IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-03-04
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04:21:10 <Mazur> ``1``It's a pity there's no setting for raw industry construction in a chosen place like the processign plants, for solo play, when an industry has disappeared but you want it back.
04:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure that exists
04:53:37 <Mazur> It used to, but now it's [None], [Secondary only], or [Secondary funding + Primary prospecting].
04:54:01 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it was moved to cheats?
04:56:24 <Mazur> raw_industry_construction
04:57:20 <ST2> and that means: 0 = none, 1 = as other industries, 2 = prospecting
04:57:50 <Mazur> Didn;t think I saw primaries, must have looked wrong.
05:00:59 <Mazur> Ah, 0 is Secondary only, 1 is what I wnat.
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08:27:43 <peter1138> Hmm, so VS 2017 working...
08:28:04 <Alberth> that's a good thing, isn't it? :)
08:32:14 <peter1138> Hmm, "No available language packs"... what was the fix? :S
08:34:51 <peter1138> Clean and rebuild seemed to do it.
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09:09:22 <peter1138> Hmm, we still can't commit with git can we? :S
09:30:30 <andythenorth> I can't commit with any of them :)
09:30:33 <andythenorth> probably for the best
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09:40:54 <peter1138> "Database Error : Too many connections"
09:41:02 <andythenorth> yeah, I crashed it
09:41:12 <andythenorth> too much traffic from #openttd
10:12:24 <Alberth> 6680 looks to me like he wants to push more goods into the next factory than openttd can handle
10:13:46 <Alberth> 6664 I have no clue what it says
10:15:03 <andythenorth> Paul has fixed some sprites
10:15:05 <andythenorth> it's probably fine
10:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> 6680 is a known limitation of the game
10:16:02 <Eddi|zuHause> industry can only produce 255 units per production callback
10:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> or rather, per "move to station" call
10:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> which is run on the tileloop, so once every 256 for every tile
10:17:07 <andythenorth> as you said in 2010 Eddi|zuHause
10:18:42 <andythenorth> but eh, it's not as simple as I hoped :P
10:18:54 <andythenorth> I thought maybe it just had a flag not being cleared
10:19:08 <andythenorth> station_cmd.cpp is a complicated place
10:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, the ticket in itself is valid as there is no indication that there even is such a limit on production. also, i have no clue how arbitrary the limit of 255 units of cargo is
10:29:11 <Alberth> 255 is max value of a byte, which looks totally reasonable as max in TTD to me
10:31:25 <andythenorth> closed a few more
10:31:34 <Alberth> I don't really see why it needs to be higher, you can easily add more factories and distribute the cargo. Game-play wise, that's probably also more fun, as it needs consideration how to do that, and it needs more tiles
10:31:51 <andythenorth> it can be higher in newgrf, I'm ~certain
10:31:59 <andythenorth> I think the limit is 65k or so with production cb
10:32:13 <andythenorth> but I'm not interested in confirming that :P
10:33:44 <Alberth> 6658 is a known bug in the readme, afaik
10:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is production once per industry tick, not per industrytile, i think
10:34:32 <Alberth> not sure what you're saying about 65k
10:34:46 <Alberth> oh, not about 6658 :)
10:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 6658 cannot be solved without switching to proper 3D models
10:37:08 <andythenorth> ok it's known I close
10:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> ... at which point you're better off starting from scratch
10:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> sprite sorting by bounding boxes gets to a limit when the bounding boxes get too big
10:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you could go the CETS way and cut up ships into smaller sprites with smaller bounding boxes
10:41:35 <andythenorth> ships aren't articulated?
10:41:56 <andythenorth> but eh, cdist and conditional orders
10:43:01 <Eddi|zuHause> is it really conditional, and not just implicit?
10:43:06 <andythenorth> the train isn't going to C so of course the passengers unload no?
10:43:13 <andythenorth> check the orders in the screenshot Eddi|zuHause :)
10:43:48 <andythenorth> hmm my diagnosis is wrong though
10:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> how does it ever reach order 2?
10:46:11 <andythenorth> also can cargodist evaluate through jumps?
10:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it can, but it will assumes either the jump will always be skipped or always be taken, it cannot really do a prediction based on history
10:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think here it always assumes the jump is taken, so effectively the train will only ever go to 3
10:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the rest of the order list is ignored by cargodist
10:50:12 <andythenorth> I loaded the save, the behaviour suggests that cargodist is assuming the train won't go to 3
10:50:28 <andythenorth> it creates and destroys the link, I can see it appearing and disappearing
10:50:37 <andythenorth> so it finds the link and loads at C
10:51:00 <andythenorth> but the link is then destroyed (for whatever reason), so it unloads at B
10:51:30 <andythenorth> oh if it's symmetric, there's no backlink
10:51:33 <andythenorth> due to the conditional order
10:51:44 <Eddi|zuHause> without testing, i would assume it creates the link because a train actually went there, but then destroys it again because it doesn't find an orderlist supporting that link
10:53:25 <andythenorth> on the return trip, the trains from B to C reload the passengers that want to go to A
10:53:39 <andythenorth> because at that point there's a C-A link
10:53:48 <andythenorth> conditional orders always were a bad idea
10:54:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i think some of the cases can be solved if the game remembered whether the jump was taken last time
10:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> also, this specific case of "jump back to where you just came from" order might deserve a special treatment in cargodist
10:58:54 <andythenorth> ok I've played enough FS today :P
10:59:12 <andythenorth> there aren't many 'level up' rewards
10:59:15 <andythenorth> and not enough XP
10:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can advance by ingame purchases?
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11:30:23 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: the small map with seven towns and two of each industry is starting to feel a bit cramped for space now, trying to get all of the industry chains going certainly takes a looong time
11:33:29 <SpComb> although I made the mistake of leaving the game in fastforward mode for the best part of 1940-1995 or so, when all of the best trains are out
11:33:42 <SpComb> now it's just europaloks for everything
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13:18:51 * LordAro playing with clang-format again
13:26:36 * andythenorth wondering why ships cache non-CC sprites
13:27:08 <andythenorth> given extensive use of reload_newgrfs, it's probably an invalid issue :P
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14:13:08 <LordAro> some formatty goodness
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14:51:31 <Samu> Wolf01: i just had an idea for your roads
14:52:05 <Samu> variable max speed, depending on "weather"
14:52:39 <Wolf01> We don't really have weather
14:52:40 <Samu> proximity to local authority
14:58:14 <Alberth> Samu: just set the speed limit yourself, as it's constant anyway
15:03:44 <Borg> recession now have extra depth...
15:04:02 <Borg> power plants get less coal.. less electricity production..
15:04:32 <andythenorth> more recession :P
15:04:42 <andythenorth> so what does the grf do then Borg? o_O
15:05:29 <Borg> uff.. recesion over.. :)
15:05:46 <Borg> but its building up now..
15:06:52 <Borg> between coal producution up -> transport -> power plant output adjust
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15:07:16 <Borg> lol.. but should not drop to 0..
15:07:49 <andythenorth> what does the electricity do?
15:08:01 <andythenorth> is it a transportable cargo?
15:08:40 <supermop> ugh need to enumerate so many cargoes to disallow
15:08:54 <Borg> andythenorth: of course its not transportable
15:09:18 <Borg> electricity is needed for secondary industries.. for production..
15:09:22 <Borg> no electricity.. no production at all
15:09:30 <supermop> like.. does paper go in box vans?
15:09:45 <supermop> it goes in big rolls on flatbeds,
15:09:50 <Alberth> make an "allow" list and disallow everything else
15:10:04 <supermop> but what about 10 ream boxes of printer paper
15:10:13 <Borg> fuck.. catastrofen.. <30%
15:10:23 <andythenorth> paper goes in box vans
15:10:27 <andythenorth> don't overthink it
15:10:39 <andythenorth> mostly you want 2 or 3 vehicle options per cargo
15:10:50 <supermop> Alberth: i think box trucks should be ready to transport as yet unmade cargos
15:10:50 <andythenorth> only restrict labels that would be stupid
15:11:41 <Alberth> just do containers for everything :p
15:11:43 <supermop> currently restrict classes passengers, bulk, oversized, liquid, armoured, and livestock explicitly
15:11:49 <Alberth> not so eye-cnady-ish though :(
15:12:00 <supermop> also i explicitly allow beer and fruit
15:12:04 <andythenorth> so I should name the ships in Sam, right?
15:12:31 <andythenorth> 'Tanker (Small)' and 'Tanker (Large)' are not very engaging :P
15:12:38 <andythenorth> I'll do cat breeds
15:12:48 <andythenorth> and fall back to rivers and glaciers as usual
15:12:55 <supermop> how about Tanker (Samuel) and Tanker (Samantha)
15:13:04 <andythenorth> yes for April 1 dates only
15:13:22 <supermop> i thought about special liveries on certain days
15:13:40 <andythenorth> give them santa hats
15:13:46 <supermop> i think one tram might have a livery only available if you build it on my birthday
15:14:03 <supermop> can recall if left that in
15:14:13 <supermop> tram switches are like 10k lines
15:14:17 <andythenorth> so are we fixing NRT?
15:14:24 <andythenorth> or am I wasting the afternoon making up ship names?
15:14:47 <Alberth> wasting? it's important work! :)
15:14:49 <supermop> name types of roads after famous cats
15:15:07 <supermop> what 'bugs' are left?
15:15:29 <andythenorth> the caching that doesn't update
15:15:35 <supermop> supplies go in box vans?
15:15:35 <andythenorth> which we don't have a repro savegame for :P
15:16:11 <supermop> beans seem like they should too
15:19:45 <andythenorth> I should write some html thing
15:19:59 <andythenorth> that matches up FIRS cargos and classes, and what they go in
15:19:59 <supermop> what about transformers?
15:20:05 <andythenorth> robots in disguise
15:20:11 <andythenorth> they go in box vans
15:20:26 <supermop> small motors and generators could go i imagine
15:20:39 <andythenorth> electrical machines are your choice
15:21:40 <andythenorth> are you enabling refit by label?
15:22:00 <supermop> box vans disallowing
15:22:10 <supermop> so new unknown cargos go in box vans
15:23:04 <andythenorth> and then just knock out any which are both Piece and SomethingElse where SomethingElse would look silly
15:24:44 <andythenorth> I allow all Piece, Express, Armoured and Liquid in box vans
15:25:01 <andythenorth> with a special case to knock out Tourists, which are express Because Reasons
15:28:31 <andythenorth> so how do I repro the NRT bug?
15:32:06 <andythenorth> I have TrollyBi 0.1.2
15:33:05 <supermop> you need something with dual mode trucks
15:33:18 <supermop> like mop generic RVs
15:33:47 <supermop> build a dual mode truck in electric depot it will always spark
15:34:04 <supermop> build it in non-electric depot it will always smoke
15:39:12 <supermop> how do i make it so these mail trams dont refit to huge amounts of cargo
15:39:29 <supermop> (same number crates of x as bags of mail)
15:41:01 <andythenorth> ok I've got a save
15:42:31 <andythenorth> and use the capacity cb
15:42:41 <supermop> what if i make reefer disallow piece goods then manually allow fish and food
15:42:54 <supermop> shorter than listing every other piece good
15:43:07 <andythenorth> I just allow CC_REFRIGERATED and then add labels
15:43:27 <andythenorth> hmm, not even labels, just CC_REFRIGERATED
15:43:31 <supermop> no need to disallow piece good?
15:43:54 <andythenorth> should get you food, fish, alcohol, milk
15:43:56 <andythenorth> a few others maybe
15:44:51 <supermop> i have those and fruit
15:45:18 <supermop> never seen it delivered already chilled
15:45:26 <andythenorth> yeah fruit not beer
15:45:47 <andythenorth> ^ there's a bus that shows smoke even on electric
15:46:16 <andythenorth> it's accurately changing power
15:46:32 <andythenorth> so I'd guess cache invalidation is called whereever the power change is called
15:46:34 <supermop> to be fair i was just going to make dual mode trucks have no effect as work around
15:46:40 <andythenorth> nah we need to fix
15:47:07 <supermop> livestock vans - should they carry anything else?
15:47:10 <Wolf01> I thought that cache thing was sufficient
15:48:35 <andythenorth> no just livestock
15:49:29 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I added "RoadVehUpdateCache(v);" on L1313
15:49:34 <andythenorth> seems to work fine
15:49:46 <supermop> andythenorth: that switch seems a little clumsy for each truck - i thought there was a way in nml to say mail takes up half as much capacity as good or something
15:49:48 <andythenorth> not sure what other cases I need to test
15:50:22 <supermop> "By default, passenger capacity is 4x, and mail/goods capacity 2x larger than capacity for other cargoes. The capacity set here is used for the default (i.e. first refittable) cargo. Use the cargo_capacity callback to avoid this effect."
15:50:36 <supermop> i am not getting that 2x effect
15:50:52 <andythenorth> read the docs from frosch123 to understand why (all of them) :P
15:50:58 <andythenorth> or just use the solution I gave :)
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15:54:38 <Wolf01> Yes, does that fix something or things work even without it?
15:55:16 <andythenorth> it fixes the issue in the savegame I linked
15:55:31 <andythenorth> I don't know if it's wise or good, but it looks comparable to the train fix
15:56:54 <Wolf01> Let samu test the game performance with and without it ;)
16:01:52 <supermop> are we doing town roads or no?
16:02:14 <Wolf01> Not yet, but we can prepare stuff for it
16:02:42 <supermop> ok i'll leave it commented out then
16:04:22 <Wolf01> Maybe with some help to refine it we might even push it
16:05:22 <andythenorth> I'm hoping this cache invalidation is the last blocking bug
16:05:33 <andythenorth> and then maybe $someone will help release
16:10:02 <Samu> what am I testing, sorry wasn't paying attention
16:14:22 <Wolf01> Do you know you can read the chat history, don't you?
16:19:03 <andythenorth> now what shall I do?
16:21:16 <andythenorth> doesn't get my grf finished :P
16:22:37 <andythenorth> I need to fix the freighters, big mess
16:23:14 <Samu> save good performing AIs!
16:23:39 <Samu> don't bankrupt them for working way too well
16:26:25 <Samu> question, will you eventually drop support for Original ship pathfinder?
16:26:54 <Samu> it's extremelly slow after a certain number of ships
16:29:13 <Samu> i'm still testing NoNoCAB with Original pathfinder, it started on 26th February, and it's 4th March already, with no end in sight
16:34:18 <Samu> so it will end on 6th Match
17:03:02 <ATMunn> so i recently started a new save
17:03:17 <ATMunn> and i've made a bit of a disaster that I'm not sure how to fix
17:03:34 <ATMunn> basically, i was expanding my rail line to include a forest and a sawmill
17:04:01 <ATMunn> but i forgot to actually expand the tracks to include the station by the sawmill, so there ended up being a bunch of wood left in a different station
17:04:36 <ATMunn> but now the problem is, the station by the sawmill is one tile too far away, and so nothing was actually delivered...
17:04:53 <ATMunn> and it's right by a slope, so it's not very easy to move it closer
17:07:11 <andythenorth> that station covers the sawmill?
17:07:25 <andythenorth> Bufingburg Woods should cover the mill
17:07:31 <andythenorth> it's only 2 tiles away
17:07:36 <ATMunn> it doesn't for some reason
17:07:58 <andythenorth> screenshot with the accepted cargos?
17:11:27 <andythenorth> ATMunn: that's odd :o any newgrfs?
17:12:46 <ATMunn> actually there's one that i have for some reason
17:13:04 <ATMunn> but i don't see how that should interfere
17:15:10 <Wolf01> Station walk might solve your issue
17:15:27 <Wolf01> Also you can put the station on slope if you want
17:15:38 <Wolf01> Even one track up and one down
17:32:39 <ATMunn> oh i didn't realize stations could go on slopes
17:33:16 <andythenorth> station walk is adding tiles
17:33:25 <andythenorth> you can get newgrfs designed for it
17:33:40 <andythenorth> you can also ctrl-click when building to join stations together
17:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> when stations still needed to be rectangles, usually you would add truck or bus stops to extend the range
17:42:52 <Eddi|zuHause> so you would add a bus stop, then a truck stop, then delete the bus stop and add another, and then delete the truck stop and add another, ...
17:43:02 <Eddi|zuHause> this two-step motion was called "walking"
17:43:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it's now much easier
17:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> with non-rectangular stations and ctrl+click to place disjoint station tiles
17:47:38 <andythenorth> nice truck Wolf01
18:01:08 <ATMunn> (my trains drive on the right btw)
18:01:52 <Wolf01> Not enough space for waiting, trains will occupy the junction
18:02:49 <Wolf01> Also since they are PBS you can just remove the signals on the exit paths
18:03:25 <Wolf01> With PBS the reservation clears itself as soon as the last train car leaves a tile
18:03:51 <ATMunn> i assume pbs means path signals
18:04:43 <ATMunn> so wait, i don't quite see what i need to do to fix it
18:07:22 <Wolf01> If you put one signal near the junction, a train will wait on the junction blocking it if the exit track is busy
18:07:54 <Wolf01> Without signals, a train should wait on the piece of track and then other trains can enter the station
18:11:31 <Alberth> one-way path signals reduces a lot of confusion
18:11:44 <Wolf01> There is still to little space between the station and the main junction, the diamond junction in front of the station could go
18:12:15 <Alberth> you do need a signal after the platform
18:12:33 <Alberth> terminus doesn't as there is no "after"
18:14:24 <Alberth> right now, pbs claims a path up to the next signal, so it blocks the junction after the platform now
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18:36:04 <ATMunn> gah i don't know what im doing
18:36:21 <ATMunn> i ended up putting all the signals back out of confusion >_>
18:36:42 <ATMunn> i did remove the junction in front of the station though
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22:11:38 <Eddi|zuHause> why does music in odd meters fascinate me so much?
22:12:02 <supermop> because its different?
22:12:21 <supermop> you mean stuff like 'take 5' or like non-western music
22:13:05 <Eddi|zuHause> in transport fever there's a song in 5/4, and in Europa Universalis there's lots of songs in 7/4, also in stellaris
22:14:25 <supermop> idk if ive actually ever consciously heard anything in 7/4
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22:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> could also be 7/8
22:23:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i think that one is better described as 7/8
22:33:34 <supermop> when i do "default_cargo_type: [WOOD];"
22:33:52 <supermop> i get error that 'This expression can not be assigned to a parameter'
22:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds wrong
22:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> [WOOD] is a list containing the item WOOD
22:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas "default<whatever>" would be expected as one single item
22:36:08 <supermop> so just remove the [ ]?
22:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there's one 4/4 beat and one 6/8 beat, and at different parts of the song one dominates the other
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