IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-01-07
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10:54:32 <Borg> aaaa help. I got problem w/ YAPF
10:55:48 <Borg> why that bitch goes to red.. even when she have green signal on right
10:56:49 <peter1138> So, er, which signal?
10:57:36 <Wolf01> Use the 2 way signals to let trains make decisions with presignals
10:59:01 <peter1138> Do you mean the presignal block leading to the two stopped trains? It's because the right lane has an extra signal at the end which increases the penalty.
10:59:04 <Borg> peter1138: the upper train that goes down...
10:59:18 <Borg> there are 2 exit signals and presignal
11:00:04 <Borg> peter1138: but its green.. so no penalty
11:00:50 <Borg> straigth patch: 500+400=900
11:00:53 <peter1138> Green still has a penalty.
11:01:20 <peter1138> Yes because of the other route.
11:01:20 <Borg> also... firstred counts too? then +1000
11:01:29 <Borg> so.. straight patch should have 1900 at least
11:01:38 <Borg> no.. lets count right lane...
11:01:53 <peter1138> Just use path signals everywhere and stop with the old school rubbish :p
11:02:05 <Borg> so obvious path for me....
11:02:17 <Borg> peter1138: pfft... I use PBS a lot :) but sometimes its suboptimal
11:02:34 <Borg> I tried to red YAPF code.. but.. its damn complicated C++ stuff
11:02:47 <Wolf01> PBS is suboptimal when you put 1 signal every 2 tiles
11:03:19 <Borg> Wolf01: nah.. its slow sometimes.. and also not making right decisions in certain cases.. its ok.. thats why we have presignals
11:04:10 <Borg> yapf.rail_firstred_penalty = 1000
11:04:18 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 5
11:04:19 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p0 = 500
11:04:19 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p1 = -100
11:04:19 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p2 = 0
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11:04:28 <Borg> but with those settings.. it should go to the right lane dammit
11:04:51 <Wolf01> The entry presignal should be a DOUBLE WAY SIGNAL
11:05:05 <Borg> Wolf01: only if you have twoway_eol=true
11:05:35 <Borg> or.. twoway signals are calculated differently?
11:06:56 <Wolf01> I think twoway_eol is for handling terminus stations
11:07:02 <Wolf01> You don't have an eol there
11:07:13 <Borg> I dont see any special stuff for twoway signals in YAPF
11:07:25 <Borg> only twoway_eol and depots
11:07:35 <Wolf01> Because it's from the core game, not YAPF
11:07:55 <Wolf01> Two way = make decision
11:08:33 <Borg> Wolf01: arent u confusing openttdcoop SRN ?
11:08:34 <Wolf01> It was chosen a lot of time ago, in TTDP when presignals were added
11:08:56 <Borg> okey.. lets switch them to two way
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11:11:29 <Borg> oneway twoway should not make difference
11:11:56 <Borg> lets see if PBS will do better
11:13:02 <Wolf01> Just don't place PBS after junction, that's not a safe waiting point
11:13:37 <Wolf01> Better safe than sorry
11:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know why coop-people insist on twoway_eol, when firstred_exit is equally as powerful
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11:19:21 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: yeah.. I dont use twoway_eol...
11:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i only use path signals anyway
11:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't build that kind of junction
11:20:19 <Borg> and sometimes presignals where station have low traffic and I dont want to have loop on it
11:20:39 <Borg> but I wonder if I should convert it to PBS
11:20:55 <Wolf01> I only build plain junctions, flyovers only if the terrain forces me :P
11:21:17 <Borg> Wolf01: well... I have high traffic on that lane
11:21:27 <Borg> play junction would be suboptimal..
11:21:31 <Borg> wanna see it? its on server....
11:21:37 <Wolf01> I usually have 2-6 trains per line, so...
11:21:44 <Borg> currently, Im scared to use PBS signals...
11:21:57 <Wolf01> And they usually wait at stations
11:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: PBS are totally easy: every place you would put an exit signal, you remove the signal, every entry signal becomes a one-way path signal
11:23:35 <Borg> the only problem I have is PBS vs OneWay PBS :>
11:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure that every entry into the junction is through a path signal, never a block signal
11:23:48 <Borg> my networks are mostly oneway...
11:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you need twoway path signal only at terminus stations
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11:25:55 <Borg> I miss more fine grained Signal Selection via CTRL
11:26:27 <Wolf01> There's a setting for that, you can decide which kind of signals to cycle
11:27:06 <Borg> okey.. found acceptable setting..
11:27:12 <Borg> build path.. cycle thro all
11:27:20 <Borg> just to clicks.. if I will not use pre signals anymore
11:28:03 <Borg> pre signals are no more! ;)
11:28:40 <Wolf01> Pre signals are still useful, but not as they were before PBS
11:28:42 <Borg> extra setting would be cool tho
11:28:51 <Borg> cycle via: block + path (no presignals)
11:29:03 <Borg> yeah.. before PBS they were must :)
11:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i had so many problems with presignals, because i always stumbled into the cases where they were not enough
11:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't use the ctrl-cycling, i use the signal gui to select the signal
11:32:04 <Borg> I prefer to click fast few times
11:32:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and also i put path signals everywhere
11:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> no plain block signals
11:32:18 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: even on one way line ?
11:32:28 <Borg> I use PBS only on junctions
11:32:35 <Borg> on lanes.. I put simple block one way signal
11:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that just bites you in the ass if you add a junction to an existing line and forget to convert a signal
11:33:29 <Borg> how u can forget to convert? :)
11:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> every mistake that can happen will happen
11:34:46 <Borg> oh.. the only mistakes I made. when rebuilding busy intersection..
11:34:53 <Borg> and sometimes I remove signal.. and BOOM
11:35:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i always build while paused. easier to catch these kinds of mistakes
11:36:23 <Borg> current setting is not optimal
11:36:29 <Borg> too much clicking when building lane..
11:37:12 <Borg> All, All but pre-signals, Path signals, block signals,
11:39:54 <Borg> first I need to setup compilation platform.. wont be easy
11:41:00 <Borg> I noticed that stations have signals...
11:41:32 <Wolf01> Sort of, but don't rely on it
11:42:03 <Borg> well.. if they will work basicaly on station with reserving
11:42:16 <Borg> its fine.. I use them only on low traffic..
11:42:37 <Borg> then I dont need a patch :) because I will not use twoway PBS
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11:42:59 <Wolf01> I make terminus stations without any signal if I lack of space
11:43:39 <Borg> they behave a bit like PBS
11:43:54 <Borg> I had 2 trains w/o signals in block
11:44:09 <Borg> and they went in.. one went out
11:44:15 <Borg> dammit! :) no need to PBS on them
11:44:43 <Borg> im back to my old settings
11:44:51 <Borg> place One way PBS, cycle thro block signals only
11:45:04 <Borg> since I will use only one way PBS or one way block signals. not much clicking!
11:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not the station that has a signal
11:46:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it's that a reversing train has a signal
11:47:49 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: simple block signal?
11:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no. if a train reverses, and there is a path signal nearby, it will try to reserve a path. if it cannot reserve the path, it will wait (instead of just going)
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13:11:24 <Wolf01> Yay, mashinky got presignals
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13:50:39 <Thedarkb-X40> Why does OpenTTD still depend on libicu52?
13:51:17 <Wolf01> Because nobody still had time to get rid of it
13:52:50 <Thedarkb-X40> I'll try building it from the source.
13:55:43 <Thedarkb-X40> It's not finding a video driver.
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15:21:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27961 /trunk (bin/baseset/openttd.grf media/extra_grf/openttdgui.png) (2018-01-07 15:21:09 +0100 )
15:21:17 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6654]: The switch-toolbar icon contained pixels from the fire cycle. Replace the whole icon with a new version. (PaulC)
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15:57:02 <nicfer> Is this channel open for newgrf questions?
15:58:17 <frosch123> this channel is for everything
15:58:48 <frosch123> including lego, factorio and other stuff
15:59:18 <__ln__> also linear algebra, poetry, signal processing
16:15:01 <nicfer> I'm trying to make a GRF that changes primary industries to increase production when supplied with cargo (passengers in my case)
16:16:08 <frosch123> check out yeti, manpower industries and possibly firs
16:16:14 <frosch123> they are all doing similar things
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17:05:33 <andythenorth> what if it's the general case
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17:06:56 <andythenorth> Eddi argues that NRT failed because it doesn't consider the general case
17:07:09 <andythenorth> but the general case can't be reconciled
17:17:42 <andythenorth> catenary MUST be split road / tram
17:17:52 <andythenorth> catenary MUST be unified road / tram
17:18:08 <frosch123> catenary MUST be purely visual
17:18:30 <andythenorth> player MUST be able to build over town road
17:18:43 <andythenorth> player MUST NOT be able to build over town road
17:18:52 <andythenorth> general case is nonsense
17:19:03 <frosch123> since when are there players?
17:19:45 <andythenorth> I would be inclined to say just ship it
17:19:55 <andythenorth> except for the weird compatibility junk
17:23:51 <supermop> andythenorth in general, yes
17:24:13 <supermop> nrt probably works good enough as is
17:25:03 <andythenorth> but it's not done
17:25:27 <andythenorth> and it can't be done
17:25:40 <supermop> openttd wasn't done but they let me download it back in the 0.7.x times
17:37:34 <andythenorth> but only the signals, pathfinder, newgrf, timetables and vehicle physics were actually broken then
17:38:55 <andythenorth> frosch123: how about we ship, catenary is trams only?
17:39:04 <andythenorth> problems eliminated
17:44:51 <andythenorth> why is catenary a thing?
17:44:55 <andythenorth> isn't it just decoration?
17:51:01 <andythenorth> vehicle compatibility is 1:1 determined by type
17:51:07 <andythenorth> road and tram are orthogonal
17:51:21 <andythenorth> any type that wants to show catenary draws it as decoration
17:51:35 <andythenorth> decoration cb cycles through sprites for both sides of road
18:11:49 <Snail_> I like your attempt to improve Extreme economy, just please try not to introduce any new cargoes (at least for now) ;)
18:13:48 <andythenorth> I am drawing ships and trains for next [n] months
18:17:56 <andythenorth> I don't need to transport any nerfs
18:18:13 <andythenorth> NERF is not a FIRS cargo
18:45:42 <Wolf01> What if we just solve the problem visually and keep whatever catenary exists in tiles?
18:46:52 <Wolf01> It's grf author problem to show if there is trolleybus catenary or tram catenary
18:47:10 <Wolf01> supermop: you already solved this, no?
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18:57:49 <andythenorth> Snail_: if you stick around, I'll put the classes in FIRS docs
18:58:10 <Snail_> andythenorth: sounds great! :)
18:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i think one of the problems is that it's trying to build upon the distinction between "road" and "tram", which is clerly insufficiant
19:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there's road (with various surfaces)
19:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> there's road decoration
19:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> there's trolley catenary
19:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> there's tram rails
19:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there's tram catenary
19:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> there's tram 3rd rail
19:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> each of them has different restrictions with which it is compatible
19:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> like trolley catenary can only be built along roads, where tram rails can be laid without road
19:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> tram catenary can only be built along trams, but most of the time it should be treated as one unit with the tram rails
19:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> trolley catenary should be removable from town roads, so it needs its separate owner
19:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause> 3rd rail cannot be built along roads, only crossings allowed
19:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be tram rails that are not allowed along roads, but have different speed limit
19:09:45 <Snail_> andythenorth: what year will Vehicle Bodies be available from?
19:11:02 <andythenorth> I am very against date-restricted cargos and industries
19:11:09 <andythenorth> I would have removed them, but too much complaining :P
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19:16:37 <Thedarkb> I'm trying to build openttd from the source and it's looking for a graphics driver.
19:17:47 <Snail_> andythenorth: shouldn’t Assembly Plants also supply Farm Supplies?
19:18:13 <LordAro> Thedarkb: what's the error message?
19:18:24 <Thedarkb> I did something weird and now it's reporting as both...
19:18:49 <Thedarkb> Anyway, it says the driver isn't found and that I need to run configure with a --dedicated flag.
19:18:56 <Thedarkb> But I don't want to run a dedicated server.
19:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Thedarkb: you're probably missing SDL (1) development files
19:19:06 <LordAro> sounds like you're mis- ^
19:19:21 <LordAro> Thedarkb: `apt-get build-dep openttd` will install all necessary deps on debian
19:19:39 <Thedarkb> Some libs are deprecated though
19:20:06 <LordAro> i.e., please quote the error/warning messages
19:20:37 <Thedarkb> I'll come back when I'm on the machine I'm trying to build it on.
19:20:39 <LordAro> (into a pastebin of some sort if >3 lines)
19:23:08 <andythenorth> Snail_: think 'how many output cargos?' o_O
19:23:25 <andythenorth> also FMSP are not demanded much in Steeltown
19:25:37 <andythenorth> I have no idea why some of the classes are set
19:25:58 <supermop> eddi: how do you see tram 3rd rail as different than just a type of catenary or type of track?
19:26:16 <andythenorth> who's ever going to set 'hazardous' ?
19:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's a remnant from this "OpenTTD+500" "project", the only part which sounded reasonable enough that anybody might actually use it
19:28:14 <andythenorth> 'covered' I think has been used, as an exclude on open vehicles
19:28:31 <andythenorth> but what, I have to provide 'hazardous cargos' truck?
19:28:42 <andythenorth> it makes no sense even as an exclude
19:28:52 <andythenorth> maybe it's for CB36 novelties instead
19:29:04 <andythenorth> I could nerf horse with realism
19:29:12 <andythenorth> 'hazardous cargos must have 2 brake vans'
19:29:30 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe hazardous materials cannot be driven through towns (with NRT) :p
19:30:00 <Snail_> btw why did you have to introduce the new METL cargo label?
19:30:08 <Snail_> in my set, I’m treating it exactly like STEL...
19:30:27 <andythenorth> because STEL isn't METL
19:30:31 <andythenorth> they're different
19:30:37 <Snail_> couldn’y you have kept STEL and just renamed it in Extreme economy?
19:31:42 <andythenorth> yes, but I didn't
19:32:39 <andythenorth> keeps vehicle set authors entertained
19:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: maybe you can get away with merging them into the track type, but it seemed different enough that i listed it separately
19:35:16 <Thedarkb> Over here, hazardous cargo needs one brake van but two buffer wagons at either end in case of a collision.
19:38:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: surely it's just the track type?
19:38:41 <andythenorth> and arbitrary graphics?
19:38:47 <andythenorth> we don't have these concepts in railtypes
19:38:58 <andythenorth> seems NRT is extensively complex :P
19:39:34 <Snail_> I’d love to separate rails and electrification systems...
19:39:48 <Snail_> that would open many possibilities
19:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the complexity comes from the fact that a road tile can have multiple owners
19:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> which is not a problem that railtypes faced, so they could take the lazy path there
19:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> clearly you cannot get away with that for roadtypes
19:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you could reduce that to 4 not-entirely-orthogonal types: road (none, dirt, cobble, asphalt), decoration (grass, pavement, trees, lamps), rail (none, tram, fast tram) and electrification (none, trolley catenary, tram catenary, 3rd rail)
19:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> which would "solve" the catenary problem by only allowing one catenary on each roadbit
19:44:49 <andythenorth> why is multiple owners relevant?
19:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so trolley and tram catenary can only cross each other, not go along
19:45:01 <andythenorth> none of the problems that killed NRT are due to multiple owners
19:45:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so i imagined there being a problem with trolley catenary not being removable from town roads?
19:45:57 <andythenorth> actually I adjust my comment
19:46:02 <andythenorth> given that Town is an owner
19:46:10 <andythenorth> towns don't own rail
19:46:25 <andythenorth> that is basically the issue that makes NRT failed
19:46:31 <andythenorth> and that will apply to any spec
19:46:44 <andythenorth> so fundamentally, this isn't possible
19:47:42 <andythenorth> assuming no infra-sharing
19:47:54 <andythenorth> modifying tiles owned by someone else just isn't possible in OpenTTD
19:48:03 <andythenorth> and towns own roads
19:48:12 <andythenorth> so any attempt at roadtypes can never work
19:48:19 <andythenorth> maybe we just do tramtypes? Wolf01
19:49:00 <Wolf01> I would do roadtypes more, you might just need 3 trams
19:49:41 <andythenorth> roadtypes aren't possible :)
19:49:58 <andythenorth> because of towns
19:50:19 <Wolf01> With a well crafted grf it might work, we need to solve the problem of changing town roads (without upgrade or downgrade shit)
19:50:56 <andythenorth> that's not possible in current OpenTTD
19:51:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i would define "upgrade" as "must be compatible with ROAD", and then hope that grf authors don't do silly stuff with changing ROAD
19:51:08 <andythenorth> no player may modify another player's infastructure
19:51:26 <andythenorth> it's a fundamental tenet of the game
19:51:43 <Wolf01> With the exception of town owned roads, you can blow them up
19:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can convert "cobble road with trolley catenary" to "asphalt road without catenary"
19:52:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but not to haul road
19:52:27 <Samu> if you will rework roads, create diagonal for them :p
19:53:15 <andythenorth> so I convert the road, now I own it?
19:53:18 <Wolf01> What if old_roadtype & new_roadtype = old_roadtype?
19:53:52 <Wolf01> (speaking about flags and compatibility)
19:53:54 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly you can add that the speed limit should not be lower than before
19:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (i think that's already the case for bridges)
19:54:27 <Wolf01> Nah, that won't break compatibility, you should be able to change the speed limit as you want
19:55:45 <Wolf01> Samu: not the right topic, we are discussing about NRT (which is a 1.5 years old feature, so you should already know what it does)
19:57:44 <Wolf01> Also, andythenorth, if you convert a town road you should take ownership, who comes first wins
19:58:20 <andythenorth> that's an exploit
19:58:43 <Wolf01> That's what you already do when you are placing one way roads
19:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but then the reverse should be true, if town upgrades the road during its expansion loop (assuming that will be a feature), it should reclaim ownership of the road
19:58:48 <andythenorth> currently removing road is only possible for certain cases
19:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> (or the roadside decoration)
19:59:02 <andythenorth> if you can take ownership, you can remove it
19:59:22 <andythenorth> currently only tiles with 1 connection can be removed, and only if rating is high
19:59:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think there's a setting for that
19:59:54 <Wolf01> Nah, with good rating you can dismantle a town
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20:00:25 <Samu> i've heard about NRT, but honestly, I haven't been following it
20:00:49 <andythenorth> an older roadtype spec found enough bits for 3 types
20:00:56 <andythenorth> which was discarded in favour of simplicity
20:01:10 <andythenorth> however if there was a 3rd type for town-owned...
20:01:43 <andythenorth> player can add trolley, but town ROAD remains
20:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a different possibility: all road-surface within a town's authority range will be subject to town intervention. so even though you built a road, you cannot simply remove it, because it is now in the public interest
20:02:34 <Samu> 2 AIs remaining on my tests, TracAI and Terron
20:02:43 <Wolf01> But changes a lot of how the game works now
20:03:13 <Wolf01> Say, you built a wrong piece of road while building a bus terminal and you are fucked
20:03:39 <Eddi|zuHause> needs a planning mode :p
20:04:29 <andythenorth> Wolf01: have we got enough bits for town ROAD? :P
20:05:13 <Wolf01> I think we need 4 more bits for town owner, or just 1 bit to say "owned by town"+current owner
20:05:35 <andythenorth> player can only build if compatible with ROAD
20:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause> 4 bits for road surface type, 5 bits for road owner, 4 bits for decoration type (needs no owner), 4 bits for track type, 4 bits for track owner, 4 bits for catenary type, 4 bits for catenary owner
20:05:45 <andythenorth> not sure what it solves, but player can't take ownership
20:06:12 <andythenorth> catenary is misleading
20:06:47 <Wolf01> If townbit = 0 the owner is the player who built it, if 1 the owner is implicitly the town and the "owner" becomes the player who last modified it
20:07:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that's still 5 bits
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20:08:16 <Wolf01> No, you don't need bits for town owner, towns have all the same owner, so it can be derived from just 1 bit
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20:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's how it works already, except that "owner town" uses all 5 bits from the owner
20:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you split it 4+1, you can store the same thing plus extra owner in the same 5 bits
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20:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> 15 companies plus "owner none" = 4 bits
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20:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you can modify a town road if owner is yourself or none, and the town allows it
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20:16:51 <andythenorth> so what would happen?
20:17:00 <andythenorth> I build roadtype NERF over town ROAD
20:17:08 <andythenorth> what conditions permit that?
20:17:17 <andythenorth> who can overbuild it?
20:17:20 <andythenorth> who can remove it?
20:17:27 <andythenorth> who can build stations on it?
20:17:45 <andythenorth> is it eligible for roadworks?
20:18:43 <Samu> 1 AI remaining, but 32 years away :(
20:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> conditions: owner must be none or you, new roadtype must be compatible with ROAD, you must have town rating
20:19:10 <Eddi|zuHause> later overbuilding: since you are now the owner, nobody else (except town) may overbuild it
20:19:18 <xat> is there a way to show a map in a gmaps style web site ? ;d
20:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> station: everyone
20:20:26 <Eddi|zuHause> xat: there was "pngtile" ages ago, that could produce a scrollable map from a giant screenshot
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20:24:41 <xat> i don't remember but i had maybe a problem with the screenshot size ;o for like 2048² map
20:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds likely :p
20:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2048**2*64*32/1024**3
20:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> needs 8GB of RAM for uncompressed 8bpp data
20:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> most programs will have trouble with that, as they cannot process partial images
20:27:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so I can't own a town? Because it has to be compatible with ROAD?
20:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anything that isn't compatible with ROAD must be built on an empty tile, cannot overbuild an existing road
20:34:18 <andythenorth> I'm going to discount griefing
20:34:22 <andythenorth> it's not interesting
20:34:43 <andythenorth> so what's left to solve?
20:35:06 <Eddi|zuHause> tram vs trolley catenary
20:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause> (catenary is not decoration)
20:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> especially crossing tram and trolley lines
20:36:05 <andythenorth> catenary is just per type
20:36:13 <andythenorth> there is too much confusion about this
20:36:19 <andythenorth> compatibility is from the label
20:36:37 <andythenorth> and whatever the type chooses to draw as catenary, or not, is what is drawn, or not
20:36:56 <andythenorth> there is some mythical implied 'electrified' property, which needs discounting
20:37:40 <andythenorth> if I want to draw christmas lights on ROAD by abusing catenary, that's up to me
20:37:48 <andythenorth> it doesn't electrify TRAM on the same tile
20:38:01 <andythenorth> I am going opposite to frosch123's spec on this :)
20:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a valid opinion, but it doesn't resolve the drawing conflict
20:38:27 <andythenorth> authors will just have to draw carefully
20:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that the road author might be different from the tram author
20:38:56 <andythenorth> yes, but that's a poor choice
20:39:03 <andythenorth> can't help players who have no taste
20:39:11 <andythenorth> we don't prevent e.g. 32bpp EZ
20:39:19 <andythenorth> even though it looks awful
20:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> even then, you still need to provide the grf author with enough tools to handle the situation
20:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> in a deterministic way
20:40:32 <andythenorth> if it's a cb, they're covered
20:40:42 <andythenorth> it's it just sprite numbers, dunno
20:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> a sprite number solution would be preferable speed-wise, i think
20:41:25 <Eddi|zuHause> same reason why railtypes did not get any useful variables
20:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that didn't quite convince me
20:42:04 <andythenorth> I'm not convinced by shared global catenary
20:42:11 <andythenorth> cb performance I can't comment
20:42:37 <andythenorth> Wolf01: if we do NRT right, BGT isn't blocked at all
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21:01:58 <Wolf01> The problem is to avoid to block BGT by fixing some features which shouldn't be fixed
21:08:56 <Wormnest> Samu: New version of NoNoCAB available in case you want to test more ;)
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21:50:03 <nicfer> What's the difference between EXTRACTIVE and ORGANIC industries life_time values?
21:50:54 <nicfer> Does that define the "Forests produce slower" behaviour?
21:53:19 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly also the mine collapse disaster
22:04:35 <nicfer> Well, I was checking the NML part of that grf wiki
22:04:53 <frosch123> they are not always in sync :)
22:04:56 <nicfer> Guess it's not as complete as the newgrf one
22:09:48 <nicfer> Hmmm, that page is also undescriptive
22:11:07 <nicfer> Just the "effect on nearby stations", and nothing about the difference between extractive and organic
22:13:38 <frosch123> it's the only differene
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22:41:05 <supermop> eddi, do you forsee many situations where tram owner is different than tram wires owner?
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22:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: if someone builds a horsetram and someone else electrifies the (now shared) line?
23:19:20 <Samu> Wormnest: just started testing NoNoCAB v5
23:22:02 <Samu> he was doing really well :(
23:22:33 <Samu> so i'm only testing 1 ai
23:26:12 <Wormnest> It´s sad that TracAI´s author disappeared right after releasing the first version.
23:26:29 <Wormnest> There´s probably not much hope for fixes
23:35:02 <Samu> he was really strong with aircraft
23:35:23 <Samu> not that great with train routes though
23:35:44 <Wormnest> No wonder the air part is based on my WormAI :p
23:35:58 <Samu> considering there was infrastructure maintenance costs enabled
23:40:28 <Samu> vehicletype 1, vehicletype 0....´
23:50:15 <Wormnest> Yes, rail 0, road 1, water 2, air 3
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continue to next day ⏵
