IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-01-20
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10:31:16 <Wolf01> So, it looks like I'm unalbe to solve even the simplest shunting puzzle :(
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10:47:12 <Alberth> write a program to solve it :p
10:47:52 <Wolf01> Nah, it's more funny to drive the shunter manually
10:58:21 <Alberth> when I program a solver, I usually get a deeper understanding of the puzzle, and what I missed in solving it manually.
10:58:39 <Alberth> However, it does kill the fun in solving it manually.
10:59:41 <Wolf01> Like my "lights out" solver, it logs moves you do and then deletes what you did duplicate to reduce the number of moves to show you the perfect solution :D
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11:03:40 <Wolf01> Oh, finally I managed to rotate an entire consist
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11:07:57 <Alberth> try long enough and you will succeed :)
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12:05:20 <Wolf01> Now I only need to add the rules to the route
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13:28:59 <Wolf01> Mmmh ===T=1======>======2=T===, (1 and 2 are trains, T are triggers, > is junction), I start with 2 trains heading to the junction and need to make them overtake so they can continue, the junction only has space for 1 wagon, the problem with the triggers are that if I make the trains visit the left one by reversing 1 and moving forward 2, the right one one by reversing 2 and moving forawrd
13:30:01 <Wolf01> I should remove points if I find trains pass the triggers in reverse
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14:34:30 <Samu> do you know why DictatorAI log appears to handle trains, but never builds any?
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15:37:49 <Samu> DictatorAI has a bad use of terraform
15:38:08 <Samu> terraforms on open water
15:41:51 <Samu> Lazy profile is doing better than opportunist and dictator
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16:12:16 <Samu> okay, dictator is now ahead of lazy profile
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17:07:01 <Samu> dictatorai wastes most of the time trying to upgrade airports
17:07:22 <Samu> then repeats shortly after
17:26:29 <Samu> I wanted to hear some opinions
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18:06:11 <Alberth> title doesn't come close to covering the changes that you make?
18:06:51 <Alberth> ie helicopter stuff, aircraft servicing, aircraft range limits
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18:53:01 <Samu> i try to do one thing, but then i realize that I have to do more for it to work well
18:54:00 <Samu> then i try to implement everything on the same patch, and the initial titlle may no longer make sense
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18:59:10 <Samu> to make the different aircraft types work with the addition of the new setting, I realised I had to touch servicing code, go to hangar code. I inadvertedly had to touch helicopters afterwards
19:00:45 <andythenorth> frosch123: what you up to? :)
19:01:23 * andythenorth is playing tanks
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19:01:48 <frosch123> read the nginx beginner tutorial
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19:05:31 <Samu> at the same time, I really wanted to solve a long standing problem with helicopters: service at helipads versus breakdowns. Since I was touching servicing code, and go to hangar, I was like "why not fix this too?"
19:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> changing stuff from the tutorial is the most difficult thing
19:06:31 <Samu> there is service that doesn't require engine replacing and a service that does, I had to differentiate
19:06:54 <Samu> due to service at helipad setting being a headache
19:08:14 <Samu> Alberth: other than the patch having a bad title, what u think about it as a whole
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19:10:33 <Alberth> it's normal that you find other spots once you start digging
19:11:29 <Alberth> then you decide if it belongs in the same patch, or it must be a new patch
19:12:07 <Alberth> For trunk, typically you would make a new patch (a new commit) if you change some other thing.
19:12:47 <Alberth> tbh, I have no idea what "as a whole" is, it seems a random collection of aircraft fixes
19:14:35 <Samu> the idea for that patch was to really disable large aircraft landing on airports with short runway.
19:14:56 <Samu> i thought that maybe this would "help" players
19:15:36 <Samu> if the aircraft is not avaliable to purchase at a small airport hangar, they are being "helped"
19:15:59 <Samu> or if they try to put an order on a small airport, it just doesn't accept it
19:19:03 <Samu> i like to say this feature is similar to railway vs electrified railway
19:21:35 <Samu> "the whole collection of fixes" is what's killing it, right :(
19:27:33 <Samu> I will try to separate everything into small patches once I get back
19:27:46 <Alberth> if that's "the whole", then yes, it's too large
19:28:17 <Alberth> patch shoudn't do more than what the label on the box says :)
19:29:17 <Alberth> as for the other parts, I have no clue; I never played with range limits
19:29:38 <Alberth> no idea how it works and what its problems are or are not
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19:30:57 <Alberth> tbh I am not sure your patch counts as helping; you're killing a game mechanic
19:31:21 <Samu> i remember that I have savegames ready to show those issues
19:31:46 <Alberth> ie it's possible to land a large aircraft in a small airport, but it comes with a risk
19:32:12 <Alberth> a player should imho weigh that advantages against the risks, and decide
19:32:21 <Alberth> the patch makes the decision for him
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19:32:35 <Samu> yes, but aircraft crashes setting could be disabled
19:32:50 <Alberth> yes, the risk is 0 then
19:33:04 <Samu> the risk is gone, and now players can abuse big planes on small airports :(
19:33:50 <Alberth> yep, just as people can disable breakdowns, use newgrfs that allow trains running on all track types, level the netire terrain, and lots of other things
19:34:32 <Alberth> simple solution is not to play with people that are not compatible with your preferences
19:35:00 <Alberth> trying to change people is mostly wasted effort
19:35:18 <Samu> wanted to enforce the differentiation :(
19:37:19 <Samu> there is currently no middle option to setup a server where ppl have no aircraft crashes
19:37:30 <Samu> and still use the correct aircraft sizes
19:37:52 <Samu> it feels like something is amiss
19:38:18 <Samu> so I went ahead with this patch, to offer that possibility :|
19:39:59 <Samu> i could setup max station size up to 5x5 tiles,, which would completely disable large airports, and intending a server with small airports only. Naturally, I want ppl to use small airplanes, but with aircraft crashes disabled, they would end building large planes :(
19:40:08 <Samu> there's a lack of flexibility here
19:40:44 <Alberth> it may be simpler to make a newgrf that disables the small airport
19:41:25 <Samu> you meant large airports?
19:43:49 <Samu> sorry, I have to go... be back later. tc
20:17:09 <frosch123> secondary industries close after 5 years of no service
20:17:29 <frosch123> if they are all spawned at the same time (e.g. game start), they all close at the same time
20:17:39 <frosch123> it's more extreme on huge maps
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21:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i suggested a long time ago that there should be "inactive" areas that a player never touched, and the shutdown counter there is halted
21:12:30 <Borg> that would make game too much static
21:12:45 <Borg> its already become kind static.... if you serve industries right
21:12:48 <andythenorth> industry regions would be really nice
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21:13:15 <andythenorth> dumb proposal: randomise some bits per town
21:13:20 <andythenorth> use them for industry stuff
21:13:26 <andythenorth> including closure
21:13:31 <Borg> well... leave that to GS?
21:13:47 <Borg> also.. I wonder who choosed Squi... whatever.. as OpenTTD GS....
21:13:47 <andythenorth> problem is Only One GS
21:13:56 <Eddi|zuHause> there are random bits for towns, it's called town name
21:14:04 <andythenorth> "GS can fix it" is pretty limited IRL
21:14:10 <andythenorth> it's a nice theory
21:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: i think it was TrueBrain
21:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> with a "... this is not negotiable"
21:14:34 <frosch123> Borg: there are essentially only lua and squirrel. and lua is terrible
21:15:11 <Borg> are you fucking kidding me?
21:15:20 <Borg> I see LUA superrior to GS
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21:21:24 <Borg> learning GS.. I noticed that OpenTTD programmers.. love OO.. to the extent.....
21:35:36 <LordAro> i'm not convinced lua was a viable option at the time
21:36:02 <LordAro> Borg: OO comes with squirrel, it's not a OTTD thing
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21:47:03 <Borg> LordAro: I know. but.. its so abused in GS.. ;) in my opinion
21:47:26 <Eddi|zuHause> certainly OO is an invention by openttd... nobody else ever did it, and openttd is pure OO
21:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> *hint*: all the statements above are false
21:50:41 <LordAro> Borg: i'd imagine you feel the same way about java
22:14:22 <Borg> LordAro: yeah... Java.. ugh
22:14:32 <Borg> andythenorth: python is a laught. if we speak about OO..
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23:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> not every usage of objects is automatically OO
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23:19:40 <Samu> i reported a crash, did you see it
23:20:19 <Wormnest> Hi Samu, yeah I saw I know what I need to change just don´t have a lot of time atm
23:22:28 <Wormnest> Yes, I think although very rare its possible at that place for an engine to become invalid
23:22:56 <Wormnest> This was still part of the original nocab I think
23:23:53 <Samu> oh, vehicles expire is enabled
23:24:07 <Samu> so maybe that could be the cause
23:24:24 <Samu> well, only the small airport though
23:25:23 <Wormnest> Yes as far as I can see it´s like because some engine expired but ai should handle that
23:25:44 <Samu> i've been messing around with AIs whom I've spent less time with
23:26:11 <Samu> have you ever seen DictatorAI build trains in your tests?
23:27:08 <Samu> strange, i never was able to see trains
23:27:41 <Samu> the log shows that it's dealing with wagons and engines, but then... I see nothing built
23:28:00 <Wormnest> But I can´t say I really remember details of any past ai tests
23:29:25 <Samu> I've been also trying to understand what is BorkAI doing with all that town cache
23:30:51 <Samu> dictatorAI has airport upgrading. It's was the first time I Saw an AI build a intercontinental airport
23:31:21 <Samu> demolishes the old airport to plant the new
23:31:46 <Samu> fails most of the time, I'm surprised it still rebuilds the previous airport
23:33:15 <Samu> When will wormAi get road or ship support? :p
23:33:24 <Wormnest> WormAI has upgrading of airports too
23:33:43 <Samu> oh, never seen intercontinental
23:33:45 <Wormnest> Whenever I have time and feel like doing it :p
23:34:06 <Wormnest> Maybe it doesn´t do that one, can´t remember
23:34:42 <Wormnest> In most cases you won´t need one that big anyway
23:34:52 <Samu> dictatorai really is insane regarding terraform
23:35:10 <Samu> for that intercontinental airport, he leveled a whole mass of land on water
23:35:15 <Samu> i can't imagine the costs
23:36:15 <Samu> well, for ship support, I suggest looking at NoNoCAB code :p
23:36:20 <Wormnest> as long as you don´t have infrastructure costs you will earn it back fast
23:37:58 <Samu> for road, i would say mogulai for industries, it gave me the idea it's smart and fast enough
23:39:23 <Samu> for town, I'm not sure yet. AroAI always seem to leave a good impression, but... there seems to be no perfect bus ai
23:40:12 <Samu> cluelessplus is ultra slow...
23:40:47 <Samu> what do u think it's best?
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23:48:32 <Wormnest> Well my plan for adding ships is indeed to use part of nonocab but ofcourse with different decision making for how to select a route
23:49:09 <Wormnest> What ai is best also depends on the settings. I don´t think there´s one ai that always performs best
23:53:18 <Samu> this new AI, LuDiAI is quite efficient at doing buses, but... he's a cheater, not fair to count it on
23:53:47 <Samu> station spreading, to increase coverage
23:56:03 <Samu> i'm not sure what to say about Convoy. it's one of the AIs i don't usually pay attention, will take a closer look at the things he does
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