IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-05-22
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00:40:13 <peter1138> So there's now a patch somewhere for 64 cargo types ;p
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01:56:35 <pjpe> what does foobar's tram tracks do over vanilla tram tracks?
01:56:52 <pjpe> didn't see much of a difference trying it out, and don't know if i picked it up a decade ago when things were different or not
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06:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: if the tram track grf is more than a year old, it's visual only, it doesn't "do" anything different. and any non-visual stuff only works in the "NRT" branch, that hasn't been merged yet as fas as i am informed
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09:15:13 <andythenorth> well that wrecks FIRS :o
09:18:50 <peter1138> You'll never know when to stop!
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09:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> for (CargoID i = 0; i < num_cargo; i++) { <-- does that break if num_cargo is changed mid-game?
09:31:18 <Eddi|zuHause> ah no, it's in saveload code
09:33:48 <andythenorth> well FIRS Extreme just got 'interesting'
09:34:06 <andythenorth> time to start FIRS v4
09:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but with 64 cargos you now need 128 industries (one producer and one consumer each) :p
09:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> how typical... sometimes the keyboad slips away from me, and when i try to grab it, i press + and enter on numpad
09:46:11 <andythenorth> *lots* of cargos is kind of counter for FIRS Extreme
09:46:26 <andythenorth> one of the key points of Extreme seems to be 'everything goes everywhere'
09:46:37 <andythenorth> the graph for some cargos have a lot of nodes
09:46:56 <andythenorth> more cargos => fewer nodes per cargo
09:51:17 <andythenorth> V453000: NEW INDUSTRY SET
09:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> you could just try to load both FIRS and YETI at the same time :p
09:53:38 <V453000> I'm waiting for the implementation :?
09:57:58 <andythenorth> not even sure I can think of 64 cargos
10:02:10 <V453000> meanwhile I'm making an excessively complicated rendering for treinz :D
10:10:27 <peter1138> See, there's absolutely no reason to add that commit ;p
10:12:21 <andythenorth> there's absolutely no reason to recreate a game from 1994 :P
10:12:52 <andythenorth> peter1138: GarryG will make use of 64
10:14:54 <peter1138> Wait, 68 cargo types? Shit.
10:15:00 <peter1138> Is there a uint128_t? :p
10:15:46 <andythenorth> I *hate* drawing cargo icons
10:16:03 <peter1138> Take generic pile of minerals -> recolour -> done.
10:16:17 <V453000> yeah cargo icons are fucking tough
10:16:21 <V453000> what is that, 8x8px max?
10:16:22 <andythenorth> not so much for 'vehicle parts'
10:16:38 <peter1138> 32x32, it's like an icon.
10:16:48 <peter1138> Except nobody uses 4x gui zoom. Except andythenorth.
10:16:55 <andythenorth> it's animated :P
10:17:04 <andythenorth> but not for me, because full animation is broken
10:17:26 <andythenorth> my computer is broken for full animation
10:17:33 <V453000> gui zoom is probably only for wtf-high-dpi displays, where it perceptively is as small as 8x8 on a normal display :P
10:17:41 <andythenorth> 2x GUI zoom is mandatory :P
10:17:41 <peter1138> 32bpp-optimized doesn't support it, but there are 32bpp blitters that support animation.
10:18:00 <andythenorth> it's a trade off
10:18:04 <andythenorth> I can have animation, or frame rate
10:18:18 <peter1138> 32bpp-sse4-anim is the one to use on a relatively not-ancient PC.
10:19:34 <peter1138> Hmm, we only auto-switch to 32bpp-anim.
10:19:43 <peter1138> Perhaps we should try 32bpp-sse4-anim first.
10:19:50 * andythenorth wonders how to set blitter
10:19:56 <andythenorth> wiki says "-b32bpp-sse4-anim"
10:20:00 <andythenorth> but that doesn't work
10:20:15 <V453000> 32bpp-sse4-anim seems to work for me
10:20:30 <peter1138> If it's a core2duo it won't work.
10:20:37 <peter1138> 32bpp-anim should though.
10:22:49 <andythenorth> but still failing
10:29:28 <peter1138> What does it look like? :P
10:29:49 <andythenorth> looks fine, but frame rate is lower
10:29:59 <andythenorth> and FFWD is very sluggish/jerky
10:30:05 <peter1138> Oh. THought you said full animation is broken?
10:30:14 <andythenorth> no my computer is broken for full animation
10:30:48 <peter1138> Is it just that it is slower?
10:31:18 <peter1138> You know that's totally normal?
10:31:44 <andythenorth> it changed in hardware or software 4-5 years ago
10:31:56 <andythenorth> I've been given various explanations
10:32:08 <andythenorth> maybe Apple dropped legacy quickdraw APIs
10:32:22 <andythenorth> or something changed in CPU bandwidth
10:32:28 <peter1138> 8bpp was faster because openttd didn't have to deal with it.
10:33:06 <peter1138> But animation with 32bpp is always slower.
10:33:33 <andythenorth> I was told to use 32bpp because it's faster
10:33:47 <andythenorth> it's a classic FUD situation :)
10:34:09 <peter1138> I'm probably wrong ;-)
10:34:19 <peter1138> I remember running OpenTTD in XGA mode. That was SUPERFAST.
10:34:26 <peter1138> Only issue is you needed to run the game as root. Hah
10:34:35 <peter1138> That actually switched X11 to 8bpp mode.
10:34:50 <peter1138> That was in the days I ran 800x600 on a CRT though.
10:35:41 <peter1138> I'm hopeful that michi_cc's OpenGL patch can be revived (using modern OpenGL where feasible) as this should allow palette animation to be done by the GPU.
10:36:05 <andythenorth> the SSE2 patch from JGR is about 10% faster
10:36:52 <andythenorth> judged by timing trains going round in a circle :P
10:38:29 <peter1138> Ok. So we should add it. It's also usable for older CPUs.
10:38:40 <peter1138> We should also ditch the -simple blitters, probably.
10:38:58 <peter1138> Hmm, I don't think my RGB company colours patch works with these SSE blitters though.
10:39:28 <peter1138> Hmm, actually why wouldn't it? It's just a palette. I've forgotten how it works :-)
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11:10:54 <peter1138> LordAro, direct graphics access. It literally let you write directly to the video frame buffer.
11:11:30 <peter1138> It's no longer supported since modern graphics cards don't expose that stuff any more, due to the memory sizes involved.
11:12:15 <peter1138> It switched X11 to 8bpp, so palette animation was actual palette animation.
11:12:29 <peter1138> So zero performance cost.
11:13:34 <peter1138> "The graphics component of XFree86-DGA is not supported because it requires a CPU mapping of framebuffer memory. As graphics cards ship with increasing quantities of video memory, the NVIDIA X driver has had to switch to a more dynamic memory mapping scheme that is incompatible with DGA. Furthermore, DGA does not cooperate with other graphics rendering libraries such as Xlib and OpenGL because it
11:13:40 <peter1138> accesses GPU resources directly."
11:18:11 <peter1138> Speaking of progress... I keep buying clothes in medium... This is odd.
11:19:54 <peter1138> One of my cycling tops is XXXL. It's rather long and loose now. Just about okay for MTBing, but I should probably ditch it.
11:21:32 <V453000> is that nvidia 10xx series or nvidia titan X series drivers?
11:22:27 <peter1138> But isn't the driver the same for them?
11:23:09 <V453000> at least on their driver site they are different, and there were no titan x drivers for a while which would be compatible with linux
11:23:26 <peter1138> I still have a 670 :(
11:23:35 <peter1138> It's a bit shit for VR but passable.
11:25:27 <V453000> well a gpu is my main rendering thing so... :)
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12:34:15 <andythenorth> wonder if an eGPU can drive my laptop screen :P
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13:59:09 <andythenorth> GPU in a box, with thunderbolt cables
13:59:52 <peter1138> Let's look at issues.
14:01:59 <peter1138> #986 ... kinda old.
14:14:07 <__ln__> i think i have a solution for #4449, but dunno about peter's idea of a tristate toggle.
14:19:08 <andythenorth> I wanted to close 6677 but TB said no, it's a valid bug
14:19:50 <peter1138> Does anyone use actual-fullscreen these days?
14:20:08 <andythenorth> sample size: 1; results 100% no-one
14:24:38 <andythenorth> child #1 uses fullscreen
14:24:58 <andythenorth> mostly because it hides the endless popups about google products trying to update themselves
14:25:18 <andythenorth> he has a locked down account with limited network access
14:25:32 <peter1138> I use windowed mode, cos multiple screens.
14:25:34 <andythenorth> which triggers constant warnings about google updaters that I can't suppress
14:25:46 <andythenorth> I hate modern computing :|
14:25:54 <__ln__> despite darkvater's recent reappearance, is it time to re-evaluate the Won't implement of #69?
14:26:24 <peter1138> Hurr hurr hurr you said 69
14:27:03 <andythenorth> did I just stray into a Beavis & Butthead episode :o
14:28:49 <__ln__> peter1138: you won't re-evaluate or you won't implement?
14:29:20 <peter1138> Unless it was different in original TTD.
14:29:49 * andythenorth evaluates sitting outside in the sun
14:30:12 <peter1138> Then you don't have to consider 64 cargo types.
14:31:08 <andythenorth> laptops work outside :P
14:31:21 <peter1138> Yup, only one earring in TTD.
14:33:16 <__ln__> That's right. Well, that's one way to be different.
14:34:44 <__ln__> Also I noticed the face generation algorithm doesn't match requirements of the 2010s. There are only caucasian and african american faces.
14:35:24 <peter1138> Who even bothers to look at the face? :S
14:39:02 <andythenorth> I am too busy looking at trains
14:39:30 <andythenorth> I thought there was a ticket about the face diversity somewhere
14:39:57 <peter1138> Thing is, it is the way it is because these are graphics in the original base set.
14:40:25 <peter1138> And it's so inconsequential to gameplay, there's no need to change it.
14:40:29 <andythenorth> pixel-art for specific races is a potential minefield
14:40:32 <andythenorth> I wouldn't touch it :P
14:40:34 <peter1138> Even the "advanced" editor is pointless.
14:40:58 <V453000> I actually wanted to make a YETI faces replacement
14:41:06 <V453000> but yeah I wanted to make many things
14:41:10 <peter1138> It's not like you've got a set of photographs and you can just add more, or edit the existing ones.
14:41:27 <peter1138> It's built up out of parts like an identifit.
14:41:30 <andythenorth> I just try to make Burt Reynolds
14:41:45 <andythenorth> it's basically that kids game 'Guess Who' or so
14:41:52 <andythenorth> which has been updated for diversity
14:41:58 <andythenorth> but eh, they have resources to do that
14:48:21 <V453000> doesn't ttd have all them races?
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14:49:27 <andythenorth> it has 'european' and 'african'
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14:50:05 <andythenorth> so for example, no east asian, no south asian
14:50:17 <andythenorth> no native american, inuits etc
14:51:04 <andythenorth> I can't see us fixing that, it's work, and doing it wrong is stupid and offensive
14:57:07 <andythenorth> means, e.g. my kids can't make a face that looks like them
14:57:13 <andythenorth> I'm not sure they care right now
14:58:04 <__ln__> there are also only two genders to choose from in the dialog
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14:58:31 <andythenorth> just swap it all to lego-people style :P
14:58:53 <__ln__> is that offensive towards lego-people?
14:59:16 <andythenorth> hmm chin 1 has some kind of bug
14:59:26 <andythenorth> in 'male, european'
15:01:09 <andythenorth> it's out of place I think
15:01:16 <andythenorth> it's also the same as the female chin
15:01:25 <andythenorth> that might be intended
15:01:28 <peter1138> Quick, let's pull the game. Literally unplayable.
15:01:44 <FLHerne> Can the face sprites be replaced by NewGRF?
15:01:53 <FLHerne> I don't suppose the labels can
15:02:04 <peter1138> Yes, any sprite can be replaced.
15:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a way for NewGRF to change original TTD strings, but they have to be whitelisted and mapped to OTTD strings
15:03:19 <FLHerne> I was thinking you could do it with a static newgrf so every player can have their own preferred face
15:03:29 <FLHerne> But everyone else would then see it differently
15:03:39 <FLHerne> (if anyone looked at them at all, ever....)
15:03:48 <peter1138> static newgrfs are a pain anyway.
15:04:02 <peter1138> As evidenced by there not being a UI for it.
15:04:23 <peter1138> FLHerne, let's just add webcam support :p
15:05:24 <andythenorth> let's not accidentally add chat roulette to ottd
15:06:10 <__ln__> let's add mandatory facebook login, which also solves the face issue.
15:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: and who pays the lawyer for the GDPR-related stuff?
15:21:54 <andythenorth> maybe an advanced face maker for that?
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15:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> what zoomlevel would that be?
15:49:45 <andythenorth> which is what I'm drawing for :P
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16:09:53 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ooh, those are the first trains I can remember travelling on
16:10:34 <FLHerne> I was always excited to see if my train was going to have a smile
16:10:45 <FLHerne> (they hadn't retrofitted them all yet)
17:06:39 <peter1138> Oh... waterways NRT :p
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19:01:15 <andythenorth> just 115 trains left to draw :P
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19:14:51 <andythenorth> did anyone merge NRT yet? o_O
19:14:55 <andythenorth> I wasn't looking
19:15:08 <Wolf01> Dunno, I'm busy with trains
19:18:38 <LordAro> andythenorth: needs a PR before it can be merged :p
19:20:47 <andythenorth> it needs peter1138 to merge Wolf01's gist to his fork :P
19:20:58 <andythenorth> then I can make a PR for OpenTTD repo :P
19:21:06 <andythenorth> or i could make a fork :P
19:22:15 <nielsm> making a fork with the changes in on github is def. the first step
19:23:13 <Wolf01> Or rebase the already forked one
19:23:14 <nielsm> but with the current pace of merging PRs don't expect it to happen within this year? :(
19:24:30 <Wolf01> nielsm: we have been working on it for about 2 years, one more won't be a problem
19:38:40 <Wolf01> andythenorth: I've seen the leak of the new bugatti... It doesn't convince me
19:41:31 <andythenorth> none of the big cars convince me :)
19:41:41 <andythenorth> I guess I'm not target audience
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19:42:43 <Wolf01> I'm the right target audience for every big technic
19:43:30 <andythenorth> Eurobricks Chiron thread: "Omg, I am little bit dissapointed somehow."
19:44:03 <Wolf01> But I got a burn with the porsche, I wait EB to destroy it before thinking about buying
19:44:35 <Wolf01> Lol, the same reaction I had on the group where I found the picture
19:52:56 <peter1138> Oh, I forgot I already wrote the patch to increase NRT to 64 road types.
20:11:13 <peter1138> Ah yes, that rebase
20:12:17 <andythenorth> one big patch :P
20:12:22 <andythenorth> TB said it's fine :P
20:13:38 <peter1138> It's merging the images which is a pain.
20:13:49 <peter1138> That's why I asked if maybe we should just leave them separate :p
20:14:01 <peter1138> Separate file I mean.
20:14:15 <andythenorth> not all in openttdgui.png?
20:14:22 <peter1138> Yeah, merging images sucks
20:14:30 <andythenorth> it's vanilla work for me
20:14:35 <andythenorth> I'd have to fork your fork though
20:15:08 <peter1138> My issue last time I tried was that rebase doesn't leave me with both parts, unlike with text changes.
20:15:24 <andythenorth> yeah I have to make foo.png.orig or whatever
20:15:29 <andythenorth> then manually reconcile
20:15:33 <peter1138> But I have added your gist
20:17:25 <andythenorth> meh, I can't figure out how to fork the fork
20:17:46 <peter1138> I'm rebasing right now at the moment so it'd be pointless
20:17:48 <andythenorth> github has 'where shall we fork this to?' and then tells me I already have forks
20:18:07 <andythenorth> i might just fix the pngs when you've rebased, and paste them somewhere :P
20:28:32 <peter1138> Rebuilding nrt-64 ;)
20:30:41 <peter1138> Just realised that / in branches are best not used like that :p
20:31:43 <peter1138> Hmm, I think the nrt rebase lost the savegame update, oops.
20:31:48 <peter1138> Don't use what I pushed :p
20:37:36 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> "blah blah car" <- yeah, only shape, I'll wait to see the mechanic
20:38:11 <peter1138> Didn't bother bumping the savegame for the 64-roadtypes version.
20:38:45 <peter1138> If we ever had concensus on "we should increase that limit" then it would make sense to do it before NRT, so NRT doesn't have a pointless change.
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20:39:38 <Wolf01> We didn't bother to bump it even for 1.7
20:40:35 <peter1138> Well if nothing changed then it's not strictly necessary
20:41:07 <Wolf01> It changed that trunk saves were not converted the right way then :P
20:41:12 <peter1138> Eh, I mean increase from 16 to 64.
20:41:49 <peter1138> Oh I misunderstood you wolf.
20:42:02 <peter1138> andythenorth, i would never condone going above 64 ;)
20:42:21 <peter1138> Someone would want to, right? :S
20:42:25 <Wolf01> If one asks for more than 64 roadtypes, a ban is mandatory
20:45:10 <V453000> well, before I could make the rendering of my new train actually work I got a deadline at work :D
20:46:39 <Wolf01> Or are you going out of alpha and you must finish all the graphics in hd?
20:50:15 <Wolf01> BTW, I like the glowing effect of the new ui
20:50:34 <V453000> thanks :) Albert would be happy to hear that
20:50:46 <V453000> Wolf01: basically we want MANY things, but there is ~TIME :D
20:56:54 <peter1138> Are they new road type labels?
20:57:59 <Thedarkb-X40> Do you people play with 90° turns on or off?
20:59:47 <andythenorth> I used to not, for realism
21:00:00 <andythenorth> but then...**** that
21:00:08 <Wolf01> I don't because they look stupid
21:00:10 <peter1138> I dislike the way it lets trains misuse X crossings :p
21:00:56 <andythenorth> I decided it's just a game ;p
21:01:10 <V453000> the shit they do in X crossings is awful
21:01:25 <Wolf01> Also, speaking of trains, I have a yard to scramble
21:57:50 <Wolf01> Ok, finished this shunting session, it was nice
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23:14:37 <Thedarkb1> I hate how the x train is lost thing works.
23:41:44 <V453000> you hate a lot of things don't you :)
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