IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-07-25
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00:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> usually because of your firewall/router configuration
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00:45:43 <alpha_one_x86> have you more info?
00:45:51 <DorpsGek> LordAro: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
00:47:44 <alpha_one_x86> I have change the default port
00:47:59 <alpha_one_x86> for server <-> client communication, checked with telnet for tcp
00:57:56 <alpha_one_x86> include with all open, not work
01:07:44 <LordAro> alpha_one_x86: it's also possible your ISP is blocking things
01:07:50 <FLHerne> alpha_one_x86: I don't think that'll work, you can't configure the port used to contact the masterserver
01:08:06 <LordAro> ah, didn't actually check the pastebin
01:09:50 <FLHerne> alpha_one_x86: You can have your own server listen on whatever port you prefer, but the master only listens on 3978
01:10:19 <FLHerne> So you must have that open outbound
01:10:58 <FLHerne> (in order for server-advertising to work; clients can still connect manually)
01:16:19 <peter1138> That's not configurable anyway.
01:16:37 <peter1138> I doubt they have edited the code and recompiled.
01:16:49 <Eddi|zuHause> what cruel person blocks outbound ports anyway?
01:17:58 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: I've seen various 'open' portals that only allow port 80 and maybe email ones
01:18:26 <peter1138> Any locked down network...
01:18:27 <FLHerne> The /real/ question is who blocks 3978 outbound but not other random high-numbered ports...
01:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause> see, cruel persons...
01:19:52 <peter1138> Probably not blocked, likely is incoming udp is not forwarded.
01:22:19 <alpha_one_x86> the real question is: how test the outbound 3978 port?
01:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's actually rather unlikely the outbound is the problem
01:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> inless you're in some shitty hotel place
01:31:05 <alpha_one_x86> I'm preparing VPS image for a local datacenter in Bolivia, IPv6 have full connectivity, and each VPS have an public IPv6
01:32:12 <Eddi|zuHause> overzealous corporate firewall might be another source of outbound problem
01:35:48 <alpha_one_x86> how test it? If I can test it, I can fix it
01:36:15 <alpha_one_x86> The IPv6 support is full and without firewall
01:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> with udp packages? only if you have a destination where you can check it actually arrived
01:36:27 <alpha_one_x86> (out of the VPS)
01:36:58 <alpha_one_x86> it's the problem, no udp confirmation is returned?
01:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no confirmation whether an UDP package arrived
01:37:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it is fire-and-forget
01:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the advantage of UDP, it does not have this connection overhead that TCP has where each side must remember the connection state until both confirmed they have it established
02:08:41 <peter1138> packet, not package.
02:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> really, those are the same word for me
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02:26:50 <peter1138> Yeah, but they're not.
02:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, but you won't change that :p
02:35:48 <peter1138> Networks deal with packets.
02:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and tommorrow it's about installing stuff and it's the other way around. still the same word for me
02:49:40 <snail_UES_> so is this going to be part of trunk?
03:03:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but also it could be another "... i had a patch for that" in 10 years :p
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10:49:08 <andythenorth> petrochem economy in FIRS
10:50:27 <andythenorth> what if I deleted supplies?
10:50:34 <andythenorth> and primaries needed specific inputs?
10:51:05 <V453000> would definitely make for an intersting economy, but one of the benefits to the supplies is that it's kind of clear that they do that
10:51:55 <andythenorth> so no frac sand then
10:52:01 <andythenorth> and no POOP to arable farms
10:52:44 <andythenorth> and other silly names
10:55:25 <Arveen> did i read poop cargo ?
11:00:07 <FLHerne> I don't think having 64 railtypes on the current model would be sane...
11:01:24 <FLHerne> (but then I don't think 64 cargos is sane, and that's being done)
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11:56:18 <peter1138> Can you describe an alternative model?
11:57:12 <andythenorth> it doesn't matter if it's sane :)
11:57:35 <andythenorth> it's content, so the player retains the choice to *not use them*
11:57:47 <andythenorth> I think we agonised too long about arbitrary restrictions on content
11:58:24 <andythenorth> I can use Comic Sans on my Mac, even though Jobs was a vitriolic font nerd
11:58:33 <SpComb> is there a "download and activate all" button in the bananas/newgrf UI? :)
11:59:31 <SpComb> download all the railsets!
11:59:45 <SpComb> I remember seeing a screenshot of the resulting dropdown
12:03:11 <peter1138> Probably posted by me.
12:03:29 <peter1138> And probably caused the set authors to cry.
12:17:33 <andythenorth> so 64 inputs and 64 outputs per industry? o_O
12:18:29 <peter1138> Hmm, need to pick up that vehicle list stuff that was discussed a month or two ago.
12:20:25 <andythenorth> oh that was nice
12:20:34 <andythenorth> it will unleash all kinds of crazy
12:20:43 <peter1138> Even that had arguments about what it was ;(
12:20:45 <andythenorth> so many ways to use that for BAD FEATURES
12:20:56 <andythenorth> it was the grouping IDs no?
12:21:19 <andythenorth> and then [mumble mumble] about how auto-replace can work with that
12:21:37 <andythenorth> wavey hands a bit, and all is well
12:22:51 <peter1138> Making up features no user nor dev wants, woo.
12:23:02 <peter1138> More railtypes? It's not sane.
12:25:37 <andythenorth> mumble user needs
12:25:49 <andythenorth> mumble don't do engineering for engineering's sake
12:25:54 <andythenorth> but where's the fun in that :P
12:26:06 <andythenorth> we're not building the tax return system here
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12:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> we could have 64 railtypes and still enforce 16 per grf :p
12:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure encouraging users to add multiple railtype GRFs simultaneously will not cause any problems at all :p
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13:22:37 <FLHerne> peter1138: Having speed limits, electrification, and/or gauge be orthogonal would make it less absurd
13:22:51 <FLHerne> But then there are the people who want weight limits
13:23:51 <peter1138> No, electrification and gauge are definitely part of the railtype definition.
13:26:28 <peter1138> Not even sure about that.
13:27:22 <andythenorth> I'm fine with the absurdity
13:27:25 <andythenorth> it is what it is
13:27:41 <andythenorth> if we'd split electrification from day 0, maybe it would be different, but eh
13:27:48 <FLHerne> Perhaps it's just a UI thing
13:27:53 <peter1138> Problem with having all those things as separate features is you 1-take space away and enforce that space has to be used for those features (or wasted) and 2-combinatorial hell, 3-who defines what is what.
13:28:08 <andythenorth> UI is a cluster fuck either way
13:28:13 <peter1138> andythenorth, no, electrification can't be split
13:28:20 <peter1138> electrification is not binary
13:28:23 <FLHerne> If track-types could be categorised like NewObjects, vast numbers of them would be less overwhelming
13:28:35 <andythenorth> well let's make groups for vehicle IDs
13:28:45 <andythenorth> railtypes is for the best in this best of all possible worlds
13:28:53 <andythenorth> but cargo subtypes are made of ass
13:28:59 <FLHerne> peter1138: If it was only catenary, splitting it as an overlay thing would still work reasonably
13:29:07 <peter1138> but it's NOT only catenary.
13:29:21 <FLHerne> But I can't see how third-rails could work that way
13:29:31 <peter1138> different voltage systems
13:29:59 <FLHerne> peter1138: I think different-voltage catenary would be fine
13:30:19 <peter1138> but if electrification is just a flag... then you can't have that
13:30:20 * andythenorth wonders about discussing things that are moot :)
13:30:21 <FLHerne> peter1138: "Build catenary" could have a 15kV/25kV/both dropdown
13:30:32 <peter1138> AC/DC it's okay by me
13:30:38 <andythenorth> 64 output cargos per industry? :)
13:30:43 <FLHerne> And the sprites aren't really affected by track type
13:30:57 <FLHerne> But third-rail really has to be part of the track sprite
13:31:27 <peter1138> I can switch and change my frequency.
13:31:32 <FLHerne> Hm, "build catenary" isn't quite what I was envisaging
13:32:17 <FLHerne> More like a dropdown "catenary: none, 1500VDC, 25kVAC, both" while building rails or using the conversion tool
13:32:32 <FLHerne> (but it still doesn't really work)
13:32:33 <peter1138> Anyway, last time we discussed this it came down to being totally a UI thing, and separate rail types is totally appropriate.
13:33:49 <FLHerne> I guess that could extend to sub-railtypes generally, and leave the policy to newgrf
13:33:50 <peter1138> (And in that case, increasing to 64 types is just a stepping stone)
13:33:59 <peter1138> No, there are no sub-railtypes
13:34:25 <andythenorth> is it lunchtime yet?
13:34:55 <FLHerne> So the newgrf could define "90mph standard rail" with different kinds of electrication, or "25kV rail" with different speed limits, and let authors fight out which was better
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13:35:44 <FLHerne> (I do find the one flat list very annoying)
13:36:53 <FLHerne> More of a UI-presentation thing than trying to make railtypes combine or inherit things, which is silly
13:37:31 <peter1138> Yeah. That's why cargo subtypes are a flop.
13:38:25 <peter1138> Of course, cargo subtypes are not even an attribute of cargo types, they are defined by vehicles... o_O
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13:53:56 <Eddi|zuHause> "cargo subtypes" are a complete misnomer
13:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe "vehicle subtypes" or "transportation subtypes"
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16:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the spammers are mutating
16:05:37 <nielsm> what kind of smear campaign is this anyway? I'm not clicking any of the links
16:06:23 <gregf> the links seem pretty legit
16:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> who knows, but the previous of these spams were from "amazon web services" hosts
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16:09:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that still doesn't mean you should give spammers more reason to exist by actually reacting to them
16:13:56 <Yotson> It seem to be so called Joe Job spam. Freenode had some at the end of last year as well.
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16:31:54 <SpComb> TF has normal rail and high-speed rail, both with caternary... early-game trains can drive on both, so it's nice in terms of gameplay because it lets you gradually upgrade in the mid-game... what does 1500VDC vs 25kVAC even mean in terms of gameplay? Sounds like what you'd end up with if you mixed two different train sets on the same map
16:32:27 <SpComb> I mean, you can build the TGV and have it drive on normal rail, it'll just be limited to 120km/h
16:32:51 <gregf> Tharbakim debdog michi_cc Rubidium tyteen4a03 Hirundo SpComb rocky113844 Smedles masse Eddi|zuHause hrmny XeryusTC angguss[m] Alkel_U3 KouDy supermop_work greeter Maarten gregf Heiki Sacro argoneus Exec colde ccfreak2k Osai rocky1138 Westie avdg LordAro nauticalnexus APTX_ Mek Yexo murr4y gnu_jj
16:32:51 <gregf> Wacko1976 TrueBrain Flygon techmagus OsteHovel IgnoredAmbience cHawk orudge TinoDidriksen juzza1 LJ Antheus gas1[m] Mazur keoz urdh Sylf peter1138 crem2 tokai Extrems luaduck V453000 DorpsGek johnwhitlow[m] Hazzard Compu HeyCitizen Yotson manila[m] blathijs ^Spike^ pixeldanger[m] Terkhen Agiri[m]
16:32:51 <gregf> grossing Markk dihedral triolus[m] mikegrb Wacko1976-work Arveen Lejving_ FLHerne quiznilo Laedek mindlesstux tneo Mahjong nielsm reldred _dp_ Ammler vlanik2[m] Taede berndj SmatZ heffer fonsinchen swimstar[m] planetmaker dvim Webster cute[m] chomwitt UncleCJ KenjiE20
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16:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so much for "legit links"
16:33:39 <colde> Damn, it's started here now as well
16:33:46 <crem2> They even found my private IRC for logs collecting where I'm literally alone!
16:35:29 <colde> Ops might want to set +M proactively
16:35:37 <colde> i suspect they will be back
16:35:44 <crem2> It's far from annoying rate for now.
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16:39:13 <colde> Eddi|zuHause: +R prevents them from join, +M only prevents them from speaking, so it's the least intrusive way to stop them afaik
16:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but +M will prevent everone else from speaking as well
16:40:11 <crem2> But is there really anything to discuss?
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16:42:55 <nielsm> SpComb, afaik early electric railways were DC because those motors were cheaper or whatever, then later AC took over, but modern electric motors are variable frequency so AC line will get rectified and re-inverted at variable frequency
16:43:28 <nielsm> (so a modern multi-system elctric locotmotive just has a few different input stages to switch between)
16:43:50 <SpComb> newer AC trains can drive on older DC track?
16:44:11 <nielsm> but the simplified model of electrification every TT-like game has makes it difficult to give these differences gameplay meaning
16:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: it's complicated...
16:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> DC is easier to construct, but has problems with long distances
16:45:47 <nielsm> you have locos capable of running on most of those systems just with a switch
16:46:23 <SpComb> why would you want to build multiple incompatible electification systems in the same game of OpenTTD :P
16:46:56 <nielsm> yes see it's difficult to implement good gameplay around systems where the player knows a choice is dead end
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16:47:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the early AC locomotives had problems with sparks in each phase, so they chose a lowered frequency
16:47:11 <nielsm> but historically the people implementing it didn't know it would be
16:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the countries which adopted AC later, chose the normal frequency
16:47:30 <SpComb> I just hope there's more to NRT than just forcing you to rebuild track at some point in the game
16:48:05 <nielsm> very few places have changed electrification system of an entire railroad
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16:48:07 <SpComb> like the original rail/monorail/maglev... electrified rail makes so much more sense
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16:48:33 <nielsm> usually you just keep building new engines to run on the old system
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16:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the original monrail/maglev has mainly the problem that standard rail lost all the vehicles at some point, so you had to switch
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16:50:16 <SpComb> main problem I see is that you can't upgrade from rail to maglev in-place, you need to replace all the trains too
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16:50:36 <nielsm> yeah you can't do that in reality either
16:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there's two problems with that
16:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> a) you shouldn't have to do that replacement
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16:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> b) you probably don't want that replacement to be 1:1, you need much fewer trains after conversion
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16:51:23 <nielsm> but in reality you can do partial upgrades of a conventional rail system, as long as the basic track remains compatible
16:51:28 <nielsm> ugh so much join/kill spam
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16:51:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i have join/leave messages disabled for people who never spoke
16:52:05 <SpComb> yeah, that's what I mean by the TTDPatch/OpenTTD eletrification / TF high-speed rail upgrade being better in terms of gameplay
16:52:46 <nielsm> but the cost of those upgrades are almost insignificant in my experience
16:52:55 <nielsm> making them a no questions good choice
16:54:01 <nielsm> and then the distinction between non-/electrified rail becomes pointless anyway
16:54:24 <nielsm> if you play with infrastructure maintenance costs and the maintenance cost of electrified rail is actually significantly higher, then it might become interesting
16:54:39 <nielsm> also if you had to build and manage the electric substation infrastructure
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17:51:51 <andythenorth> pigment mine? o_O
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17:52:18 <nielsm> I think most minerals need some additional processing to be useful as pigments
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17:53:12 <andythenorth> I have sulfuric acid :P
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17:59:51 <nielsm> uh huh? there is industry_type.h and then industrytype.h
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18:06:03 <planetmaker> nielsm, I guess there's a difference between industry types (as in different industries) and industry types (as in type definitions concerning industries). But it's rather... hand-wavy
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18:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: *_type.h is for C++-types concerning *
18:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: and industrytype.h is about actual industrytypes
18:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever looked at either file
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18:26:51 <peter1138> nielsm, similar for cargo and rail :D
18:34:51 <LordAro> maybe should consider +R again?
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18:51:41 <andythenorth> is it a bot again?
18:51:54 <andythenorth> like a really polite bot?
18:52:44 <LordAro> nielsm: i would if i could
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19:22:31 <nielsm> oh where did andy go... had something for him to play with
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19:28:12 <nielsm> frosch123: there's a large number of spambots constantly joining and getting killed by the network, +R was put back to limit join/part spam
19:28:26 <frosch123> oh, i thought i had forgotton it :p
19:28:38 <LordAro> frosch123: you did, TB removed it :p
19:29:15 <ilera> i have a blind friend who's unable to use nickserv because of his disability and can't join the channel now :(
19:30:05 <LordAro> can use irc but cannot use nickserv?
19:30:52 <ilera> nickserv is not very accessible
19:30:56 <LordAro> i did read your previous message, yes
19:31:13 <LordAro> just as accessible as normal text, i would say
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19:35:30 <andythenorth> that diverts my evening :P
19:48:51 <nielsm> andythenorth: I'm not sure if anything else needs to be done for it to also work with newgrf so please report back :D
19:49:10 <andythenorth> I'll need to patch some stuff locally probs
19:49:33 <nielsm> ah nmlc patch again maybe?
19:54:42 <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "generated/firs.nml", line 219485: Cargo list must be an array with no more than 2 values
19:54:46 <andythenorth> yeah I need to patch that
20:16:31 <andythenorth> it's attractive now eh :D
20:17:03 * andythenorth tries to fix nmlc
20:19:20 <andythenorth> hopefully trivial
20:20:22 <andythenorth> I have totally changed position on removing limits in newgrf features
20:20:32 <andythenorth> seems to co-incide with quitting forums
20:23:07 <andythenorth> I always forget how to get the patched nml installed :P
20:25:18 <andythenorth> why prod_cargo_types is limited to 2 in nml (looks right)
20:25:27 <andythenorth> but accept_cargo_types is limited to 4 (looks wrong)
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20:26:37 <andythenorth> nielsm: have you got an nml checkout? :P
20:27:09 <andythenorth> it's pretty simple
20:27:26 <andythenorth> I might be able to do this, but I might need someone else playing along at home :P
20:29:41 <andythenorth> hmm it's built a newgrf
20:29:52 <andythenorth> but openttd thinks its invalid
20:31:38 <nielsm> does nml use python 2 or 3?
20:33:00 <andythenorth> that compiles, but the change from 2 bytes to 4 looks odd and weird
20:33:35 <nielsm> I think 16 is the correct number
20:35:31 <andythenorth> if I remember correctly
20:35:44 <andythenorth> the newgrf format needs to know how many bytes to expect in an action 0
20:35:55 * andythenorth checks the current sizing
20:36:31 <andythenorth> yeah prop 10 is a word
20:36:36 <andythenorth> and prop 11 is a dword
20:36:49 <andythenorth> we might need to change those on the ottd side as well
20:37:09 <andythenorth> within certain parameters, nml will just right out what it's given
20:37:18 <nielsm> I have no idea how newgrf stuff works at all :)
20:37:21 <andythenorth> so the nml side might be done with my patch
20:37:34 <andythenorth> oh it's just a bunch of bytes :D
20:37:52 <andythenorth> let's see if we can find ottd reading prop 10
20:38:01 <andythenorth> there's a table somewhere maybe
20:38:27 <nielsm> both would need to become 16 byte types somehow
20:38:56 <andythenorth> oh it's a byte per cargo?
20:39:36 <nielsm> it felt like a good number
20:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't 8 suffice for 64 bits?
20:39:59 <nielsm> it's an array of cargoIDs
20:40:36 <andythenorth> ok so nml might not know how to write out 16 :P
20:40:51 <andythenorth> and I need to find these props in ottd somewhere
20:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> cargo ID is a byte?
20:42:14 <andythenorth> nfo docs suggest so
20:42:22 <andythenorth> but I haven't found where in ottd code this is yes
20:42:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it would surprise me if nmlc had trouble writing a string of 16 bytes
20:43:11 <andythenorth> but it might have integrity checks
20:43:31 <nielsm> ottd probably doesn't expect any more than the 2 and 4 bytes
20:43:39 <nielsm> so 16 would confuse it
20:43:47 <andythenorth> and it will report invalid sprites likely
20:43:58 <andythenorth> and then we have to think about older grfs
20:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that change probably needs a grf version bump
20:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause> or a new property deprecating the old one
20:44:40 <nielsm> maybe new actions are needed for the extension
20:45:02 <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
20:45:13 <andythenorth> line 190, in print_varx
20:45:47 <andythenorth> well we've learnt something about scope :)
20:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, vars (as in "used in varaction2 or action6/7/9/D) can't be more than 4 bytes
20:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i was assuming you're modifying a property, not a var
20:47:25 <nielsm> just looking through newgrf_industries.cpp for things right now
20:47:27 <Eddi|zuHause> (as in, action0)
20:47:30 <nielsm> and noticing more incompatibilities
20:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: spoiler alert: it's almost never as easy as the first hack suggests :p
20:50:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: nielsm: i guess you will have to define the newgrf syntax first
20:50:44 <frosch123> with no guarantees for completeness or suitability :)
20:50:45 <andythenorth> how about a CB? :P
20:50:49 <andythenorth> called 16 times :P
20:50:58 * andythenorth uses the 'CB get out of jail free' card :P
20:53:07 <nielsm> (having acceptances spread over multiple tiles also induces more interesting designs like "this is where we take in liquids, and over there are containers")
20:53:37 <andythenorth> historically I've avoided that :D
20:53:54 <andythenorth> it's used in $[some other industry set]
20:53:59 <andythenorth> and it confuses me
20:54:06 <andythenorth> worth a try again
20:54:20 <nielsm> original industries already have that, for some reason
20:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah in PBI there was a food processing industry that accepts livestock at one side and wheat at the other
20:56:28 <andythenorth> the frosch spec looks pretty good to me
20:56:44 <nielsm> frosch123: "var 6E[x]: Date when cargo x was accepted last in days since year 0" --- game does not keep track of this, only a general "any cargo was last accepted this date"
20:56:57 <frosch123> yes, that one would be new
20:57:09 <frosch123> but iirc andy tries to emulate similar things for supplies
20:57:17 <andythenorth> it can be done with registers
20:57:23 <andythenorth> but it would be convenient as a var
20:57:29 <frosch123> feel free to skip it
20:57:38 <andythenorth> there aren't 64 registers eh :P
20:57:54 * andythenorth can't remember if they are word or dword
20:57:59 <frosch123> i just read over all the variables, to check which needs adjustment, and that one came to mind :)
20:58:37 <andythenorth> ignore me, we only need 16 anyway
20:58:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: depends whether you want to add 64 types of supply cargos
20:59:11 <andythenorth> if it's a CB, can I vary acceptance? :P
20:59:23 <frosch123> you already can with 3D
20:59:33 <frosch123> but it is messy due to the tile acceptance
20:59:43 <nielsm> the tiles would keep accepting the cargo
20:59:53 <frosch123> removing tile acceptance would be a different patch :)
20:59:59 <nielsm> the cargo would still be unloaded and paid for, just not delivered to the industry
21:00:32 <frosch123> nielsm: there are also callbacks to stop tile acceptance. but they are called at different times
21:00:56 <frosch123> so the few industry sets which use that, there are transition times
21:01:00 <andythenorth> varying acceptance is a terrible idea :)
21:01:11 <frosch123> where cargo is accepted/not yet accepted by either tiles or industry
21:02:09 <frosch123> anyway: this stuff is only used by industries with limited stockpiles
21:02:24 <frosch123> and those newgrf already complained that ottd only checks the acceptance once per cargo packet
21:02:32 <frosch123> so ottd always overshoots the limit
21:03:02 <frosch123> (if stockpile is 998, limit is 1000, and 16 items are delivered, it results in 1014 stockpiled)
21:03:37 <frosch123> so, touching anything around 2B/2C/4D opens way scarier barrels :p
21:04:05 <andythenorth> I think we back away from the barrels
21:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> oh i had some fun trying to set up overflow routes for cargos with PBI
21:05:16 <Eddi|zuHause> needs conditinal loading, as in "leave stations if load amount > 0"
21:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... conditional shunting...
21:06:35 <nielsm> frosch123: I also left some comments about more boring aspects of the code in the PR, do you think you can lend some input on those points?
21:09:24 * andythenorth wonders when we move nml to openttd github
21:09:50 <andythenorth> planetmaker: did we discuss that recently? o_O ^
21:17:46 <frosch123> though i think nml was supposed to go to ottd
21:22:04 <andythenorth> it would be much easier to be able to PR the nml changes alongside the ottd changes
21:22:09 <andythenorth> or at least in the same workfloew
21:23:41 <Wolf01> I need to fix my connect script, a timeout after issuing the identify command would be nice when the server takes a bit to identify
21:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> run the identify and the join in parallel, but precede the join with a sleep?
21:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> or run the identify and the sleep in parallel, and continue when either of those returns?
21:31:36 * nielsm tries reading the newgrf loading code
21:41:19 <andythenorth> nielsm: so keep going? o_O
21:41:32 <andythenorth> or bail out of this :)
21:41:44 <nielsm> I'll try to see this through
21:42:04 <andythenorth> I think it's achieveable
21:42:12 <andythenorth> adding a cb is usually easy
21:42:36 <andythenorth> it's one of the few core commits I've done, so eh
21:42:55 <nielsm> it's adding it in the right place :)
21:42:59 <frosch123> there are no new callbacks
21:43:05 <frosch123> it's only changing existing ones
21:45:12 <andythenorth> and it anticipates more than 2 or 3 in future
21:47:58 <nielsm> I'm concerned that the IndustrySpec not getting the default acceptance/production data might make things slightly weird
21:50:07 <frosch123> nielsm: src/table/build_industry.h: extend "#define MI" with many "CT_INVALID" :)
21:50:24 <nielsm> frosch123 I did already
21:59:02 <nielsm> instead of/in addition to callbacks, would it be wrong to add a pair of new action0 properties that each take two bytes, the first is a cargo slot number and the second is a cargo type, repeatedly using the action with different cargo slot number sets the accepted/produced cargoes
21:59:37 <nielsm> possibly the cargo production property sets both cargo type and production level
22:00:30 <frosch123> changing action 0 is always a compatibility hassle
22:00:59 <frosch123> adding incremental properties is very rare, and would not work in this case, since there are default values
22:01:15 <frosch123> you could add a new property which takes a list of cargos
22:01:24 <frosch123> but for a first version, callbacks are easier
22:02:25 <nielsm> I think the industry chains window will be the victim, I believe it depends on the IndustrySpec definitions
22:02:39 <frosch123> hmm, i did not write it explicitly in the draft
22:02:40 <nielsm> and with just callbacks the IndustrySpec won't contain the cargoes
22:03:09 <nielsm> as far as I understand the cb is only called upon actually constructing the industry on the map
22:03:09 <frosch123> but i think cb 14b/14c should be called once on game start with "purchase list context"
22:03:14 <frosch123> and then the cargos are fixed
22:03:25 <frosch123> this is almost the same as a property then
22:03:43 <frosch123> the result of the callback would be stored in the industryspec in this case
22:05:00 <frosch123> it's similar to the gui sprites of railtypes
22:05:18 <frosch123> but i think there were some more cases where callbacks are only called once in AfterLoadGRFs
22:05:47 <nielsm> e.g. CBID_INDUSTRY_INPUT_CARGO_TYPES is only ever used in DoCreateNewIndustry() which is actually building on the map
22:06:00 <andythenorth> that's fine no? o_O
22:06:03 <andythenorth> or do I miss something?
22:06:35 <nielsm> the Industry object gets filled with actual in/out cargoes, but the IndustrySpec is not
22:06:43 <frosch123> nielsm: yes, currently that's the case
22:06:53 <frosch123> see line 42 in my paste
22:06:57 <nielsm> so the "fund new industry" and "industry chains" windows won't reflect the actual acceptances
22:07:15 <frosch123> the idea is that "purchase list" would return all potential cargos
22:07:26 <frosch123> and for a specific industry the callback may choose a subset
22:07:43 <frosch123> that should make the chain and fund gui work better than before
22:07:50 <frosch123> while not removing the old usecases of the callback
22:08:20 <nielsm> ah the call in DoCreateNewIndustry already points at INVALID_TILE anyway, so no location information there
22:08:27 <nielsm> but it does pass an Industry object
22:08:41 <nielsm> just passing NULL for Industry* should be valid?
22:08:51 <frosch123> the call in DoCreateIndustry can use the current date and random values to pick different cargos
22:09:16 <frosch123> yes, NULL should be fine
22:14:24 <Eddi|zuHause> there needs to be a special version of that callback for towns/houses
22:19:55 <nielsm> it's like unlimited data caps on internet
22:20:41 <frosch123> yes, essentially that. maybe check for duplicates and treat them as error, but maybe that's a bonus
22:20:58 <nielsm> (the grf should be ready to live in a world with even more acceptance types than just 16 if that flag is set)
22:21:50 <frosch123> yes, "unlimited" in the name is certainly better than "16"
22:21:53 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, we did discuss that... yet coverting NML to git did fail for me and the straight forward import didn't do it
22:22:21 <planetmaker> it simply failed with some error messages (which I don't quite recall now)
22:25:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you also just gave it the hg.o.o URL?
22:25:27 <planetmaker> or how did you import it?
22:27:36 <andythenorth> I thought I just imported it using github magic
22:30:06 <andythenorth> I don't have any hg -> git tool locally, so must be github magic
22:30:33 <nielsm> ugh the cargo suffix code needs some real restructuring to get to work
22:30:38 <nielsm> that's not for tonight
22:31:12 <andythenorth> if you achieve this
22:31:20 <andythenorth> I have to refactor all 6 FIRS economies :D
22:31:28 <andythenorth> it will take at least a year :D
22:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause> is that firs for nintendo 64?
22:35:23 <andythenorth> hmm the github magic is failing
22:35:40 <frosch123> you need 64 dimensions to draw the cargo flow chart without intersections? :p
22:36:37 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's not really how dimensions work :p
22:36:53 <frosch123> depends how complex the links are
22:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> any graph can be drawn without intersections in 3D
22:37:26 <frosch123> i am sure andy can find a way to make the edges a 63d manifold
22:37:36 <andythenorth> what if the links change over time?
22:37:44 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yeah, I think so. Irrespective of https or http
22:37:59 <planetmaker> Hm... maybe it's... certificate issue...
22:38:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you need moving edges that don't entangle themselves?
22:42:19 <nielsm> okay too tired to work on this any more, gn
22:42:36 <nielsm> (hopefully I can sleep in this terrible humid heat)
22:43:40 <andythenorth> UK is quite ambient :)
22:43:44 <andythenorth> although I like it warm
22:44:02 <andythenorth> 19 deg right now
22:44:32 <andythenorth> nielsm: so I should stop reworking FIRS Extreme eh :D
22:44:38 <andythenorth> until this is done
22:45:02 <nielsm> eh you can plan the industries? :D
22:45:21 <nielsm> 16 in/16 out probably isn't changing
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continue to next day ⏵
