IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-05-26
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09:36:32 <peter1138> TGP sucks for subtropic
09:37:41 <peter1138> But I'm going out on the bike now.
09:41:06 <andythenorth> I probably shouldn't do a troll release of Horse 2
09:41:13 <andythenorth> just 6 metro trains :P
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11:04:05 <andythenorth> back of the Bugatti looks badass
11:04:12 * andythenorth not into cars, but eh
11:04:28 <Wolf01> I still hope it's not only aesthetics
11:04:53 <andythenorth> car mechanisms are boring though no?
11:05:10 <andythenorth> I doubt it has working brakes, the new parts look cosmetic not functional
11:05:46 <Wolf01> Yeah, but making a complex shift and hide it under layers of bricks it's not in the spirit of technic
11:11:35 <Wolf01> I modded the porsche to be able to take off the chassis and see what happens when you use the shift, and that's really cool because it resembles the old 853
11:22:16 <Wolf01> Meh, I have too many games on steam, a lot of categories...
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11:33:41 <Wolf01> \o/ finished to categorize the steam games... until the next bundle purchase
11:37:46 <Wolf01> Now... lego, I need to update the inventory :|
11:39:53 <andythenorth> we'll have to start saying "peter has a branch for that"
11:40:06 <Wolf01> At least they are now public
11:40:40 <Wolf01> Meh, fuck lego and the 50 shades of blue
11:41:11 <Wolf01> Is this medium blue or dark azure?
11:43:04 <Wolf01> They look more weathered... and smaller, less toy-ish
11:46:04 <andythenorth> 45% complete on horse 2
11:47:21 <LordAro> someone should merge some of them
11:49:59 <andythenorth> "Approved: Probably fine"
11:50:11 <nielsm> randumb idea, allow some of the earliest goods cars to be refitted for passengers, but they pay much less, except that 70 years after the car type's introduction they pay more than normal passengers (but are still limited in speed)
11:50:18 <nielsm> not sure if that's possible
11:50:41 <andythenorth> it's possible in newgrf
11:50:44 <andythenorth> why 70 years? o_O
11:51:13 <nielsm> just some random threshold
11:51:19 <nielsm> for when it's considered vintage
11:55:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd advise against putting passengers in goods cars.... for people willl get the wrong ideas about it...
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15:03:33 <peter1138> LordAro, you riding tomorrow or is it gonna rain?
15:21:19 * andythenorth stops playing tanks
15:22:40 <LordAro> peter1138: i hope to be
15:23:23 <peter1138> Hmm, forecast here is now only a little bit of rain.
15:23:26 <Wolf01> Mmmh, train derails continuously always in the same spot
15:27:51 <peter1138> Grr, sticking spacebar :(
15:28:17 <peter1138> Guess I need to take it apart and wash everything.
15:33:45 <andythenorth> or you have a mac
15:33:48 <andythenorth> where it's now a feature
15:34:53 <andythenorth> "If any keys are still unresponsive after you've followed these steps" then congrats on choosing Apple
15:36:34 <andythenorth> mac keyboards used to be bulletproof
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18:23:32 <snail_UES_> hey guys, question about set planning
18:24:03 <snail_UES_> how would you prefer engines of different generations be treated? say a type of engine gets released, then after 10 years it gets slightly improved
18:24:23 <snail_UES_> would you rather have just one ID, with vehicles changing according to year of built
18:25:59 <nielsm> I think I prefer same ID, but it has to be "obvious" that it's a new generation of the vehicle imo
18:27:26 <nielsm> should autosave when getting disconnected because of an error, and because the server is restarting/shutting down, be considered separate cases for the configuration setting?
18:27:56 <andythenorth> snail_UES_: is 10 years an actual case, or just an example?
18:28:37 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: it’s just an example
18:29:00 <snail_UES_> a real case would be the Pacific steamers of my French set
18:29:11 <snail_UES_> they were introduced in ~1910
18:29:22 <andythenorth> Growler reappears as Slug and Phoenix later ^^
18:29:26 <snail_UES_> then a new version, greatly improved, got out in ~1923
18:29:30 <andythenorth> 30 year gap, different IDs
18:29:37 <snail_UES_> then an even better one came out in ~1934
18:29:51 <andythenorth> I wouldn't do 13 year gaps
18:29:54 <snail_UES_> I’m debating whether I should keep them in different IDs
18:30:07 <snail_UES_> could be 1910, 1925 and 1935
18:30:08 <andythenorth> average the stats between two types
18:30:11 <snail_UES_> something like that
18:46:16 <peter1138> You probably won't hit the ID limit.
18:47:18 <peter1138> nielsm, commit message style ;)
18:48:52 <peter1138> Oh, never mind, it's just still building :p
18:49:31 <peter1138> Gotta say I'm confused as to why it's a gui setting.
18:50:12 <peter1138> It's in GUISettings.
18:50:23 <nielsm> well it's a client-only setting
18:50:29 <peter1138> Yeah, I know, the other autosave one is too.
18:50:57 <nielsm> "least inappropriate place"
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19:04:32 <Eddi|zuHause> <snail_UES_> would you rather have just one ID, with vehicles changing according to year of built <-- separate IDs, otherwise people get problems with autoreplace
19:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that basically outweighs any benefits you might construct
19:05:31 <snail_UES_> Eddi|zuHause: yes, autoreplace was what I was thinking about… OTOH having fewer IDs keeps the purchase list cleaner
19:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> handle the purchase list with "retire early" property
19:06:52 <snail_UES_> that’s not always going to be possible, but yeah
19:07:05 <peter1138> Feature request: purchase list variants.
19:07:19 <michi_cc> So, which MIDI PR to merge? #6787, #6779 or #6774?
19:08:30 <michi_cc> LordAro: I'm biased I'm afraid.
19:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> biased is the best random? :p
19:09:11 <LordAro> michi_cc: i did not specify a distribution
19:09:21 <peter1138> Are they all exclusive?
19:09:36 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: #6787 and #6774 should both fulfil your desire for no extra DirectMusic compile farm stuff.
19:09:37 <peter1138> Erm, I've lost my spacebar.
19:10:05 <peter1138> 6774 is already closed?
19:10:20 <michi_cc> peter1138: Yes. It should be obvious why #6774 is exclusive to the others, and #6779 fixes stuff that doesn't apply with 6787 anymore.
19:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "yesterday i came out of the bar stone-cold sober, and then some idiot stepped on my hands!"
19:12:55 <nielsm> the main argument I can think of _against_ #6787 would be "that's a damn huge chunk of code for some music"
19:13:07 <nielsm> but so is my own stuff
19:14:23 <nielsm> if you merge that I'll go and fix up #6775 too :)
19:14:47 <snail_UES_> peter1138: purchase list variants would actually be a cool feature :p
19:14:59 <peter1138> nielsm, hmm, still not saving on server shutdown
19:15:27 <snail_UES_> since my locomotives will come in different flavors (sharing the same ID)… you’ll buy it, and then you can cycle through the variants by refitting to passengers
19:15:38 <nielsm> peter1138 huh odd, I specifically tested that
19:15:40 <snail_UES_> it would be nice to be able to choose the variant upon purchasing
19:15:46 <peter1138> Oh no, not refitting!
19:16:16 <snail_UES_> could you suggest any better alternatives?
19:16:24 <peter1138> Purchase list variants feature ;)
19:16:31 <michi_cc> nielsm: The real argument against #6787 is: Hey, have new and exciting bugs! :p
19:16:53 <peter1138> Something openttd would need to implement but it would be usable.
19:17:32 <snail_UES_> peter1138: :D I would like to ask for it, but OTTD developers have the interesting habit of shooting down 99.9% of any new feature requests :p
19:17:43 <peter1138> snail_UES_, nobody requested it ;)
19:18:06 <peter1138> I like this one, it's simply a gui change, no actual change to any other logic.
19:18:34 <snail_UES_> honestly I would also love to have it. It would unbelievably simplify my life as a newGRF developer
19:20:31 <andythenorth> snail_UES_: ctrl-click :P
19:20:42 <peter1138> andythenorth, stupid
19:20:59 <snail_UES_> what do you mean by ctrl-click?
19:21:13 <andythenorth> I am proposing that ctrl-clicking a vehicle cycles through up to 16 variants
19:21:32 <andythenorth> apparently the correct way is some extension of cargo subtypes :P
19:21:42 <andythenorth> despite that choosing menu items in ottd is horrible :P
19:21:51 <snail_UES_> yes, cargo subtypes is the way I’m handling it now
19:21:59 <andythenorth> cargo subtypes are appalling
19:22:12 <snail_UES_> you buy the engine, then refit it to “0 passengers” choosing a variant other than default
19:22:28 <peter1138> That's why new feature
19:22:42 <snail_UES_> I agree it’s not great, but currently there’s no alternative
19:25:21 <peter1138> Hmm, wonder if we already have a suitable icon.
19:27:26 <snail_UES_> also, there should be a way in the code to figure out the engine’s current variant (I’m using userbits now)
19:27:40 <snail_UES_> coz some specs, attachment rules etc. would change according to the variants
19:28:01 <peter1138> because it's a separate engine id.
19:28:25 <snail_UES_> oh… so you mean to consolidate different engine IDs in the purchase list?
19:28:37 <peter1138> with ability to select between them
19:28:45 <snail_UES_> I see your idea… that would be nice
19:28:53 <peter1138> no messing with refit
19:28:57 <snail_UES_> would make life even easier as you wouldn’t have to check for userbits
19:29:02 <peter1138> and you can use autoreplace to upgrade
19:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like the "variants" to be detectable from the articulated callback, so i could have different amounts of articulated parts
19:30:17 <peter1138> if it's a different engine id, you can detect that, no?
19:30:26 <snail_UES_> if they were different IDs, you can detect anything
19:30:41 <snail_UES_> in principle they could even have a different number of articulated parts
19:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd also like a way to synchronize introduction dates
19:32:25 <peter1138> Hmm, separate but similar feature.
19:32:38 <snail_UES_> peter1138: so more than “purchase list variants”, this would be a way to group separate IDs in the purchase list
19:33:07 <snail_UES_> and it would require to add something to the GUI in order to do this
19:33:09 <peter1138> I was thinking of only showing one in the list, and then expand when you view it
19:33:27 <snail_UES_> yeah, one that could be a placeholder
19:33:41 <peter1138> Well, it would be the 'first' one
19:34:17 <peter1138> OpenTTD can handle making the user aware of it. NewGRF-wise it's just a vehicle that is very similar.
19:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> what if i want my groups to be "all express steam engines", "all freight steam engines", etc.?
19:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the purchase list entry would then maybe have to be a "virtual" vehicle
19:35:40 <peter1138> It's engine variants, not groups.
19:38:14 <andythenorth> oh yeah that was an idea
19:38:22 <andythenorth> multiple engine IDs, one menu option
19:38:43 <andythenorth> just use the + disclosure thing peter1138 ?
19:40:10 <andythenorth> there needs to be some 'group' thing as well, just a value
19:41:37 <andythenorth> dword is enough :P
19:43:14 <snail_UES_> peter1138: my initial idea was to have engine variants sharing the same ID
19:43:35 <snail_UES_> since you’re proposing them not to share the same ID, this might as well be groups?
19:44:41 <Wolf01> Group them by name + variant extension
19:45:56 <peter1138> Grouping conflicts with sorting & filtering a bit.
19:47:10 <Wolf01> First filter, then group, then sort
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19:52:16 <peter1138> Sounds different to variants though. Hmm.
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19:57:02 <peter1138> Is cross-NewGRF variant/grouping good/bad?
19:57:22 <snail_UES_> peter1138: I was thinking about it only for my vehicles...
19:57:32 <snail_UES_> cross-newGRF would mean we’d need to introduce standards
19:57:37 <snail_UES_> and this can be a can of worms :)
20:03:16 <andythenorth> there would be some great forum threads
20:03:26 <andythenorth> "New Groups schema"
20:03:35 <andythenorth> "Please tell me which groups schema is correct"
20:03:47 <andythenorth> and someone would rage quit
20:04:00 <andythenorth> peter1138: my intention would be that the group is on the vehicle name
20:04:17 <peter1138> For this reason, I'm using Engine IDs instead of labels. It's kinda arbitrary, but Engine IDs are already GRF-local.
20:04:19 <andythenorth> they would all share a common string, and could have additional substrings maybe?
20:07:23 <peter1138> 18:31 < Eddi|zuHause> i'd also like a way to synchronize introduction dates
20:07:34 <peter1138> Although I've not tested it.
20:14:10 <andythenorth> I'll need to patch nml for groups eh? :P
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20:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> what does "NewVehicleAvailable(es)" do?
20:22:27 <peter1138> It introductes it :p
20:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause> btu does that spawn a separate prototype offer?
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20:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> hey, i finally set my wallclock forward 1 hour!
20:29:45 <snail_UES_> peter1138: a set of variants (or “group”) should be created within a newGRF… using only internal IDs
20:29:53 <snail_UES_> otherwise it’s a mess
20:30:27 <snail_UES_> each set of variants could have a name, like a placeholder, and then each single variant would have the proper ID’s name
20:47:56 <andythenorth> what if you want substrings for names? o_O
20:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you can handle substrings within nml, the game doesn't need to know about them
20:57:42 <Eddi|zuHause> (they must be static, though)
20:59:33 <andythenorth> how would that work?
20:59:57 <andythenorth> all vehicles in the group share the same name
21:04:30 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: no, because they’re different IDs
21:04:49 <andythenorth> well what's shown in the buy menu then? o_O
21:05:02 <andythenorth> there has to be a string for the group
21:05:11 <andythenorth> and making a new string for it is silly
21:08:47 <snail_UES_> it could either be a placeholder, or it could be the name of the 1st ID sharing that group
21:09:23 <snail_UES_> the newGRF developer would choose which IDs would share the same groups, and sort them accordingly...
21:09:47 <andythenorth> not if it's an action 0 prop ;)
21:09:53 <andythenorth> there's no way to specificy sort order
21:10:07 <snail_UES_> order by engine ID? after all it’s just a number
21:10:14 <andythenorth> seems reasonable
21:10:24 <snail_UES_> or a group could have “name” as a property
21:10:44 <snail_UES_> a group could be, “Pacific type (Steam)”
21:10:47 <andythenorth> position = group ID :P
21:11:01 <snail_UES_> and each IDs could be: “Pacific livery A” … “Pacific livery B” etc
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21:38:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't know how peter1138 intended it, but it sounded like you define one vehicle as the "master", and all others as "share the same buy menu entry as $ID"
21:39:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i was suggesting that this "master" vehicle could somehow be a "virtual" one, i.e. one that only appears in the buy menu, but cannot be bought
21:42:23 <V453000> WOW, story: 1. on NUTS 0.7.8 I started adding cargoes for FIRS2 compatibility. 2. I realized that NUTS has 666 wagon classes and stopped midway through, finding it too much work. 3. I needed to make a new version of NUTS with some BRIX relation, 4. I got rid of the unfinished cargo support, 5. I did some things and released 0.7.9, 6. I made myself actually forget that I got rid of the unfinished cargo support and literally believed that I ca
21:42:37 <V453000> 7. I found out that I actually can
21:42:48 <snail_UES_> Eddi|zuHause: I like your idea
21:43:56 <snail_UES_> like putting a placeholder as the group definition, and then the GUI would allow you to choose which variant you’d actually buy
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