IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-05-02
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08:29:11 <andythenorth> supermop you there? o_O
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12:44:46 <Pokka> nobody here but us chickens
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13:35:57 <peter1138> Hmm, suppose I should try the newest UKRS3
13:47:41 <V453000> is pokk how you say chicken sounds in english_
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14:24:12 <Pikka> if you do, peter1138, what do you think of the double-size buy menu sprites? yes/no/optional?
14:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause> what about people who use double size gui?
14:26:47 <Pikka> I don't know. does it also double the vehicle sprites?
14:30:28 <peter1138> 2x gui also uses 2x buy menu sprites.
14:30:54 <peter1138> So I'd say stick with the normal sprites.
14:31:09 <peter1138> If I want it doubled I'll use 2x gui :)
14:31:40 <peter1138> And... same for 4x :p
14:35:39 <peter1138> Hmm, I've done something wrong, it's not showing up :p
14:36:13 <peter1138> Ah, missing libxdg-basedir
14:36:52 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i should probably go shopping in the next 5 hours...
14:37:14 <peter1138> .co.uk may not be appropriate, unless you are buying for me.
14:37:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so... :p
14:37:39 <peter1138> There's lots of Lego on there, for instance.
14:39:08 <peter1138> Ah yeah, no Pikka, take those double-size sprites out please
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14:39:52 <markyisri> Hi, this may be the wrong place to ask, but I tried to join the OpenTTD reddit server 1 and I don't understand how I am supposed to join a company. They are all protected by a password.
14:40:09 <Pikka> start a new company, markyisri
14:40:10 <peter1138> Pikka, it gets ridiculous with 2x GUI, which I normally use :)
14:40:22 <markyisri> there are already 15 of them I think
14:40:34 <peter1138> I guess you need to find a less-full server then.
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14:41:16 <peter1138> markyisri, I guess you need to find a less-full server then.
14:41:27 <markyisri> peter1138: OK I will try a different one
14:41:55 <Pikka> or ask someone if you can join their company, or wait... I think it clears out unoccupied companies after a few hours
14:42:14 <peter1138> Pikka, a reason to be careful about using buy-menu specific sprites, if you only have a 1x version of that then it will be pixel doubled at 2x, and the rest of the sprites which do have 2x views will be high res. Would look odd.
14:42:39 <peter1138> I think the engine-tender gap is fine, myself.
14:43:19 <peter1138> I should get myself an 8K screen just so 4x GUI has a reason to exist.
14:43:50 <Pikka> I'd only done the double-sized for the locos, so yes, there was a mismatch. but yep, I'll revert everything to 1x. maybe I should get the biggui :P
14:44:08 <peter1138> Pikka, don't get biggui, it's old and doesn't work properly.
14:44:30 <peter1138> Just need to be "double size" in "interface size" on the options screen.
14:45:58 <peter1138> so basically, do your buy menu sprites as 2x, but mark them as 2x properly.
14:46:06 <peter1138> however that is done.
14:46:15 <peter1138> Then the game will show it right.
14:46:32 <peter1138> I guess you don't actually need to draw a 1x version.
14:47:19 <Pikka> no, I don't. all the sprites are 2x, and the double-sized buymenu was done simply by coding them as normal instead of 2x.
14:47:29 <Pikka> so it was very easy to revert :)
14:48:14 <peter1138> Also, is it just me or does window resizing not work properly? At least with SDL.
14:49:32 <peter1138> Seems to add the height of the titlebar to the window on every mouse-pointer move.
14:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea when i last tried to resize a window
14:54:05 <peter1138> I mean the window for the whole game, not a window in game.
14:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i don't think i have resized the game window in like 10 years :p
14:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it's always maximized
14:54:55 <__ln__> game years or real-life years
14:55:14 <peter1138> I've not played OpenTTD fullscreen since... since playing at 800x600 on a CRT.
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14:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> not fullscreen, just maximised
14:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i just tried resizing on the title screen, it flickers a lot
14:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> as in goes to black and redraws
14:56:31 <peter1138> Yeah, that seems to happen.
14:56:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but nothing else seems to be odd
15:04:41 <peter1138> Yeah, seems like the call to SDL_SetVideoMode() is messing up.
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15:19:20 <peter1138> Didn't someone have an SDL 2.0 patch?
15:20:00 <peter1138> Let's switch to glfw :p
15:20:50 <peter1138> Requires everyone to use OpenGL though.
15:21:38 <peter1138> Also, our input event handling it shit.
15:25:10 <LordAro> you should rewrite it
15:25:50 <peter1138> But I keep getting deeper and deeper rabbit holes.
15:26:20 <LordAro> i'm doing that right now
15:26:32 <peter1138> So the drivers all set some random global variable, and then call another function with no parameters.
15:26:41 <peter1138> That function then tests all these variables to find out what happened.
15:27:12 <peter1138> Why not 1) just pass it in parameters directly 2) use different functions for different events...
15:28:21 <peter1138> Also our onClick is handle on mouse button press.
15:28:59 <peter1138> In most UIs (except, say, menus), onClick would be handled on mouse button release.
15:29:41 <peter1138> Tab switching, is mouse down, but we don't have tabs.
15:29:51 <peter1138> Well, sort of do, they're just buttons though.
15:30:20 <peter1138> Ok, maybe it's just buttons that should be on button release :)
15:31:34 <LordAro> buttons have to depress on ...press though?
15:32:20 <peter1138> they normally activate on release though, so you can click, then move off the button and release, and nothing happens
15:33:05 <peter1138> Anyway that's minor
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16:17:32 <peter1138> Hmm, Jenkins playing up, it built the same PR commit twice :S
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16:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "doppelt hält besser"
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19:31:23 <peter1138> Hmm, gonna be some wet trails out there tonight.
19:33:00 <peter1138> MTB ride in the woods tonight.
19:34:47 <Wolf01> Do you have the mudguards?
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20:01:06 <frosch123> poop lordaro, everyone bashes him :) where is yorick?
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20:09:44 <_dp_> frosch123, what do you mean? should I not add anything to that comment?
20:13:17 <_dp_> frosch123, I initially assumed that comment should be edited as part of release cycle, not patch, but then that discussion started and you kind of supported it, so now I'm totally confused xD
20:14:32 <frosch123> _dp_: currently you change 1.8.x into 1.8.0
20:14:40 <frosch123> just don't modify that line :)
20:15:13 <_dp_> frosch123, so, add "198" line but not change 197...?
20:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: all (future) 1.8.x releases will still use the old savegame version
20:16:45 <frosch123> (i would not have cared bout the 198 line being added or not, but 197 should not be changed)
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20:17:38 <andythenorth> Pikka is it civil yet?
20:18:07 <_dp_> frosch123, ok, changed it back
20:18:33 <andythenorth> I've invented a new game mode for OpenTTD
20:19:42 <andythenorth> instead of playing as a company, play as minor deity
20:19:47 <andythenorth> and sort out what the AIs are doing
20:19:47 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, what do you mean by that? I looked at version 194-195 when I was changing the comment
20:20:33 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i don't know what those lines say
20:20:52 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, 194 26881 1.5.x, 1.6.0; 195 27572 1.6.x
20:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: what i meant was that minor releases cannot change the savegame version, if trunk bumped savegame version inbetween
20:21:34 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, apparently it was changed in 1.6.1
20:21:37 <Pikka> I'm supposed to be spriting but I keep tinkering with it, I'm improving the bus stop building, which is the oldest part of the code :)
20:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: well, it can be done if there was no trunk bump
20:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> then trunk and release can bump simultaneously
20:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause> (for varying degrees of "simultaneous")
20:23:20 * andythenorth wonders how to name the new game
20:23:33 <andythenorth> 'somewhat deity'
20:24:11 <Wolf01> Or like my saves: "w", "w1", "wwwwww"
20:25:06 <andythenorth> I didn't mean the save :P
20:25:13 <andythenorth> this is a new game mode :P
20:25:23 <andythenorth> AIs make a mess, your goal is to tidy it up
20:25:37 <andythenorth> you get ~money and ~unrestricted building
20:25:44 * _dp_ playing that game for 3 years already
20:25:52 <_dp_> called "server administration"
20:26:02 <_dp_> sorting out the mess players taught by AI do
20:26:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, it is not new. when noai was added and the original ai was removed, multiple people complained that the gamemode "takeover ai companies and fix their mess" was removed
20:26:34 <andythenorth> yes I think I played that
20:26:43 <Alberth> baldys boss made an art of it :p
20:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that reminds me of the time when i played the TT demo and "learned" building sidings from the AI (but not "learning" about signals)
20:28:05 <Eddi|zuHause> or one of the screenshots in the TT manual which showed a multi track station, but also didn't include signals
20:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> which confused my brother a lot
20:28:36 <andythenorth> I think I remember that screenshot :P
20:28:57 <nielsm> I wonder if I have my original manual still
20:29:12 <nielsm> I remember it putting "windows" in quotes every time when talking about window management etc
20:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i lost my orginal box at some point
20:32:45 <TrueBrain> CI queue is long today :(
20:34:16 <andythenorth> so Horse, narrow gauge trains
20:34:41 <frosch123> TrueBrain: only have the length of last weekend
20:35:11 <TrueBrain> now I have to remember where the strings of the downloads are stored .. like "Windows XP / Vista / 7"
20:35:15 <TrueBrain> really cannot remember ...
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20:35:59 <TrueBrain> I believe it was some separate file telling the mapping
20:37:50 <TrueBrain> ah .. found the filename .. now where is it located ...
20:38:35 <michi_cc> nielsm: I uploaded a music sample to GH to show what I mean.
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20:39:14 <nielsm> odd, I don't get any reverb effects with the MS synth
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20:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: separate narrowhorse set?
20:47:19 <andythenorth> nah, although it's a valid suggestion
20:47:48 <andythenorth> better in a roster
20:48:05 <andythenorth> the appeal of a separate set is just making it once ;P
20:48:48 <andythenorth> in UK / Ireland horse, I think it's one engine every 40 years
20:49:00 <andythenorth> and maybe pax railcar
20:49:40 <andythenorth> but a case could be made for small (4/8) and large (6/8) engines
20:53:11 <andythenorth> and also for 'fast' (pax, mail) and 'slow' (freight)
20:53:19 <andythenorth> just not sure it's worth all that :P
20:55:02 <Eddi|zuHause> there isn't really a lot of "fast" narrow gauge around
20:55:56 <andythenorth> only in QLD with Pikka
20:56:20 <andythenorth> it would be 5-10mph different at best
20:56:45 <Pikka> that's the problem with a queensland set
20:56:52 <Pikka> 1900 to 2000, everything's 50mph
20:58:23 * andythenorth deletes QLD roster :P
21:02:19 <supermop_work> andythenorth: jr
21:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could just make wagonspeedlimits different by 5-10mph, and leave the engine speed the higher of both
21:05:39 <andythenorth> that is very plausible
21:06:20 <andythenorth> in this roster, NG is something like "I want a bigger tram"
21:06:32 <andythenorth> rather than "I want a smaller train"
21:06:59 <andythenorth> point-point A->B routes, two or three trains, no big network
21:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> most new tram systems of the past few years have been standard gauge
21:07:47 <andythenorth> I think we can overlook that in the game design :)
21:08:09 <andythenorth> or it supports the argument somehow, dunno
21:43:55 <nielsm> if you set an output port on the dmusic driver it forces the ms synth into a compatibility mode or something
21:44:13 <nielsm> and it becomes all dry sounding
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22:02:10 <andythenorth> do I cap out NG performance at year 19xx? Or keep upgrading generations until 2020?
22:04:36 <V453000> 2100 are slugs obviously
22:04:50 <andythenorth> standard slug speed?
22:07:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: make them drive faster when there is at least one curve along the train
22:07:29 <andythenorth> to encourage bendy tracks?
22:07:41 <frosch123> the only point of narrow gauge is bendy
22:07:47 <frosch123> so penalise straight track
22:08:08 <andythenorth> can I overflow curve speed penalty?
22:08:11 <frosch123> people can build zig-zag, but that will make the track longer
22:09:03 <V453000> wait you can do that?
22:09:16 <V453000> trains faster at curves?
22:10:29 <andythenorth> can't set the value :P
22:10:51 <nielsm> michi_cc, from reading some more docs, as far as I can tell if you want to use the DirectMusic synth low-level you have to manage effects yourself as well, possibly even per channel too, which will probably get really hairy
22:11:17 <frosch123> hmm, looks like max speed is cached too much
22:11:23 <V453000> well tilt is tilt, but trains actually going faster when in curves than on straight track?
22:11:26 <frosch123> you cannot change it while running
22:11:29 <V453000> :D that's probably for the better frosch123 :P
22:11:47 <andythenorth> could do it on railtype change :P
22:11:56 <andythenorth> can I do a railtype with some angles missing :P
22:12:39 <V453000> spoilers: game doesn't actually have curves :P
22:12:47 <frosch123> people who travel my narrow gauge get bored on straight track?
22:13:17 <andythenorth> applying the tilt bonus might be valid :P
22:13:32 <andythenorth> just sticking to things the spec actually offers :P
22:14:16 * V453000 is going to do some nasty shit regardless.
22:14:36 <frosch123> well, running cost is always an option
22:14:57 <andythenorth> mostly, I depend on "well it looks different"
22:15:30 <V453000> high running cost when on straight tracks? :D
22:15:46 <V453000> sounds mental, I love it
22:16:06 <V453000> yeah, that probably not. The one which stops at signals and increases price, likely yes
22:16:17 <V453000> in combination with almost 0 cargo decay rate
22:16:20 <frosch123> snakes have difficulty on straights
22:16:25 <V453000> so you can get better profits but your trains must not stop
22:16:27 <frosch123> they need to snake to move forward
22:16:45 <V453000> ok your logic wins, putting it on the list of wtf ideas
22:20:26 <V453000> need to finish 1 full engine with wagons for it and I'll code a prototype
22:21:46 <frosch123> i don't get the refittable part
22:22:25 <V453000> it's also universal in terms of cargoes but every cargo has 7 subrefits? :D
22:22:40 <V453000> what's the max amount of subrefits? :D
22:23:11 <frosch123> you cannot change subrefit via orders
22:23:35 <V453000> I had colour-changing trains from NUTS and those do it via subrefit
22:24:39 <frosch123> we removed that in 1.4
22:25:06 <frosch123> gone since december 2013
22:26:51 <V453000> that was one of the most important parts :d
22:26:59 <V453000> back to the drawing boards :D
22:27:21 <frosch123> also, i have no idea how you want to implement the booster parts :)
22:27:56 <V453000> I think we talked about it at some point and figured it should be possible with the store variable things
22:29:51 <V453000> well damn the subrefit thing really looks broken :d
22:30:00 <andythenorth> for boosters V453000
22:30:01 <V453000> ok. :D I think I can substitute that one
22:30:14 <andythenorth> I recommend you code generate a *really* horrible stack of switches
22:30:15 <V453000> but I was kind of guessing the store temp thing would be able to do this
22:30:25 <V453000> yes that's kind of the plan andythenorth
22:30:27 <andythenorth> all combinations handled, in switch :P
22:30:37 <andythenorth> it's definitely wrong
22:30:44 <andythenorth> but probably achieveable
22:30:53 <andythenorth> unless you have more combinations that atoms in universe
22:31:02 <V453000> I think the biggest problem was that I want to check if for example power part is at position 5 and then add it to some value somewhere
22:32:02 <V453000> yeah that's what I thought
22:32:08 <andythenorth> train has maximum length?
22:32:12 <V453000> know that I don't really understand propely what the store temp does :P
22:32:13 <frosch123> it would work if the booster parts have to follow the engine immediately, and there is a limited amount of them
22:32:20 <frosch123> say, not more than 10
22:32:46 <frosch123> but you cannot make the engine scan the whole train and count booster parts
22:33:04 <frosch123> or is there only one booster part per type? do they stack?
22:33:26 <andythenorth> can't keep offsetting to a vehicle and checking ID?
22:33:54 <andythenorth> generated switch
22:33:58 <andythenorth> count length of consist
22:34:08 <frosch123> also kind of excessive for longer trains
22:34:12 <andythenorth> my proposal isn't _good_ or _nice_
22:34:29 <andythenorth> "wagon power" nonsense? o_O
22:34:32 <frosch123> but yeah, you can try to generate 1k switches to check 256 vehicles for 4 things each :p
22:34:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: yeah, I think we should watch V do that
22:34:50 <andythenorth> it's just a tree
22:35:12 <andythenorth> FIRS has some equal horrors in it for location checks, and for terrain aware tiles
22:35:42 <andythenorth> maybe not 'equal', by an order of magnitude :P
22:36:06 <V453000> so I can't have 1 engine with 10 wagons where they are kind of random part types, where first and last 3 are power so fist one adds 12800, second one 8533, third one 6400, and the ones at the end 2560, 2327 and 2133 to the total power of those + some base power of the engine?
22:36:25 <andythenorth> not for arbitrary consist lengths
22:36:28 <V453000> or would it "just be fucking slow to compute"? :D
22:37:02 <frosch123> would need trying :p
22:37:05 <andythenorth> "probably fine" up to some limit
22:37:26 <andythenorth> like most things :P
22:37:27 <V453000> well I guess the powered wagons thing could be used for power and the wagon would just check for position in consist, right?
22:37:51 <V453000> T.E. coefficient & engine weight increase not though
22:38:02 <V453000> capacity part only influences itself
22:38:16 <frosch123> the cached things are less of an issue
22:38:28 <frosch123> well, just try it, and learn :p
22:38:30 <V453000> what are cached things? :)
22:38:41 <V453000> I guess I should start coding before doing proper graphics then
22:38:42 <andythenorth> if you enforced, e.g. TL5 or something
22:38:54 <andythenorth> your life would be order of magnitude simpler
22:39:01 <V453000> that sounds pretty tough to do andythenorth
22:39:14 <V453000> buy 5 unit articulated trains? how do you customize them?
22:39:16 <andythenorth> isn't there some "can't leave depot" thing?
22:39:45 <V453000> one of the aims was to remove stupid errors like NUTS' wagon connecting errors
22:39:52 <V453000> now trains wouldn't be able to leave depot :D
22:40:10 <andythenorth> enforcing TL isn't too bad
22:40:14 <V453000> btw how would a set TL actually make it easier?
22:40:23 <andythenorth> because you only have to walk the consist once
22:40:23 <V453000> I still need to check for the positions?
22:40:42 <andythenorth> yes, but you don't have to measure train length, and build a stack of switches *for every possible length*
22:40:59 <andythenorth> for arbitrary lengths
22:41:06 <frosch123> it's only linear :p
22:41:15 <V453000> well bonus above 20 units was meant to be the same
22:41:27 <V453000> could be above 10 units
22:41:34 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
22:41:55 <frosch123> V453000: essetially you need separate switches for vehicles at each position
22:42:23 <frosch123> if you need 5 switches to decide the feffect of the 1st wagon, you need 5 for the 2nd, 5 for the 3rd, 5*max length in total
22:42:52 <andythenorth> it's achieveable
22:42:56 <andythenorth> and you can code generate them
22:43:05 <andythenorth> nobody tried such a thing
22:43:10 <V453000> well code generation isn't a problem really, I already expect to have to do that
22:43:22 <V453000> well I guess there's only one way to find out
22:43:35 <andythenorth> but imho, fixing the train length simplifies your life
22:43:39 <V453000> I suppose next step should be make placeholder graphics asap, try coding
22:43:51 <andythenorth> also, all games have fixed TL always anyway
22:43:52 <V453000> I really don't like that one bit andy
22:44:02 <V453000> well yeah but why 5 :D
22:44:14 <V453000> length could be a parameter but that's horrible
22:44:29 <andythenorth> parameter doesn't win you much, then you have to handle the parameter in the code generator
22:44:36 <andythenorth> so you might as well just have arbitrary
22:44:43 <andythenorth> all or nothing eh
22:44:53 <andythenorth> TL5 because I was told to once
22:45:07 <V453000> well doing more code isn't a problem
22:45:13 <V453000> doing something that wrecks the game might be :P
22:45:29 <V453000> let's add frosch123's snake train gfx to make sure :P
22:45:32 <andythenorth> nothing advances utnil it's pushed
22:46:01 <V453000> ok I'll make basic placeholder images and try coding asap
22:46:37 <V453000> expect hopeless questions :D
22:47:03 <andythenorth> go big or go home
22:47:13 <andythenorth> also I expect to see use of depot flip
22:47:19 <andythenorth> so each wagon has A or B option
22:47:24 <andythenorth> and you can combo them
22:47:53 <V453000> yeah that's pretty nuts andy
22:47:59 <V453000> not too sure i want/need that
22:47:59 <andythenorth> also V453000 combo breakers, anti-easter egg
22:48:05 <andythenorth> some combos nerf your train
22:48:22 <andythenorth> the whole idea is awesome
22:48:40 <andythenorth> you should make accompanying industry set :P
22:48:42 <V453000> I was thinking there would be a secret combination which turns the train into a slug
22:48:53 <andythenorth> special combo of flip
22:48:58 <andythenorth> like flip 1, 3, 4, 6
22:49:02 <V453000> but I'll most likely just have a separate slug vehicle because it's home railtype can be some railtype with high curve speed
22:49:08 * Pikka contemplates a single loco set
22:49:09 <andythenorth> or flip 2, 5, 7 for angry slug
22:49:15 <Pikka> where the single loco is a Class 08
22:49:18 <frosch123> V453000: oh, i forgot about vehicle var 60
22:49:21 <V453000> that was the idea & is possibility
22:49:27 <frosch123> different than i remembered
22:49:38 <frosch123> so, counting vehicles is fine, just position is hard
22:50:01 <andythenorth> yeah counting is fine
22:50:02 <frosch123> count number of wagons of specific type in train
22:50:07 <andythenorth> and 61 is 'fine'
22:50:19 <andythenorth> oh no, not possible in cb36
22:50:23 <andythenorth> bad news V453000
22:51:01 <frosch123> oh, right, so position-specific is actually completely impossible
22:51:14 <andythenorth> because circ deps
22:51:23 <andythenorth> and there's no perm. storage
22:51:57 <frosch123> V453000: so, counting wagons works, but no positions :)
22:52:06 <V453000> I guess it's something
22:52:18 <V453000> but that makes long trains ultra overpowered
22:52:43 <frosch123> just divide the effect by total number of wagons
22:52:45 <V453000> unless the efficiency of the parts drops with total consist length? :D
22:53:04 <V453000> that's not stupid idea either
22:53:05 <frosch123> so you use percentages, not total number
22:53:45 <V453000> soooooooooooooooo open scripting specs for vehicle grfs? :P
22:54:20 <V453000> the max bonus sounds decent andy
22:54:38 <V453000> but that just means that you get X number of parts which increase performance, and rest just capacity parts
22:55:04 <andythenorth> depends how you do it
22:55:12 <frosch123> make running cost exponential with length :p
22:55:18 <andythenorth> so far we seem to be talking about modifying lead engine based on wagons
22:55:24 <andythenorth> but why not just give wagons power?
22:55:33 <V453000> power would be fine there
22:55:39 <andythenorth> and then mod that depending on position in consist
22:55:39 <V453000> but T.E and max speed?
22:55:50 <V453000> yes wagon power sounds ok
22:56:03 <andythenorth> max speed, some kind of check of other IDs in consist
22:56:15 <andythenorth> so you find who is fastest wagon
22:56:37 <V453000> O_O oh, wagon speed limits
22:56:54 <andythenorth> don't use powered wagon shit
22:56:59 <andythenorth> implement wagon as engine
22:57:08 <andythenorth> then just give it excess TE
22:57:25 <andythenorth> you can ban 'wagons' being lead
22:57:55 <andythenorth> it won't affect TE of whole consist, but if you go excession on it, you'll get a result
22:58:18 <andythenorth> TE isn't that relevant anyway
22:58:27 <andythenorth> I ran some tests this week with horse fast/strong engines
22:58:40 <andythenorth> HP makes much more difference than TE on typical slopes
22:58:51 <V453000> the train accelerates at low speed much better with high T.E.
22:58:59 <V453000> slopes are overall irrelevant
22:59:01 <andythenorth> yeah, for a few tiles
22:59:11 <andythenorth> over a longer run, HP wins out every time
22:59:17 <andythenorth> just comparing head-to-head
22:59:28 <V453000> over a longer run yes, but generally I want engines which accelerate rather quickly anyway
22:59:40 <andythenorth> well just boost it to excess on some wagons
22:59:42 <V453000> but yeah I could also skip fucking with T.E. and just keep T.E. at some number without T.E. part
22:59:53 <V453000> I'll think about that
23:00:03 <V453000> implementing everything as engines is hacky esp as you can't auto-join them in depot
23:00:08 <andythenorth> a high-TE, low HP engine might still kick the consist off at low speed
23:00:09 <V453000> and drag them manually
23:00:20 <andythenorth> this is a bit close to some IRL situations :P
23:00:30 <andythenorth> where engines switch modes as speed increases
23:00:51 <andythenorth> controlling electric motors in trains is really sophisticated to handle different speeds + power demands
23:01:14 <andythenorth> engines have transitions from series/parallel etc
23:01:31 <andythenorth> and if diesel-electric, the diesel engine responds to that in different ways
23:01:38 <andythenorth> it's not like driving a car :P
23:01:52 <V453000> ok on a scale of 0 to 666 how evil is implementing wagons as engines? :D
23:02:01 <andythenorth> I implement pax cars as engines
23:02:03 <V453000> omg finally wagons introduction is in news :P
23:02:24 <V453000> isn't that annoying to build?
23:02:33 <V453000> click buy, add to train, click buy, add to train
23:02:45 <andythenorth> but build one, clone
23:02:49 <V453000> I guess you only do it at the start and the rest you clone
23:03:00 <andythenorth> power scales with train length
23:03:05 <andythenorth> it's kind of fine
23:03:21 <andythenorth> 2000hp for every 16/8 length
23:03:21 <V453000> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
23:03:34 <andythenorth> all your ideas are super-realism V :P
23:03:56 <V453000> yeah I didn't like that mechanic much because that just gives you 1 way how to use the train without possibility to sacrifice capacity for acceleration
23:04:09 <V453000> I think japanese train set EMUs have same capacity in wagons as in engines
23:04:14 <V453000> -> you only spam engines
23:05:01 <V453000> I think the T.E. thing is going to work on the engines fine, too
23:05:18 <V453000> actually much better than on the wagons
23:05:30 <V453000> because if the wagons ADD to the main engine, then you reach 255 rather fast quite likely
23:05:34 <V453000> and need to add weight after that
23:06:04 <V453000> but if each thing is actually engine, then the first one just gets a metric shitton, and each one after just less, and then it just all adds up
23:06:11 <andythenorth> I *really* want to change depot-flip behaviour
23:06:20 <andythenorth> so each ctrl-click increments a counter
23:06:25 <andythenorth> up to 16, then reset to 0
23:06:34 <andythenorth> I am deadly serious
23:06:41 <andythenorth> we can shim the existing behaviour for old newgrfs
23:06:56 <andythenorth> then train vehicles can have 16 'variants'
23:06:58 <V453000> for liveries that's glorious
23:07:05 <V453000> almost nobody uses flipping anyway
23:07:05 <andythenorth> or anything else you invent
23:07:15 <V453000> I won't either because my engines are articulated
23:07:17 <andythenorth> instead of some hard-coded livery UI which won't please the foamers anyway
23:07:22 <andythenorth> articulated engines do it too
23:07:26 <frosch123> do people still use the ctrl+click signal rotation?
23:07:27 <andythenorth> that's part of my patch idea
23:07:49 <V453000> frosch123: the semaphore/light signals?
23:07:55 <andythenorth> frosch123: there's _another_ way to do signals besides ctrl-click?
23:08:07 <andythenorth> V453000: for PBS one way
23:08:19 <andythenorth> I never touch the signal UI, it's dreadful
23:08:21 <V453000> changing type after built
23:08:25 <frosch123> V453000: no, i mean build pre signal by a) select presignal and build or b) build signal, ctrl+build to switch from normal to presignal
23:08:32 <V453000> I do that all the time
23:08:40 <andythenorth> 'choose colour light PBS', try to never look at signal UI ever again
23:08:40 <V453000> switching in gui is clicks elsewhere->slower
23:09:12 <andythenorth> the signal UI is just two rows of confusing blobs
23:09:25 <V453000> so frosch123 what do you think about implementing all parts as engines, instead of wagons? :D
23:09:43 <frosch123> didn't you already answer that? annoying to build
23:10:04 <V453000> issue is player can just let parts out of the depot without the actual engine, too? :D without annoying check for vehicle can leave depot that is
23:10:10 <V453000> I guess I did, just asking for more opinions :)
23:10:15 <V453000> andythenorth is evil and twisted
23:10:30 <andythenorth> Helm Wind, from 1980 or so
23:10:37 <andythenorth> it is annoying to build
23:10:55 <V453000> well I can imagine stacking engines being annoying to build
23:10:58 <peter1138> Should I do some coding.
23:11:02 <peter1138> Or... clean the bike off.
23:11:15 <V453000> peter1138: wagons with power and T.E. please :D
23:11:23 <andythenorth> it will be harder next time
23:11:55 <peter1138> V453000, they're called engines.
23:12:20 <V453000> they don't automatically add to consist on purchase :P
23:12:42 <V453000> yeah andy I used that shit at some point in NUTS
23:13:06 <andythenorth> never appealed to me
23:13:21 <V453000> I know I read somewhere that it's not recommended to use or something
23:13:31 <V453000> and there was some weird exploit that I did with it, I can't remember
23:13:44 <andythenorth> probably totally fine
23:13:52 <andythenorth> we're just prejudiced against old bits of spec :P
23:14:24 <frosch123> andy is just on a track to relearn history :p
23:14:56 <V453000> andythenorth: the wagon count is just bonkers
23:15:05 <V453000> why do so many of them seem to be duplicates?
23:15:30 <V453000> 3 small dump cars, same stats, slightly different prices?
23:15:45 <andythenorth> have to use 'vehicles expire'
23:15:45 <andythenorth> otherwise madness
23:16:09 <frosch123> since when do you show vehicles in blue and red?
23:16:30 <andythenorth> V453000: only way to evolve stats innit
23:16:46 <V453000> well you have 4 hopper wagons without any stat increase?
23:17:14 <andythenorth> "wagon speed limits"
23:17:30 * andythenorth waits for V453000 emoticons
23:17:51 <andythenorth> I'm not even pretending to any other solution
23:17:59 <andythenorth> idea, pursued to logical maximum :P
23:18:11 <andythenorth> I might hate it by 2019
23:18:33 <andythenorth> how else to avoid having only one type of engine? o_O
23:18:37 <V453000> well at least the engines are in clear steps to match them
23:18:40 <andythenorth> it's this, or just one engine
23:18:53 <V453000> you mean forced 1 network with different engine types
23:18:58 <andythenorth> if logic ruled, purest grf is this
23:19:03 <andythenorth> - one engine, ultra everything
23:19:12 <andythenorth> - one wagon, universal refit, no limit, 8/8
23:19:29 <V453000> well my philosophy with NUTS is that you have 1 network with uniform things, but the next time you play you build something else
23:19:38 <V453000> that's choice :) having 1 engine for each cargo type isn't choice
23:19:40 <andythenorth> also why has nobody made The Ultimate GRF
23:20:13 <V453000> it's coming andythenorth :P
23:21:16 <andythenorth> now you broke frosch V453000
23:26:39 <andythenorth> also build-drag, build-drag is boring
23:27:46 <andythenorth> wagons-are-engines
23:28:01 * andythenorth thinking of alternatives
23:29:15 <andythenorth> V453000: refit subtype crap?
23:29:41 <V453000> how does that solve anything?
23:29:41 <andythenorth> can't see how that works tbh
23:29:58 <andythenorth> just crap as usual
23:30:27 <andythenorth> yeah, messing with lead engine stats is fine
23:30:40 <andythenorth> ordered combos...not
23:30:52 <andythenorth> can't think of alternatives
23:32:26 <andythenorth> V453000: you could do it like slots in other games, e.g. tanks, racing games etc
23:32:37 <andythenorth> so you get 3 slots after engine
23:32:50 <andythenorth> and choose from 9 power-up wagons
23:32:58 <andythenorth> rest are just cargo after that
23:33:41 <andythenorth> the slots thing is just a way to avoid 27 engines in buy menu :P
23:34:15 <andythenorth> once concept is set, pursue to max, profit
23:35:07 <andythenorth> pursue sleep to max
23:35:32 <V453000> well I'd have 11 engines and 6 parts
23:36:33 <andythenorth> 72 million possible combos
23:36:38 <andythenorth> hard maths I did there
23:37:16 <V453000> omg ultimate train set
23:37:28 <V453000> wagons as engines means you can autoreplace between wagons and engines
23:37:45 <V453000> luckily I want to make only 1 "main engine" possible to attach per train
23:37:59 <V453000> because real engines are 16/8, wagons 8/8
23:38:22 <V453000> still need to add checks to prevent players from building trains without the main engine :D
23:38:35 <V453000> which ... is that even possible?
23:38:41 <andythenorth> just nerf stats :P
23:38:44 <V453000> or just can't send from depots?
23:38:51 <andythenorth> or can't send from depot
23:39:07 <V453000> can't send from depot might be the better alternative here
23:39:21 <V453000> although I can imagine it being quite hillarious to see wagon-only trains
23:39:38 <andythenorth> you could sack the lead engine
23:39:43 <andythenorth> just combo wagons :P
23:40:07 <V453000> that removes progression unless done by just a switch based on date
23:40:18 <andythenorth> "They are also particularly notable for their status as the very first combining subgroup of Transformers."
23:40:18 <V453000> which doesn't require autoreplace -> bad
23:40:38 <andythenorth> just give wagons generations
23:41:09 <andythenorth> long buy menu is fine, it turns out
23:41:14 <andythenorth> just don't fill it with shit sprites
23:41:25 <andythenorth> or pointless 'my favourite train'
23:41:38 <V453000> well 11 generations of 5 parts is still ok-ish
23:41:46 <V453000> having 11 + 5 I find better though
23:42:10 <V453000> yeah, maybe just nerfing stats without leading engine is fine
23:42:30 <V453000> andythenorth: visually it's like 14k wagon sprites :P
23:42:57 <V453000> cargoes, variations, generations
23:42:57 <andythenorth> all those grfs with lots of engines, and no wagons :P
23:43:11 <V453000> iz wagons, just hidden in refit
23:43:16 <andythenorth> train is mostly wagons
23:43:27 <V453000> unless iz all engines
23:43:56 <andythenorth> do big and small ones :P
23:44:38 <V453000> Option B is to still use wagons but with powered, max wagon speed, and ignore T.E.
23:44:58 <V453000> but I guess 1 is ignored, and max wagon speed can be toggled by a setting
23:45:04 <V453000> and powered doing weird shit
23:46:16 <andythenorth> just go full wtf
23:46:58 <V453000> the engines are wtf but kind of controllable wtf
23:47:16 <V453000> autoreplace can be bullied by not allowing the consist
23:48:12 <V453000> oh, isn't idiot proof
23:48:19 <V453000> you can autoreplace the main engine to a part
23:48:41 <V453000> and not be able to go back because the leading part is the same as 1+ other parts in consist
23:49:17 <V453000> I guess can't leave depot does autoreplace the train and then make it stuck in depot?
23:50:15 <V453000> well, I better go die on bed
23:50:25 <V453000> this doesn't lead to places :D
23:50:31 <V453000> good night, thanks for talk :)
23:52:16 <_dp_> hm, interesting, when you set growth rate with GS it doesn't necessarily mean town will grow.
23:52:35 <_dp_> still requires climate-specific cargo for example
23:57:11 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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