IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-05-01
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00:07:11 <nielsm> glx: build speed? I don't consider my machine impressive at all, though...
00:08:29 <nielsm> well yes, especially with LTCG
00:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> your close relatives aren't allowed to use Windows? <-- that wouldn't exempt you from supporting those computers either
00:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, person was really happy about "boah this computer is fast now"
00:09:30 <markyisri> I recently started playing OpenTTD (yesterday). It has taken me a while but I seem to have finally gotten off the ground in regards to profit vs debt. I was trying to make a dead-end station with two tracks coming off of it but I can't get the signalling right.
00:09:39 <glx> of course after you removed all the useless stuff auto installed by crappy apps downloaded from internet
00:10:16 <nielsm> markyisri, can you share a screenshot?
00:11:18 <nielsm> you can find a lot of guides on signalling out there, but for a wholly new player I'd recommend just learning to use path-based signals from the beginning, they make things simpler in the long run
00:11:30 <markyisri> Not right now as I am not on the computer with OpenTTD. It's a single track station with one dead end and the other with a short straight rail followed by a split into two different lines that are unconnected in any way.
00:11:36 <markyisri> I tried path based signals
00:11:38 <nielsm> (PBS also matches real-world signalling better, in most cases)
00:11:58 <glx> first rule for PBS, place signals only where it's safe to wait
00:12:12 <markyisri> I tried protecting each branch where they join the mainline.
00:12:24 <nielsm> oh, the two platforms on your station are not "equal"?
00:12:46 <nielsm> (could a train ever pick the wrong platform to not be able to continue?)
00:13:01 <glx> and more important, a junction should never be blocable by a signal
00:13:37 <glx> else a train will fataly stops in the middle of the junction
00:13:50 <nielsm> yes: 1) place signals before the entry to danger points 2) do not place signals so a train waiting at it would block crossing trains
00:14:36 <nielsm> (and as a corollary, do not place signals at exits from danger points)
00:14:56 <markyisri> I can send a mockup picture that I made. How do I attach pictures?
00:15:04 <glx> usually for platforms you place one way signals with lights facing the platform
00:15:32 <glx> trains can pass signals from the wrong direction
00:15:32 <nielsm> irc chat doesn't really have picture sharing built-in, you can upload it to imgur.com or similar and share the link
00:16:12 <markyisri> Please excuse the quality
00:16:16 <markyisri> I hand-drew it for the most part
00:17:22 <FLHerne> Which way are the signals facing?
00:17:29 <markyisri> The ^ symbol shows which way
00:18:11 <glx> so both tracks are 2-way ?
00:18:43 <glx> usually you want two 1-way tracks, one for each direction
00:18:46 <markyisri> Yes. A train arrives coming down the picture and enters the station. Shortly after, the second train arrived coming down the picture and obstructed the junction, preventing the first train from leaving the same way it came.
00:19:05 <markyisri> So I cannot do a dead-end run back and forth with the train turning around each time?
00:19:20 <markyisri> I ask because it is cheaper than constructing more rails. :)
00:19:36 <glx> you can, just put signal on the arriving track
00:19:49 <markyisri> where would I place the signal on my picture?
00:19:53 <FLHerne> Where did the second train stop? If the signals face in the direction shown, it shouldn't be possible for the second train to get a path approaching the station at all
00:20:17 <markyisri> I think I may have added another path signal immediately following the junction.
00:20:20 <FLHerne> (I assume that ^ means 'for trains heading 'north' ')
00:20:20 <markyisri> But I can't remember.
00:20:32 <markyisri> It shows the way that the signal light is shining
00:20:47 <nielsm> I think that's what you want
00:21:00 <FLHerne> A screenshot would be clearer
00:21:12 <FLHerne> Yes, that should work if you have a single train on each branch
00:21:49 <markyisri> nielsm: there is no need for a signal facing the other direction for the train in the platform?
00:21:56 <FLHerne> If you have more than one train using the same branch, you'll need a passing loop to avoid the problem with trains being blocked from leaving
00:22:11 <markyisri> FLHerne: I see what would happen.
00:22:20 <nielsm> not if it's end of line, no
00:22:36 <glx> if you place a signal on the platform you'll get a train waiting in the junction
00:22:52 <markyisri> glx: Which is exactly what I don't want
00:22:59 <markyisri> I want it to wait before obstructing the junction
00:23:16 <glx> but as nielsm placed it it's ok
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00:25:04 <markyisri> That looks like it will work when I expand service in the future (after getting out of debt)
00:25:20 <markyisri> Speaking of which, any suggestions on how to pay off the loan faster?
00:25:20 <FLHerne> (it's important that there are at least as many 'safe' places to wait (including platforms at the other end) as trains using the line
00:25:31 <glx> be prepared to always modify your tracks ;)
00:25:33 <nielsm> remember, sometimes it's better to take on more debt to expand service
00:25:47 <markyisri> I currently owe $200,000 US
00:25:51 <nielsm> because of network effect
00:26:09 <glx> for easy money transport coal :)
00:26:31 <FLHerne> markyisri: Note: nielsm's picture with the circle /will/ stick if each branch has more than one train
00:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> <glx> of course after you removed all the useless stuff auto installed by crappy apps downloaded from internet <-- luckily, person is very conservative about "i'm too scared to install anything"
00:27:13 <glx> oh so not an IE with 5 search bars ?
00:27:15 <markyisri> I transport large amounts of coal already. In fact one of those branches runs a 5-6 car coal train back and forth to a power station and a coal mine
00:27:27 <markyisri> I'm transporting pretty much all the mine has to offer
00:27:39 <markyisri> I'm also running a 64x64 map because larger maps seemed to be unmanageable
00:27:50 <FLHerne> markyisri: Longer distances tend to be more profitable
00:28:06 <markyisri> FLHerne: So you recommend that I run a larger map?
00:28:06 <nielsm> 64x64 you very quickly fill out
00:28:15 <glx> the best thing to do is to have an empty train entering the loading station as soon as the full train leaves
00:28:24 <FLHerne> Or from one side to the other of your 64-tile one ;-)
00:28:45 <glx> but 64x64 is better with trucks ;)
00:28:51 <FLHerne> Cargo payment is based on the distance travelled, and to some extent on the average speed
00:29:17 <markyisri> In OpenTTD it is better to be less efficient with distance?
00:29:36 <nielsm> (that's year 2011 progress)
00:29:49 <FLHerne> Average speed is higher for long distances, because you spend less time sitting around in stations and accelerating, and resource utilisation per unit-cargo-distance is also better
00:29:55 <nielsm> (and yes eventually did fund a few industries)
00:30:01 <markyisri> FLHerne: I understand
00:30:21 <markyisri> nielsm: If I run a no-industries map it's based solely on transporting passengers/mail. Correct?
00:30:56 <nielsm> it's harder to get off the ground, because cities start small
00:31:14 <nielsm> but when cities start growing everything balloons
00:31:22 <markyisri> nielsm: Which of these types is easier for a beginner like me?
00:31:38 <FLHerne> Industries; passengers are a nuisance
00:31:39 <markyisri> A more general question would be what size/type of game would you recommend for a beginner?
00:31:52 <glx> passengers are not the easy way at start
00:31:54 <nielsm> a flat 256x256 game with lots of industries
00:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're playing larger than 64x64, passengers is easier, because you tend to find two larger cities quite close to each other
00:32:06 <glx> then you get way too much passengers
00:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> which can easily sustain full passenger trains both ways
00:32:19 <markyisri> nielsm: I should give that a try then
00:32:40 <markyisri> Unfortunately I have to leave this chat
00:32:43 <FLHerne> The problem with passengers is the bidirectionality and fuzzy supply area, it's hard to move them in a controlled way
00:32:45 <markyisri> But thank you for the advice
00:32:47 <nielsm> also play with breakdowns turned off
00:33:00 <FLHerne> (without cargodist, which creates its own confusions)
00:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and with cargodist on :)
00:33:01 <markyisri> nielsm: I have not turned them off. I will tonight.
00:33:20 <glx> oh and build a bus line with 4 stations in cities you want to grow
00:33:35 <FLHerne> Of course, that's also what makes them fun once you've figured it out :P
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00:34:58 <glx> yeah webchat is not ideal :)
00:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really understand why he "had to leave"?
00:35:30 <ST2> he'll come back when next doubt appears xD
00:36:02 <Eddi|zuHause> some headlines make you scratch your head... "the town of Vittel is running out of water, because Nestle sells too much"
00:37:19 <glx> people of Vittel don't buy bottles
00:39:42 <nielsm> better get some sleep here too, gn
00:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but either Nestle needs to stop producing water bottles, or they need to build pipelines from elsewhere that brings the non-nestle water
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07:56:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the git equivalent of "hg pull -u"?
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10:40:39 <Wolf01> Eh, lego arctic stuff is nice, your son is right, you must buy it :P
10:41:36 <andythenorth> not showed him yet
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12:18:55 <peter1138> Hmm, silly spec, refer to a 4-byte header, to encode the message length.
12:19:17 <peter1138> But actually the length is 'encoded' as a text string, so "0020" would be a 20 character message.
12:19:39 <peter1138> It is technically 4 bytes, but...
12:20:18 <peter1138> Anyone actually use mouse-wheel map scrolling?
12:23:26 <nielsm> maybe someone who's actually using a trackpad would
12:23:44 <nielsm> I can imagine two-finder scrolling on a trackpad making sense for it
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12:24:35 <peter1138> andythenorth would know
12:25:04 <andythenorth> I turned on trackpad scroll yesterday
12:25:09 <peter1138> Hmm, shame my Mac died, mind you it wouldn't be running the current version anyway.
12:25:13 <andythenorth> I couldn't use it before beacuse broken
12:25:59 <peter1138> How does it work? Two fingers?
12:26:47 <andythenorth> (it scrolls left and right)
12:27:00 * andythenorth should type better
12:27:10 <andythenorth> or not irc and RL talk
12:32:30 <peter1138> Does it work with scrollbars too?
12:32:49 <andythenorth> it works with anything that would respond to mousewheel scroll
12:32:55 <peter1138> Hmm, do we have horizontal scrollbars?
12:33:09 <andythenorth> and on OS X you can shift-mousewheel for horizontal scroll, which it simulates
12:33:35 <peter1138> See, the issue is this feature is only supported for OS X.
12:33:55 <peter1138> So I've got it sort of working on Windows, but I can't really compare how it works.
12:34:20 <peter1138> Plus I've only got a mouse, with the awkward push the scrollwheel left/right action, which is shitty.
12:37:27 <andythenorth> I can see the problem
12:37:40 <andythenorth> can't think of any suggestions though :P
12:37:53 <peter1138> Actually, I'm dumb. I have a laptop.
12:37:56 <peter1138> Oh, but it runs Linux.
12:38:26 <peter1138> Also kinda old, so may not understand 2 fingers anyway.
12:39:01 <andythenorth> had a Sony years ago with some magic bit of trackpad that was the scroll track
12:40:01 <peter1138> I had one machine where it behaved differently depending on the driver, which sort of makes sense.
12:40:22 <peter1138> Hmm, Logitech stopped selling their standalone trackpad.
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13:22:16 <peter1138> Hmm, seems it was non-standard anyway, so anything that may work wouldn't mean much :p
13:29:54 <peter1138> Hmm, could do it with SDL as well. Scroll-left and -right are mapped to buttons there.
13:34:37 <peter1138> Not quite the same thing, I'm sure :p
13:39:29 <nielsm> someone will complain that scrolling will be in steps and not smooth, or similar
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14:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> what would you use that for, in terms of gameplay?
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14:28:29 <andythenorth> Wolf01: supplies ship
14:28:35 <andythenorth> not in Sam yet :P
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17:48:57 <andythenorth> Pikka: also cute
17:49:11 <andythenorth> also brake vans on pax trains? o_O
17:50:34 <Pikka> only under exceptional circumstances :)
17:52:45 <andythenorth> also I really like the trains they're building
17:54:47 <andythenorth> they make correct choices so far
17:58:07 <Pikka> and a lot of passenger trains for an AI that doesn't build passenger trains yet :)
18:02:13 <andythenorth> it's got full-load and no-load orders :P
18:02:26 <andythenorth> makes money though
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18:06:42 <Pikka> normally, it only transports cargos to industries which produce food, goods or nothing. But when it's building a second line into a terminus, it considers all cargos that the station accepts, instead of just what the "target" industry accepts. So you get emergent behaviour, like collecting passengers from FIRS hotels. :)
18:09:06 <Pikka> as for the brake vans, its definition is a wagon which carries nothing, and can go as fast as the wagons. So if the brakevan has a lower maximum speed than the passenger cars, it shouldn't build it.
18:10:48 <Alberth> a non-braking brakevan :)
18:19:40 <andythenorth> brakevan has no speed limit
18:20:17 <Pikka> of course, when it builds "real" passenger trains, no brakevans :) but that can wait
18:20:20 <andythenorth> well emergent behaviour is fun
18:20:32 <andythenorth> glad I didn't start an AI :P
18:20:38 <andythenorth> I'd be completely lost to the world
18:28:57 <Pikka> it's quite a rabbit hole
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18:54:18 <frosch123> TrueBrain: feel free to throw GDPR at it :)
19:07:15 <nielsm> time to put the CI to work again
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19:14:59 <nielsm> just replaced the HEPA filter in my air cleaner, the old filter felt much heavier than the new so I weighed them
19:15:22 <nielsm> appears the old filter had collected about 100 grams of tine particles over the past year
19:16:08 <nielsm> I'm glad I have that running, after getting that number
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20:39:42 <michi_cc> nielsm: Got an access violation at win32_m.cpp:89 (midiOutLongMsg) on the first TransmitSysexConst in Start
20:40:37 <nielsm> what os and midi driver?
20:41:03 <nielsm> also debug or release build?
20:41:33 <TrueBrain> lol @ frosch123 .. you had some fun writing that, didn't you?
20:42:53 <frosch123> i used it to add details to the table layout :)
20:42:57 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I can already tell you Person.name has to be changed in the Delete category: no, anominized only
20:43:45 <michi_cc> nielsm: Debug, VS2017, Win10, 64-bit
20:43:48 <TrueBrain> which can exist next to "invisible" btw
20:44:29 <nielsm> I have no idea how it should be able to fail, that part
20:45:37 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I would rename 'pending' into 'draft', as pending sounds like some system is stillw orking on it
20:46:03 <nielsm> actually, let me see if I can make a 64 bit build myself
20:46:15 <frosch123> TrueBrain: is the username so special? we have to keep account names to make banning effective, so how much more value is there in usernames?
20:46:16 <nielsm> last I tried that the compiler crashed with an internal error
20:46:19 <michi_cc> nielsm: I would suggest re-reading the docs for midiOutPrepareHeader, especially the part about what to set before calling it (and not after).
20:46:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: and will read it in more detail in the weekend; but your promise made me giggle :D
20:46:36 <TrueBrain> frosch123: Person.name != Person.username :)
20:46:50 <TrueBrain> we also track peoples real name, in general
20:46:50 <frosch123> well, it's not supposed to be a real name
20:47:02 <TrueBrain> our other systems do, hence the jump there
20:47:27 <TrueBrain> there is also an idoligy behind that: if you are asked for your real name and username, you are much less likely to use your real name in your username, by accident etc
20:48:06 <TrueBrain> possibly nice to make 'show my real name' / 'show my nickname'
20:48:19 <TrueBrain> but okay, if you meant username/nickname, sure
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20:49:05 <michi_cc> nielsm: I.e. if I modify TransmitSysex accordingly, it doesn't crash :)
20:49:47 <nielsm> I guess it's a difference in 32 bit and 64 bit mmsystem
20:50:00 <nielsm> with 32 bit being more lax
20:52:43 <TrueBrain> frosch123: come to think of it, even for nicknames I think it would be nice .. storing that for ever seems silly
20:52:53 <TrueBrain> and how would it make banning any more or less effective
20:53:13 <TrueBrain> I think banning should be done on the link to that Person. Which we store, for, say, 3 months
20:53:30 <TrueBrain> (we cannot ban someone for life btw; but that is just the fine-print)
20:53:41 <frosch123> if a person registers with their github account
20:53:49 <frosch123> i want to ban that github account
20:53:57 <frosch123> so i need to store the github login name
20:54:03 <nielsm> let me just try to make a 64 bit build again...
20:54:04 <TrueBrain> so we ban that github account; we can still change Person.name into 'banned' :)
20:54:15 <TrueBrain> but we can blacklist the link data
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20:56:12 <TrueBrain> either way, have to read it with more attention to really comment :) Too sleepy tonight for that :)
20:58:12 * andythenorth opts out of processing
20:58:54 <frosch123> michi_cc: i would write it on the same line, but i also deliberately ignored that on some other PR, just to not annoy with details :)
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20:59:56 <frosch123> just "\n" without "{" is forbidden
21:00:36 <nielsm> michi_cc I can't reprouce the crash, but I see it's wrong per MSDN so preparing fix :)
21:23:42 <michi_cc> nielsm: I can hear music :p
21:30:33 <michi_cc> nielsm: It sounds like always (which is good here) on the bog standard windows synth.
21:31:42 <andythenorth> Pikka: these AIs are very civil
21:33:18 <andythenorth> yes, but not as a spectator sport
21:33:30 <andythenorth> if they were more aggressive in gameplay it would be boring
21:33:33 <andythenorth> but I am just watching :P
21:34:14 <nielsm> michi_cc: I suppose the more interesting testing would be whether it also works as well on less powerful machines and on older versions of windows
21:34:28 <nielsm> but I don't really have any setup to test that myself
21:34:54 <nielsm> but I _think_ I've limited API calls to things present back to win95
21:36:25 <nielsm> there, pushed the midiOutPrepareHeader fix
21:36:57 <glx> hard to say as MSDN info about minimum version is not really accurate now
21:37:54 <michi_cc> Windows 2000 can most of the time be read as Win 9x, too.
21:38:55 <andythenorth> actually it's a bit less civil about RVs :)
21:39:49 <nielsm> the thing I'm most unsure about re. compatibility might be timeSetEvent with callback function, and second place are the critical section things
21:39:51 <glx> but I think midiOut stuff was already in win9x, for low level access
21:40:07 <nielsm> yes that api dates back to windows 3.0 afaik
21:45:51 <nielsm> I'll download the october 2001 version and install it on my WinMe retro pc
21:46:33 <glx> I'm checking in mingw winapi to see if there are guards around the functions
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21:49:26 <andythenorth> somebody did it already :P
21:49:45 <glx> it's crazy how having boost slows the search in files
21:49:47 <Pikka> scuddles, what a surprise
21:50:21 <andythenorth> scuddles is a mystery to me
21:51:06 <Pikka> haven't spoken to him for a while... mostly because I'm never online on steam any more
21:53:57 <glx> nielsm: critical section seems ok too
21:55:34 <andythenorth> shall I tell SYL there's a GT 3 in UKRS 3 o_O
21:55:41 <andythenorth> would be rude not to include it
21:56:27 <andythenorth> it's not so bad, it's just 'why?'
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23:03:25 <nielsm> in case anyone vetoes my PR for removing the dmusic driver, I have an alternate patch ready that adds reliable volume control to it instead ;)
23:05:06 <nielsm> vacation is over for me
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