IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-30
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00:00:24 <Samu> ScriptCargoMonitor::GetIndustryDeliveryAmount
00:00:30 <Samu> is this for game scripts?
00:00:31 <ST2> Samu: disable it, compile and check ^^
00:02:08 <Samu> this monitoring seems to be buggy
00:02:34 <Samu> if an industry is temporarily refusing cargo
00:02:46 <Samu> but the other one nearby is not,
00:03:12 <Samu> the monitoring will add that as if it was delivered
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00:04:28 <Samu> or maybe i'm misinterpreting the purpose
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00:05:13 <ST2> why asking me about a newgrf from last century that's bugged by itself?
00:06:17 <Samu> but this thing is still stored in savegames
00:06:27 <Samu> and is updated often, however, i'm not sure what's for
00:07:33 <ST2> me neither, I know that a wheel is round and I don't try to reinventing it
00:08:23 <Samu> i am wondering if it's related to a bug that happens with busybee
00:09:03 <ST2> note: dnt mix game code with GS's
00:10:23 <Samu> wasn't there a bug with busybee detecting cargo deliveries? i remember something
00:11:15 <Samu> if this CargoMonitorMap is used for Game Scripts, it could be related
00:24:04 <Samu> imagine you're delivering 10 tonnes of whatever and there are 2 industries that accept it, industry index 0 and 1
00:24:20 <Samu> index 0 is, however, currently refusing it
00:24:45 <Samu> however, when sending this information to cargomonitor
00:24:57 <Samu> it seems to reduce to both industries, the same amount
00:25:22 <Cubey> Perhaps this is a little used function that is not working correctly?
00:26:17 <Samu> wish i could interpret this part of the code better
00:27:23 <Samu> the nearest industry gets it
00:27:31 <Samu> nearest to the station in distance manhattan
00:30:02 <Samu> cargomonitor appears to take care of nearest industry as well
00:30:45 <Samu> but not when nearest industry refuses it
00:33:04 <Samu> look at cargomonitor.cpp, line 153
00:33:54 <Samu> then look at economy.cpp, line 1035
00:37:01 <Samu> AddCargoDelivery(cargo_type, company->index, accepted, src_type, src, st);
00:38:26 <Samu> the "accepted" is the cargo amount that was accepted at that station, but the monitoring seems not to care which industry accepted
00:41:25 <Cubey> So it sounds like the cargo monitor "works," just not exactly as described
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01:09:19 <Afdal> Could someone tell me the proper syntax for setting variables from console again
01:09:25 <Afdal> I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong here
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01:10:05 <Afdal> isn't it just "set net_frame_freq 8" for instance?
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01:19:09 <Samu> can u spot the difference on these two?
01:19:15 <Samu> if (HasIndustryStation(ind) && IsTileType(st->xy, MP_STATION) && !IsOilRig(st->xy) && !_settings_game.station.accept_indcargo_at_nonindstation) continue;
01:19:20 <Samu> if (!HasIndustryStation(ind) && IsTileType(st->xy, MP_STATION) && IsOilRig(st->xy) && !_settings_game.station.accept_nonindcargo_at_indstation) continue;
01:27:26 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly with =?
01:38:25 <nick213> Hi, is there a fix to the bug where right click drag scrolling is broken on winblows10 after the last big update?
01:39:31 <Cubey> I think I have heard that is caused by something windows 10 is doing with "mouse gestures," which I hope you can turn off
01:40:11 <Cubey> I don't use that OS so I don't know how that is done
01:40:56 <nick213> Thanks, I will look it up
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02:48:11 <supermop_home> here is something odd:
02:48:51 <supermop_home> build a truck loading bay with houses in its catchment: it won't accept passengers
02:49:54 <supermop_home> build a dock etc with houses that accepts passengers
02:50:03 <supermop_home> then attach a truck station
02:50:14 <supermop_home> then remove the dock
02:50:28 <supermop_home> now you have a truck bay that accepts passengers
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08:18:15 <zermizh> i wish i had known about openttd like 10 years ago. i used to play this stuff when i was 6 or something
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09:17:43 <PressureLine> haha I remember playing TTO like 20 years ago
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09:48:11 <PressureLine> Why can't I get a 'happy medium' between:
09:48:12 <PressureLine> "so many industries on a map I spend half my time routing trains around them"
09:48:59 <PressureLine> "wtf the 'only' paper mill is 1000 tiles from all the forests"
09:49:28 <Wolf01> Map size and number of towns affect industries
09:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: what if the wolf is not early, but the time is late?
09:54:26 <PressureLine> seems a tad excessive for Low/Low on a 512*1024
09:55:06 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: especially today that is a possibility indeed
09:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> PressureLine: consider that the map size just multiplies everything from the original 256x256, instead of spacing things out
09:58:54 <PressureLine> just weird is all, that setting the industires to V.Low
09:59:04 <PressureLine> turns the map into a howling wilderness
09:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> try towns to v.low and industries to low?
09:59:45 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly enabling/disabling multiple of the same industry per town?
10:06:09 <PressureLine> more of a general gripe really.
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13:41:21 <Samu> v3 is posted, also edited the topic
13:41:31 <Samu> tell me if it's still confusing
13:46:30 <Samu> Allow non-industry stations to be supplied with cargo supplied by the industry
13:46:47 <Samu> must shorten it, any halp!
13:47:23 <Samu> Allow non-industry stations to supply cargo supplied by its industry?
13:48:00 <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand"
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13:49:09 <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand"
13:49:53 <PressureLine> cargodist can route 'other' cargos through the oilrig stations
13:50:39 <Samu> oh, this is not directly related to cargodist
13:51:01 <PressureLine> like if there is a wood carrying helicopter that lands at the rig, it caould drop the wood and the wood be picked up by a ship (or whatever) for onwards transport
13:51:30 <PressureLine> when disabled the wood can not be dropped off at the station?
13:51:44 <Samu> the industry or an industry nearby must accept wood, right?
13:52:05 <PressureLine> with cargodist, not neccesarily
13:52:31 <Samu> i really wish to know how cargodist behaves
13:53:01 <Samu> it may affect cargodist in some way, but i'm not directly making changes to cargodist code
13:53:46 <PressureLine> (not directly realted to settings phrasing but...) the reason I ask is:
13:53:59 <PressureLine> a) to figure out what the setting does
13:54:20 <PressureLine> b) wondering if it might break cargodist in some way
13:55:31 <PressureLine> the idea with cargodist is that it can give an invisible 'transfer' order to all or part of a vehicles load
13:57:11 <Samu> okay let me think. this is a bit confusing even for me if the oil rig station
13:57:42 <PressureLine> so in the screenshot
13:57:54 <PressureLine> the trams have 2 orders
13:58:15 <PressureLine> "Full Load Any Cargo" at Puthwaite Springs Mines
13:58:45 <PressureLine> and "Goto Brindingstone Mines"
13:59:57 <PressureLine> cargodist tells the trams "unload & leave empty" at Brindingstone so that the Iron Ore can be loaded onto the big ore trains that head off to the northwest
14:00:27 <Samu> Brindingstone Mines doesn't accept iron ore, but it's still transferred there, right?
14:00:47 <PressureLine> brindingstone doesnt accept anything iirc
14:02:12 <PressureLine> so if you're blocking 'forced' unloading (of non accepted cargos) at intrinsic stations (oil rigs)
14:02:28 <PressureLine> cargodist has to have some way of knowing
14:03:12 <PressureLine> otherwise it may try to route 'other' cargoes through the oil rig station
14:03:25 <Samu> if the oil rig station never provides wood, but an helicopter brings wood there, what is supposed to happen?
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14:04:18 <PressureLine> if, for some reason there is a way for the wood to get from the oilrig to it's eventual destination (other than by staying on the helo)
14:04:58 <PressureLine> it would get unloaded at the oilrig, then get picked up by the next vehicle that gets the wood closer to it's destination
14:05:11 <Samu> in the case of the iron ore transfer, there is another iron ore there
14:05:32 <PressureLine> if the brindingstone iron ore mine closes down
14:05:42 <PressureLine> it will all still work
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14:06:04 <Samu> ok let me test this out, brb
14:07:24 <PressureLine> go townA->oilrig and townB->oilrig, with separate ships (or helicopters) for each leg
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14:11:20 <Samu> ship 1, town a to oil rig
14:11:28 <Samu> ship 2, town b to oil rig
14:12:18 <Samu> oh, mail, sure, i was trying passenger, my bad
14:12:33 <PressureLine> doesn;t matter too much, as long as that cargo type is set to either asymmetric or symmetric
14:12:51 <PressureLine> setting it to manual essentially disables cargodist
14:13:49 <Samu> i don't think it will make a difference
14:13:55 <Samu> the oil rig always accepts mail
14:14:22 <Samu> but i dunno how cargo dist work, so let's see
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14:17:50 <Samu> i see the ships sometimes do transfer, sometimes do income
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14:19:08 <PressureLine> just scrolled down in the topic and saw the screenshots
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14:19:57 <PressureLine> weird that IOre would stockpile @ the oilrig, guess it has a catchment area just like any other station?
14:21:10 <PressureLine> massive brain fart
14:21:57 <PressureLine> just realised that 'accept' has a very specific meaning in regards to OpenTTD stations
14:22:01 <Samu> i take it my descriptions are still confusing
14:22:54 <PressureLine> is in "accept = i will recieve payment for cargo of this type unloaded here"
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14:24:36 <PressureLine> <Samu> i take it my descriptions are still confusing
14:24:56 <PressureLine> what is the difference between:
14:25:12 <PressureLine> "When disabled, stations attached to industries, such as Oil Rigs, won't accept cargo that is not accepted by the industries these stations are attached to"
14:25:26 <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand"
14:27:21 <Samu> for the first, if the oil rig accepts passengers, and a power station that accepts coal, the oil rig station won't accept coal
14:29:03 <Samu> yeah, even myself get confused
14:29:47 <PressureLine> so if you have a tain station, whose catcchment area covers the oil rig
14:30:02 <PressureLine> it will get [a portion of] the oil generated
14:30:27 <PressureLine> if the setting is 'Enabled'
14:30:55 <Samu> if enabled, it behaves as of 1.7.1
14:31:16 <Samu> that is about cargo supply
14:31:41 <PressureLine> so the passengers the oil rigs accept
14:32:05 <PressureLine> if i have a train station, whose catchment area covers the rig
14:32:21 <PressureLine> even if the train station covers nothing else
14:32:37 <PressureLine> it will accept passengers
14:32:55 <PressureLine> [with the setting set to 'Enabled']
14:33:21 <PressureLine> dangerous setting
14:33:40 <PressureLine> i make a new industry newgrf
14:33:44 <Samu> train station is a non-industry station
14:34:05 <PressureLine> it is a steel mill, with a *built-in* train station
14:34:08 <Samu> allow train station to accept cargo accepted by the industry
14:34:32 <PressureLine> (idk if that is even possible, but whatever)
14:34:33 <Samu> if enabled, the train station will accept passengers
14:34:48 <Samu> if disabled, the train station won't accept passengers
14:35:10 <PressureLine> if i 'disable' that setting (because it makes sense for oil rigs)
14:35:37 <PressureLine> it would mean that I would *only* be able to unload IOre at the built-in station
14:35:41 <Samu> are there steel mills with built-in train stations?
14:36:11 <PressureLine> like i said, i don't know if that is even *possible*
14:37:08 <PressureLine> steel mill with a helipad
14:37:35 <PressureLine> now can only accept steel landed on the roof by helicopter
14:37:40 <Samu> as long as the station is of type OIL_RIG
14:37:52 <Samu> my code should still work
14:38:06 <PressureLine> in the case of my steel mill helipad
14:38:40 <PressureLine> i think the station type would probably *have* to be OIL_RIG
14:39:12 <Samu> +bool HasIndustryStation(const Industry *i)
14:39:20 <PressureLine> more descriptive desriptions!
14:39:28 <Samu> it iterates over all industry tiles
14:40:31 <Samu> i think gfx 24 is special
14:41:13 <Samu> two of them arranged together, will make one to transform itself into an OIL_RIG station
14:41:47 <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations, such as Oil Rigs, can only recieve [accept?] goods from their attached station."
14:42:42 <PressureLine> Goods *is* a cargo lol
14:43:49 <Samu> can only accept goods their industry with an attached station accepts, lol
14:44:45 <PressureLine> 2nd Setting: Title: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by the industry"
14:45:23 <PressureLine> better but still lacking. I tell my wife off for saying things like that.
14:46:05 <PressureLine> because it is very unclear which industry(ies) it is actually talking about
14:49:34 <PressureLine> 2nd Setting: Title: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by industries with attached stations"
14:49:53 <supermop> found another alignment issue
15:04:47 <Samu> 2nd setting tittle: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by industries with attached station"
15:05:00 <Samu> but then it becomes gigantic line
15:06:02 <Samu> we need a master english
15:07:14 <Samu> "allow train station to accept passengers when the attached station of an industry accepts passengers"
15:07:23 <Samu> pretty hard to shorten this
15:08:20 <Samu> allow non-industry stations to accept cargo accepted by the attached industry?
15:08:56 <PressureLine> <Samu> we need a master english
15:09:14 <PressureLine> considering that English is the *only* language I speak
15:09:32 <PressureLine> In theory, I should be a master
15:09:43 <PressureLine> in practice... not so much :D
15:11:25 <Samu> allow other stations near an industry to accept cargo
15:12:25 <PressureLine> but it needs to be clear that it is only for industries with an attached/integral station
15:13:52 <Samu> allow other stations near an indunstry station to accept its cargo
15:14:35 <Samu> Allow other stations near an industry station to accept its cargo
15:15:21 <PressureLine> and out of cigarettes >_<
15:16:12 <Wolf01> I'm out of biscuits again
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15:16:44 <andythenorth> Computer terminals report some gains in the values of copper and tin
15:16:44 <andythenorth> While American businessmen snap up Van Goghs
15:16:45 <andythenorth> For the price of a hospital wing
15:17:42 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ACCEPT_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION
15:17:50 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ACCEPT_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION
15:18:01 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION
15:18:04 <PressureLine> leave them like that
15:18:10 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION
15:18:29 <LordAro> andythenorth: i've not heard that in quite some time
15:18:43 * andythenorth adding tin to Steeltown
15:19:11 <PressureLine> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ACCEPT_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION = "Accept non-industry cargo at industry station"
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15:19:16 <andythenorth> both Scottish eh :P
15:19:45 <PressureLine> damn. where did that screenshot go
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15:20:29 <andythenorth> maybe Steeltown is Destiny
15:21:14 <supermop> hmm i have never heard of that band
15:21:17 <PressureLine> ive noticed some of the trams in Road Hog aren't aligned to the 'standard' tram tracks?
15:21:42 <andythenorth> looks like a bug
15:21:57 <supermop> PressureLine: i have noticed the same on some of my trams
15:22:24 <PressureLine> idk if it's just the default tram tracks being'too' narrow gauge
15:22:31 <supermop> if you dont mind looking at them to find other alignment issues -
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15:23:18 <Samu> gonna rename to "Accept non-industry cargo at industry station", if it's clearer than "Allow industry stations to accept cargo to other destinations"
15:23:20 <supermop> PressureLine: i find they are aligned on one side and not on the other, so i worry that fixing it in template would mean the alignment no longer works when driving on other side
15:23:44 <supermop> Andy draws for drive on left, so you could try that and see if the problem remains???
15:23:51 <PressureLine> i think i've only been using them in 'drive on right'
15:24:03 <supermop> otherwise, it might be better to 'fix' the track spacing
15:24:36 <supermop> i can't decide if i am going to fix the trams or the tracks - i need to test more with other sets and with drive on left
15:25:52 <Samu> that's it, gonna rename the things
15:26:18 <Samu> it needed to be shorter anyway
15:26:30 <PressureLine> looks like for road hog its a 'drive on right' thing
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15:29:17 <PressureLine> great set though!
15:32:35 <PressureLine> I'd actually been thinking of getting Foobar's tram tracks, but since I mostly do cargo games, and usually only use trams and trucks for short feeders it's never been enough of an issue for me worry about it too much
15:34:19 <Samu> peter1138: do you english?
15:34:33 <PressureLine> anyway. better get some sleep so i can be of *some* use at work tomorrow
15:34:50 <PressureLine> erm... later this morning i guess.
15:41:08 <Samu> and probably more misleading
15:43:34 <peter1138> So many settings :S
15:44:25 <Samu> but describing them in a short manner is the biggest issue
15:44:32 <peter1138> Why does it need four?
15:44:43 <Samu> because they're 4 behaviours
15:46:15 <Samu> it needs 4 because supermop wanted customization
15:46:27 <Samu> and it makes sense to be 4
15:48:21 <Samu> even explaining each is hard
15:49:07 <Samu> accept non industry cargo at industry station
15:49:16 <Samu> industry station in this case is "oil rig station"
15:49:35 <Samu> accept non industry cargo means, for example
15:50:04 <Samu> accept coal which a nearby station, other than the oil rig station, accepts
15:50:31 <Samu> if the catchment area of the oil rig reaches the power plant, the setting lets you the oil rig accept coal or not
15:51:02 <Samu> looks like my explanation is bad too
15:51:44 <Samu> accept coal which a nearby industry, other than the oil rig industry, accepts*
15:53:16 <Samu> accept coal which a nearby industry accepts, instead of accepting it at the oil rig station when it's catchment radius reaches the other industry?
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15:53:25 <Samu> see? this is why it's hell explaining
15:53:57 <Samu> Alberth: do you english more than peter1138 ?
15:55:19 <LordAro> peter1138 doesn't know any English
15:57:26 <Alberth> what is a non-industry cargo?
15:57:39 <Alberth> all cargo comes from industry, doesn't it?
15:58:40 <Samu> non-industry cargo is for example, coal
15:58:54 <Samu> if coal is accepted at the oil rig station catchment area
15:59:02 <Samu> because a power plant is nearby
15:59:27 <Alberth> I am pretty sure a coal-mine is an industry
15:59:45 <Samu> ok, explaining is the hard part
16:00:06 <supermop> Alberth: he means it is not for the industry of which the station is a part
16:00:43 <Samu> yes, plz help me, i need help indeed
16:01:21 <Samu> oil rig, the industry, accepts passenger and mail
16:01:29 <Samu> oil rig, the station, can accept more than that
16:01:39 <Alberth> coal mine also accepts passengers iirc
16:01:40 <Samu> if there is for example, a power plant within catchment radius
16:01:50 <Alberth> although you need more than one to acceptance, iirc
16:03:06 <Samu> the setting makes so that the oil rig, the station, only accept that which the oil rig industry, accepts
16:03:21 <Samu> because it's attached to it
16:03:51 <Alberth> text doesn't say anything specific about that station, just stations in general
16:04:07 <Alberth> and those are not related to industries at all, afiak
16:04:14 <Samu> i needed a generalistic approach
16:04:23 <Samu> because of newgrfs, re-using oil rigs
16:04:35 <Alberth> water-based industry would do, imho
16:04:38 <Samu> firs uses dredge site, sandbank
16:05:24 <Samu> it can't be water-based industry, either
16:05:40 <Samu> there are some firs water based industries without neutral stations
16:07:22 <Samu> the settings are related to industries with attached stations
16:07:47 <Samu> it made more sense to me to group them into Environment/Industries
16:08:16 <Samu> but they're also station related
16:08:26 <Samu> so, it's a mix of both station and industry
16:08:32 <Samu> not sure where i would put them
16:12:16 <Alberth> ports are not water-based, you can't build them in the water
16:13:18 <Alberth> by generalizing, you include all stations, which is not what your patch is doing, afaik
16:14:07 <Samu> the patch affects both stations
16:14:22 <Samu> oil rigs, and "not oil rigs"
16:15:24 <Samu> setting 1 and 3 is for oil rigs
16:15:39 <Samu> setting 2 and 4 is for other stations nearby
16:17:01 <Alberth> you should probably not talk about stations in context of oilrigs, as there is no station drawn
16:17:30 <Alberth> ie what happens technically is not always what a user sees.
16:19:01 <Alberth> to a user, the industry itself handles cargo transfer
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16:21:51 <Samu> are there water based industryies without a neutral station?
16:25:54 <Samu> for me it isn't obvious that ports are not water based
16:26:01 <Samu> most of it is on water :(
16:26:57 <Samu> if it can be generalized to "water-based industries", wouldn't it be confusing?
16:29:27 <Samu> hmm oilrigs don't have a station drawn
16:33:09 <Samu> "accept non-industry cargo at industry station" = "allow water-based industries to accept cargo accepted by the nearby industries other than this"
16:33:27 <Samu> sometimes it's not even nearby industries, but towns
16:35:15 <Samu> "accept cargo accepted by the surroundings at water-based industries"
16:36:36 <Samu> english is the biggest issue here
16:36:51 <Samu> cus the patch is doing it's work correctly
16:39:24 <Alberth> allow water-based industries to accept other cargoes than their own
16:40:21 <Alberth> or "... than what they need"
16:41:13 <Samu> "Allow water-based industries to accept other cargoes than what they need"
16:43:10 <Alberth> it's just a suggestion
16:43:20 <Samu> "Water industries accept other cargoes than what they need"
16:43:48 <Samu> yes, it's just that it may need horizontal scrolling
16:45:51 <Samu> woah, it fits, it's nearly in the limit
16:46:10 <Alberth> "Water industries accept other cargoes"
16:47:16 <Alberth> window size doesn't mean much. Pick another font or another size, and it fails
16:47:59 <Samu> "water industries accept other cargoes"
16:48:47 <Samu> it's not exactly the industry accepting it, but something near the industry that accepts it
16:49:21 <Samu> near the station, that is
17:06:14 <Samu> "industry stations can accept cargoes not destined to the industry"
17:06:44 <Samu> "water industries can accept cargoes with other destinies"?
17:09:34 <Samu> "water industries can accept cargoes for the neighbourhood"?
17:13:16 <Samu> "stations can accept cargoes destined to water industries"?
17:14:50 <Samu> "water industries can supply cargo at stations"?
17:15:28 <Samu> implying that water industries aren't stations is so confusing for me
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17:17:01 <Samu> "stations can supply cargoes originated from water industries"?
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17:26:01 <Samu> how do i use the word nigh in this context?
17:26:52 <Samu> "water industries can accept nigh cargoes" "cargoes for the nigh"
17:27:18 <supermop> should not use nigh in any modern or technical case
17:27:18 <Samu> dear supermop, halp me a bit
17:27:45 <supermop> it is an archaic word used only for extreme effect or mood
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17:28:29 <supermop> eg speaking about a religious apocalypse
17:29:19 <Gustavo6046> let me fix something
17:29:22 <Samu> i need 4 strings and their descriptions
17:29:25 <Gustavo6046> like, double save
17:29:31 <Samu> can u do that for me supermop :p
17:29:54 <supermop> oooh is this a pathfinder thing?
17:30:11 <supermop> samu: maybe after lunch
17:31:06 <supermop> Gustavo6046: it made like a dick
17:31:15 <Gustavo6046> I need to fix something
17:31:23 <Gustavo6046> like a dick? lmao it's a train
17:31:41 <supermop> but the pathfinder then drew a dick
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17:51:25 <Samu> grrr grgrgrfgnaingfap i hate myself
18:10:06 <Wolf01> I think that those settings belong to "infrastructures" and not to "industries", as you are speaking about "stations", also you can drop the "allow" and put it in place of the "on / off" string
18:11:10 <Gustavo6046> Vanilla OpenTTD settings are already grouped very unintuitively, so I think he does not need to worry about that, Wolf01.
18:12:19 <Wolf01> Then just add settings where you want and create more chaos instead of try to fix at least what you are adding now?
18:15:07 <Wolf01> Also I think that 2 of those settings belong to the stations directly and not globally (the non-industry stations), for the industry stations global could be ok as you don't have control over them
18:22:03 <Samu> there is no Infrastructure group
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18:22:42 <Samu> there's a Limitations group, do you mean that?
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18:24:54 <Wolf01> <Samu> there is no Infrastructure group <- add it?
18:26:10 <Samu> in my opinion, they're all related to industries
18:28:11 <Wolf01> Ahahaah Vodafone decided to go back to monthly subscription (they passed from 30€/month to 30€/28 days, so getting 30€/year more), now for sure they won't charge 32.50€/month but round to 33€/month (32.99) so they will get 36€/year more!
18:31:14 <Samu> Water industries can accept cargoes destined for the neighbourhood
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18:52:14 <supermop> samu, it's fine grammar but it's not quite clear to maybe the uninitiated user what exactly it is referring to
18:53:11 <supermop> and like someone said, a casual user might not ever really think about the distinction between an oil rig and its built-in station
18:53:44 <supermop> so need to be careful that you dont suggest that that the oil rig might start 'consuming' other cargo
18:54:36 <Cubey> It's not ungrammatical but I have no idea what it means
18:54:47 <Cubey> Or any of the new options in that screenshot, really
18:55:45 <Cubey> What are "water industries"? Not clear to me if that means oil rigs, water towers in tropic climate, or something else
18:56:28 <Samu> water industries are those built on water, per Alberth
18:57:02 <Cubey> There might be a more clear term for that
18:57:02 <Samu> and if they're built on water, they got a station
18:57:12 <Cubey> But also the behaviors described don't mean anything to me
18:57:24 <Samu> it must imply that it's an industry on water with an attached station, but without actually saying this all
18:57:29 <Cubey> What does it mean for a station to "Accept cargoes destined to nearby industries"
18:57:57 <Cubey> Is the purpose of that setting to prevent players from building a train station with an oil rig in its cachement area?
18:59:19 <Samu> where did you read that "Accept cargoes destined to nearby industries", that is misleading if it's written like that
18:59:32 <Cubey> It seems like the actual functionality of these settings is to control whether water-based industries (or industries that can be approached by ships) use only their built in station, or can also interact with other nearby stations as ground-based industries do
18:59:52 <Cubey> I left out the word water
19:00:17 <Cubey> The phrasing "cargoes destined to" is impenetrable though
19:01:08 <Samu> yes, it is used for controlling, like you said
19:01:16 <Cubey> Why does this have to be broken out into so many options? Why not just a single toggle for whether "water industries" can be serviced from user-built stations
19:01:52 <Cubey> Or two options, one "water industries can accept cargo from user built stations" and another "water industries can supply cargo to user built stations"
19:01:58 <Samu> it is just for customizability
19:02:19 <Cubey> What is the difference between the last two options then?
19:02:57 <Samu> water industries can also supply cargo at stations, means that an oil rig producing oil, can also supply oil to a train station
19:03:42 <Samu> wait a minute, im so confused lol
19:04:08 <Samu> let me copy paste my helptext
19:04:22 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION :Water industries can also supply cargoes at stations: {STRING2} STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION_HELPTEXT :When disabled, stations attached to industries can only provide cargoes from the industries they're linked to
19:04:37 <supermop> what cubey is saying, is why not have like a simple on/off for the patch
19:04:42 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION :Stations can also supply cargoes from water industries: {STRING2} STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION_HELPTEXT :When disabled, industries with attached stations can only provide cargoes to the industries they're linked to
19:05:57 <supermop> "Allow User Stations to Service Industries with integral station"?
19:06:12 <Cubey> Maybe these controls make more sense from a programmatic point of view, in that they reflect more closely how the game works
19:06:24 <Cubey> But there needs to be another layer of abstraction between the program and the user in this case
19:06:48 <Cubey> The use case for this is "I don't want players to be able to build islands with train stations next to oil rigs"
19:07:29 <Cubey> If I wanted that, I would not know what to do given the four options in the screenshot
19:07:42 <Cubey> I guess I would turn them all off
19:07:44 <Samu> but oil rigs can also supply cargo and accept cargo from the neighbourhood
19:07:55 <Cubey> I don't know what "the neighborhood" refers to either
19:08:02 <Cubey> Does that mean the cachement area?
19:08:17 <Cubey> Or catchment area, however it is spelled
19:08:34 <Cubey> You should probably use consistent terminology with the rest of the settings there at least
19:09:13 <Cubey> But more importantly, in what use cases would the user want to enable some of these options but not all
19:09:16 <Samu> the wording of setting 3 and 4 is confusing indeed
19:09:36 <Cubey> I'm not sure they are meaningfully distinct from a gameplay point of view
19:09:54 <supermop> then in the description you can write something like, "Industries with built-in stations, like Oil Rigs can supply and receive cargo from user built nearby stations. Stations at such industries can supply and receive cargo from other nearby industries."
19:10:25 <Samu> setting 3 is for the industry station, if it is allowed to provide cargo from neighbouring sources (catcment area)
19:10:47 <Cubey> So you're saying is that if there is like an oil rig next to a fishing ground, you could load fish at the oil rig's built in station?
19:10:48 <Samu> setting 4 is for your station, let's say, a train station, if it is allowed to provide cargo from the industry
19:10:52 <Cubey> And one of the settings disables that
19:11:09 <supermop> Samu: do you think a user needs all 4 options, or just on/off?
19:11:51 <supermop> personally, i would always use 'off', and it sounds like you would use 'on', is there a need for any other option in between?
19:12:15 <Cubey> I think it's either one choice or two choices
19:12:20 <Cubey> But not four meaningful choices
19:12:25 <supermop> Samu: all i would need would be a method to maintain the current trunk behavior
19:12:40 <Samu> current trunk behaviour is enabling them all
19:12:42 <supermop> like my wording above
19:12:58 <Samu> but ok, i'll see if i can reduce this to 2 settings
19:13:34 <supermop> basically you have two behavior changes; 1) for the industry and 2) for the built in station
19:13:34 <Cubey> If it's two settings, one of those corresponds to some combination of the existing four being in a mixed state
19:13:51 <Cubey> Yeah, I agree with supermop
19:14:09 <Cubey> The useful mixed state is "I want this behavior turned off for user stations but not for the oil rig station"
19:14:53 <supermop> so you just need to decide 1) do other regular stations work with the industry, and 2) does the station work with other regular industies
19:15:19 <Samu> setting 3 is really misleading though, thx for bringing it up
19:15:47 <supermop> with those two choices you get a lot of nuance, i am not sure anyone would turn 1 on and 2 off, or vis-versa
19:15:55 <Cubey> It seems to me like 1&2 and 3&4 should be combined
19:16:01 <supermop> so you might be able to combine it into 1
19:16:44 <Cubey> Oh no wait maybe it's 1&3 and 2&4
19:16:59 <Cubey> I'm not even sure because it's so confusing
19:17:21 <Cubey> Yeah I think you would always want the value of 1==3 and 2==4
19:18:29 <Samu> install the patch, and try this savegame
19:18:39 <Samu> see how acceptance, suppliance changes
19:21:06 <Samu> there's 2 ships, one is oil ship, the other is iron ore ship
19:21:14 <Samu> both ships visit both stations
19:21:46 <Samu> it's the savegame i used to create those screenshots
19:22:26 <supermop> Samu: here is my question, conceptually
19:22:55 <supermop> here we have 3 stations
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19:23:15 <supermop> one for a town, one at the mine, and one by the oil rig
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19:24:01 <supermop> why should the dock near the rig not catch the oil, but the station by the mine does catch the ore from the mine
19:24:31 <supermop> and the dock near the town does catch the passengers from the town
19:25:08 <supermop> why should the dock at the far right behave differently with respect to the oil, than the other two stations do?
19:25:36 <peter1138> Hmm, Saturn V on backorder?
19:25:38 <Samu> it's because the difference is the existance of the neutral station. the idea was to use it
19:26:02 <Samu> but i understand your point
19:26:39 <Samu> it's not really because it's crossing water
19:28:33 <Samu> well, it is, depending on the point of view, so that's why I welcome customization
19:29:25 <Samu> the wording again... "water industry" comes into play
19:30:16 <Samu> what the code is doing is looking for industries with an attached station. it just so happend that the attached station is OIL_RIG, and the industry is on water
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19:35:56 <Samu> if the oil rig on your screenshot had no station
19:36:35 <Samu> the code would treat that oil rig industry as a normal one, that dock would always accept passengers and engineering supplies
19:36:52 <Samu> regardless of your setting
19:39:34 <Samu> if u know of any newgrf with water industries without stations, then yes, the wording "water industry" is wrong, because the way it is put right now, is assuming all water industries to have an attached station
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19:43:00 <supermop> how does the neutral station affect gameplay differently? (it does, but i'm not sure to a degree that warrants a change)
19:44:16 <supermop> if the issue is that a player owned station with better rating would 'steal' oil that would otherwise be available to all players at the neutral station, i am not sure that is a compelling reason
19:44:28 <supermop> as this is what happens at every other industry
19:45:54 <supermop> conversely (i think), a player could serve the oil rig well for years, building up good ratings and high production, and then another player can dock a ship at the rig and take the oil without having done the initial 'work'
19:46:44 <Samu> oh, the oil produced at the oil rig is always available at the oil rig station
19:46:48 <supermop> so if it is a competitive server, neutral stations might actually be worse than 'selfish' land based stations
19:47:23 <Samu> what you disable is the oil being available at a dock
19:47:30 <Samu> it's not disabled at the oil rig
19:47:44 <supermop> because if two players have separate docks near the rig, at least the player with better service gets more oil
19:48:22 <supermop> samu, i know it is available at the rig, but in the game, if the land based dock has higher rating, it gets more oil - is that what you are trying to prevent?>
19:48:58 <supermop> my question is, what is the need to prevent oil from appearing at the dock
19:49:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: building materials are meh
19:49:26 <Samu> it's just so that the player is forced to use the oil rig station instead
19:49:51 <frosch123> slag plant -> trading post is about the same two cargos
19:50:11 <Samu> because uhm... the industry provides a station, it's just because of this
19:50:36 <Samu> use it, don't make your own station if there's a neutral one
19:50:42 <supermop> if i serve the oil rig with a dock or train station, how does that ruin or hurt gameplay to the extent that it must be banned
19:51:13 <supermop> if i have my own station, i can control the rating there with advertisements etc
19:51:22 <supermop> a neutral one i cannot
19:51:56 <supermop> at a neutral one, a competitor can dock a huge boat 1 day before my boat arrives, and take all the oil
19:52:33 <supermop> at a neutral helipad, a competitor can park a helicopter and prevent mine from ever landing
19:53:21 <supermop> what if the other player simply is afk and forgot to restart the helicopter
19:53:46 <Samu> call an admin, i dunno, really didn't think about that
19:53:58 <supermop> what i am saying is, there might be a reason here, but i am not sure it is worth it
19:54:55 <supermop> basically you are creating a division, where all normal cargo has a particular ruleset around it - build your own station, provide the best service, and you get the most cargo.
19:55:56 <supermop> if a competitor wants to take cargo from there, they have to compete for it, by providing a better (or at least almost as good) service
19:55:57 <andythenorth> frosch123: I agree building materials are meh
19:56:14 <andythenorth> if there were town effects...
19:56:25 <supermop> but you are making a distinction at the oil rig, by saying that oil at the oil rig is special case
19:56:51 <supermop> that you cannot use the normal rules of good service = more cargo here
19:57:25 <Samu> i think it's a matter of taste now, you turn 4th setting off if you want the vanilla behaviour
19:57:31 <supermop> that this cargo is only available on a first come, first served basis
19:58:02 <supermop> anyone can take it, and there is nothing you can do to secure a particular share for yourself
19:58:04 <Samu> it rotates between all vehicles, as long as they don't park
19:58:22 <supermop> and all of that is fine - but it is a very deliberate departure
19:58:40 <supermop> what i want to know, is, is there a demand for that?
19:59:14 <Samu> I demanded it so much I created a patch
19:59:23 <supermop> ok then, i want to know why, for you, enforcing that behavior makes the game better
19:59:58 <supermop> because understanding that gameplay angle probably helps inform the patched behavior itself
20:00:52 <Samu> well, first because I hate to see trains going there taking oil instead of using ships. there's btpro servers with a fugly workaround the issue, so yes, i think there's demand other than myself
20:01:02 * andythenorth hasn't read logs
20:01:14 <andythenorth> if the issue is banning neutral stations, then remove them in newgrf
20:01:17 <andythenorth> just don't include the tile
20:02:14 <supermop> andythenorth: opposite of banning neutral stations
20:02:32 <Samu> andythenorth: are u familiar with newgrf industries? does Gfx 24 ring a bell, or 1C?
20:02:34 <supermop> banning servicing of any industry with a station by player built stations
20:03:31 <supermop> Samu: why do you hate to see trains going to the rig? what if the rig is right next to land?
20:04:07 <Samu> well, i still prefer to see ships going there
20:04:15 <supermop> also, how is trains at rigs non-competitive/griefing such that it needs to be banned
20:04:47 <supermop> Samu: most rigs in real life send their oil to shore by pipeline, not ships
20:05:26 <supermop> tankers going back and forth over a short distance arguably looks more weird than some installation on shore receiving the oil
20:06:02 <supermop> why do those servers ban the trains going there?
20:06:39 <supermop> if it is for competitive reasons, it seems that just creates a situation that then needs extra enforcement by admins
20:07:05 <supermop> how is the neutral station better for competition?
20:07:33 <supermop> it doesn't allow one company to develop a better rating for cargo than the others
20:07:54 <Samu> they're on equal footing then
20:08:18 <supermop> how are they on equal footing?
20:08:20 <andythenorth> banning pickup from player-owned stations makes absolutely no sense to me
20:08:23 <andythenorth> so I'll duck out :)
20:08:26 <ST2> in a competitive game, players raising land to make stations/tracks blocks the access to industry to other players - we have disable join distant station parts
20:10:06 <Samu> basically the reason of my patch is fundamentally because the industry has its own station and I wanted players to make use of them
20:11:09 <Samu> but the behaviour can be turned on if you really wish the vanilla behaviour
20:11:34 <Samu> it's a matter of preference
20:11:55 <Samu> i wanted to discourage players from raising land on water and place their big fat train stations right next to oil rigs
20:12:22 <Samu> it's ... ugly, but that's just my preference
20:12:51 <supermop> Samu: then make the oil rigs spawn only far away from land, or better yet, make raising ocean land very expensive
20:13:39 <ST2> that would be give exclusivity of those raises only to rich companies
20:14:35 <supermop> how about the exclusivity to the player who can send a ton of boats to the oil rig that the small player has been trying to increase the rating at
20:14:43 <ST2> Samu: if vanilla behaviour is the default one, I even like the idea of giving server owners that choice :)
20:15:45 <ST2> boats don't jam and only one loads at once (I think per company) - so, I see no point
20:15:50 <Samu> i don't find it fair when one player uses ships, then comes another raising land and building train right next to it
20:16:44 <supermop> ST2: what about if the oil is on land
20:17:08 <Samu> if the oil is on land, the patch has no effect
20:17:19 <ST2> guess the discussion it's about oil rigs, or we'll go to any other industry
20:17:28 <supermop> but that player is still 'blocking' the industry
20:17:35 <ST2> or better, water-bourne industries
20:17:55 <supermop> why do oil rigs get different rules on competition
20:18:39 <ST2> because they spawn on different way that other industries, when mulple per town
20:19:01 <ST2> more a reason to be treated differently
20:19:19 <andythenorth> so are you patching move-cargo-to-station or something?
20:19:30 <supermop> that argument has nothing to do with 'blocking' or competition
20:20:08 <Samu> i'm patching uint MoveGoodsToStation(CargoID type, uint amount, SourceType source_type, SourceID source_id, const StationList *all_stations, bool on_water)
20:20:27 <Samu> bool on_water is my invention :p
20:20:28 <supermop> oil rigs are different because CS thought they would be cute and novel to add a new gimmick to the later game
20:20:55 <andythenorth> you're not just checking for the station tile in the in the industry?
20:21:19 <andythenorth> industry layout has a tile in it
20:21:29 <andythenorth> can't remember the ID but it's special-cased
20:21:36 <supermop> there is basically no compelling reason to send helicopters there other than customers of the game might find it fanciful to see helicopters flying around, and there was no other case in which they have a use
20:22:11 <supermop> andythenorth: the patch seems to work
20:22:23 <supermop> question is not how, but why
20:23:44 <ST2> example: the Fishing grounds - makes more sense to a boat go there that a train load it some tiles away
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20:25:04 <supermop> samu was concerned about the wording of the strings for options to control patch behavior, and my contention was that there were too many options, and that you would need a clear picture of how the patch would be used to better inform what settings to provide
20:26:05 * andythenorth back to Steeltown
20:26:06 <supermop> ST2: if you content that the transport company must go do the fishing themselves, then shouldn't the transport company also send carts down into the mineshafts?
20:26:30 <ST2> some months ago found a weird behaviour when IsOilRig(tile) returned true on bridge heads (endings)
20:26:41 <andythenorth> so further up the Steel chain
20:26:57 <supermop> maybe a dock next to the fishing grounds is where the local fishermen bring their catch ashore
20:26:59 <andythenorth> vehicles does't deliver that
20:27:16 <Samu> supermop seems to want more settings :)
20:27:23 <supermop> and the contract with you to take it by reefer truck into the packing plant
20:27:39 <supermop> 2 at most, preferably 1
20:28:08 <Samu> do the behaviour "x", except for docks or helistations
20:28:41 <Samu> so you're allowed to make dock station but not a train station :)
20:29:05 <supermop> ST2: also we dont have mail trucks stop at every house in town, only enough central locations to cover the town
20:29:39 <supermop> Samu: that would never work - what if my station has both dock and train?
20:30:01 <supermop> what if the train is there but does not collect oil but some other cargo
20:30:09 <ST2> personally I don't like the join distant station parts feature - but, gladly, there's a setting to enable/disable it ^^
20:30:41 <Samu> then i would need to go further deep in the code and make trains unable to load it
20:30:59 <supermop> i think you only need on and off
20:31:31 <Samu> ok, i can do that, 1 setting to rule them all
20:31:40 <supermop> why should one be different than the others?
20:32:34 <andythenorth> 3 kinds of steel :P
20:32:40 * andythenorth looking for ideas
20:32:42 <supermop> Samu: proliferation of options and settings just makes things more confusing
20:32:59 <Cubey> How about one setting to control the behavior of water industries' built-in station and a second to control user built station near water industries
20:33:01 <Samu> i see, will try to reduce from 4 to 2
20:33:43 <supermop> either leave patch turned off, and players enforce their own constraints on their play style, or turn patch on, and enforce exclusive use of the built-in station
20:34:10 <Cubey> But what about controlling whether the built in station also draws cargo from nearby industries?
20:34:46 <supermop> Cubey: if you care about 1, you likely care about the other
20:35:25 <supermop> what i was prodding samu about, to explain his reason for the patch, was to see if there was actually any need at all for that nuance
20:35:47 <andythenorth> what about transfers?
20:35:51 <Cubey> Yeah like you said for the options to make sense, it's the use cases you need to think about
20:35:51 <ST2> only myself would put 27 servers using it :P
20:36:34 <supermop> if samu and ST2 say 'force use of the neutral station' and andy and i say 'allow player to build as they please'
20:36:56 <ST2> for me, the default it's as it's now
20:37:01 <supermop> does anyone say 'force use of the neutral staion for case x, but not for case y'?
20:37:30 <supermop> if no one needs that middle 3rd way, samu only needs 1 setting, not 2 or 4
20:37:39 <Cubey> I think the issue of neutral stations having a catchment area like normal stations is a separate question from whether the user is "forced" to use neutral stations or not
20:37:47 <ST2> there I'm not inside the details ^^
20:37:54 <supermop> saves a lot of string writing
20:38:20 <Cubey> One or two options would both be better than four
20:38:24 <supermop> Cubey: it is a separate issue, but is there a use case for it having a separate setting?
20:38:39 <ST2> but yeah, I'll go with the KISS approach :D
20:38:59 <Cubey> Let's say I've already decided to prevent normal stations from being able to catch oil rigs' oil, so I enable that setting in the patch
20:39:11 <supermop> also yes, like andy said, there is the age old 'transfer hack'
20:39:14 <Cubey> Now I still have to decide whether I want oil rigs' neutral stations to catch fish from nearby fisheries
20:39:48 <Cubey> Personally I just wouldn't touch that option, I see no reason why you'd ever need to change it from the default behavior
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20:40:02 <supermop> i think if you think it looks wrong for a dock on shore to get oil, you probably think it looks wrong for fishing boats to stop at an oil platform
20:40:03 <Cubey> But it seems like Samu wanted this patch to also provide an option to change that behavior
20:40:54 <supermop> Samu: what happens if i want to unload a bunch of iron ore at an oil rig, for another boat to pick up
20:41:14 <Samu> do you mean with cargodist enabled?
20:41:45 <Samu> you can unload there, it stays in the station
20:41:47 <Cubey> That seems to have nothing to do with this patch, which only controls what cargos are supplied and accepted by which stations
20:41:54 <Samu> some other player however, can go pick it up
20:43:06 <supermop> it might be better to remove the dock from oil rigs entirely
20:43:23 <supermop> and let players build their own moorings
20:43:52 <supermop> ie patch in a dock that is built at sea, like abouy
20:44:20 <supermop> that way player has their own control over station rating
20:44:36 <supermop> but would not block others
20:45:37 <Samu> "claim this industry for me"
20:45:50 <Samu> "oh, but not really just for me"
20:49:52 <Samu> first come first served - first company sending a vehicle arriving at a neutral station will claim the station as theirs
20:50:12 <Samu> sounds like a neat idea, for another patch
20:51:09 <Samu> but... seems possible to do
21:00:04 <Samu> looks like i found a possible bug
21:00:41 <Samu> 2 oil rigs with the setting disabled, with a ship loading at one of them, will trigger production on both oil rigs
21:00:57 <Samu> let's see if i can split it appart
21:01:28 <ST2> known, because it has a station so, coverage too
21:01:55 <ST2> not no idea if intended ^^
21:02:19 <Samu> my idea was to only make the ship trigger production on the industry it's on
21:02:42 <Samu> kinda like i did for acceptance
21:03:05 <Samu> if I did for acceptance, i should also do it for production
21:07:41 <Samu> MoveGoodsToStation needs moar editing
21:08:01 <Samu> i need to pass around the IndustryIndex to MoveGoodsToStation
21:08:11 <Samu> hmm wondering how am i doing tat
21:11:20 <Samu> or maybe FindStationsAroundTiles
21:11:39 <Samu> make it not find certain station
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21:40:32 <andythenorth> what could go in an electrical chain?
21:45:46 <andythenorth> that then combines with steel
21:46:14 * andythenorth has been persuaded against chemicals chain :P
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21:50:52 <zerm> Is there a way to get apt-get repositories to automatically update to 1.7.1? I'm new to linux (currently using lubuntu LTS 16.10), not sure if using sudo apt-get remove openttd* was sufficent to uninstall 1.5.3... my goal is to completely erase the game and all components and reinstall to latest version. Also, if I have to use binary, do I have to move the binary to where I want to install it before running commands?
21:52:12 <andythenorth> chemicals chain would give pvc, combined with copper for wire, then steel for machines
21:54:46 <Wolf01> Silicon, a lot of silicon
21:55:51 <Wolf01> And now, /me -> bed, tomorrow I need to get up early to sign the job contract
21:56:57 <andythenorth> wolf01 has left the building :)
21:57:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: PVC isn't yogurt pots, right? o_O
21:59:54 <zerm> i got it, thanks guys!!!
22:02:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: or bakelite?
22:03:08 <andythenorth> bakelite is resins?
22:03:37 <frosch123> it's the first plastic from syntetics
22:04:22 <andythenorth> I want to try two big complex chains
22:04:27 <andythenorth> there's enough room in cargos
22:05:18 <andythenorth> I don't think FIRS justifies another heavy industry economy, so it has to be this one :)
22:05:45 <andythenorth> chain 1, chain 2 -> goods, vehicles, maybe BDMT
22:06:12 <andythenorth> ports are fed by side products from the long chains
22:06:35 <andythenorth> ensp is a problem, it's a terrible pinnacle cargo
22:08:40 <andythenorth> need a primary that produces ensp :P
22:14:22 <supermop> lately i don't even use ensp
22:14:37 <supermop> = too much cargo to use
22:19:54 <andythenorth> interesting point
22:20:11 <andythenorth> ensp can be a helpful design constraint, but it's also a total pain in the arse :)
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22:41:13 <supermop> andythenorth: largely
22:41:20 <supermop> has enough rust color
22:41:49 <supermop> smoke stacks look a bit modern
22:42:05 <supermop> force CC to dark grey before 1940?
22:42:54 <supermop> distillation columns look good bolt-y
22:43:06 <andythenorth> coke oven -> coal tar -> medicine -> port/town?
22:43:51 <andythenorth> coal tar is on the World Health Organisation's list of essential medicines :P
22:43:53 <supermop> haha will you enforce acetaminophen/paracetamol/whatever aussies call it by region?
22:44:09 <andythenorth> got en-us and en-au :P
22:45:44 <supermop> i remeber it being different that uk or us
22:49:35 <supermop> huh. i could have sworn acetaminophen came from coal tar, but wikipedia doesn't mention it
22:49:38 * andythenorth took paracetamol and acetaminophen together for a period of time
22:49:53 <supermop> maybe was thinking of aspirin or something
22:49:57 <andythenorth> it's on the coal tar page
22:50:27 <supermop> paracetamol has nothing about the industrial synthesis
22:51:35 <supermop> even the historical note is not very informative
22:53:59 <supermop> creosote+wood = ensp + bdmt
22:54:14 <supermop> i guess that is just like the lumber yard tho
22:55:25 <supermop> coal tar distillery - > medicine, shampoo, parking lot sealant, railroad ties
22:55:31 <andythenorth> that is the lumber yard :)
22:55:42 <andythenorth> it has a creosote kiln
22:57:01 <supermop> i had always assumed the 'chemicals' were either glue for plywood, or the green stuff they permeate 4x4s with to make deck posts
22:57:12 <andythenorth> could be any of those
22:57:23 <supermop> althought that green stuff is essentially creosote by use
22:57:38 <andythenorth> chemicals industry boggles my brain
22:57:45 <andythenorth> so many processes
22:57:57 <supermop> the stuff that comes from the lumber yard is not brown though - its blond like plywood
22:58:12 <supermop> so is the suff that gets delivered there though
22:58:20 <andythenorth> doesn't do much eh
22:58:35 <andythenorth> ultimate Steeltown must wait...again
22:58:40 <supermop> blond wood + chemicals = blond wood
22:58:51 <andythenorth> *superior* blond wood
22:59:10 <supermop> the chemicals are the brand labels they attach
22:59:10 <andythenorth> discussion of material honesty will have to wait for another day
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continue to next day ⏵
