IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-05-27
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00:10:48 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: It's likely not the solution you're expecting, but still... :)
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00:53:04 <glx> oh I like the idea michi_cc
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12:50:52 <frosch123> replace the PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT by whatever palette you want
12:51:36 <frosch123> if you want to change recolouring by cargotype you need some more switches
12:51:49 <V453000> cargo switch sounds easy
12:52:08 <V453000> the part for different layers I don't understand
12:52:19 <frosch123> cargo switch would hit a weak point of nml syntax, so would be quite long :p
12:56:36 <Wolf01> Today I'm going to automate things in minecraft
12:58:24 <V453000> OH because that's a part of the layer switch too
12:59:28 <V453000> that sounds fairly reasonable
13:04:07 <V453000> what does this do then? CB_FLAG_MORE_SPRITES
13:04:47 <frosch123> the layers are resolved in sequence
13:05:05 <frosch123> first 0, then 1, then 2, ... until it no longer says CB_FLAG_MORE_SPRITES
13:05:46 <frosch123> with the "default" you draw the cargo layer 3 times
13:06:26 <V453000> well yeah but you wrote that so I have no idea what it does :P
13:07:48 <frosch123> the artists thought "he's an awesome programmer", the programmers thought "he's an awesome artist"?
13:09:03 <frosch123> it's an adapted quote from a book by clifford stoll
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13:27:37 <V453000> should this be compatible with colour_mapping?
13:36:53 <frosch123> V453000: PALEETE_USE_DEFAULT means to use the palette from colour_mapping
13:38:17 <frosch123> in your last example you use COLOUR_xxx, i am pretty sure those are the wrong constants
13:40:08 <frosch123> V453000: also you are missing the MORE_SPRITES in layer 0 now, so it stops after layer 0
13:44:54 <V453000> COLOUR_RED and COLOUR_BLUE worked for me elsewhere
13:45:33 <V453000> how would I add the MORE_SPRITES thing to the thing? The < 4 ? CB_FLAG_MORE_SPRITES : 0 doesn't make much sense to me :d
14:05:39 <frosch123> just do PALETTE_xxx + MORE_SPRITES
14:06:05 <frosch123> the "<4 ? :" made stuff in one switch, which is now done in multiple
14:06:39 <frosch123> "condition ? value if true : value if false"
14:19:42 <LordAro> isn't that one of V453000's sets?
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14:50:10 <andythenorth> frosch123 seems to be quoting about me :P
14:55:00 <andythenorth> michi_cc: PR updated
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16:31:23 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: nice work :D
16:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> what? that's even more april 1st than the notepad one :p
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16:55:43 <Cthulhux> i was hoping microsoft would finally support the C11 standard :(
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16:58:26 <andythenorth> Wolf01: rotary changeover catches
16:59:08 <andythenorth> I needed them for years
16:59:11 <andythenorth> just didn't know it
16:59:28 <andythenorth> I always hate placing the changeover catch
17:00:46 <Wolf01> It would solve also my joystick fucntions switch
17:01:13 <andythenorth> I think it means that two catches can be synchronised too
17:01:21 <andythenorth> if I've understood it correctly
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17:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> hm.. i must be doing it wrong, i got my hands on a totally-legit copy of Zak McKracken, and loaded it in ScummVM, everything seems to work, except when i use the blue crystal on an animal, it doesn't switch characters
17:41:51 <Wolf01> Might be a bug with the scummvm
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18:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> man, i have a 5¼" disk labelled "Win95 startdisk"
18:30:18 <andythenorth> would win95 really fit? :o
18:30:55 <nielsm> I think it's just a DOS disk with a few troubleshooting utilities
18:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, just the emergency bootdisk
18:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> which is basically the same as previous DOS bootdisks
18:32:49 <Eddi|zuHause> no graphical frontend
18:33:19 * andythenorth re-learning disks on wikipedia
18:33:40 <andythenorth> I had forgotten all about things like DSDD
18:34:07 <Eddi|zuHause> man, pretty much all my disks are DSHD
18:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have no disk drive in a running computer
18:34:26 <andythenorth> this stuff used to really matter :P
18:34:38 <andythenorth> when you needed to span pirated games across multiple disks
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18:35:00 <andythenorth> and the sheer amount of time we used to spend just backing up disks for safety
18:35:14 <andythenorth> on a single disk drive machine, that meant a RAM copy
18:35:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i even had a program called "VGACopy" which could format the 3½" HD disks in 1.7MB instead of 1.44MB
18:35:25 <andythenorth> on a 2MB machine, a 1.44MB disk was workable
18:35:47 <andythenorth> yeah, I remember people had disk stuffing tricks
18:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i once used that to install Win95 on a computer with no CD drive
18:36:30 <Eddi|zuHause> because Win95 install files would naturally fit on those
18:36:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (i assume that was a copy-protection feature)
18:37:02 <andythenorth> in my cupboard I have emergency mac boot disks :P
18:37:09 <andythenorth> they are 256MB hard drives :P
18:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> win95 also came in diskette versions, and the CD basically had all the diskettes as a single directory
18:38:06 <andythenorth> and the time spent sorting the order of the disks :P
18:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so you could split it back into the diskettes, if you had the ability to format 1.7MB
18:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the first two disk were the installer and some misc tools, and the other 20-ish were just one single .cab file
18:39:54 <RedJimi> a pack disks was a proper gift back then, at least among my friends
18:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, for a birthday i got a disk container box and 30 diskettes
18:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i still have these
18:42:03 <andythenorth> nobody would give a USB stick for a birthday present, right?
18:42:16 <andythenorth> "I bought you some cloud storage" :P
18:42:49 <frosch123> 15 years ago, usb stick was a fine present
18:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> my parents got an USB stick for christmas from my sister... but not because of the storage space, but because they contained like a video of the baby
18:44:32 <RedJimi> We once transferred Diablo 1 (i think) from one machine to another just flipping two disks across. One was running ARJ a -va a:archive *.* and the other ARJ x -v a:archive
18:45:04 <RedJimi> or maybe diablo 2 or something big like that. It was a lan party, but our hub broke down
18:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's basically how i did it, i had two disks, and while the one was busy installing, the other was being copied the .cab file on
18:46:20 <Eddi|zuHause> modulo word order
18:47:00 <RedJimi> it's basically just a network with weird packets.
18:47:37 <Eddi|zuHause> never underestimate the bandwidth of a truck loaded with disks driving down a highway
18:50:27 * RedJimi makes a congestion joke
18:54:41 <RedJimi> so, back to OTTD. I played a bunch of the original TT back in the day. Might've been my first LAN game when I played it with my brother.
18:54:55 <RedJimi> I started digging on what the scene is about nowadays. It seems people play with mods a lot, am I right?
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18:55:56 <andythenorth> some people play with a lot of mods yes
18:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... maybe? we only see a tiny subset of users around here. the further outside this "core" group, the less likely they use any fancy mods
18:56:05 <andythenorth> probably some either don't find the mods, or play purist
18:59:32 <RedJimi> ok, I'm more of vanilla guy myself. That being said, I noticed the plethora of translations and though it might be a good thing to help with some of those.
19:01:08 <RedJimi> The game seems to automatically picks up my Finnish Win10 UI and use the appropriate translation.
19:02:00 <RedJimi> but the translations list says it has around 11 things "missing"
19:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the magic of ISO language codes
19:02:41 <RedJimi> does anyone here know about the translations in spesific?
19:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a wiki page on how to sign up as a translator
19:06:41 <RedJimi> According to the logs, in 2013-07-24 one SamanthaD asked about Klingon translation. I was wondering how that could work.
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19:10:15 <RedJimi> I believe it would be possible, but I'm not sure how to proceed on that. The ISO code for klingon is "tlh", but the rest is a blur to me.
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19:16:21 <Alberth> there are around a 4000 strings to translate
19:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> we once had a piglatin translation
19:17:12 <LordAro> some of the dead translations should probably be removed, tbh
19:17:14 <Alberth> although I am not sure you can actually select klingon as language, it would need to be in the newgrf spec language list, I guess
19:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but we decided we didn't want to have these "fun" translations
19:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't see why that wouldn't work
19:19:03 <Alberth> I mean, a dropdown to select a language would need to include the klingon language
19:22:57 <Alberth> hmm, it might be automagic I guess
19:23:18 <RedJimi> I have begun hacking away at a language file.
19:23:59 <RedJimi> it's just a work file, no need to worry
19:24:22 <Alberth> you may want to verify that you can include the file in your install first :p
19:25:16 <Alberth> at the very least you need to run strgen on it to compile the language file
19:25:27 <RedJimi> I'm just doing it for funsies. The lack of vocabulary can prove too big an obstacle
19:26:06 <Alberth> just use "stuff" for every thing you have no name for :)
19:26:36 <Alberth> stuff goes to stuff where it is stuufed to other stuff
19:27:06 <RedJimi> transported from stuff to stuff via stufffff
19:28:00 <RedJimi> The real problem is that I think this should be done with a proper klingon font and not with latin letters.
19:28:39 <nielsm> there's fonts with the proper glyphs aren't there?
19:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> if it's in unicode, it can be written
19:29:39 <RedJimi> I guess, but getting them to OTTD? It's an untrodden path.
19:30:51 <RedJimi> The Klingon space (pun intended) is somewhere in U+F8Dx - U+F8Fx
19:31:57 <RedJimi> that's the one, but do i need to conjure up a pixelated font or something?
19:32:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hope that range doesn't overlap with our use of the plane/train/whatever glyphs
19:32:09 <nielsm> you could also translate to ancient egyptian written in hieroglyphs
19:32:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no, if the pixel font doesn't have it, the game automatically selects a truetype font from the system
19:32:26 <RedJimi> well.. i actually might
19:32:39 <RedJimi> but it's the same problem with vocabulary
19:33:19 <nielsm> people are inventing new latin words for modern things, you can do the same
19:34:12 <RedJimi> Indeed. "Royal-Iron-Horse Carriage" for locomotive.
19:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's fine to invent new words, but it would help if you'd not be the only person to ever use them :p
19:35:00 <RedJimi> If it's really doable, I'm passing the idea to the community.
19:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that just means it'll never be done
19:36:12 <RedJimi> No, they're quite protective of misusing the language. I'll just shove my translations there and ask for improvements
19:36:19 <RedJimi> they cannot resist it.
19:38:31 <nielsm> but yes if a (fictional) language uses the private use area for encoding it might very well clash with OTTD text handling
19:39:02 <nielsm> actually, will strgen complain if it finds reserved PUA characters in the input text?
19:39:32 <RedJimi> I currently don't know strgen at all.
19:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be a warning at best, easy to ignore
19:41:42 <RedJimi> The problem is mainly with the two letter abbreviations with cargo names and such. "Htlh" doesn't really look two letter, now does it.
19:41:59 <RedJimi> otherwise the latin letters would suffice.
19:44:33 <nielsm> klingon script is not actually encoded inside the range OTTD uses of the PUA, but it will still be rejected
19:45:27 <LordAro> can pretend it's something else for testing purposes
19:45:41 <RedJimi> I guess this is an argument for getting Klingon a real UTF space
19:46:14 <RedJimi> it's been rejected several times now - can't imagine why
19:47:18 <LordAro> it's not in emoji form
19:49:29 <nielsm> OTTD only realle reserved E000 to E2FF of the PUA so strgen could be patched to allow characters in the rest of the range... it clashes with some of the ConScript registrations but most will be usable
19:51:42 <nielsm> could just modify strgen to not reject the characters, yes
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19:51:56 <nielsm> and instruct the game to use Code2000 as truetype font
19:53:07 <RedJimi> I'm just becoming skeptical on how the ttf chars look in small size. Maybe I'll devise a Kli pixel font after all.
19:53:55 <RedJimi> one problem at a time
19:54:05 <RedJimi> first I'll assing to fix that Finnish translation
19:54:38 <LordAro> yeah, maybe work on the real language first :p
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19:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: if there's an automatic mapping from english transcript to klingon script, that could be special-cased in strgen
19:55:52 <nielsm> not sure how but at least the japanese translation forces gigantic font size for me
20:04:49 <__ln__> 20:17 < Eddi|zuHause> but we decided we didn't want to have these "fun" translations <-- there's already dutch
20:05:27 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i would have said esperanto, but close enough i guess :p
20:06:18 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: from dutch people i only ever heard "i use every thing in english, because software in dutch is unusable" or something like that
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20:09:41 <RedJimi> small languages do suffer from bad translations
20:10:30 <RedJimi> besides, if you run into a problem and your software is in not-English, there's very little in ways of help in the internet for you.
20:11:07 <__ln__> the dutch wouldn't appreciate you calling it a small language. 23 million native speakers.
20:11:42 <RedJimi> I was speaking on my own behalf, still being Finnish and all
20:11:50 <snail_UES_> I had the same problem with Italian, which was translated by a non-native speaker in some sets
20:12:17 <snail_UES_> and the quality was awful… basically incomprehensible
20:12:18 <snail_UES_> only native speakers should do translations
20:13:40 <RedJimi> snail_UES_: Spot on. I might also not use engineers as translators, ever.
20:16:53 <__ln__> snail_UES_: are we going to find a native klingon speaker?
20:18:00 <snail_UES_> do we need to translate in languages having no native speakers?
20:18:43 <RedJimi> maybe Mark Okrand, Robyn Stewart or Lieven Litaer could count as "close to native"
20:18:50 <RedJimi> there's a bunch of others
20:20:16 <RedJimi> I do understand that conlangs aren't a priority and seem more like an exercise than real work.
20:20:39 <LordAro> insisting on native speakers seems ..unnecessary
20:20:59 <LordAro> being fluent in a language would be enough
20:22:11 <RedJimi> I agree that it's normally a guarantee of at least some profiency in a language.
20:23:19 <LordAro> i.e. most of the people in this channel are non-native english speakers
20:23:23 <nielsm> RedJimi if you dare to download random binaries, here's a patched strgen that shouldn't complain about most characters in the unicode PUA, allowing you to use the ConScript klingon encoding: http://0x0.st/s2eu.zip
20:25:45 <RedJimi> Klingon, among conlangs, has seen some increase in interest after the new Star Trek -show, Discovery started. Netflix even has full Klingon subtitles.
20:26:11 <RedJimi> and then there's the Duolingo-language learning app on android/iphone/? that picked it up.
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20:50:23 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: the more you relax this rule, the more reviewing of changes must happen
20:51:09 <snail_UES_> the issue is that people might overestimate their degree of fluency :p
20:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> well, on the other side, some of the worst english i have ever read was from english native speakers
20:54:33 <andythenorth> we don't have to use it properly
20:54:40 <andythenorth> we get by despite mistakes
20:55:16 <andythenorth> although written English is also very prone to misunderstandings
20:55:56 <LordAro> the accents are especially fun
21:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are german accents that i don't understand a word of
21:18:24 <andythenorth> so is peter1138 riding a bike?
21:26:43 <LordAro> he did that this morning
21:26:50 <LordAro> i guess he could be again
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21:33:46 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are german accents that i don't understand a word of <- me too :>
21:34:11 <andythenorth> do I just test it and say 'works for me', or what?
21:34:50 <LordAro> for a functional review, yeah
21:35:08 <LordAro> code review needs some more knowledge about the code that's being modified
21:35:25 <LordAro> which joanjosep appears to have
21:36:26 <nielsm> I think anyone submitting a PR will appreciate "this is a good idea/bad idea (because reasons)" and "this patch works as described/doesn't seem to work in these cases" comments
21:37:09 <andythenorth> I have a feeling that a large proportion of actual commits went in with no review at all :)
21:37:15 <andythenorth> having been around here for 10 years
21:37:28 <andythenorth> unless all review was DM / email
21:37:42 <michi_cc> andythenorth: sicrit IRC channels :)
21:37:49 <andythenorth> I was in the secret one :P
21:38:00 <andythenorth> it was tumbleweed
21:38:06 <andythenorth> unless that was just the honeypot
21:38:19 <glx> michi_cc: ah yes I can do that :)
21:39:06 <andythenorth> oh so that was just the honeypot
21:39:17 <LordAro> it's also in the topic
21:39:25 <andythenorth> I am in favour of review, I just think it's misunderstood
21:39:45 <andythenorth> I think reviewing is a good introductory activity for new people
21:39:46 <Wolf01> I should join that one too :P
21:40:02 <andythenorth> it's not really about code quality for established committers
21:40:06 <LordAro> i have no issues with devs merging their own PRs, if no one's said anything negative about them after a day or 2
21:40:15 <andythenorth> already we have unknown new people turning up and doing nice comments on PRs
21:41:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: everything got reviewed until like 3 years ago, then there were too few people
21:41:32 <michi_cc> LordAro: Except maybe TB or so, even we can't approve ourself.
21:41:52 <glx> yeah we usually submitted our .diff to others for checking
21:44:34 <LordAro> michi_cc: mm, not sure github has that sort of granularity
21:45:14 <glx> admins can merge even if it's red
21:51:40 <glx> michi_cc: configure works, good start
22:18:13 <glx> michi_cc: but compile fails :(
22:33:45 <peter1138> Easiest way for devs to get their own stuff in is to have 2 accounts ;p
22:37:59 <peter1138> Right, firing up virtual Debian.
22:39:57 <__ln__> as for the previous subject, being native in some language doesn't seem to imply one would be necessarily good at translating into that language.
22:53:59 <glx> oh you kept WITH_ICU_SORT for MSVC it seems, but removed for MinGW
22:55:06 <peter1138> Hmm, what's the function to get direction between two tiles?
22:55:27 <peter1138> DiagdirBetweenTiles is not it.
22:57:45 <peter1138> Only works if the it's a X or Y is the same
22:58:14 <RedJimi> __ln__: It would seem so. Literary skill and creativity in the destination language seem to play a good part in that. I sure am not great as a Klingonist by either measure.
23:00:37 <glx> ok compiled, let's run it
23:01:09 <michi_cc> glx: "Change: [Win32] Use Uniscribe instead of ICU for text caret handling." should have removed all ICU from the project files unless I missed one.
23:02:44 <glx> still present in at least vs100.vcxproj
23:04:00 <glx> oh probably a missing generate run
23:05:44 <glx> .in is ok, .vcproj is not
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23:12:25 <michi_cc> Yeah, you're right. I think I missed that when rebasing onto the direct music commits.
23:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> typical steam: base game+expansion: 8€, just the expansion: 10€
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