IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-05-23
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00:49:37 <Thedarkb-X40> What year do oil rigs start appearing/
00:49:48 <Thedarkb-X40> I know it's in the 70s/80s, but like, when exactly?
00:55:55 <Thedarkb-X40> V453000, I'm an irritable little fuck. :P
00:57:05 <Thedarkb-X40> FIRS might be postponing them or something??
00:59:26 <Thedarkb-X40> Nah, I just have 4 on the map that I hadn't seen yet
01:04:27 <Supercheese> it might be different
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08:26:29 <peter1138> Ah yes, let's look.
08:26:59 <peter1138> I did request that one ;)
08:27:21 <peter1138> Oh yeah, projects :S
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08:59:34 <andythenorth> Pikka: such sprites? o_O
09:06:57 <andythenorth> which one is the best?
09:10:44 <Pikka> must be the 37, which I haven't done yet
09:10:55 <andythenorth> I have to draw three 37s
09:11:07 <Pikka> do people like the running sounds in UKRS2, or are they just annoying?
09:11:48 <andythenorth> can't remember :)
09:12:45 <Pikka> I'm not sure if I like them, or if they're just annoying.
09:13:46 <andythenorth> I'd leave them out
09:14:03 <andythenorth> but I tend to mute sounds anyway
09:14:09 <andythenorth> due to the crossing bells problem
09:18:10 <andythenorth> should I industry sounds in FIRS?
09:21:44 <Pikka> only if they're subtle and constant-ish.
09:22:08 <Pikka> the default TTD industry sounds are almost worse than the crossing bells
09:22:18 <andythenorth> the sawmill is the other reason I mute sounds :P
09:22:37 <andythenorth> and then what do industries really sound like anyway?
09:23:57 <Pikka> I remember all the complaints I got about random explosion sounds from quarries :D
09:35:03 <V453000> sounds in UKRS2 felt quite weird to me Pikka, but that might be just because the rest of the game is mostly silent
09:48:50 <andythenorth> so 64 cargos then
09:49:05 <andythenorth> Pikka: ^ multiple regearing cargos? o_O
10:15:22 <peter1138> 64 cargos are impossible!
10:19:46 <peter1138> To go beyond 64 I need to figure out how to save that bitsit type.
10:27:43 <peter1138> As it is, 64 types is probably shitty on 32 bit computers.
10:28:15 <andythenorth> 'we dropped 32 bit'
10:42:25 <peter1138> TrueBrain, why can't DorpsGek_GH chat here? It's not particularly spammy.
10:43:31 <peter1138> Maybe it was when it was all being set up but it's died down a bit now.
11:05:04 <peter1138> Hmm, although it hasn't twigged yet.
11:19:42 <peter1138> andythenorth, so...
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11:42:38 <andythenorth> we need notifications in the channel :P
11:43:03 <andythenorth> also I have too many openttd shells :P
11:43:11 <peter1138> I mean, the notice channel didn't get a notification either.
11:43:43 <andythenorth> oh hang on, that sse4 blitter is set in my config :P
11:46:09 <peter1138> It'll be no different I bet ;p
11:46:36 <andythenorth> I think frosch tried to explain to me that the speedup I saw was due to the likely/unlikely patch
11:47:00 <peter1138> That affects pipelining I guess.
11:48:12 <LordAro> that's a railtype, right?
11:48:22 <peter1138> Not yet, we don't have enough types.
11:50:40 <andythenorth> nope SSE is roughly twice as fast as 1.8.0-RC1 for a simple test
11:51:25 <andythenorth> trains going round a loop take 11s in 1.8.0-RC1 on FFWD, full animation
11:51:33 <andythenorth> 5s in latest trunk
11:51:59 <peter1138> Oh, my head fell off.
11:52:09 <peter1138> Ah, it's over there.
11:58:42 <andythenorth> so in a bigger game, full animation is still noticeably slower
11:58:48 <andythenorth> but it's markedly better
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12:01:21 <peter1138> Don't worry, we'll slow it all down again with 64 railtypes.
12:07:35 <peter1138> That's an extra 2GB!
12:09:55 <peter1138> Just for railtypes!
12:10:32 <peter1138> Let's resurrect that.
12:11:19 <peter1138> It's almost brilliant.
12:11:44 <andythenorth> and offsets into them?
12:11:56 <V453000> I remember seeing that video :)
12:11:58 <andythenorth> or one giant wrap around?
12:12:08 <peter1138> Don't know how it works.
12:12:13 <__ln__> wat, there's actually code for underground rails
12:12:31 <peter1138> It is at least post-c++.
12:12:37 <andythenorth> we could do 3D with the current map no?
12:13:01 <andythenorth> slice a 512x512 into 4 layers of 256x256
12:13:01 <peter1138> I'm not sure how it extends the map.
12:13:10 <peter1138> Oh,well, not really :S
12:13:36 <andythenorth> "it's just a drawing problem"
12:13:44 <peter1138> BUT I CAN'T BUILD THIS SPAGHETTI JUNCTION
12:13:55 <andythenorth> oh you can't connect between layers in my plan :)
12:14:02 <andythenorth> everything is planar
12:15:51 <peter1138> Hmm, TileIndex becomes 64 bit with this patch. So maybe you aren't far off :p
12:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking maybe 1 underground layer and one above ground layer, that follow the landscaping, and the rest is still done by ordinary wormhole tunnels?
12:42:58 <peter1138> Limitation disturbs me very sprites.
12:44:01 <Sacro> Goes throw out limitation?
12:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> somebody set up us the bomb
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13:05:13 <__ln__> andythenorth: surely you mean °, not º
13:05:47 <andythenorth> I just haven't bothered to learn the key combo for deg
13:05:59 <andythenorth> and someone here always corrects it :P
13:07:11 <__ln__> do you regularly write text in spanish, or why do you have º in the first place?
13:13:09 <peter1138> andythenorth, yeah, that thread is why I dug up SmatZ's stuff.
13:13:50 <andythenorth> just do 90 deg with a new building tool :P
13:14:02 <peter1138> acs121 is definitely hyping up the NEW MAP ARRAY
13:14:04 <andythenorth> oh, we'd need both start and end tiles?
13:14:46 <andythenorth> acs121 is a remarkable source of nearly-facts
13:14:53 <andythenorth> or as I call them, 'wrongs'
14:36:23 <andythenorth> should I do a GWR railcar with the silly slopes?
14:36:30 <andythenorth> or make a fake flat face one?
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14:46:33 <peter1138> Made a mug of tea, burnt mouth :(
14:50:38 <peter1138> Was it by swallowing?
15:01:21 <andythenorth> don't want to draw bloody slopes :)
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15:03:44 <peter1138> Draw vehicles ON slopes!
15:06:58 * andythenorth having war with flies
15:08:38 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: supermop was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 1 day, 8 hours, 45 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <supermop> yo
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15:28:43 <Pikka> the fancy noses are fancy though
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15:30:29 <andythenorth> Horse add on can do a banana
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18:26:28 <peter1138> What else I have patches for...
18:28:21 <andythenorth> and Alberth is here, so the window might get fixed
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18:30:52 <nielsm> never really got any feedback on it at all
18:31:40 <andythenorth> nielsm: that's 'utilisation'? o_O
18:31:45 <andythenorth> isn't that on groups now?
18:31:58 <nielsm> I don't think it's quite the same thing
18:32:14 <nielsm> I didn't see anything that measured distance travelled and kept statistics on it
18:32:32 <andythenorth> I think the groups thing is just load %?
18:32:39 <andythenorth> which confused people here
18:32:42 <nielsm> I think "utilisation" on a group is mostly just the average load percentage of the vehicles
18:33:11 <nielsm> this one is actually how much of the time throughout a year the vehicle has run fully loaded, more or less
18:33:32 <andythenorth> average load % should always be ~40% or ~100% (bi-directional cargo) so it's a useless number :)
18:33:35 <nielsm> and also measures (or can measure) how much the vehicle is sitting idle
18:34:10 <nielsm> penalizing vehicles waiting for full load in a station without receiving cargo
18:34:28 <nielsm> meaning if you have too many vehicles on a route, the total efficiency drops
18:34:31 <andythenorth> yeah this sounds like actual utilisation
18:35:03 <andythenorth> miles travelled / cargo ton miles travelled
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18:36:33 <andythenorth> peter1138: there's some kind of "NRT" branch kicking around
18:36:43 <andythenorth> I think it adds 64 road and tram types to ottd
18:38:04 <peter1138> I already did that, you know./
18:38:34 <andythenorth> I didn't see it in OpenTTD pull requests :)
18:42:00 <peter1138> I wouldn't dare to assume I'd be allowed to 2 bytes the map array :p
18:45:40 <andythenorth> pull request finds out
18:45:46 <andythenorth> roll the dice, might come up 6
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18:47:55 <nielsm> hmm I hope I remember how to do this rebase onto thing
18:49:40 <andythenorth> shame I can't ctrl-click articulated vehicles :P
18:50:05 * andythenorth thinks it should be an available option
18:50:30 <LordAro> nielsm: rebase onto? you shouldn't need that unless it's a branch for the old git repo
18:51:02 <peter1138> I can't ctrl-click your player face
18:51:09 <nielsm> yes it's from the old repo :)
18:51:14 <peter1138> We should allow that.
18:51:22 <peter1138> Then you could have the earring on either side.
18:51:35 <andythenorth> I can ctrl-click the player face
18:51:38 <andythenorth> is your ottd broken?
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18:54:17 <nielsm> btw what's the common practice for developing patches that need to bump savegame version?
18:54:46 <peter1138> I recommend bumping the version.
19:01:26 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> roll the dice, might come up 6 <- 20, natural critical hit, throw again to confirm
19:13:12 <peter1138> When you look at landscape_grid.html, there's a lot of unused bits...
19:13:23 <peter1138> Maybe we can use the unused bits from over tile types.
19:13:30 <Wolf01> Yeah, one here, one there
19:14:29 <Wolf01> We might need to defrag it soon or later
19:18:36 <Wolf01> If we remove trees from saves could we add 64 roadtypes? :P
19:25:54 <peter1138> Why do you need subposition instead of tiles?
19:26:05 <andythenorth> we do need treetypes
19:26:10 <andythenorth> I can't remember why
19:26:15 <andythenorth> but I wrote a spec somewhere
19:26:43 <nielsm> peter1138: because I want to record the actual distance traveled, without rounding errors
19:27:09 <peter1138> Tiles is the actual distance travelled.
19:27:18 <nielsm> (this was the most immediate way I found to calculate it)
19:27:57 <andythenorth> and something about "- compression of trees in map (savegame)"
19:28:37 <peter1138> andythenorth, well, that's just an issue of random data. It doesn't compress very well.
19:28:54 <andythenorth> the idea was newgrf trees
19:29:22 <andythenorth> with a (cached result) varaction 2 chain to determine which sprites to show
19:29:34 <andythenorth> then it's just 'tree' and some random bits on the tile
19:29:57 <andythenorth> and trees could have a periodic processing cb, to handle seasonal / random changes
19:30:32 <andythenorth> naturally it could also then be abused for randomly planted 'object' sprites :D
19:31:32 <nielsm> trees that at some point in their lifecycle explode and destroy everything around them, leaving a crater
19:31:47 <nielsm> if you don't find and cut them down ahead of time
19:32:03 <andythenorth> I hadn't allowed for that in the spec :P
19:32:14 <andythenorth> but periodic forest fires should be possible :P
19:51:56 <Wolf01> Are AWS down? DDoS? I can't reach half of the interwebz
19:55:41 <Wolf01> That's why I asked, I can't reach that page
19:56:27 <Wolf01> I suspect my provider is broken
19:57:05 <Wolf01> Some sites work like a charm, full speed, other sites respond after minutes, other ones are literally unreachable
20:01:16 <andythenorth> "everything is awesome"
20:02:55 <Wolf01> I wonder if they are able to ruin it
20:19:02 <nielsm> tried a different dns provider?
20:29:48 <LANJesus> oh i'm blind. andythenorth already linked : (
20:30:44 <andythenorth> metro trains lower height than normal trains? o_O
20:38:24 <Wolf01> nielsm, yes, I'm using 3 different dns services, the problem is the route itself somewhere near the backbone which usually has problems
20:42:49 <andythenorth> so ctrl-clicking on any vehicle in an articulated consist would flip the bit on the lead vehicle
20:43:03 <andythenorth> only allowed if a flag is set
20:43:14 <andythenorth> newgrf has to handle reversing the vehicle, ottd won't do
20:43:26 <andythenorth> sounds good eh? o_O
21:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but should it flip the order of the articulated parts?
21:07:01 <andythenorth> the author has to handle all that via cb36
21:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause> all applications of flipping would be easier if it did
21:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> all that i have in mind
21:07:31 <andythenorth> but then the consist would be invalid :P
21:07:55 <andythenorth> because some properties aren't valid for trailing parts
21:08:09 <andythenorth> and the lead part would be moved to last position
21:09:46 <andythenorth> hmm, cb36 for that too :P
21:09:52 <andythenorth> make author handle it
21:10:04 <Eddi|zuHause> why can't the last vehicle be the "lead" in that case?
21:12:15 <frosch123> i think we should also newgrf to freely map functions to middle and right mouse button
21:12:38 <frosch123> just to annoy andy :)
21:13:55 <TrueBrain> [10:42] <peter1138> TrueBrain, why can't DorpsGek_GH chat here? It's not particularly spammy. <- it needs the channel to be without +nt .. which is not really ideal in any sorts or form; soon this will be solved thou .. if I can find the time :D
21:14:01 <TrueBrain> (doing your garden takes more time than expected :D)
21:14:20 <andythenorth> also surprisingly satisfying
21:14:57 <andythenorth> frosch123: is that because I have no mouse buttons? :(
21:23:56 <andythenorth> so is peter1138 allowed to add 2 bytes to the map array then? o_O
21:24:09 <andythenorth> I'm sure we'll all learn something from it ;)
21:26:47 <frosch123> i don't mind more map, i would make it a uint16 though
21:27:15 <frosch123> it's easier to split a uint16 into bits than to combine multiple bytes into something bigger
21:31:39 <LordAro> TrueBrain: would -nt be such a bad thing?
21:34:42 <frosch123> i think tb wants a custom bot anyway :)
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21:37:50 <Eddi|zuHause> somehow quitting steam throws X into a 100% CPU loop
21:38:10 <andythenorth> computing is great
21:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that happens since the last update, as far as i can tell
22:15:43 <michi_cc> Anybody here who can read arabic or hebrew? Or who can tell/show me how OpenTTD text should look like?
22:16:25 <nielsm> uh I think I can somewhat tell if it "looks right", but don't actually know the languages
22:17:20 <nielsm> (I've worked a bit with international text rendering in a different context)
22:20:24 <nielsm> at least with regards to placement of punctuation and interspersed LTR/RTL
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22:21:25 <nielsm> except for the graphics and sound set description texts, those seem to use an incorrect base flow direction
22:23:27 <michi_cc> Hmm, yeah, that does seem right. Except that hebrew.txt explicitly specifies ##textdir rtl
22:23:35 <nielsm> second is actually correct
22:24:13 <nielsm> comparing the window title to how a text editor with correct bidi handling displays STR_SETTINGS_MENU_GAME_OPTIONS
22:24:47 <nielsm> but it still does mixed-direction content wrong
22:25:24 <nielsm> i.e. the (GBP) in the currency dropdown
22:26:04 <nielsm> and the music set description which is untranslated ought to use LTR as base text direction
22:26:30 <nielsm> (but it gets handled as RTL so the period is placed wrong)
22:27:10 <nielsm> possibly some of those things are best fixed by just inserting unicode directional marks in the strings to get them right
22:27:48 <michi_cc> Well, untranslated is something that is long lost by the time the string goes through the layout phase.
22:28:42 <nielsm> could the translation reader maybe prepend an LTR mark if it picks an untranslated string when the selected language is RTL?
22:28:55 <nielsm> or would that break untold numbers of things? :)
22:29:13 <michi_cc> The currency thing might actually simply be from the lang file, as that contains the (GBP) first in the string.
22:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so the langfile needs the LTR mark there?
22:29:43 <michi_cc> BTW, hebrew_1 is the straight ICU output (except with exceptions suppressed because otherwise it would fail half the time).
22:30:16 <michi_cc> So maybe the translation might also have been fudged to cause ICU to output what is wanted.
22:31:10 <nielsm> have to ask the translators
22:33:10 <nielsm> how do the strings for those two last currencies render?
22:34:29 <nielsm> and on a second thought, prepending LTR marks to untranslated strings during loading is going to break things, when things get combined in the formatting stuff
22:35:19 <nielsm> (what should it do if an untranslated string is glued into the middle of a translated one? or vice versa?)
22:38:08 <michi_cc> The string should probably be framed by LRO (or LRE, or LRI, or FSI (why do there have to be so many...)) and PDF/PDI
22:41:22 <nielsm> I still think it's going to break, better to leave it simple and just accept that incomplete translations will result in potentially broken bidi
22:45:01 <Kilm> Quick question, possibly stupid, but I can't see the answer - the function that lets you see what area a path signal covers.. how do i get that to show? I'm trying very hard to understand this black magic stuff.
22:46:04 <nielsm> it's in the advanced settings somewhere
22:46:27 <nielsm> "Show path reservations for tracks"
22:49:53 <Kilm> It's like suddenly understand physics
22:51:37 <nielsm> next go spend a few days with SimSig
22:54:48 <nielsm> it's a very good teaching experience!
22:55:28 <nielsm> (and will probably give some more appreciation for the causes of train delays in real life)
22:59:21 <Kilm> I've been away from TT for over a decade, ever since I lost the save of a game I'd been playing for about nine years. It's amazing how quickly it comes back.
22:59:28 <Kilm> Though I've just realised the value of 'full load' for ratings increases.
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23:09:21 <Kilm> I take it the trick with Open TTD is not to really care about time?
23:09:36 <Kilm> I'm trying to understand the path and station loading stuff, and it's taking a year for a train to fully load.
23:09:47 <Kilm> So it's still making £20k profit a year, but it's only getting one run a year in.
23:09:55 <peter1138> frosch123, re uint16, I suppose so. It does mean you need more SB/GB if previously you just accessed the full byte.
23:10:08 <LordAro> Kilm: longer routes are in general more profitable
23:10:27 <peter1138> frosch123, I did actually do it as uint16 first but changed it! ;)
23:10:41 <LordAro> also, depending how you measure tiles are ~40m in length or a few hundred km
23:12:32 <Kilm> Yeah LordAro, I'm just trying to figure out the basics a bit more. So to make two trains of seven length wait for full cargo of coal, each one takes a year to fill but brings in £20k. If I do 'if available' then they only make £8k each.
23:12:43 <Kilm> That's one question sorted.
23:14:28 <nielsm> if you want to optimize for company rating score, you definitely want trains to make more than 1 delivery a year on average
23:23:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Kilm: the key part to optimize here is that the station is never empty, always a train loading. otherwise the rating goes down, and you get less cargo to transport
23:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> only then you gradually tune the length of the train vs. amount of trains, so you have less time wasted loading, while not overloading your network
23:48:01 <Kilm> So rather than having seven carriages sat loading for a year, trim it to for example, four and see how it works out in time vs profit
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