IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-01-21
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00:01:15 <Wormnest> That´s not cheating, it´s allowed. I do it too sometimes
00:05:24 <Samu> i think i should start a bus competition ai one day, lol
00:05:33 <Samu> clear up my doubts about the issue
00:06:18 <Samu> problem will be how to prevent ais from building trucks
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10:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> ... finally someone put some sense into pasenger generation?
10:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that certainly explains why the passenger generation problem is worse with newgrf houses
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10:59:29 <andythenorth> generation grows quadratically or something
10:59:33 <andythenorth> which explains a lot
10:59:37 <andythenorth> forum thread about it
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11:28:24 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: basically, as far as i understood it, passenger generation uses the house population both for the chance to generate passengers at all, and for the amount of passengers to generate, so a house with double population will generate 4 times the passengers over the same timeframe
11:38:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that, combined with the fact that most house sets tend towards higher population houses
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12:13:06 <Borg> soo ? is that a problem?
12:15:48 <peter1138> what house populations are possible?
12:23:55 <Wolf01> BTW, just make it a setting: pax generation -> quadratic|linear XD
12:24:43 <Wolf01> We need to remove everything from the game and just keep the core, move all to GS/NewGRF
12:26:31 <Wolf01> We are discussing this for like 2 years
12:29:22 <Wolf01> The game as it is can't be fixed because 1) the base game should work like the original game; 2) you can't force all the players to play as *you* want, even if it's a fix (see the pax generation problem); 3) how many settings do you want for every single bit of feature the game provides? We already moved a lot of settings in CFG only as they were too much and they still are too much
12:30:20 <Borg> but moving too much out of the game engine.. might be step backward.. imo
12:30:43 <Borg> remember that OpenTTD is client/server
12:31:07 <Wolf01> The solution is to do it like NoAI, move it out of the game, provide a base script which behave like the original game, let players use their own scripts to change the entire way the game works
12:36:11 <Wolf01> Lets take as example one of the old discussion I had with andy, trees: current trees are limited, we wanted to change their distribution and which types could appear in different places of the map -> explosion of settings, we then decided that making a grf which has its own settings for each tree is the best way
12:36:39 <Wolf01> The problem is to find the time and will to do it :P
12:38:42 <Borg> uh... lucky.. I dont get much about trees...
12:38:52 <Borg> I just generate map w/o them. and allow them to grow everywhere..
12:39:06 <Borg> after 50 years... there are nice forest here and there :)
12:39:25 <Borg> and they even group themself w/ types ;)
12:41:08 <Wolf01> What if you want snowy tops without trees, evergreen trees/bushes in certain areas, different trees near water?
12:41:50 <Borg> yeah.. not possible now..
12:42:21 <Borg> but the game is about transportation.. not trees planting.. heh
12:42:28 <Borg> go play.. forest simulator instead ;))
12:43:16 <Wolf01> Some of us want also to create beautiful landscapes and not just ottdcoop massive transportation systems with 234534 parallel tracks
12:43:55 <Borg> uh... game have very limited landscape posibilities.. due to its tile nature...
12:44:14 <Wolf01> Yes, but you still have possibilities
12:44:56 <Borg> and I i am not fan of openttdcoop massive tracks stuff too ;P
12:47:04 <Borg> Wolf01: so I guess u play mostly on 32bit? w/ extended static grf graphics?
12:47:18 <Wolf01> Nope, I only play 8bpp
12:49:07 <Flygon> <Eddi|zuHause> that, combined with the fact that most house sets tend towards higher population houses
12:49:15 <Flygon> I always wanted a set that somehow simulated urban sprawl.
12:49:28 <Flygon> But I'm not sure that's all that practicable in OpenTTD.
12:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> what house populations are possible? <-- i think it's 0..255
12:50:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: sure, but that is completely besides the point
12:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: pikka tried to do something like that where rural "towns" have low-population 2x2 houses
13:00:08 <Flygon> Yeah, I was thinking in terms of... like.
13:00:22 <Flygon> But that's clearly not going to work for very obvious reasons.
13:03:54 <Borg> just add extra option ;)
13:04:01 <Borg> there is flag where town is a city..
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13:46:23 <Wolf01> Nice, I found some shunting puzzles already made for tane
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14:26:07 <Borg> I wonder why still station rating calculation is not fixed..
14:26:26 <Borg> having bonus for vehicles <2 years old is riduculus...
14:26:35 <Borg> it should be like <10 years..
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14:51:33 <Samu> so i've been looking at AIs and how they build buses
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14:52:04 <Samu> AdmiralAI has an impressive layout
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14:52:30 <Samu> how did i miss it before :(
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14:53:55 <Samu> AIAI, on the other hand, has the most abherrant building style
14:54:04 <Samu> too much station spreading
14:54:32 <Samu> he tries to get coverage of the whole town by station spreading
14:55:04 <Samu> I am commenting about the "best bus AI"
14:55:35 <Wormnest> best by what defenition
14:56:03 <Samu> better looking, better efficiency, speed, all that
14:56:55 <Wormnest> Still, how do you define better looking, efficience etc
14:57:40 <Samu> better looking, I just look at the world, and see how tidy, nice, elegant, lel it is
14:58:11 <Samu> efficient, is about no jams, the speed at which things get built
14:58:21 <Samu> and if it's actually profiting
15:00:28 <Wormnest> The first point seems to be really subjective to personal taste
15:01:11 <Wormnest> Profiting is usually no problem
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15:02:25 <Samu> well yeah, but in this case, it's about buses and towns, so it kind of matters if the stuff is not so jammed, or if the vehicles aren't blocking due to full loadings and that kind of things. Seems harder to manage a bus service than an industry service
15:03:48 <Samu> some AIs just build one station in the town, then never looks back, some others, try to expand stations, and there's others that actually build more new stations for the same town
15:03:58 <Wormnest> Especially if you run with multiple ai´s it may not be easy for an ai to make sure there are no traffic jams
15:04:50 <Wormnest> Larger towns attract ai´s and they can cause too much traffic
15:06:22 <Wormnest> NoNoCab tries to compute the amount of vehicles a route can handle but it does not consider other companies or ais also using the same roads
15:06:50 <Wormnest> Ofcourse with traffic jams the profits will go down and then vehicles will start to be sold
15:07:24 <Samu> i think CluelessPlus is overly cautions about jams
15:08:01 <Samu> he builds a service, then only starts 2 trucks / buses at a time
15:08:26 <Samu> later on, when he reviews routes, he decides to add 2 more and so
15:08:46 <Samu> but i guess it helps defeat traffic jams
15:08:47 <Wormnest> But gradually increasing can be a good tactic
15:09:25 <Wormnest> Slow but steady can sometimes be better than adding a lot all at once
15:11:05 <Samu> i looked yesterday at convoy, and i believe it has a buggy behaviour
15:11:18 <Samu> most of his vehicles are stopped in depots
15:12:16 <Samu> and from time to time it stalls...
15:13:12 <Samu> despite that, it has an interesting start regarding speed
15:14:29 <Samu> he decides to build 14 buses for a route, so he builds all 14, but only starts 2, leaving 12 stopped in depot, I wondered if this was part of his plan, but i believe not, sounds more like a bug
15:15:28 <Samu> when he finishes the 2nd route, he goes back to managing previous routes, and starts 2 more on the first, leaving 10 stopped in depot. but meanwhile, the 2nd route also has vehicles stopped in depot, looks buggy behaviour
15:16:19 <Samu> once every bus is out, at about the 10th bus service, he starts cloning massively
15:17:02 <Samu> 25 cloned buses on the first route, and left stopped in the depot
15:17:24 <Samu> he got 12 + 25 for this route already, very strange
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15:22:36 <Samu> terron is a bit special, he deals with mail and busses at the same time, even if i only tell it to deal with busses
15:22:48 <Samu> he considers it town to town cargo
15:25:09 <Samu> i suppose that's an "efficient" idea
15:28:09 <Samu> seems to build 2 pairs of pass/mail in each and every town
15:28:42 <Samu> doesn't look like he builds more than that once towns grow enough
15:30:41 <Samu> ah, i see he expands stations, not really station spreading, just adjacent expanding
15:38:09 <Samu> primary industry - produces the first cargo
15:38:48 <Samu> secondary industry - requrires first cargo to produce the second cargo
15:40:56 <Borg> yeah.. would be better to call primary industry saw raw industry
15:43:02 <Samu> enough terron, I've seen enough
15:46:22 <Samu> yeah, borkai appears to be overly cautios about traffic jams, let's see
15:50:57 <Samu> infrastructure wise, it looks semi-decent, but nearly no buses built
15:56:00 <Samu> 27 vehilces after 35 years on a 128x128 map, too slow
15:57:56 <Samu> he really shouldn't be using full load
15:58:13 <Samu> at least not in the way he builds
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16:07:26 <Samu> given enough time (aka 80 years), it's interesting to look at BorkAI bus services
16:07:46 <Samu> but doesn't look all that bad
16:09:14 <Samu> he renews vehicles, autoreplaces with new models
16:09:24 <Samu> but his route planner is terribly slow
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16:40:39 <Samu> looking at AdmiralAI again
16:56:51 <debdog> or could be something wrong on my end?
16:57:36 <debdog> tested with a patched self compiled 1.7.0 and the official .deb package from ottd.org version 1.7.2
16:58:34 <debdog> I would, if I'd be able to select it first
16:59:13 <debdog> the LCT set is somethihng different
16:59:52 <frosch123> no idea, it works for me
17:00:29 <Samu> what is the name for vehicle set, i'm not familiar with those newgrfs
17:01:00 <frosch123> debian, but shouldn't matter
17:01:42 <Samu> is it Original vehicles cargo set?, unsure
17:01:46 <debdog> does openttd create a log file somewhere?
17:02:08 <frosch123> you can start with command line option "-d misc=3" or something
17:02:33 <Borg> 5 platform 14 tiles long station.. monorail.. can handle 6k goods..
17:02:34 <frosch123> that prints all the tars it scans
17:02:47 <Samu> "ECS & FIRS vehicle set" is this it?
17:02:59 <frosch123> there should be a "ECS__FIRS_vehicle_set*tar" in it
17:04:46 <debdog> dbg: [misc] Found tar '/home/ax/.openttd/content_download/newgrf/ECS__FIRS_vehicle_set-2014.11.26.tar' with 3 new files
17:05:11 <Samu> yep, it's named "Original vehicles cargo set" once downloaded, just checked
17:05:13 <frosch123> debdog: it was renamed
17:05:21 <frosch123> it's now called "orignal vehicles cargo set"
17:05:36 <frosch123> select that in your list, and see the filename on the right :)
17:05:53 <debdog> could've searched for years then
17:06:19 <frosch123> text filter would have worked
17:07:07 <frosch123> text filter also searches the description, any maybe also filename
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17:12:30 <Samu> yeah, frosch has me on ingore list, i see
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17:39:38 <Samu> he tries too hard, but gets the wrong amount of buses,
17:40:15 <Samu> seems to focus too much on growing towns by themselves, too little profits
17:41:57 <Samu> well, towns grow eventually, but he risks too much
17:54:08 <Borg> isnt that whole table wrong? low byte is cargo type.. not amount
17:56:57 <Samu> Note that the values listed here are big-endian. In order to use the values listed for props 0A..0C in an NFO file, you'll have to reverse the bytes first.
17:57:20 <Samu> eh.. i dunno how to help
17:57:54 <Borg> some moron wrote that table.. who game is little endian
17:58:01 <Borg> and he came up w/ big endian here.. doh :)
18:00:05 <Samu> bit endian, little endian
18:00:39 <frosch123> just read ottd sources
18:01:24 <Samu> frosch123: do you have me on ignore?
18:09:01 <Samu> CivilAI is decent, if it actually takes off
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18:53:56 <Samu> cpu has vehicles with no orders:(
18:55:59 <Samu> doesn't use autoreplace, but uses autorenew
18:56:36 <Samu> wondering what happens when a model is no longer available to autorenew, what he does
18:57:27 <LordAro> i feel like reading the source code would be a more time efficient way of working that out
18:59:32 <Samu> he sells vehicles with negative profit, but some of these overaged buses
18:59:42 <Samu> don't even get negative profits
19:10:40 <Samu> i feel like creating a disaster
19:11:23 <Samu> if a vehicle is past its max age, has reached 255 breakdowns and the model is no longer available, explode it!
19:13:56 <Alberth> provide a better competing service :)
19:15:40 <Samu> give some meaning to that "and urgently needs replacing" message
19:19:09 <Rubidium> but.... that's not realistic
19:19:27 <Rubidium> you just keep running such a vehicle
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19:31:12 <Snail> hey I’m currently coding your new cargo, PIPE
19:31:35 <Snail> what kind of metal is PIPE made of?
19:31:48 <Snail> from the wiki it appears it can only be made of steel...
19:31:58 <andythenorth> could be metal or plastic
19:32:10 <andythenorth> might reappear in other economies, not sure
19:32:10 <Snail> not aluminum or copper?
19:32:16 <Rubidium> they're made from me!
19:32:23 <andythenorth> seen the chips cargo for it?
19:32:43 <Snail> ok… I need to choose which color to make them appear on my flatbed wagons
19:33:30 <Snail> steel-like grey, of course, but I was thinking about other subcargoes… such as light grey for aluminum or brownish for copper
19:33:52 <Snail> hmm I see, so basically only steel-like grey?
19:36:42 <andythenorth> grey is pretty safe
19:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i think DBSet has grey and brown
19:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> (for steel, basically)
19:41:52 <Samu> enough of CPU, he's bad overall
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19:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27965 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2018-01-21 19:45:39 +0100 )
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> spanish (mexican): 43 changes by Absay
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19:52:17 <Samu> speaking of translators, i'm gonna fix something that's irking me for a long time
19:52:34 <Samu> if I'm still a translator, that is
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20:02:14 <Samu> STR_GROUP_OCCUPANCY_VALUE
20:05:27 <Alberth> a number and a percent sign
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20:06:04 <Alberth> assuming occupancy doesn't go negative or above 100
20:06:41 <Samu> why are we required to translate that? :
20:07:28 <Wolf01> Because certain languages don't use "42%" format but other ways to show it
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20:08:57 <Wolf01> The placement of the percent sign (%).
20:08:58 <Wolf01> It can be written several ways: 98%, 98 %, 98 pct, %98. Thus you should never assume that you can hard-code the percent sign.
20:13:24 <Snail> Eddi|zuHause: yes, for Steel and Metal I also have mutiple colors (grey, light grey and copper brown)
20:13:58 <Snail> but if Pipes are not made of copper, it makes little sense to add brown...
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20:28:39 <Alberth> use neon orange paint on the pipe, easier to find it back after burying it
20:32:08 <andythenorth> who'd have known
20:52:19 <Samu> yesh, i translated pt_PT... i wanna cookie now
20:53:22 <Rubidium> go to any big website for your free share of cookies ;)
21:03:52 <Samu> ok enough translation for today
21:04:15 <Samu> those vehicle previews are a bit messed up
21:04:33 <Samu> it was inconsistent, hope it's better now
21:06:01 <Samu> I wonder why I get suggestions from pt_BR
21:36:51 <Samu> EpicTrans is a nasty bus station builder
21:37:11 <Samu> doesn't renew his vehicles
21:37:25 <Samu> and no autoreplace either
21:38:05 <Samu> but it's ultra fast building
21:38:26 <Samu> so fast, it gets bankrupts warnings from time to time
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21:55:23 <Samu> is there a LuDiAI topic? I can't find any
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21:56:08 <Samu> i got a crash report, but no topic to report to
21:57:27 <Wormnest> Samu: There is not forum topic for it
21:58:10 <Wormnest> And seeing as it was a university study topic most likely will never get updates
21:58:28 <Samu> Your script made an error: parameter 1 has an invalid type '(null)'; expected: 'null'
21:58:59 <Samu> (null) is different than 'null'
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