Borg> when those 2 block signals are there.. trains basicaly will always choose right patch. and even when its totaly blocked.. they will just wait on that PBS..
15:39:45 <Borg> unless.. train needs maintenance.. it will go to depot
15:40:00 <eirc> in this last screenshot if you didnt have the extra signals both bays would be full
15:40:01 <Borg> now, if anyone can explain me.. why this dont happen when I remove those 2 block signals
15:40:18 <eirc> so train would only have the depot available
15:40:21 <Borg> eirc: I can bring more trains there.. everything will work still
15:40:27 <Borg> wait.. I will post 3th screenshot
15:40:37 <eirc> if you stop two trains behind those two
15:40:44 <eirc> and bring a 5th it will go to depot
15:40:58 <eirc> unless you make even more waiting bays
15:41:05 <Borg> I guess probably he will not
15:41:33 <Borg> NOPE.. he didnt go to depot :D as expected
15:42:02 <eirc> try removing ALL trains from the waiting bays
15:42:45 <Borg> when all bays at station and waiting tracks are clear.. train will go ok
15:42:57 <Borg> but as FAR as left station bay is occupied.. he goes via depot :/
15:43:32 <Borg> eirc: last screenshot.. train waiting there is AS expected.. because cost to depot is way too high..
15:43:38 <Borg> he should wait at PBS and bleed ;)
15:43:49 <Borg> now.. why this happens only. when I have those damn 2 block signals at waiting tracks
15:43:56 <Borg> once I remove them.. everything collapses ;/
15:45:58 <Borg> eirc: got 1.7.2 by chance? I can spawn server
15:45:58 <eirc> the depot seems to only be connected to the right station platform
15:46:08 <Borg> this will be 10000 times easier to observe and debug
15:46:15 <eirc> try connecting it to the left one too
15:46:41 <Borg> eirc: hmm but I want it that way.. train from depot should not be on priority too much
15:47:02 <Borg> but lets see what it will change
15:48:17 <Borg> when I only removed last block signal... those bastards started to go via depot
15:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: did you change the penalties from the ingame console, or in the config file?
15:49:03 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: yes, I have them slighty adjusted. true
15:49:27 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p0 = 500
15:49:27 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p1 = -100
15:49:28 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p2 = 0
15:49:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: we need all of them
15:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: that lookahead does not work with path signal
15:49:53 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 5
15:50:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: the lookahead is meant to be a load balancing measure for block signals
15:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: with path signals, the balancing is achieved with the path reservation penalty
15:51:22 <Borg> hmm, okey, lets remove block signal close to depot
15:52:12 <Borg> okey.. that fixed problem indeed
15:52:21 <Borg> now everything works as expected..
15:52:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (note that the path reservation penalty is also applied with block signals, as every train will reserve the tiles it stands on)
15:53:05 <Borg> but now.. I can scale up depot entry :/
15:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: the penalties are hidden for a reason, because changing them will cause any number of weird side effects like this
15:54:04 <Borg> I think they arent that for now.. I just make curve a bit more aggresive.. you 100% sure that bringing them to default will fixe the issue?
15:54:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: you need to learn how the penalties are calculated, and how they are added up in each path
15:54:32 <Borg> and I hope I understand that...
15:54:47 <Borg> I dont get why depot penalty = 2000 still does not overweight the path
15:54:49 <LordAro> defaults haven't been changed in over a decade
15:54:53 <LordAro> no one else complains :p
15:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: you need to first be sure what you are actually trying to achieve
15:55:11 <Borg> LordAro: yeah, noone else means.. openttdcoop guys doing weird paths...
15:55:32 <LordAro> no, it really means no one else
15:55:39 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: okey, I want this: 2 main tracks should be used always... depot track should be used ONLY for maintenance trains
15:56:02 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: this works fine now.. when there is no block signals and no signals near depot..
15:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: still, we need ALL your penalties
15:56:32 <Borg> BUT.. when I want to scale up depot service path.. I will add extra tracks and block signals.. and this will collapse unless I add block signals on main track too
15:58:10 <Borg> so it seems I need to learn how to use block signals workarounds
15:58:26 <Borg> its ok.. I can pair block + pbs
16:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yapf.rail_firstred_exit_penalty = 0 <-- why?
16:00:49 <Borg> I dont remember.. its ooold config...
16:02:10 <Wolf01> We need a configurator for that stuff, I always broke things more than fixed every time I changed the values a bit
16:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> should be 10000 i think
16:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the lastred also
16:02:45 <Eddi|zuHause> lastred_exit i mean
16:02:49 <Borg> Wolf01: well, I adjusted it long time ago.. and it worked very well..
16:03:00 <Borg> but.. stuff seems got broken abit w/ PBS
16:03:05 <LordAro> Wolf01: "delete all pathfinder settings"
16:03:20 <Wolf01> That's what I did every time
16:03:23 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: okey, lets adjust that and see what happens
16:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, a really awfully long time ago i put my depot penalty at 50000
16:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: those two penalties probably don't affect your case
16:04:29 <Borg> lets wait for few trains tho
16:04:34 <Borg> first one already went to depot
16:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: you have a bunch of 0s around, that should never be done
16:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> put it at 100 to negate the effect
16:05:18 <Borg> why? its ok.. because cost+=
16:05:26 <Borg> no.. 100 does NOT negate the efect
16:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> 100 is one default tile
16:05:58 <Borg> but signal is not default tile
16:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yapf.rail_crossing_penalty = 0 <-- this means a road crossing has LESS penalty than a default tile
16:06:17 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: this settings work very well..
16:06:28 <Borg> I had balance issues when I had road crossing on one of paths
16:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's still not relevant to your case here, but it shows how careless you are with the settings
16:06:38 <Borg> and trains preffered the one w/o road corssing.. making jams
16:06:50 <Borg> please.. im not careless..
16:07:00 <Borg> Ive do extensive testings to understand the problem
16:07:21 <eirc> presignals would work too ;)
16:07:39 <Borg> I stopped using presignals.. once I learned how PBS cool is
16:07:46 <Borg> I only use PBS + block signals
16:08:03 <Borg> and 95% of time PBS works damn amazing (after some tuning)
16:08:13 <Borg> when it does NOT work.. I rtfs + test.. and it works
16:08:19 <Borg> this case is beyond my understand..
16:08:27 <Borg> depot penalty is high.. 2000
16:08:36 <Borg> path should not be chosed because even jammed track is cheaper
16:08:54 <Borg> and it works correct only when I have block signals before PBS on main track
16:09:21 <Borg> OpenTTD definitly lack of penalty signals..
16:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> your huge station incurs a high base penalty, which might throw off the pathfinder
16:09:36 <Borg> I wonder why its not there yet
16:09:48 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: even if.. its symmetrical for all tracks..
16:10:01 <Borg> and its not huge :) just 14 tiles.. max here
16:10:12 <Borg> but I like those 26 + 2 locos trains :D
16:10:30 <Borg> but not yet.. its too early.. waiting for SH'40'
16:11:02 <Borg> okey, so no real explaination?
16:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> next step would be to look at the actual calculated penalty
16:11:43 <Borg> yeah.. that would be neat
16:11:44 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how to access that
16:12:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be pathfinder debug values
16:12:55 <Borg> yeah, I tried it once.. so its best to build test track w/ few trains only
16:13:13 <Borg> because its hard to correlate output w/ particual train in particual moment
16:13:35 <Borg> BUT... at least now I have workaround.. that at least I partialy understand
16:13:54 <Borg> once there is at least one block signal on balance path, look ahead kicks in..
16:14:33 <Borg> now I have PBS + block signal right before PBS.. everything works smoothly
16:15:03 <Borg> addint more block signals on main track doesnt break anything too.. make traffic more smooth.. leaving maintenance track for depot route only
16:21:40 <eirc> btw you could also decouple the station and the depot so you don't have to do all that weirdness
16:22:31 <Borg> eirc: but its harder to manage..
16:22:44 <Borg> now I just clone train.. and let it go
16:23:04 <Borg> w/ that setup, I need to choose w/ depot to use? to balance them?
16:23:15 <eirc> you can have it some place before the station but not mixed with the entrances
16:23:36 <Borg> ahh.. yeah.. in middle..
16:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: you can set a waypoint, and trigger a "go to nearest depot" instead of "go to specific depot"
16:24:42 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: no no.. thats too risky
16:24:53 <Borg> I play using getto junctions
16:25:03 <Borg> I heavly reuse and rebuild tracks once game progresses..
16:25:18 <Borg> trains need to get exacly where they need..
16:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that relevant?
16:25:40 <Borg> well if trains will go to some depot no in his default path. I will get jams..
16:25:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you ensure you know where the trains are by sending them to the waypoint
16:26:11 <Borg> I didnt use waypoints from looong time.. YAPF does decent job at path finding
16:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the "go to nearest depot" will adhere to the maximum penalty, so it won't pick one across the map
16:26:19 <Borg> I just dont way trains go where they shouldnt go.. :)
16:26:32 <Borg> yeah.. but when u have centralized stations
16:26:41 <Borg> it could be triggered in baaad place
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16:26:56 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it will be triggered exactly at the waypoint
16:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you have the waypoint
16:27:55 <Borg> hmm Ill think about improvemnt.. for now at least.. there is workaround that makes me happy
16:28:01 <Borg> lets see how things will look at 2000+ year..
16:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause> 1: goto waypoint, 2: if need servicing, go to nearest depot, 3: goto station [...]
16:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you need to leave some small distance between the waypoint and the split, so the train doesn't reserve a path past the split before deciding to go to the depot
16:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> because then it cannot undo the reservation
16:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so it won't find the depot, as it would have to make a complete roundtrip
16:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and that is too far
16:30:27 <Borg> yeah. undo reservation ;P thats why im playing 1.7.2 now :)
16:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think reservation changed in 1.8.0
16:34:21 <Borg> there is bug.. when u stop train.. it doesnt cancel reservation
16:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say the cancelling is the bug
16:35:25 <Borg> why? when u stop train.. manual.. full stop
16:35:31 <Borg> it should damn cancel everything
16:36:10 <Borg> in 1.8.0 I couldnt send train to depot manually
16:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it would cause a random other train to start up if you cancel the reservation
16:36:13 <Borg> to take it off from track
16:36:30 <Borg> because I stopped him.. ordered to go to depot.. and he said he could not find the path
16:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause> try reversing the train to cancel the reservation
16:36:53 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: and it should go and start up.. its all fine
16:36:58 <Borg> we have signals to do protection
16:37:10 <Borg> I had that discuss here month ago..
16:37:16 <Borg> and ppl agreed its bug in 1.8.0
16:38:01 <Borg> watch the stopped train and path reservation..
16:38:23 <Borg> I rolled back to 1.7.2 because it pissed me off a lot
16:40:21 <Borg> but it might be same in 1.7.2
16:42:27 <Borg> okey.. its same in 1.7.2 too
16:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it might be annoying behaviour, but it's definitely not a bug
16:43:06 <Borg> okey, so stopped train should not cancel reservation maybe.. but once u click go to depot.. it should recalc maybe
16:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> because the feature works exactly as it was designed
16:43:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not a bug, that's a feature request
16:44:00 <Borg> so I can go back to 1.8.0 :)
16:44:12 <Borg> as I changed depot layouting.. seems im not affected that much :)
16:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, place the signal as close to the depot split as possible, and the situation should rarely come up
16:44:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and if it comes up, hit the reverse button
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17:03:51 <Samu> AITile::IsBuildableRectangle this function doesn't do what I think it does
17:04:58 <Samu> I need to look for another function
17:11:52 <Samu> I have a rectangle with the top tile coordinates 94, 94 and bottom tile coordinates 106, 106
17:13:11 <Samu> I want to expand it with the coverage area of 4 tiles of an airport of size 4, 3
17:16:03 <Samu> I want top coordinates to become 91, 92 and the bottom coordinates to stay the same 106, 106
17:16:52 <Samu> hmm how am I gonna do this
17:19:43 <Samu> if i place the airport sized 4x3 at tile 91, 92, the tile 94, 94 will contain the bottom tile of the airport
17:20:44 <Samu> if i place the airport sized 4x3 at tile 106,106, that tile is the top tile of the airport
17:21:00 <Samu> now how to account the coverage area into this
17:25:29 <Samu> tile 110,110 and tile 87, 88
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18:28:01 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: tnx for the highlight :)
18:28:35 <TrueBrain> seems to be a local issue, so unless I receive another ping, going to completely ignore it :D (but a ping is important; as 1 ping is noise, 2 pings is weird, 3 pings is an issue :P)
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19:01:01 <andythenorth_> phone irc is lame
19:01:10 <andythenorth_> won’t hold a connection
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19:14:19 <Andythenorthqwe> Quite unusable on phone :) Can’t see where I’m typing this :)
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19:19:12 <nielsm> reasons to bring a real computer if you're traveling and might want to go on irc
19:19:36 <Mutter> Different irc client :p
19:20:44 *** Mutter is now known as andythenorth
19:22:10 <andythenorth> So I am planning to rek FIRS more :)
19:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but, does it hold the connection? (i'm assuming the phone goes in some kind of suspend mode which drops connections)
19:22:43 <andythenorth> I think it’s iOS doing exactly that yes
19:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> other solution would be a "bouncer"
19:23:20 <andythenorth> But trying a new client is some sort of empirical test
19:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> means you'll still drop the connection, but the bouncer won't annoy us with your constant leaving and rejoining :p
19:23:55 <andythenorth> Yes there is that
19:24:12 <Eddi|zuHause> (it will also notify you of messages while you were absent)
19:24:18 <andythenorth> So I should drop Supplies from FIRS?
19:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> from all of FIRS?
19:24:33 <andythenorth> In favour of Realistic input cargos?
19:24:43 <andythenorth> Up to 16 of them
19:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say no, but you can diversify it in the more extreme economies
19:25:14 <andythenorth> Tractors -> farms
19:25:38 <nielsm> "this farm goes through fifty tractors a month, what the hell are they doing?!"
19:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> engines? tyres? harvesting blades?
19:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> electronic guidance systems?
19:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> gps map data updates?
19:28:05 <nielsm> how about animal feed, fertilizer, pesticides
19:28:17 <andythenorth> John Deere DMCA protected software modules
19:28:37 <andythenorth> My rationale might be bogus
19:28:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "Mutter" is a very difficult to google name for an irc client
19:28:51 <andythenorth> I just need something to design on holiday
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19:29:24 <nielsm> patented genetically modified seed
19:29:27 <andythenorth> OTOH FIRS got started because I was bored on holiday
19:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like the 6th entry for "mutter chat"
19:30:06 <Wolf01> andythenorth: did you receive the notification about wallyweb issues with catenary?
19:30:14 <Eddi|zuHause> all other google entries are completely unrelated
19:30:42 <Wolf01> I should make him come here to discuss that changes he needs
19:30:55 <andythenorth> Wolf no I missed that :)
19:31:18 <andythenorth> I have blanked NRT from my mind :)
19:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: rip out the current ridgid catenary drawing code, replace it with something closer to the elrail code, which places individual poles
19:32:11 <Wolf01> Blank tanks and restart brainstorming on what needs to be polished and finished in NRT :P
19:32:13 <andythenorth> Didn’t catenary already get split up?
19:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'd still say that is something completely separate from NRT
19:32:39 <andythenorth> Tanks is not here on my holiday btw
19:32:39 <Wolf01> Nah, there is the drawing glitch
19:33:23 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is the overlapping bounding boxes
19:33:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the game cannot resolve sprite order correctly, because the catenary bounding box is so huge
19:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem can probably be hidden by reducing the bounding box size
19:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but it'll probably resurface at some point in other places, if it's not completely redesigned
19:34:55 <andythenorth> Will that work when people want to abuse catenary?
19:35:19 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, it will resurface :p
19:35:21 <Wolf01> They are alreading abusing catenary
19:36:02 <andythenorth> Yes that’s what I mean :)
19:36:13 <andythenorth> Is it actually a problem?
19:36:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it's definitely a valid problem
19:36:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but i really gtg
19:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> like 10 minutes ago
19:37:57 <Wolf01> Also I think I'll get that ratt roads grf, it looks really valid and complete... but with only 15 roadtypes is limited... that mean I must vote yes for 64 roadtypes :P
19:41:13 <andythenorth> So is NRT broken or not? :)
19:41:24 <andythenorth> There was some newgrf cost bug?
19:41:37 <Wolf01> That was a wrong sign in the code
19:42:05 <Wolf01> Because it seem I'm not able to copypaste right
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20:09:53 <Mutter> I could leave FIRS alone
20:18:01 <Samu> woah, finding tiles are quick
20:18:28 <Samu> finding a suitable tile to place an airport
20:18:46 <Samu> it does not consider that many tiles
20:20:46 <frosch123> nicks are overrated
20:21:20 <Wolf01> I should change mine too, as I don't use this one anymore in other places
20:22:07 <frosch123> you can only do that when you bring another animal as replacement
20:23:28 <Wolf01> Too bad it is already used, and I don't want to append another "01" :P
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22:29:36 <andythenorth> maybe I rek Steeltown
22:29:50 <andythenorth> lots of fun reading to do for that
22:31:12 <andythenorth> is dolomite equivalent to limestone? o_O
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continue to next day ⏵
