IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-01-06
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02:23:26 <XaTriX> is a game script compatible with loading savegame ? it seems inactive after quit and load a savegame
02:23:38 <XaTriX> morning ? 2 am here ;o
02:24:08 <ST2> exactly, day started 2 hours ago xD
02:24:44 <ST2> I thing the save must bebdone with gs on it
02:25:22 <XaTriX> yeah it was activated and running correctly
02:26:04 <XaTriX> in "game suspended" notification i can see old "game script" mention, after loading, appears no more
02:55:35 <XaTriX> can i convert a savegame to a scenario ?
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03:38:56 <XaTriX> ok solv my problem (save to .sav, rename to .scn, reactivate gs in scenario editor, upload to serv, load scn, enjoy)
04:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the game script is responsible for saving and loading its data
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09:21:31 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: snail was last seen in #openttd 7 weeks, 5 days, 10 hours, 50 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Snail> question for you… did you decide whether your vehicles will be deliverable to cities?
09:27:55 <Wolf01> Mmmh power went off this morning and my ups used up to 50% in 1 minute without anything attached (or powered)... time to change the battery
09:32:47 <Wolf01> Mmm there's a new fork of NRT
09:35:45 <Wolf01> andythenorth: did you already synced master with trunk?
09:36:01 <andythenorth> but merge conflicts
09:36:33 <andythenorth> where's the new fork?
09:36:33 <Wolf01> Master should be just a copy of trunk, since the changes are in ratt
09:36:55 <Wolf01> sstabeler/NotRoadTypes
09:37:18 <andythenorth> ok I pushed master synced
09:42:02 <Wolf01> Oh, the conflicts are just plain stupid
09:44:30 <andythenorth> but I don't know the rules, so I didn't touch
09:45:00 <Wolf01> Yes, it changed from 1.7.0 to 1.7.2 - 1.7.2, that's all
09:49:12 <Wolf01> Lets see how much it takes to push...
10:01:19 <Wolf01> Considering to move the electrification bit on the tile and check it against vehicle typeinfo bit, your original idea
10:01:38 <Wolf01> Graphics aren't a problem, road takes precedence
10:02:05 <Wolf01> Mixing catenaries might be resolved later grf side
10:03:04 <Wolf01> No more confusion on "is this tile electrified?"
10:19:16 <DorpsGek> Flygon: Flygon was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 18 hours, 27 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <Flygon> (I would've preferred the other version of the scene where she laughs for the first time. But, alas, they didn't film it. They went with the Copulation Scene instead. @_@)
10:19:31 <Flygon> I'm not sure what I expected but I didn't expect that quote.
10:21:32 <andythenorth> there are so many ideas about catenary :P
10:24:12 <Wolf01> Ok, HasPowerOnRoad shouldn't change at all, The only think I should change is when I draw the catenary
10:26:55 <Wolf01> Mmmh no, the change should be both on the HasPowerOnRoad and grf side
10:27:54 <Wolf01> EL* should be able to run on normal IF the tile has catenary
10:29:34 <Wolf01> So you have to define both RAIL->ELRL and ELRL->RAIL+CATENARY, now is only RAIL-ELRL
10:30:37 <Wolf01> In this case ELRL should just be a logic type, not a buildable type
10:31:08 <Wolf01> What do you think andythenorth?
10:31:54 <Wolf01> It could be a buildable type which just builds RAIL and sets the catenary bit
10:32:27 <Wolf01> But on the vehicle sets a flag to check if there is the catenary
10:43:00 <andythenorth> it boggles my brain TBH :)
10:43:27 <andythenorth> might be simpler overall though
10:45:46 <Wolf01> I would just remove ELRD and ELRL from the existence, they are ROAD and RAIL + catenary which is on the tile (and later on groundtype if frosch wants to add it)
10:45:52 <andythenorth> if were starting from day 0
10:45:59 <andythenorth> I would separate powertype
10:46:10 <andythenorth> so there is a tool to add catenary/third rail etc
10:47:16 <Wolf01> Now just catenary, and grf continues to define the graphic
10:48:41 <andythenorth> what does Eddi|zuHause think? o_O
10:49:24 <Wolf01> "catenary" is a bit, so if you add a third rail to a normal road, you will get road catenary + third rail, and both trolleybus+third rail can travel there
10:50:27 <Wolf01> Later we might change it by moving the bit on thegroundtype and ask it for what is going on there
10:52:40 <Wolf01> But it might still be there a problem where you may think that a ELRL can travel on 3RL since there is the catenary... well... yes, there is the catenary
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10:57:08 <Wolf01> ELRL can travel on 3RL but not vice versa, since ELRL just checks for rails and catenary but 3RL has another compatibility check (powered_roadtypes)
10:58:35 <Wolf01> This mean you can't have a 3RL without catenary, which is weird
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11:01:23 <Wolf01> Or better, since 3RL just defines the rail graphics (to show the third rail), if you build it you will get ELRL trams running over it without catenary shown, which is weird enough to make me rethink of this whole thing
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11:12:03 <andythenorth> I have chores to do, but BIAB
11:12:28 <andythenorth> I think frosch has a point about force-upgrading road/tramtype to electrified version
11:12:45 <andythenorth> if both are present on a tile, and one is electrified, the other is forced to a new label too
11:13:11 <andythenorth> it seems iniitally very complex, but overall might be cleanest solution
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13:13:24 <andythenorth> Wolf01: so what UX problem are we solving with catenary? o_O
13:14:04 <Wolf01> The problem was the one to tell which between road and tram had the catenary
13:14:21 <Wolf01> Solution: one catenary for them all
13:14:56 <andythenorth> so the UX problem is "my trams don't work" ?
13:15:22 <Wolf01> I then moved the problem to ELRL vs 3RL
13:23:34 <andythenorth> and the other UX problem is "I can't electrify town roads" ?
13:24:20 <andythenorth> and even if I could, how the hell does it work in MP?
13:24:55 <Wolf01> You can electrify your roads and town roads
13:25:20 <Wolf01> You can remove electrification from your roads but not from town roads
13:25:24 <andythenorth> but if I electrify your town road?
13:25:37 <andythenorth> or I change the electrification type on your town road?
13:25:37 <Wolf01> You can only "upgrade" town roads
13:28:12 <andythenorth> if we didn't piss about with 3rd rail, ropeway, induction-at-a-distance etc
13:28:15 <andythenorth> then it would be easier
13:28:36 <andythenorth> it was just 'catenary or not'
13:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> what constitutes an "upgrade"?
13:42:34 <Rubidium> that's obvious... from smooth asphalt to cobble stones is an upgrade
13:45:18 <Wolf01> Upgrade is something which add and not breaks compatibility
13:46:36 <Rubidium> so high speed rail is not an upgrade
13:47:08 <Rubidium> but usually removes tonnage, like in France
13:47:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it might remove compatibility for slow trains
13:48:10 <Wolf01> When OTTD will have those concepts then we'll decide
13:48:23 <Flygon> Higher speed rail usually adds tonnage in AU. :V
13:48:33 <Samu> syntrans is stuck trying to build a bridge over a rail :(
13:48:40 <Flygon> Which may be more indicative about how poor our tracks are in the first place.
13:49:15 <Flygon> (On the other hand, RFR track is built to such a high standard, I could reasonably expect a TGV or Shinkansen to go 250km/h through it without issue.)
13:49:59 <Rubidium> shinkansen might actually be problematic given their width
13:50:17 <Flygon> Okay, strictly speaking about track _condition_. Not loading gauge. :D
13:52:32 <Wolf01> I think V left F open all the night, maybe he collapsed playing
13:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that how you're meant to play F?
13:54:00 <Wolf01> Eh, but like that he builds up playtime, it's not fair :D
14:03:17 <LordAro> andythenorth: irssi is rendering that link as bold, somehow
14:03:38 <andythenorth> I formatted it as bold, somehow :P
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14:57:14 <planetmaker> interesting proposal with the ButGroundTypes
14:58:45 <andythenorth> interesting if extended to stations
15:01:39 <frosch123> maybe road and tramtype should be dropped completely
15:02:00 <frosch123> i seen nothing useful in vehicle compatibility
15:02:48 <frosch123> incompatibility seems to be only used in realism bs, and what would realism bs do to roads?
15:03:11 <frosch123> the railtype compatibility rules do not event work for highway
15:03:34 <frosch123> for railtypes the better railtype always supports the previous ones
15:03:58 <frosch123> it would not disabllow a hews crawler to drive on a highway
15:09:08 <planetmaker> I think mostly RoadTypes is about having different choice of roads. At least to me, the impact on vehicles need not extend beyond a general speed limit
15:09:23 <planetmaker> and choice of roads as in only a visual thing, nothing else
15:09:50 <frosch123> yep, also my thought, only visual, no compatibility stuff
15:09:54 <planetmaker> so... yeah, it's more a groundtype thing - though ground types looks to me like grass, desert, water,...
15:10:11 <frosch123> yes, that's what andy mentioned
15:10:49 <frosch123> merging newobjects and non-track stations, and merging rail and road underground
15:11:52 <frosch123> but the borders between those two are not particulary sharp/clear
15:13:36 <planetmaker> well, stations... the only difference of an object and a non-track station is the catchment area
15:13:43 <planetmaker> from a player perspective
15:14:15 <frosch123> yeah, and i never liked that they add to catchment :p
15:15:04 <planetmaker> :D Well, that's how station work... and if they don't, people would add track tiles there
15:15:34 <planetmaker> It's more a social thing that they allow to build HUGE stations - but you can limit station size already, so that's not a big thing, IMHO
15:16:11 <frosch123> like f logistic bots :p
15:32:15 <Wormnest> Looking at oil rigs it seems the dock location is always the norther most tile. I assume it´s an invisible 2 tile dock since ships always seem to stop south west of the oil rig
15:32:54 <Wormnest> Is the dock layout for water industries always like that: from north to south west or is a dock pointing to the south east also possible
15:35:00 <frosch123> the dock tile is always a plain water tile without industry graphics
15:35:10 <frosch123> so industries like to hide it behind other tiles
15:35:49 <frosch123> the position is arbitrary, but most industries will put it somehow centerish in the back, since that's best for visuals
15:36:44 <frosch123> also, it's a single tile
15:36:52 <frosch123> ships stop in front of it or so
15:37:28 <Wormnest> Hm but with an oilrig I did BuildSign for the tile reported for the dock and it seemd to be the tile of the uppermost oil rig part
15:38:11 <frosch123> the newgrf defines which tile becomes the station
15:38:11 <Wormnest> However the ships seem to stop at the sourth west thus not a tile connected to the tile reported for the dock, or am i blind lol
15:38:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm pretty unconvinced by RoadTypes
15:39:31 <andythenorth> on the +ve side, it is good to be able to force different kinds of roads
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15:41:39 <frosch123> Wormnest: you are right, the ship heads to tile (2,0) relative to the station tile
15:42:18 <andythenorth> something about compatibility is all wrong
15:42:22 <andythenorth> even in railtypes :P
15:42:27 <andythenorth> I figured it out once
15:43:15 <Wormnest> Thanks frosch123 I´ll have a look
15:44:47 <andythenorth> I only wanted 4 types :P
15:45:38 <andythenorth> road, haul; tram, eltram
15:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's your problem, you go into development of the general thing with a specific use case in mind
15:55:12 <Wormnest> frosch123: Does that mean that other (newgrf) water industries can define their own offset?
15:58:17 <frosch123> Wormnest: no, i just learned about this offset :p
15:58:40 <frosch123> it means that the tile in x+2 from the station must be accessible and not covered by the industry
16:00:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrt, that's not the problem
16:01:14 <Wormnest> Thanks that makes checking easier :)
16:01:19 <andythenorth> presumably you have a general spec ready Eddi|zuHause ?
16:02:54 <Borg> sooo.. no opinions? on my GRF?
16:04:40 <andythenorth> sorry Borg, I have nothing :
16:05:19 <frosch123> Borg: noone who does stuff for ottd gets feedback :)
16:05:59 <frosch123> andy and V mention that all the time
16:06:16 <andythenorth> I released FIRS 3
16:06:41 <andythenorth> Borg: what you need to do is make 200 jerk-off real world liveries on the same train
16:06:47 <andythenorth> then you get much plaudits
16:06:55 <andythenorth> doesn't even have to be good sprite
16:09:07 <Borg> uhm... whatever he had in mind...
16:11:26 <Samu> 7 AI's remaining for testing
16:13:15 <Samu> wait a min, i missed one
16:14:31 <Wormnest> You might need to do a retest of NoNoCAB if I can finish the changes this weekend (probably not) :p
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16:37:12 <Samu> I got some nice surprises this time around
16:37:50 <Samu> played for 100 years, pathfinding forever
16:38:46 <Samu> roadai doesn't deal well with cargodist
16:39:24 <Samu> always nearing bankrupting, but surviving
16:40:08 <Samu> epictrans did actually play great
16:42:37 <Samu> nonocab had a really bad start
16:42:55 <Samu> i thought it would bankrupt, but turned it around
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16:53:11 <Samu> some ais take too much time to actually build a route
16:53:29 <Samu> it was part of the test though, but still...
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18:30:01 <andythenorth> Wolf01: did you solve it? o_O
18:30:27 <Wolf01> Nope, I built 2 outposts on F
18:31:23 <andythenorth> kind of wondering about just having a catenary tool
18:31:28 <andythenorth> and be done with it
18:31:34 <andythenorth> just electrified bit
18:32:26 <andythenorth> there is zero reward in doing anything else on NRT
18:32:36 <andythenorth> too many people want too many different things
18:32:53 <andythenorth> and the blocking problems are really uninteresting
18:39:46 <supermop> andythenorth I replied in your firs thread
18:41:39 <andythenorth> I also ignore some industries in Extreme
18:41:44 <andythenorth> it's also not very Extreme really
18:41:53 <andythenorth> Steeltown is much more intense
18:42:05 <supermop> I think being free to ignore some is probably a feature not a bug
18:42:47 <supermop> Maybe there is scope for a 'developed world urban basic'
18:43:13 <supermop> but steeltown seems a good balance
18:44:43 <supermop> i'd be sad to lose the distinction between bus and rail wires in NRT, and the room for nuance in catenary graphics that comes with it, but if that's what it takes to ship i'll live with it
18:45:35 <supermop> i wonder how best to make a cable car in that case
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18:51:49 <supermop> kind of weird that scrap only goes to arc furnace
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19:01:58 <supermop> also what is a limestone mine
19:02:28 <glx> I guess it's where you extract limestone :)
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19:45:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27960 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2018-01-06 19:45:38 +0100 )
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> spanish (mexican): 2 changes by Absay
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20:48:20 <andythenorth> I should just draw ships eh
20:48:36 <andythenorth> dunno, the NRT thing kind of kills my interest
20:51:30 <Borg> andythenorth: just join our server and have some fun ;]
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22:25:51 <Rybeast> Sorry to be a nuisance, but I was wondering if someone might be able to help? I've downloaded one of the NGRFs which contains British Rail skins, but now I've created a scenario, I seem to have lost the default coal wagons. The only trailers I have are passenger stock and nothing else - what have I done wrong?
22:26:13 <Rybeast> I'd have posted on the Forums, but I can't remember my username, so can't use the reset option :/
22:28:03 <andythenorth> do you have the buy menu filter on for 'passengers' Rybeast ?
22:29:10 <Rybeast> I've checked in the drop down lists to run through all of the options, iron ore, coal, mail etc. The only non-passenger cargo that works is the 'mail' as one of the Mk.1 carriages carries both people and mail
22:30:10 <Borg> I got message to buy out human company... because it was going to bankrupt soon.. what would happen?
22:30:18 <Borg> companies would be merged?
22:30:35 <Borg> I hit no.. but I remember on AI games.. I took over company
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22:39:41 <stefino> Hi...if I wanna to replace base graphics from "extra sprites" (rivers, trams etc.) ..I have to replace all graphics or can I raplace only some of this sprites? Cause in NML it write that I have to define all sprites. Thanks :)
22:52:06 <andythenorth> can replace only some
22:52:56 <Rybeast> @andythenorth = did you get my reply?
22:55:10 <stefino> andythenorth: can you tell me how please? :)
22:57:48 <stefino> ps What type are rivers in replacenew command?
22:58:29 <planetmaker> rivers... it's not like there's different types
22:59:24 <planetmaker> But you have to replace all sprites of a single set of sprites with a replacenew command, thus all river sprites
23:00:02 <Rybeast> Is there anyone else online who is good with nGRF and not being able to find default wagons?
23:00:26 <stefino> yes this was my question...if it is possible to replace only selected sprites ...
23:01:24 <andythenorth> Rybeast: does the grf provide wagons?
23:02:48 <Rybeast> <andythenorth> erm... I don't know? Will I have to download more nGRF to replace the default ones that the other one has banished?
23:03:34 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly are you trying to do?
23:03:45 <Rybeast> BR Trains, eVRTS are the nGRFs I've downloaded
23:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly are you trying to do?
23:04:58 <andythenorth> Rybeast: dunno if BR Trains has wagons
23:05:03 <andythenorth> it's not exactly finished
23:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Rybeast: i think you should try a grf like OpenGFX+Trains
23:07:21 <stefino> planetmaker: yes I know that there are no Rivers in the list but thought that it is not updated for example
23:07:22 <Rybeast> Andy, Eddie - If I'm wanting to have better skins like the BR trains provides, what do I do?
23:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you mean?
23:08:59 <Rybeast> Well, the reason I downloaded that particular pack was because I wanted the skins it provided, but I obviously need the wagons and the like to actually do well... Is it possible to have the particular file I've got and retain the default wagons?
23:10:03 <planetmaker> Rybeast, if you only want a new locomotive engine: just add that, and don't bother with any wagons
23:10:08 <andythenorth> Rybeast: you would need a new game
23:10:16 <andythenorth> you can't safely add to current game
23:10:18 <planetmaker> default vehicles will be kept. But yeah... not in an existing game
23:11:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Rybeast: just start a new game with both BR Trains and OpenGFX+Trains. that should do what you need
23:11:45 <stefino> oh my god :D but thanks :)
23:12:02 <Rybeast> That;s fine, so just an additional download. Thank you
23:12:28 <stefino> so in this code I can replace only selected sprites , is it true?
23:13:28 <planetmaker> what is 'this code'?
23:13:54 <stefino> your code what you sent few minutes ago
23:14:34 <andythenorth> Rybeast: or use Iron Horse, it's brit-ish-ish
23:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: i think rivers work different than you expect them to. but i don't know how rivers work, so i can't help you
23:14:58 <planetmaker> of course you can replace single sprites. If you have all the other sprites. And if memory serves me well you might be able to pull this off only in a base set
23:16:05 <Rybeast> so now, if I want to edit a scenario to incclude the new nGRF, can I do that? Or do I have to create another scenario again?
23:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (*we don't talk about it)
23:17:38 <stefino> planetmaker: I'm going to try it, thanks :)
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