IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-04-01
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00:06:26 <andythenorth> you could add up the cargo in the consist
00:06:45 <andythenorth> but the switches to handle variable lengths would be insane
00:06:58 <andythenorth> you'd need a code generator
00:07:03 <andythenorth> it would be a showboating trick
00:07:19 <supermop> the length isn't variable
00:07:26 <andythenorth> the length of the consist is
00:07:53 <supermop> its would always be cab + 3 chunks of trailer
00:08:12 <andythenorth> oh it's a truck, not a train?
00:09:01 <andythenorth> yeah just offset to neighbouring vehicles then
00:09:06 <andythenorth> it's still painful
00:09:11 <andythenorth> but will work fine
00:11:23 <supermop> i just want the switch to be based on the total load of the truck vs its capacity
00:13:44 <andythenorth> query property of nth vehicle
00:14:08 <andythenorth> I am looking for old Horse code that did it
00:14:12 <andythenorth> but can't find it :P
00:14:34 <andythenorth> crazy 3-part Horse had cargo on first unit, and sprites on second unit
00:14:51 <andythenorth> so it had to check neighbouring unit for correct loading/loaded sprites
00:14:59 <andythenorth> but I deleted all that
00:15:34 <supermop> i'd need to add the value for parts 1 2 and 3
00:16:18 <supermop> i wonder tho, if i use PARENT instead of SELF?
00:17:11 <supermop> i guess i can put all the capacity on part 1, and 2 and 3 will have 0 capacity
00:17:35 <andythenorth> something like that
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00:23:54 <Thedarkb> Is there any sign of OpenTTD being updated to use modern packages?
00:24:04 <Thedarkb> At the moment OpenTTD is a security risk
00:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of package and what kind of risk?
00:46:53 <Thedarkb> Eddi|zuHause, Debian and Ubuntu
00:46:58 <Thedarkb> They both use outdated packages.
00:47:42 <Thedarkb> libicu52 has some security issue
00:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Thedarkb: we are not responsible for what the distributions do. you should talk to them
00:48:07 <Thedarkb> I'll build it myself in future.
01:22:17 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: it's not a distro thing, ottd doesn't work with newer versions of icu
01:22:43 <LordAro> they removed the text layout engine
01:25:21 <Thedarkb> And the version of icu it's on was removed from the repo with a big red SECURITY tag.
01:27:35 <LordAro> ah, you mean the version of icu that's required with the prebuilt binaries from opentts.org?
01:28:00 <LordAro> that's a known issue with the age of the compile farm, which should hopefully be fixed in the next few weeksish
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04:11:44 <Pikka> if it's one vehicle carrying one cargo, I'd just put all the cargo in the head unit like you said, and read that for the cargo sprites
04:13:02 <Pikka> mind you I think articulated road vehicles are a BAD FEATURE ;)
04:38:00 <supermop> Pikka: still need to figure out how i specify the other_veh offset
04:38:19 <supermop> but yes, this whole grf is an exploration of bad features
04:38:58 <Pikka> if you put the cargo in the head, can't you just read the parent object?
04:39:56 <supermop> for the messed up curve info
04:42:59 <supermop> Its ANDY's fault -he put vehicles in steel town . so l feel compelled to make a truck to deliver them
04:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "Path of Exile: Royale"... i think it started...
04:48:26 <supermop> so what is in progress in Pikka land?
04:49:14 <Pikka> brakevans at the moment... we all love brakevans
04:49:59 <supermop> yes, the original bad feature
04:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i hear people get religious about whether brake vans go on the beginning or end of the train
04:56:04 <supermop> one after each wagon
05:16:20 * Flygon places brake van... in the middle of the train
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06:38:19 <Pikka> I drew a flat wagon... now I suppose I need to draw cargos
06:38:47 <Pikka> where's the IH cargo repository? :D
06:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "India's railway company got 28 million applications for 90000 open jobs"
06:52:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "After Brexit, residents of the UK will no longer be eligible to hold .eu domain names"
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08:26:53 <Flygon> Maybe I should've given the Opers a poke.
08:27:13 <Flygon> Supernets has been going everywhere again.
08:27:45 <Flygon> But our IRC network pre-emptively G-Lined it thanks to scanning features before it could do a thing. :V
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08:33:06 <Flygon> They've managed to get themselves DDoS'd multiple times, btw.
08:33:10 <Flygon> ...completely unsurprisingly.
08:33:24 <Flygon> When you spam the Mafia, the Mafia DDoS's you back. :V
08:54:08 <cHawk> hah, he bypassed my autoignore
08:54:22 <cHawk> I igonire everyone who mentiones 4 or more nicks in one line
08:59:43 <sla_ro|master> you should set it at 2 nicks now ;p
09:18:34 <andythenorth> Pikka: automated chassis drawing innit :P
09:19:54 <Pikka> what about automated cargo drawing though
09:20:21 <andythenorth> I automated cargo positioning :P
09:20:35 <andythenorth> it doesn't know how to make actual pixels
09:22:00 <andythenorth> 2x means more detailed cargos eh :)
09:24:44 <andythenorth> 1 *really nice* tarp? :P
09:30:00 * andythenorth goes back to painting
09:30:02 <Pikka> 8 variants of goods on flatcar... tarp tarp tarp tarp, cabledrum flatthing container container. Yes?
09:30:25 <andythenorth> you want me to find pictures of open-topped bulk containers? :P
09:32:08 <andythenorth> one angle drawn is not enough :P
09:33:26 <andythenorth> can you tell it's originally the UKRS 2 grain hopper? :P
09:33:59 <andythenorth> sprite has travelled far
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10:18:12 <Wolf01> So I have a dramatic idea for an april fool, but I need help from a moderator and all the parts involved :P
10:40:54 <LANJesus> change all the threads on the forum to have the same title
10:41:40 <Wolf01> That might be difficult to recover, but sure it's funny :P
10:42:58 <LordAro> probably the sort of thing that you could do with some source code editing
10:43:05 <LordAro> no need for actual data loss
10:43:09 <Wolf01> Ha! Team rocket took control of the italian pokémon community
10:43:15 <LordAro> i'd imagine you'd need orudge for that though
11:08:02 <Alkel_U3> So, what feature is getting chopped off of OpenTTD this year? Is it trains finally? Never could get my head around those, anyway...
11:08:50 <Wolf01> I wish we should have thought about this before: TL;DR lock topic, ban me and andy for today, say we are closing the NRT project because we received a C&D from OTTD devs
11:10:43 <Wolf01> The best part would be without andy knowing XDXDXD
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13:13:29 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r28001 /branches/1.8 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2018-04-01 13:13:24 +0200 )
13:13:30 <DorpsGek> [1.8] -Update: Documentation
13:14:37 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r28002 /tags/1.8.0 (11 files in 3 dirs) (2018-04-01 13:14:34 +0200 )
13:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that must be an april fools day prank, there can't possibly be an actual release
13:15:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, look at the revision numbers
13:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> no way they can be real
13:26:39 <Wolf01> So, what's the prank? :D
13:27:23 <frosch123> we are moving to github :p
13:28:09 <Wolf01> Make fake commits on svn after moving, just to troll people
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13:38:49 <Rubidium> the prank is that I'm still listed as active!
13:42:37 <TrueBrain> the prank is that this started as a joke 10 years ago ... :P
13:44:10 <Eddi|zuHause> OpenTTD has been a joke for all of the past 10 years?
13:45:36 <Alberth> of course, you don't think that you would seriously consider to work on some vague project for the next 10 years, right?
13:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> so not only the cake was a lie then :/
13:47:18 <Alberth> most people writing history never had the intention to do that initially
13:47:31 <TrueBrain> I was refering to the release schedule, but okay :)
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14:01:06 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.8.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | #openttd.dev if this channel is really spammy"
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14:37:07 <Eddi|zuHause> haha. fooled you!!
14:51:08 *** Wolf01 is now known as Samu
14:51:19 <Samu> Haha! Fooled you all this time
14:51:42 <Samu> Now, who is the prank master?
14:51:52 *** Samu is now known as Wolf01
14:52:38 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Samu was last seen in #openttd 56 seconds ago: <Samu> Now, who is the prank master?
14:53:43 <TrueBrain> and the jokes are getting worse and worse by the minute ... :P
14:57:33 <TrueBrain> in Bamboo you can make a "Final task", tasks that are executed no matter if the build succeeded or not
14:57:40 <TrueBrain> sounds like a perfect place to notify of build failed/success
14:57:46 <TrueBrain> but ... you cannot ask that information there
14:58:20 <TrueBrain> everytime they have stuff that isALMOST there .. but those last few steps ... they failed to take
14:59:55 <LordAro> sounds like the arguments against bamboo are getting stronger :p
15:00:19 <TrueBrain> wow .. that is a really long time ago that finger failed ..
15:00:53 <frosch123> i am sure you can blame it on bamboo somehow
15:00:59 <frosch123> or some mysql query :p
15:02:06 <TrueBrain> a lot of permission denieds
15:02:25 <TrueBrain> yeah .. no files were uploaded too
15:02:30 <TrueBrain> okay .. what went wrong ..
15:06:24 <TrueBrain> and Bamboo cleaned up the release after this .. lol
15:06:31 <TrueBrain> publish script will now fail when this happens again
15:06:36 <TrueBrain> and we have to rebuild it all :)
15:07:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: takes another hour or so for the release to be ready
15:07:27 <frosch123> some hare did hide all the eggs?
15:07:32 <TrueBrain> problems was that openssh got upgraded, and the current key was no longer accepted
15:08:15 <TrueBrain> I just need to make a Docker that runs 'make regression' now :)
15:10:23 <LordAro> doesn't appear to be running make...
15:12:18 <TrueBrain> didnt I just said that?
15:13:38 <LordAro> yes, you should do that
15:19:52 <TrueBrain> but so now GitHub tells AWS SNS tells AWS Lambda tells Bamboo tells GitHub
15:20:21 <TrueBrain> but it is pretty nice
15:20:35 <TrueBrain> saved a lot of setting up our own infrastructure to handle GitHub API
15:21:00 <TrueBrain> and Dockers are being created by the Docker Hub Automated Build
15:21:03 <TrueBrain> which is also very nice
15:21:19 <TrueBrain> and the Dockerfiles are on GitHub too
15:21:23 <LordAro> how much the AWS cost?
15:21:23 <TrueBrain> lovely transparent :)
15:21:37 <TrueBrain> SNS and Lambda is free up till 1 miljoen PRs per month
15:21:58 <TrueBrain> so any comments, edit, push, etc
15:22:08 <TrueBrain> @calc 1000000 / 30 / 24 / 60
15:22:08 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 23.1481481481
15:22:15 <TrueBrain> 23 changes per minute
15:22:19 <TrueBrain> I think we are fine :P
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15:22:29 <LordAro> can you limit it to just pushes?
15:22:40 <LordAro> no need to send anything else to it, right?
15:22:42 <TrueBrain> no; pushes on GitHub is when you accept a PR
15:22:46 <TrueBrain> I limited it to pull_request
15:22:52 <TrueBrain> which is a very big domain
15:23:01 <TrueBrain> talk to GitHub API guys :P
15:23:19 <TrueBrain> but really ... 23 changes per minute ..
15:23:42 <TrueBrain> if OpenTTD becomes that popular, we can pay AWS :P
15:23:55 <LordAro> pretty sure even ansible or golang don't get those levels of PR changes
15:25:53 <TrueBrain> its funny, but harsh :P
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15:50:35 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is published
16:06:08 <TrueBrain> okay, we can now run multiple tests on a PR
16:06:18 <TrueBrain> that could include coding-style checks, etc
16:14:29 <TrueBrain> yippie; this works :D
16:14:48 <TrueBrain> that is something for tomorrow :)
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16:52:30 <andythenorth> Pikka: what timespan for 10 engines?
16:53:18 <andythenorth> 4-4-0, black 5 or castle, 37, 68
16:53:36 <andythenorth> 1900, 1930, 1960, 1990
16:53:42 <Pikka> see that's what I thought
16:54:42 <andythenorth> but 19 of those can be ignored
16:55:10 <andythenorth> so I have 26 non-weird types
16:55:22 <andythenorth> and you can lose 1/3 of those, because I cover more time
16:55:45 <andythenorth> and you won't be as obsessive and weird as me
16:56:02 <Pikka> you don't have a 4-4-0 :P
16:56:16 <andythenorth> I have some length rules
16:56:28 <andythenorth> so it had to become a 4-2-2
16:56:32 <andythenorth> smaller wheel :P
16:57:15 <andythenorth> if you only have one engine per generation you don't have to balance anything
16:57:22 <andythenorth> and generations are 25 years
16:57:57 <Pikka> yes, but then one engine has to do everything
16:58:06 <Pikka> so "everything" becomes the same
16:58:10 <andythenorth> it *is* kind of boring to play with
16:58:19 <Pikka> which admittedly is how most people play TTD
16:58:26 <andythenorth> original horse idea was 20 engines
16:58:30 <andythenorth> but I couldn't enjoy it
16:59:44 <Pikka> the first loco in 10CC turned out to be the hardest to decide on, because it sets the tone for the decade-and-a-half that it's the *only* locomotive, and it requires the second locomotive to be a contrast but not an obvious 1:1 replacement, otherwise *that* becomes the only locomotive
16:59:44 <andythenorth> you want all RAIL / ELRL?
17:00:11 <andythenorth> you could do a 'full' standard gauge roster of 5, and a 'full' narrow gauge roster of 5
17:00:50 <andythenorth> or 4 freight, 4 branch, 4 express
17:01:29 <andythenorth> what is the first loco currently? o_O
17:04:25 <Pikka> feels like the right sort of loco for getting started... not a big express, but not a tiny tank engine either
17:07:09 <andythenorth> what would be next?
17:11:07 <Pikka> Gresley K2, then the Jubilee
17:12:18 <Pikka> so they increase in speed and power, but the older ones stay useful on smaller trains, especially with the low wagon speeds
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17:17:08 <supermop> you end up pretty close to original vehicles.. just no tim or asia star
17:17:43 <andythenorth> Pikka: so what tech tree?
17:17:56 <andythenorth> what are the lines?
17:18:04 * andythenorth has played too much Tanks
17:18:29 <supermop> its tough to do without
17:18:50 <Pikka> then don't do without... but something has to go. It's tough, eh?
17:19:31 <andythenorth> depends if 'branch' is a thing
17:19:41 <supermop> the closest thing to bloat original vehicles had was too many 60s diesels
17:19:51 <Flygon> supermop: I still declare Victoria DMU king. :3
17:20:02 <Flygon> Won't stop manufacturing VLocity DMUs.
17:20:02 <Pikka> 'branch' is not a thing in TTD, andy :P
17:20:07 <supermop> compared with no diesels at all at end of game
17:20:19 <andythenorth> original TTD has the tank engines and DMUs
17:20:30 <andythenorth> but I always lost money with them in original TTD :P
17:20:38 <andythenorth> they're only good for marginal routes
17:20:42 <andythenorth> and marginal routes are no good
17:20:45 <supermop> if you are add 40 years to the front of the original run, you are making it even harder to fit in MUs
17:20:57 <andythenorth> if there's enough pax to make money, there's enough for a big train
17:21:03 <Flygon> It's like that Pizza comic where that guy is send to hell and told that he can have a Pizza but it will burn away his mouth then he eats the Pizza and melts his mouth away but keeps eating it anyway and the devil tells the guy to stop eating the Pizza because he's genuinely concerned with his Pizza consumption.
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17:21:23 <andythenorth> Pikka: 'always big trains' :P
17:21:27 <andythenorth> then it's easier
17:21:54 <supermop> axing the 92/avocet to fit in an emu/dmu makes the electrics have no progression as well
17:21:54 <andythenorth> no need for balancing shenanigans
17:22:07 <andythenorth> ok so 'always small trains'
17:22:14 <Pikka> but with limited vehicles, you can't get too niche either way
17:22:37 <andythenorth> I found it really hard to balance Horse without 4 types per generation
17:22:50 <Pikka> but nor can you go too middle-of-the-road, because then you have multiple locos which are practically the same
17:22:56 <andythenorth> and I had to cap speed on freight vehicles, which is a total PITA
17:22:57 <supermop> only one freight diesel and freight electric after 1960, rest is mus
17:24:27 <supermop> so what do you think of 20/47/86/43/92/66 pikka?
17:24:43 <supermop> that only leaves room for 4 steams, and no MUs
17:24:53 <Pikka> you got 5/6, well done :P
17:25:36 <supermop> i feel the lack of a first and last decade electric is a big problem in original set
17:25:43 <andythenorth> electrics bloat the set
17:26:00 <supermop> andythenorth: i had it as 89 and 58 for maximum british styling
17:26:09 <Pikka> technically mine's 59 rather than a 66 :P
17:26:11 <supermop> but that seemed like an affectation
17:26:20 <andythenorth> Pikka: considered just inventing stuff? o_O
17:26:24 <andythenorth> I found it helped :P
17:26:38 <Pikka> people seem to prefer "realism" though ;)
17:26:51 <supermop> andythenorth: someone is already doing a fictionalized train set
17:27:05 <andythenorth> everything is super-real in Horse
17:27:10 <andythenorth> you just have to squint
17:27:25 <Pikka> anyway, the 92 is justified. You have the AL6 for about 30 years, then it splits into the 92 for even heavier freight, and the 321 for passengers.
17:27:49 <andythenorth> electro-diesels solve a lot of problems
17:28:01 <andythenorth> small engines off the wires, big engines on the wires
17:28:05 <andythenorth> also super-realisms
17:28:20 <supermop> what about pre-50s electrics? a bit out of place in britain, but i think it makes an interesting trade off
17:28:33 <supermop> not much to choose from
17:28:39 <Pikka> I had to remind myself that electrification is basically cosmetic in TTD... it's not exactly hard to drag the convert tool over the whole map :P
17:29:14 <supermop> Pikka: make the wires much more expensive, and and some BAD_FEATURES to the running costs
17:29:34 <supermop> which is how i make sense of trolleybi
17:29:48 * andythenorth does 'well I dunno' face
17:30:25 <supermop> though the raison d'etre for trolleybi was more 'someone made ELRD, i guess someone should make ELRD vehicles
17:30:37 <andythenorth> I think Horse is luxurious at 26 RAIL / ELRL for 150 years
17:30:43 <andythenorth> and it could be done in 12
17:30:57 <Pikka> I just wanted to draw less tbh :P
17:31:20 <andythenorth> some of my engines are 'refurbed'
17:31:27 <andythenorth> just paint the window surrounds black
17:31:32 <andythenorth> and upgrade by 600HP
17:32:26 <andythenorth> also try GWR or LMS prototypes :P
17:32:34 <andythenorth> they had standardised boilers, cabs etc
17:33:38 <andythenorth> DMU - pax and mail refits?
17:34:31 <andythenorth> what gap for generations?
17:35:29 <andythenorth> and generations for rest of set? o_O
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17:36:59 <supermop> good enough for 2050 tbh
17:37:18 <supermop> do they have door on front?
17:37:26 <andythenorth> but eh, realisms
17:37:52 <supermop> i like the visual change of non door / door in original dmus
17:38:46 <andythenorth> I 'licensed' all UK electrics to be OHLE, 3rd rail never happened :P
17:38:52 <supermop> too strong as i recall
17:38:59 <andythenorth> electrify everything after 1970
17:39:09 <andythenorth> one big electric loco, one big MU
17:39:14 <supermop> 4 rep was the one that pushed an unpowered rake right?
17:40:57 <andythenorth> 1930: 2-8-0 freight, 4-6-4 express tank
17:41:07 <andythenorth> 1960: class 37, class 74
17:41:56 <andythenorth> you're done in 8 there
17:47:08 <andythenorth> I'd add a hoover
17:47:53 <andythenorth> and maybe a pendolino or something
17:54:22 <supermop> code 10 more locomotives, of which 2 are randomly enabled at each game start
17:55:41 <supermop> andythenorth: do you recall how i need to wrap my other_veh_curve_info offset?
17:57:24 <andythenorth> no ask Eddi|zuHause ;)
17:57:58 <andythenorth> Pikka: alternately, choose engines by colour :P
17:58:08 <andythenorth> do a red engine, a black engine, a green engine etc :P
17:58:15 <andythenorth> and make them 100 years model life
17:58:31 <andythenorth> 'Toby', 'Edward', 'Henry' :P
17:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> red engine is always the fastest?
18:10:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: depends on the episide
18:11:08 <andythenorth> usually the Blue engine is fastest
18:11:13 <andythenorth> unless he has a fault
18:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think i ever watched an episode, anyway
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18:17:04 <Thedarkb-X40> Is there any way to make a train transfer some of its cargo but not all of it?
18:17:14 <Thedarkb-X40> I have a train carrying coal, iron ore and clay
18:17:24 <Thedarkb-X40> and I want to drop off the clay at a different station.
18:23:18 <andythenorth> only if you get lucky with cargo-dist
18:23:32 <andythenorth> oh if they're different cargos it will work
18:26:36 <alluke> damn i love uk rave scene
18:26:39 <Pikka> todo tomorrow: teach AI to refit trucks...
18:26:46 <alluke> got to see darren styles yesterday
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19:22:45 <supermop> ERROR: "moprv65.nml", line 31617: Unrecognized identifier 'other_veh_curve_info' encountered
19:23:06 <supermop> other_veh_curve_info is listen as a variable in the spec tho
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19:28:37 <supermop> i changed to other_veh_curve_info, (offset)
19:28:53 <supermop> but then i get " Switch-block requires 4 parameters, encountered 5"
19:29:00 <supermop> so that must not be it either
19:34:10 <supermop> other_veh_curve_info(offset) gives error "other_veh_curve_info' is not defined as a function"
19:34:59 <supermop> going to take a break
19:38:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea how that is meant to work, i always used the var[] syntax
19:39:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and who knows whether nrt-nml is actually based on the current version of nml?
19:41:44 <Thedarkb-X40> I don't know what I did but I made the loan scale with inflation.
19:42:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it does that automatically
19:42:39 <Thedarkb-X40> Most other servers I've played on kept it capped at 300,000
19:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> max loan always scaled with inflation, and starting loan also scales with inflation for many years now
19:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly those servers ran without inflation?
19:44:08 <Thedarkb-X40> That's probably the reason.
19:49:55 <Thedarkb-X40> I keep spending more money than I'm making.
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22:03:06 <Thedarkb-X40> Pathfinding issues
22:04:03 <Thedarkb-X40> Waypoints to the rescue
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continue to next day ⏵
