IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-07-14
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10:31:17 <andythenorth> chart is better locally for me
10:31:33 <andythenorth> graphviz seems deterministic locally, but varies per platform
10:32:12 <andythenorth> 'packaging' sticks out as a choke point
10:36:18 <andythenorth> 'food' could also be split
10:36:30 <andythenorth> 'meat', 'cheese', etc
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11:25:01 <Wolf01> And the winner is Alberth for being the 100th user today!
11:27:13 <Alberth> I'll mark it as 'done' on my bucket list
11:27:51 <Alberth> did I unlock something?
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11:51:35 <Alberth> doesn't look like a major advantage to me
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12:29:55 <andythenorth> so town cargos then
12:30:11 <andythenorth> furniture, textiles, household appliances
12:32:20 <andythenorth> bottles, boxes, cans
12:35:45 <andythenorth> lunch is not a major cargo
12:38:35 <Alberth> looks like it can easily become one of my favorite economies
12:38:51 <Alberth> Wolf01: wrong landscape :p
12:38:56 <andythenorth> pizza, pasta, pie
12:39:15 <Wolf01> Add lunch economy to extreme: win
12:39:17 <andythenorth> I wanted to do a city economy for ages
12:39:32 <andythenorth> but with 32 cargos, it would have very bland chains for major industry
12:39:44 <andythenorth> everything would be composite cargos
12:39:53 <andythenorth> feel free to suggest city cargos :P
12:40:40 <Alberth> obviously should be an easter egg itself
12:41:28 <Wolf01> You should be able to bring base products to cities directly, not only to industries to produce food
12:42:21 <andythenorth> household chemicals or detergent
12:42:32 <andythenorth> meat, fish, cheese
12:43:10 <Alberth> I do hope you keep mail, as it has passengers :)
12:43:48 <Wolf01> Add "amazon" and packages too
12:43:51 <andythenorth> I could eliminate goods completely
12:44:19 <Alberth> oh, dairy is already in
12:44:29 <Wolf01> Amazon eats every type of cargo and produces packages
12:44:31 <andythenorth> not sure what I'd do with 'fish'
12:44:38 <Alberth> 'goods' would be too generic here, I think
12:45:02 <andythenorth> it needs a processed / unprocessed version
12:45:15 <andythenorth> oh, edible oil is exported from other economies
12:45:17 <andythenorth> that could be in
12:45:41 <andythenorth> a substantial challenge is organising destinations :P
12:45:54 <Alberth> packaging in the harbour seems a bit simple
12:45:59 <andythenorth> towns aren't great for locating the necessary black hole industries
12:46:22 <andythenorth> Wolf01: think we can adjust town road layout? o_O
12:46:29 <andythenorth> add a 'spacious' option?
12:46:35 <Wolf01> What do you need to fix there?
12:46:45 <andythenorth> build boulevards
12:46:50 <Wolf01> Just add 4x4, 5x5, 6x6
12:46:55 <Alberth> leave that puzzle to the players :)
12:47:05 <andythenorth> I think a few tweaks might help
12:47:44 <Alberth> what about transporting passengers to the industries?
12:47:45 <andythenorth> ho, Railroad Tycoon had toys :)
12:47:54 <andythenorth> dunno about pax industries
12:48:02 <andythenorth> other sets do it
12:48:37 <Wolf01> We need to extend the number of cargos accepted/produced by industries, it will open a lot of new roads
12:48:53 <andythenorth> dunno about the accept / produce limit
12:48:56 <andythenorth> I mostly like it
12:49:06 <andythenorth> sometimes 3 out would be useful, but it forces choices
12:49:45 <Alberth> just those that have room for in & out ?
12:50:16 <Alberth> only in or only out would be weird imho
12:56:02 <Alberth> some coffee would be nice
12:57:54 <andythenorth> so town industries?
12:58:39 <andythenorth> household appliance shop
12:59:06 <nielsm> is it possible to make them not industries but just regular town buildings accepting those goods?
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13:05:39 <andythenorth> nielsm: the challenge with houses is (1) ensuring they're built (2) preventing them being replaced (3) players can't fund them
13:05:54 <andythenorth> there are partial solutions to that, but it's easier to just use industry
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13:14:23 <debdog> haha, is he ever goingt start building the bridge
13:15:24 <Wolf01> I'm studying a new industrial robotic arm for next year's expo, this time with more functions
13:17:13 <Arveen> he spend the last couple of hours just sorting the blocks
13:17:33 <Wolf01> Sorting is for pussies
13:17:48 <Arveen> indeed, i never sorted anything when i build Legos
13:17:54 <Wolf01> Everything inside a bin
13:18:29 <Arveen> would be even more manly if he doesn't look at the instructions
13:18:30 <andythenorth> I sort when I buy from bricklink
13:18:33 <Wolf01> (talks the one which has 19 boxes with compartments)
13:18:36 <andythenorth> but not when I'm building
13:18:45 <andythenorth> I just have a box of big bits and a box of small bits
13:19:16 <debdog> can't wait for the cat to roam the table
13:20:48 <andythenorth> nuclear power chain for extreme?
13:21:13 <Alberth> it will solve the endless discussion :p
13:21:30 <andythenorth> that's still going on?
13:21:46 <Alberth> nah, it's mostly silent
13:22:02 <andythenorth> split wood to 'pulpwood' and 'logs' ?
13:22:20 <andythenorth> then pulpwood can also go to biomass power plant
13:27:39 <andythenorth> maybe 64 cargos aren't enough
13:50:02 <andythenorth> so deliver all the different town cargos straight to town?
13:50:12 <andythenorth> or to warehouses, to make 'food' and 'goods'?
13:58:42 <Alberth> warehouse would be silly, you take all this effort to make nice chains, and then just merge all streams?
13:59:21 <Alberth> the whole point is to make chaos in cities, right?
14:02:18 <reldred> I like the idea of chaos in cities
14:08:41 <andythenorth> I had better figure it out then eh :P
14:08:55 <andythenorth> shall I rename the economy 'City Chaos' :P
14:09:19 <reldred> Industries moving into cities was one of my favorite things with newindustries back in the day of it's introduction, so I'm very keen to see what you're up to based on snippets I've been reading from you over the past few days :P
14:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "Chaos City" was the german "translation" of the TV series "Spin City"
14:19:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so, on an unrelated note, i would like some methods to query the state of railtypes. particularly, whether two entries in my RTT are pointing to the same actual railtype.
14:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> in either an action 2 or 6/7/9/D
14:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> also, useful would be to know the GRFID defining the railtype (like vehicle var 25)
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14:40:39 <frosch123> i think multiple newgrf can define and alter the same railttype
14:41:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i think in the context of var25 it is meant "the location of the action 3"
14:42:25 <frosch123> yes, but act3 is more part of the activation phase than the reservation phase
14:42:59 <frosch123> so testing for that in a7/9 would result in rimworld-style mode
14:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, so that part would only make sense in action2
14:45:40 <frosch123> so you want vendor-lockin grfs :) trains stop on tracks of other grf authors
14:46:24 <frosch123> yetis go on strike if they have to drive on r* tracks
14:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but MB wants to include rail sprites in his station graphics, and they must match the actually used railtype.
14:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> for that, the railtype label is not a useful distinction
14:49:36 <peter1138> "rimworld-style mods"?
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15:08:18 <frosch123> peter1138: they are loaded in order without any kind of loading stages
15:08:40 <frosch123> so getting multiple mods into a working order requires some puzzling
15:08:48 <frosch123> and some insight how mods change stuff
15:09:30 <frosch123> ottd otoh has at least 3 stages to test what other newgrf did, and i think factorio has two
15:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> as for the "check if two railtypes are the same", if i want for example a wagon in multiple weight classes (18t, 20t, etc.) with different capacity, then i could hide them if the railtypes do not actually distinguish by weight
15:11:03 <frosch123> i understood that part :)
15:11:09 <frosch123> and it is fine in a7/9
15:11:18 <frosch123> well, a7, not a9 :p
15:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i never really understood the distinction
15:22:27 <Wolf01> andythenorth: did you confuse your cat recently?
15:22:44 <andythenorth> not intentionally
15:41:14 <andythenorth> but the oil refinery has no spare outputs
15:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> split it into more industries
15:47:39 <andythenorth> there isn't really an intermediate product
15:47:58 <andythenorth> there's "naptha" but the term is contended
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19:00:58 <andythenorth> all this building materials stuff
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19:45:22 <andythenorth> that's more than 64 cargos
19:48:05 <Alberth> just building material? :p
19:48:59 <Alberth> could split it in a few house materials or so
19:49:00 <andythenorth> wonder whether to disaggregate the cargo
19:49:07 <andythenorth> and just deliver it to more town industries
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19:49:23 <andythenorth> iirc, it's cement, bricks, timber, glass and metal parts
19:49:46 <Alberth> quite enough, I think
19:49:49 <andythenorth> yeah so 5 cargos there
19:50:06 <andythenorth> but glass could be a cargo
19:50:31 <andythenorth> cement already is
19:50:58 <Alberth> insert some pre-fabrication thing in the timber connection?
19:51:26 <andythenorth> which turns timber into stuff for houses
19:51:45 <andythenorth> hmm, it needs creosote
19:51:50 <andythenorth> maybe I should add 'paint'
20:01:04 <andythenorth> in very small units?
20:01:32 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: “glass” is already a stand-alone cargo in ECS
20:02:01 <snail_UES_> and “dyes” in ECS sound very similar to “paint”
20:03:56 <nielsm> dyes and paint are not at all the same thing though?
20:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> paint you make from dyes
20:04:29 <nielsm> paint is usually made with pigment afaik, not sure dyes are suitable for paint
20:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's a different thing than what i meant
20:05:03 <andythenorth> I'm trying to work out how to get something to make roads with
20:05:07 <andythenorth> and treat timber :P
20:06:24 <nielsm> copper is an ingredient for some kinds of pressure treatment of timber
20:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> dyes are water-soluable, and thus easier to process than pigment, but less resistant to light
20:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> is that coca cola for pets?
20:08:51 <nielsm> it's when you keep lumps of coal for company
20:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> do the cokes put mice in front of your door or jump on tables?
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20:18:40 <andythenorth> copper + petroleum fuels?
20:23:46 <andythenorth> seems a bit detailed
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21:23:45 <andythenorth> so 3 output cargos per industry? o_O
21:27:33 <nielsm> the biggest risk of adding more output cargos per industry in the game would probably be AI and GS compatibility
21:27:48 <nielsm> some may have assumptions
21:28:27 <nielsm> apart from that it looks like it's almost just increasing a constant, everything else already handles the output cargoes in a loop
21:41:10 <andythenorth> selfishly, it would mean redesigning FIRS :)
21:41:16 <andythenorth> so I am probably -1 :)
21:41:31 <andythenorth> I should solve my current problem differently
22:20:26 <frosch123> nielsm: that's unlikely
22:20:34 <frosch123> in ai and gs everything are lists
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22:28:11 <nielsm> frosch123 I know, but I could still imagine someone making dumb assumptions
22:28:21 <nielsm> by copy-paste code or whatever
22:28:41 <frosch123> it's more likely that a newgrf is broken
22:30:33 <andythenorth> FIRS compile would need refactored a bit :P
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22:54:36 <andythenorth> mine tar products?
22:55:39 <andythenorth> how much realism to include? :P
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23:35:25 <andythenorth> LPG could be a cargo
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