IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-29
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00:05:37 <supermop_home> black yard is coal dump, industrial tram can take some to the brick works
00:06:56 <Samu> what you guys talkin about
00:07:16 <supermop_home> cement plant to NW, so clay train can take somecoal back to the clay pit, then it can head onward with some clay that way
00:07:49 <supermop_home> Samu how to connect more industries to my network in a way that doesn't look too ugly
00:10:14 <supermop_home> FLHerne the only problem with your diagram is I hate having the loading station on the other side of the line from the industry
00:11:00 <supermop_home> this line only sees one passenger train ever 36 days or so, so I can cross the mainline at freight speed somewhere
00:17:29 <FLHerne> supermop_home: You can use those ISR conveyor-tunnel-entrances to make it look good
00:17:38 <FLHerne> (or just add a crossing)
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00:40:24 <supermop_home> this stupi sheep farm/oil refinery is really in the way of a nice potential junction
00:40:25 <Samu> i grabbed some savegame of your giant 2k map server
00:40:34 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7679
00:40:48 <Samu> loaded in my patched openttd, and screwed all ships
00:40:49 <ST2> Samu: you could asked for it ^^
00:41:49 <ST2> well, what you do on SP... no one will complain xD
00:42:26 <Samu> having it as settings was a really good idea
00:42:39 <Samu> supermop_home: don't you wanna test?
00:43:22 <supermop_home> I am technically testing my RVs right now
00:43:43 <supermop_home> just distracted my trying to make some nice train junctions
00:43:48 <supermop_home> but ill take a look
00:44:05 <supermop_home> I don't know how to compile
00:44:09 <ST2> Samu: waterborne cargos are quite tricky - had you tested it with FIRS, for example
00:44:34 <Samu> uhm... well, part of firs, yes, i'm not familiar at all with it
00:45:25 <Samu> there were waterborne industries in it that don't have stations
00:45:42 <supermop_home> I don't think that is true
00:45:52 <Samu> that made me rethink how I was checking those stations
00:46:08 <supermop_home> fishing grounds and dredging site both have station
00:46:14 <Samu> v2 is supposedly handling it better
00:46:49 <Samu> those industries / stations
00:47:23 <Samu> it seems that 2 consecutive IndustryGfx == 24
00:47:58 <Samu> dictacte whether the industry will attach a station
00:50:56 <Samu> when the station is built, the IndustryGfx information is lost
00:52:14 <Samu> i'm not 100% sure my new method is fool-proof, but should be okay
00:53:42 <Samu> so, plz throw newgrfs at it, see if it fails or misbehaves, supermop_home, once you have tijme
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01:13:48 <Samu> i'm surprised it's related to AIs
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01:51:08 <Samu> crap, i found a bug... cargodist is ruining it
01:51:50 <Speedy> sleep over and try again
01:56:04 <Samu> cargodist is so confusing i dont even know if it's bugged
01:58:12 <Samu> seems to be how cargodist works :o
01:59:18 <Samu> I am, on the fly, changing cargo acceptance of a station. Cargodist seems to cope with it
02:01:36 <Samu> damn, who's a cargodist expert here? i'm confused... sucks when I don't know how things work
02:10:23 <Samu> Attachment: acceptance and suppliance behaviours of waterborne cargo v2 r27929.patch [19.3 KiB] Not downloaded yet
02:11:01 <supermop_home> more people might try a binary
02:11:25 <Samu> i can only do windows exes
02:12:59 <Samu> ok, i'll make an .exe if u promise u download it lol
02:21:41 <Samu> are u on windows, supermop_home, i can make a x64.exe, but if you're on linux, ubuntus or crap like that, I can't do anything
02:23:12 <ST2> Samu: Debian or Ubuntu (debian based) are a bit away from Windows - and by that I mean Windows still have to work hard to get there
02:23:47 <ST2> and I say that as a user of the three
02:25:31 <Samu> supermop_home: are u home?
02:25:48 <Samu> i gotta go sleep real soon
02:27:37 <supermop_home> I am about to go watch stranger things with my wife tho
02:27:49 <Samu> oki, let me create this bin package thingg
02:27:49 <ST2> supermop_home: which windows?
02:27:55 <supermop_home> if you post a binary I'll give it a shot later
02:28:08 <ST2> or you got too in the 1709 update doom?
02:29:10 <supermop_home> idk, I don't have that latest fall update yet though
02:30:10 <supermop_home> ok where to take all these building materials
02:33:52 <ST2> but I guess Samu didn't get the update too
02:34:05 <ST2> or he would be complaining about it also xD
02:36:49 <ST2> note: the previous screenshot it's from this laptop; my home computer has same W10 update
02:37:04 <ST2> lucky me, my work computer is W7 \o/
02:38:14 <Samu> got the bin ready, uploading it to forum, brb
02:39:23 <ST2> actually I forced the updates on my W10 machines - after I saw the panning issue complaints
02:39:42 <ST2> as you know, I want to have happy players ^^
02:41:21 <Samu> it's an entire folder with subfolders, there are added strings, so they need to work together
02:42:00 <ST2> Samu: what's the goal with those changes?
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02:42:36 <Samu> the goal is to ruin players who transport oil from oil rigs with trains
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02:43:04 <Samu> and have it included in 1.8.0 or so I hope
02:43:12 <ST2> Samu: and why you would want that?
02:43:52 <Samu> because devs didn't do anything about it
02:43:56 <ST2> as you said, you played on BTPro K1 server
02:44:15 <ST2> had you seen any player taking oil from rigs with trains?
02:44:20 <Samu> yeah, your implementation is fugly
02:44:59 <ST2> but, due the code limitations to keep it compatible... what was possible
02:45:26 <Samu> I know what you mean, make it network compatible with 1.7.1
02:45:40 <Samu> must have been a tough task
02:46:00 <ST2> well, what we changed... it's compatible
02:46:16 <ST2> guess you joined using a 1.7.1 client
02:47:05 <ST2> it's only a function that checks distances between stations and industries
02:47:37 <ST2> made it as a setting, to work among all our servers and spreading allowed
02:48:23 <ST2> it's only a function that checks distances between stations and industries
02:48:46 <ST2> ofc, the code that it uses, depends of more functions for it
02:49:40 <ST2> it's similar functions used for town protection (like in CB's)
02:50:12 <ST2> but that's server specific's
02:50:59 <ST2> I see no point on ruin people getting oil from rigs with trains - unless you come with an awesome idea and code
02:51:34 <Samu> there's some degree of customizability now
02:52:10 <Samu> each behaviour can be enabled or disabled, on the fly
02:54:30 <Samu> "accept non-industry cargo at industry station", "accept industry cargo at non-industry station", "supply non-industry cargo at industry station" and "supply industry cargo at non-industry station".
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08:05:54 <andythenorth> Alberth: you post to forums very early? o_O
08:11:51 <Alberth> but in general, yep, get up at around 6
08:12:38 <V453000> kids give no fucks about clock :P
08:13:01 <Alberth> me neither, but the world around me does
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08:42:09 * andythenorth was awake at 4am
08:45:35 <Alberth> it's not that important :)
08:47:14 <andythenorth> it felt important at the time :x
08:47:31 <andythenorth> so is it Steeltown, or Motor City?
08:47:37 * andythenorth might have made a mis-step
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08:49:34 <andythenorth> maybe vehicles aren't the ultimate end cargo
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10:24:52 <andythenorth> @summon frosch123
10:24:52 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk
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11:17:53 <andythenorth> how much does that printing cost? :o
11:18:15 <Wolf01> I think "a lot" could be a good answer
11:20:33 <Wolf01> Also I think I have the 850 somewhere
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12:25:51 <andythenorth> is it steeltown or motor town?
12:26:04 <andythenorth> to put it another way, 50% of the detailed RL steel chain is present
12:26:15 <andythenorth> and 50% is missing, in favour of tyres and windscreens
12:26:55 <frosch123> add ships and tools
12:27:03 <frosch123> possibly a bit of wood
12:27:19 <andythenorth> I am experimenting with kicking vehicles chain out
12:27:29 <andythenorth> chemicals + cars economy
12:28:53 <andythenorth> Steeltown currently stops in the middle of the chart at 'steel'
12:28:58 <andythenorth> then it becomes BMW and Ford
12:32:06 <andythenorth> need to decide what final output cargos are interesting
12:32:14 <andythenorth> then work back to steel
12:37:37 <frosch123> vehicles are an interesting cargo
12:37:50 <andythenorth> cars + chemicals
12:37:57 <frosch123> judging from the current state you should probably delete cement and builders yard
12:38:11 <andythenorth> it makes an ugly line on the graph eh
12:38:26 <frosch123> that's not the reasoning :)
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12:38:38 <frosch123> but cement adds nothing, it only goes to black holes
12:38:46 <andythenorth> goes to bulk terminal
12:40:16 <frosch123> i think readding glass and also adding wood might work
12:40:30 <frosch123> you can make a lot of things from steel+glass+wood
12:41:02 <frosch123> cars, ships, houses
12:41:33 <frosch123> so, building materials may be a thing
12:43:17 <frosch123> other games have stuff like motors
12:43:24 <frosch123> but they are essentially made of steel only
12:43:33 <frosch123> so does not really add anything
12:44:01 <V453000> electric engines with electronic circuits, yo
12:45:24 <andythenorth> motors would be copper + steel
12:45:37 <andythenorth> might work out what goes in a chemicals + cars economy
12:45:49 <andythenorth> very few raw materials, mostly secondary
12:45:50 <frosch123> ok, maybe go for electric cars then :)
12:45:58 <frosch123> also allows battery cargo
12:46:13 <frosch123> battery from various fancy minerals
12:46:33 <andythenorth> the goal is to get those industries co-located, then cram in lots of trains
12:46:41 <andythenorth> then raise production to make it really hard
12:47:28 <andythenorth> maybe a couple more clusters like that
12:47:58 <andythenorth> it's really not a town-focussed economy :P
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12:54:36 <andythenorth> also maybe electrical machines
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13:49:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: shipyard...steeltown, or chemicals + cars?
13:49:36 * andythenorth likes the idea that it might look good
13:51:53 <frosch123> surface mining and bucket excavators?
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13:53:25 <frosch123> problem is that all the fancy products like ships and windturbines translate into black holes in ottd
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14:10:41 <andythenorth> black holes aren't wrong
14:25:05 <frosch123> so, also adding big-ass refineries?
14:25:14 <frosch123> oil rig construction yards?
14:25:30 <andythenorth> I think it's a different economy
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14:26:01 <andythenorth> offshore construction yards?
14:30:07 <andythenorth> what can I deliver oil rigs to?
14:30:44 <andythenorth> what cargo class would that be?
14:30:59 <frosch123> off-shore construction hubs
14:33:02 <frosch123> anyway, your :27 picture could be an industry
14:33:17 <frosch123> simliar looks as oirlgi
14:33:21 <frosch123> but builds wind turbines
14:33:37 <frosch123> for gameplay purpose it does not move though
14:37:30 <andythenorth> deliver wind turbines to it :P
14:37:40 <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder about splitting ENSP
14:37:48 <andythenorth> e.g. special supplies for oil industry
14:38:12 <frosch123> might make sense in this economy
14:38:57 <andythenorth> not sure how it would work
14:39:21 <frosch123> i wouldn't add a "wind turbine cargo"
14:39:56 <frosch123> rather deliver "pipe" and "electric machinery" to an off-shore windmill construction yard
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14:42:30 <frosch123> add in the other cargos and industries first :p
14:42:40 <frosch123> "supplies" may be a good export cargo
14:42:41 * andythenorth plans cars + chemicals
14:43:12 <andythenorth> only way I've found to make supples exportable is to minimse need of it for mines etc
14:48:04 <frosch123> hmm, maybe to f-infected. but does it need a "lubricant" cargo?
14:48:15 <frosch123> steel+oil->machinery
14:48:22 <frosch123> machinery+copper -> electric machinery
14:50:25 <Alberth> usually it's machinery + electric motor :)
14:51:18 <frosch123> so, steel+copper+oil -> electric machinery?
14:52:09 <frosch123> copper+paper+oil -> transformators?
14:52:25 <Alberth> sounds more realistic :)
14:52:26 <frosch123> i guess "crude oil" does not quite cut it
14:52:35 <frosch123> so rafinery needs to produce more
14:52:50 <frosch123> not just fuel, but fine oil or something
14:53:20 <Alberth> oil is sort-of collection name
14:54:14 <Alberth> likely the industry itself always makes explicit what oil is intended
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14:55:23 <frosch123> yeah, but you cannot ship directly from oil rig to machine shop :)
14:55:36 <frosch123> you need at least a refinery or other chemical plant
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14:56:43 <frosch123> but well, one could as well argue about plastics in machinery
14:57:11 <frosch123> but plastics is less fun than fine oil
14:57:45 <frosch123> plastics is too yoghurt-cuppish
14:57:54 <frosch123> not heavy-industrish
14:58:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: don't add yoghurt
14:59:22 <Alberth> plastic could work if you build an industry set to produce our household items
15:09:21 <Alberth> that would be silicon valley, or rather, yoghurt valley
15:13:10 <andythenorth> yoghurt is for the dairy economy
15:13:21 <andythenorth> cheese, yoghurt, butter, milk, cream
15:15:59 <andythenorth> can't find a custard tanker
15:18:07 <frosch123> that's a good thing, otherwise i would worry about the exitence of mustard tankers
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16:10:09 <Samu> who's a cargodist expert?
16:14:29 <Samu> i need some cargoflow, cargodist expert
16:16:10 <Samu> i still get myself confused about how cargodist works
16:18:20 <Alberth> changing exclusive rights seems weird
16:20:04 <Alberth> I don't know the purpose of the patch, but if an oil rig is under town influence, it should obey restrictions of the town, wouldn't it?
16:21:09 <Samu> if a company buys exclusive transport rights, only this company gets cargo on their stations
16:21:20 <Alberth> also, doesn't your system break with "distant join stations" ?
16:21:24 <Samu> but oil rigs are OWNER_NONE
16:21:53 <Samu> if i get ships in there, and i got exclusive transport rights, i can't even get oil from it
16:22:52 <Samu> distatnt join stations is station spreading, right?
16:23:26 <Alberth> hmm, that may be why original game had big restrictions on distance of oil rigs, to avoid owner problems
16:23:57 <Alberth> I build lands just next to the oilrig, and a station, that I connect with the oilrig station
16:25:12 <Samu> it should make no difference on distant join stations, because it's the industry that looks for which stations to supply oil
16:25:59 <Samu> if it detects an attached station, it will not supply oil on the other
16:27:12 <Samu> if you mean 2 oil sources, one from oil field, other from oil wells, the oil field will search which stations to supply oil, separately from the oil wells
16:27:47 <Samu> or do you mean something else?
16:36:55 <Samu> you can't join your station with an oil rig station, i just tried, it only lets you create a new station
16:38:16 <Alberth> so that's blocked already
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16:40:22 <Samu> do you mean spreading all the way into land, and then demolishing the parts in-between?
16:44:01 <Samu> can you post a screenshot of what u mean?
16:47:26 <Alberth> distant join is when you build a station near another station (but not in contact with it), while holding CTRL. Then you get to select which already existing station it is.
16:47:51 <Alberth> that works for normal land stations, no idea if it works for oil rigs
16:48:05 <Alberth> maybe there is a special case for them
16:48:49 <Samu> they can't be distant joined
16:49:15 <Alberth> hmm, not the same owner, I guess
16:49:29 <Samu> their owner is OWNER_NONE
16:51:08 <Samu> but you can distant join your own stations
16:52:12 <Samu> build one where catchment area picks the oil rig, then distant join it with another
16:53:14 <Alberth> oh, too complicated, I just build land right next to the oil rig if I bother getting oil from them
16:53:56 <Samu> it's working as I intended
16:55:12 <Samu> enabled vs disabled behaviour
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17:14:59 <V453000> andythenorth: funny story
17:15:06 <V453000> I had a cool 3D model in blender
17:15:17 <V453000> realized how retarded and wrong it is to model in realistic scales for openttd
17:19:32 <V453000> serious chibification incoming
17:24:34 <frosch123> length may be fine, but it's not tall and wide enough
17:26:30 <Wolf01> Also that's a Challenger, not a Big Boy :P
17:27:32 <Wolf01> It misses many pixel then
17:28:23 <V453000> but this is the "realistic" proportion of width and height
17:28:26 <V453000> so need to chibbialize
17:28:36 <V453000> yes Wolf01, that already got chibbialized
17:28:48 <V453000> wheel cut off :) it's not meant to be a perfect representation of big boy
17:31:37 <Wolf01> A triplex.. wait, sbiii mean something fictional
17:31:54 <Wolf01> That site has too many things
17:36:37 <V453000> that's basically the same
17:37:15 <Wolf01> Why the fuck is the swiss classification so difficult to understand?
17:48:13 <Wolf01> Also the Garrett is nice
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18:24:58 <frosch123> i still have andy's windmill construction ship opened
18:25:15 <frosch123> never thought they actually ground the ship like a crane
18:25:52 <Gustavo6046> mouse wheel -> adjust cost
18:26:09 <Gustavo6046> draw mode: Obstacles adds obstacles, Weight Copy copies weight between tiles
18:27:07 <supermop_home> andythenorth do you have feedback on verbose names? frosch123gave me some suggestions too
18:30:33 <andythenorth> supermop_home: what feedback do you need?
18:36:53 <andythenorth> what to call a chemicals + cars economy?
18:37:17 <andythenorth> kind of like ruhr valley or teeside UK
18:37:42 <frosch123> or "heavy metal" to make it more fancy
18:38:21 <andythenorth> hmm, where is ruhr valley?
18:38:51 <frosch123> it's at the border to france
18:38:55 <frosch123> if you really wanted to know
18:39:06 <frosch123> it's where all the big close cities are
18:39:24 <frosch123> anyway, maybe you can also find a fancy industialisation-related name
18:39:26 <andythenorth> so where's the chemical industry?
18:39:33 <andythenorth> seemed to be a lot around Berlin when I went
18:41:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: bayer
18:43:32 <andythenorth> I could call it 'heroin'
18:43:38 <andythenorth> to go with the other dodgy names
18:44:12 <frosch123> the middle-german-chemical-triangle is nowhere related to ruhr area though
18:44:40 <andythenorth> UK steel regions are not same as chemical / car regions
18:45:22 <frosch123> cars are not close to steel in uk?
18:45:40 <frosch123> well, i guess not all here either
18:45:40 <andythenorth> although UK distances are short
18:46:26 <frosch123> vw was specifically choosen near steel mills
18:47:39 <andythenorth> it might be there are two economies
18:53:14 <frosch123> call it proletarism
18:54:45 <andythenorth> white_heat_of_technology
18:55:10 <frosch123> hmm, i imagine the economy more like 1880
18:55:43 <frosch123> how about "victoria" :p
18:56:17 <andythenorth> I've called it BRINE for now
18:56:29 <andythenorth> salt is a little known source of some huge fraction of world's chemicals
18:57:40 <Samu> what was the newgrf which was limited industry production capacity?
18:58:45 <ST2> I think ECS limits production
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18:59:21 <Samu> ECS, ok, let me take a look
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18:59:57 <Samu> cus there are some code i don't quite understand, regarding industry acceptance cargo
19:01:13 <Samu> woah, there's so many ECS grfs, which one is it
19:08:24 <Samu> i remember i was playing one of your servers and an industry suddenly stopped accepting grain/livestock
19:09:40 <ST2> note: only works on temperate climate
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19:11:10 <Samu> thx, that was it. let me explore this thing
19:13:14 <andythenorth> chemicals is a rabbit hole :D
19:17:22 <supermop_home> all these short turns at stations look weird with steam engines
19:17:33 <supermop_home> i guess I need to add head shunts
19:41:09 <supermop_home> andythenorth now you have me reading about production of pvc
19:43:32 <andythenorth> (styrene in pellets)
19:43:45 <supermop_home> wouldn't it all just be tanks and covered hoppers?
19:43:54 <andythenorth> yes BUT DIFFERENT COLOURS :)
19:44:00 <andythenorth> that's a limiting factor
19:44:10 <andythenorth> trying to work out if this is legit or not
19:44:27 <andythenorth> or do I just rename steeltown, and add in more chemicals
19:44:40 <andythenorth> the steeltown economy graph was really really horrible :P
19:45:18 <supermop_home> steeltown has a 'feel'
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19:45:48 <supermop_home> I feel like thats some people can readily emotionally associate with
19:45:55 <supermop_home> espescially wrt trains
19:46:43 <supermop_home> chemical town or whatever might have a feel for some, but its different than the Sheffield or Bethlehem one
19:47:06 <andythenorth> these are legit comments
19:47:12 <supermop_home> poor plastics plant getting no love there
19:47:28 <andythenorth> lacks chlorine :P
19:47:31 <supermop_home> i mean, you have to think about how 'train-y' something feels
19:47:57 <supermop_home> to americans and brits, maybe japanese of certain area, train means steel
19:48:25 <supermop_home> rolls and rolls, coal, ore, billowing smoke
19:48:46 <supermop_home> big rust colored monsters of plants looming over towns
19:49:31 <supermop_home> chemical town is more like grey boxy buildings with miles and miles of silver pipes everywhere
19:49:49 <andythenorth> now that I try sketching it out I find I need 4 chemical plants :P
19:49:50 <supermop_home> feels like europe, post war
19:49:52 <andythenorth> all will look about same
19:50:02 <supermop_home> steel town feels very pre-war
19:50:38 <andythenorth> is it steeltown, or just bonkers heavy industry?
19:50:52 <supermop_home> one and the same
19:50:56 <andythenorth> also it has a supplies problem :P
19:51:16 <supermop_home> but needs that beautiful hulking bleakness (ST does)
19:51:41 <andythenorth> supplies can't be both the pinnacle cago and in high-demand as an input
19:51:50 <supermop_home> FIRS art already does a good job of both, but its incongruous to see them together
19:52:09 <supermop_home> eg fertilizer plant
19:52:22 <supermop_home> next to blast furnace
19:52:48 <supermop_home> one looks clean and modern, the other looks like something from the dark ages
19:53:15 <supermop_home> I guess you could drawn modern steel mills and old looking chemical plants
19:54:08 <supermop_home> but I like the idea of styles/climates - rust climate, pipes climate, farm climate
19:55:33 <andythenorth> is steeltown rust belt?
19:57:04 <andythenorth> chemicals economy seriously unconvincing
19:57:19 <andythenorth> Steeltown doesn't work, the cargo graph is ugly
19:58:01 <supermop_home> I still think there is value in the goal being cars -> towns
19:58:32 <supermop_home> currently I am playing an extreme game
19:58:42 <frosch123> i still like adding electrical motors and transformers as visual cargo
19:58:49 <supermop_home> and have yet to take a single supply anywhere
19:58:51 <frosch123> not sure where to deliver them to though :)
19:59:00 <supermop_home> frosch123: power plant!
20:00:08 *** Guest7757 is now known as Prof_Frink
20:00:12 <supermop_home> power plants start as non functional and have to deliver the part to them
20:00:40 <supermop_home> after which they will work for a few decades before they need more
20:00:41 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7761
20:01:02 <frosch123> if you send them to ports, it's just energy equipment
20:01:17 <supermop_home> cities should need them
20:01:23 <frosch123> heavy goods go to port, not to towen
20:01:25 <supermop_home> for substations and large buildings
20:01:34 <andythenorth> space launch site
20:01:37 <supermop_home> 'industrial machinery'
20:02:07 <frosch123> that's too close to ensp
20:02:20 <supermop_home> sell them to ports to build new industries in far off lands?
20:02:23 <andythenorth> I can probably get salt out of the soda ash mine
20:02:32 <andythenorth> salt -> bulk terminal, chemicals plant
20:02:45 <supermop_home> andythenorth don't they just dissolve and pump it out now
20:02:54 <supermop_home> same as potash?
20:02:55 <andythenorth> find a way to ditch the liquids terminal
20:03:09 <andythenorth> maybe give up Pipe as a cargo :(
20:03:24 <supermop_home> oh potash is a salt
20:03:55 <frosch123> andythenorth: remove plastics
20:04:00 <frosch123> plastics are yoghurt
20:04:23 <andythenorth> need em for vehicles :)
20:04:29 <andythenorth> if the vehicles chain goes back in
20:04:40 <frosch123> vehicles which use plastic do not use steel
20:04:41 <andythenorth> plastics was a boring cargo in PBCI though
20:05:00 <frosch123> imho go for pre 1910 economy
20:05:06 <frosch123> vehicles are made from wood and steel
20:05:23 <frosch123> rubber is the only thing remotely close to chemicals
20:05:53 <frosch123> however, in 1900 you already have all the fancy heavy machinery
20:09:23 <andythenorth> although I was right just there today in a blue Transit
20:09:24 <supermop_home> old industry 'ashery'?
20:10:30 <andythenorth> and a timber yard
20:10:40 <frosch123> what is that bridge for?
20:10:44 <andythenorth> transporter bridge
20:11:18 <supermop_home> need an early industry to cut down all the trees
20:11:55 <andythenorth> there are no blast furnaces there, but all the tertiary industries
20:12:12 <andythenorth> metal export, tinplate, scrap metal, etc
20:12:21 <andythenorth> also machinery, timber
20:12:28 <andythenorth> and my original Apple iMac was made there :P
20:14:07 <Eddi|zuHause> technically, "tertiary" doesn't mean "the third in the chain", but things that don't really "produce" anything, like services, consumer sales, programming, ...
20:14:32 <andythenorth> I know, I just abuse it :|
20:14:59 <andythenorth> in the sense of 'tertiary education'
20:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a "Ferropolis" near here
20:15:53 <andythenorth> what if the Iron Ore was imported, not mined? o_O
20:16:05 <andythenorth> reducing the demand for ENSP would be interesting
20:16:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: 1910 would allow removal of the scrap -> electric arc furnace -> steel chain :P
20:17:01 <V453000> :D I put the locomotive on a screenshot and left it 2 times smaller accidentally
20:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't actually have anything to do with iron, but it's a disused open coal mine, and the huge excavators are preserved there and they make festivals in the location
20:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 360° images look weirdly distorted
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20:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> just think about how world maps are actually similarly distorted, just you don't notice it because you're not used to how it actually looks
20:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: the lake is where the actual mining used to take place
20:23:06 <Eddi|zuHause> (it wasn't a lake back then)
20:25:52 * andythenorth tries to fix Steeltown then
20:25:59 <andythenorth> no chemicals economy
20:26:51 <andythenorth> cement / building materials /s
20:27:44 <V453000> /tension intensifies as realistic scale is going down the shitter
20:27:49 <V453000> unexpected turn of events eh
20:28:37 <andythenorth> word goes out in whispered tones: V453000 has shunned realism
20:29:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: the trick with ENSP and FMSP in the charts, is it valid for BDMT? o_O
20:37:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: originally the arrows for supplies were excluded because they went everywhere
20:37:42 <frosch123> not necessarily because they did circles
20:38:43 <andythenorth> treating building materials and packaging like supplies cleans up multiple charts
20:38:51 <andythenorth> but leaves Builders Yard with no arrows :P
20:39:10 <frosch123> keep the arrows, but add the no-constraint
20:39:14 <frosch123> no arrows is useless
20:40:24 * andythenorth delves into graphviz then
20:47:05 <andythenorth> so where are the edges? :P
20:48:55 <frosch123> they are the lines with ->
20:49:47 <andythenorth> don't remove all constraints :)
20:54:51 <andythenorth> what does constraint do?
20:55:04 <andythenorth> seems to force industries further right when true
20:55:26 <andythenorth> like an x axis forced hierarchy
20:56:57 <frosch123> "->" orders stuff from left to right
20:57:11 <frosch123> removing the constraint for an edge, removes that effect for the edge
20:58:49 <frosch123> or in other words: 1. align and draw everything with constraints, 2. add the remaining stuff somehow
20:59:15 <andythenorth> can't decide if it's better or not :)
20:59:50 <frosch123> add copper stuff :)
20:59:54 <frosch123> don't add aluminium
21:00:16 <andythenorth> going to add copper
21:01:09 *** Guest7761 is now known as Prof_Frink
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21:01:52 <andythenorth> removing the constraints is...not helpful :)
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21:08:24 <Samu> I'm investigating FindIndustryToDeliver function, if it needs editing
21:10:27 <Samu> when a vehicle is dumping cargo in a station, it accesses a list of industries near the station
21:10:58 <Samu> only one industry will accept that cargo, in the case of 2 or more of the same kind that accept it
21:14:02 <Samu> i'm under the impression I got to make a few changes here, still unsure if it's really needed, it's a case study
21:14:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: can you recall if you tried different spline options?
21:15:23 <Samu> one thing is the station accepting the cargo, another is the industry itself accepting the cargo
21:15:57 <Samu> even if a station accepts the cargo, I still need to direct it to the correct industry, I think I'm not doing this at the moment
21:16:24 <Samu> this is regarding my patch
21:17:48 <frosch123> i tried straight lines; while it looked less chaotic it was also less readable
21:18:31 <frosch123> if there are other options, i never tried them
21:19:41 <andythenorth> polylines works for me, it avoids converging tangents in the bezier curves
21:20:00 <andythenorth> but it looks more like a crazy spider :P
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21:52:09 <V453000> is what I needed to know
21:54:18 <V453000> you mean so it could bend?
21:54:29 <V453000> well it's already stretching in lengths so yeah might as well be rubber :P
21:54:46 <Wolf01> 4-12-4 could not be articulated :P
21:54:51 <frosch123> 4-12-4 is not a multiple of 16
21:56:09 <V453000> Wolf01: can just slice it in half :P game doesn't ask
21:56:18 <V453000> frosch123: iz wheel countz
21:56:43 <Wolf01> Wtf do you calculate 4-12-4?
21:58:09 <Wolf01> 2K2 in german notation :P
21:58:41 <Wolf01> Which I think it stops at E or F XD
21:59:06 <Samu> i need a newgrf with 2 different industries, one on water, one on land, that accept the same cargo type. FIRS?
22:00:12 <ST2> FIRS 3 - testers needed ^^
22:00:50 <Samu> i got FIRS industry replacement set 2.1.5
22:00:59 <Samu> is this the wrong version?
22:02:09 *** Guest7766 is now known as Prof_Frink
22:02:30 <frosch123> (andy is probably not the guy who would go for pi versioning)
22:02:41 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7769
22:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> should do tau...
22:06:42 <Samu> Dedging Site and Clay Pit accept Engineering supplies, nice, one on land, one on water
22:06:58 <Samu> now what produces engineering supplies?
22:08:08 <LordAro> frosch123: andy is not knuth?
22:08:09 <V453000> that's just fucked up number masturbation
22:08:12 <LordAro> i would not have guessed
22:09:15 <frosch123> LordAro: how can you be sure about that?
22:09:47 <LordAro> i have never seen them in the same room at the same time
22:11:57 <Samu> what does enhanced production, gung-ho production mean?
22:13:48 <andythenorth> orphaned copper (needs to go to factory for electrical machines)
22:13:56 <andythenorth> ports have not enough inputs
22:15:49 <Samu> u talking to me andythenorth ?
22:16:06 <supermop_home> this dairy farm has 6 refrigerated road traind serving it, and is at normal production, and I still can't carry away all the milk
22:19:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: export plain steel?
22:20:11 <Dakkus> Hi there, good lovely nice people-things! Any idea why my horse carts are travelling at 2 km/h? Using the reddit-patched version of OpenTTD, but before the same patch has worked just fine. I'm guessing it's rather some NewGRF, but I have no idea which one it could be. Any guesses?
22:20:29 <Dakkus> And the horse cart is from the eGRVT, or whatever it's called :)
22:22:16 <Dakkus> In a downhill my horses accelerate to 20 km/h, but on flat it's only 2 km/h.
22:22:23 <Dakkus> I find this very very sad :/
22:22:36 <supermop_home> sounds like they don't have enough power
22:22:56 <supermop_home> is realistic acceleration for Road Vehicles turned on?
22:23:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: pipe->builders yard, fmsp -> trading post
22:24:43 <supermop_home> I vaguely remember that the horses don' work well with it
22:24:55 <frosch123> andythenorth: copper+steel->workshop->ensp
22:25:11 <supermop_home> because the game physics were never really designed to work with such low-powered vehicles
22:25:43 <andythenorth> frosch123: considering deleting Pipe
22:25:54 <supermop_home> another posibility is the freight weight multiplier
22:25:56 <andythenorth> kind of loses some cargo graphics
22:26:22 <supermop_home> nice my laziness in not yet drawing pipe cargo pays off!
22:26:24 <Dakkus> supermop_home: Even with passenger transport? Ok, will try lowering that back to 1.
22:26:38 * andythenorth considers cargo subtypes :|
22:26:41 <supermop_home> i think even passengers have some weight
22:26:54 <supermop_home> but its probably the realistic acceleration
22:27:17 <Dakkus> Nope, weight multiplier at 1 and it's still stuck.
22:27:37 <Samu> thx FIRS, i detected a bug
22:27:38 <supermop_home> try setting rv acceleration to original
22:28:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: remove the farm, make trading post output food instead of ensp, deliver fmsp to trading post
22:28:26 <frosch123> then trading post represents all external farm, taking fmsp, delivering food and rubber
22:28:36 <supermop_home> Midwestern economy without farms is weird tho
22:28:54 <andythenorth> is probably fine
22:29:12 <Dakkus> supermop_home: That did help, thanks. A bit sad, but with rv that causes less trouble than with trains.
22:29:18 <andythenorth> I considered an aluminium recycling chain based on scrap
22:29:22 <Dakkus> Thanks, let's see how 1858 will feel this time :)
22:29:24 <andythenorth> but it seems too modern
22:29:34 <frosch123> yeah, aluminium does not fit
22:29:35 <supermop_home> i will say - I dislike temperate basic because there are no fields
22:29:47 <supermop_home> map looks off with just green trees
22:30:02 <andythenorth> no fields at dairy farm? :o
22:30:10 * andythenorth needs field-objects
22:30:22 <supermop_home> if you can patch in custom field sprites
22:30:45 <supermop_home> for cow and sheep pastures
22:36:43 <andythenorth> frosch123: I deleted pipe :P
22:38:38 <andythenorth> how many industry types should consume steel?
22:40:34 <andythenorth> there is plenty of room for more cargos
22:40:44 * andythenorth considering electrical machines
22:41:22 <frosch123> steel + copper -> ??? -> ensp + some export good
22:41:27 <supermop_home> hmm, station with short-turn terminating services getting crowded
22:41:47 <andythenorth> currently there is a problem that ENSP is only available by linking the whole chain
22:42:07 <andythenorth> I've tried play-testing that in 2 different games for 2 full games, it's bad
22:42:25 <frosch123> port -> copper -> ??? -> ensp with port-feedback loop is pretty early game
22:42:25 <andythenorth> games / variants /s :P
22:42:41 <andythenorth> if I allow those feedback loops, then yes, its better
22:43:25 <supermop_home> can either build a third 'bay' track, or small yard/shunt just past the station, so terminating train arrives at up platform, runs on empty to the yard, then returns some scheduled time later at the down platform
22:43:31 <andythenorth> sand > foundry also gets ENSP
22:44:20 <andythenorth> soda ash mine could export salt to bulk terminal
22:44:29 <andythenorth> salt is quite rust-belt
22:44:36 <supermop_home> currently just sits at the up track blocking the line then reverses, crossing to down track below station
22:44:44 <supermop_home> which looks nice and quaint
22:44:58 <supermop_home> andythenorth - potash
22:44:58 <frosch123> farms with two outputs are always nice
22:45:04 <andythenorth> or soda ash mine could produce caustic soda (lye)
22:45:16 <frosch123> so i approve soda ash mine -> salt -> bulk terminal
22:46:25 <andythenorth> mix soda ash with quicklime for caustic soda :P
22:46:38 <andythenorth> or mix salt with limestone for soda ash + quicklime :P
22:46:45 <andythenorth> I like the soda ash mine sprite though :P
22:46:47 <frosch123> i guess that and one industry with steel+copper->???->ensp+export for port, and it's done
22:47:24 <andythenorth> ports tend to need 2 input cargos, otherwise the boost levels are hard to reach
22:50:07 <supermop_home> this ugly depot & headshunt hack replaces the nice crossover to the south :(
22:52:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: plastics is definitely out? o_O
22:52:28 <frosch123> yes, plastics are yoghurt
22:52:51 <andythenorth> wood is out, forests need FMSP
22:53:43 <frosch123> if you need more for prots
22:53:49 <frosch123> port can also take vehicles
22:54:09 <andythenorth> hmm workshop should make vehicle parts (motors and stuff)
22:54:13 <frosch123> and trading post can also take ensp or building materials
22:55:02 <andythenorth> I guess there are two sources of vehicles parts already
22:55:09 <frosch123> workshop should make smaller-scale stuff
22:55:19 <andythenorth> I was thinking the transformers :P
22:55:29 <andythenorth> electrical machines is a valid eye candy
22:55:44 <frosch123> also fine, but nothing for the vehicle chain :)
22:56:03 <andythenorth> steel finishing plant only produces vehicle bodies right now
22:56:13 <andythenorth> galvanised steel = building materials
22:57:03 <frosch123> if you add a second source for buildnig materials, definitely also send them to trading post
22:57:33 <andythenorth> that will ruin the chart :D
22:57:55 <andythenorth> BDMT probably should be treated like supplies
22:58:54 <frosch123> you could reverse the ordering for ports
22:59:05 <frosch123> port input on right, port output on left
23:01:51 <andythenorth> I tried headport and tailport earlier
23:01:57 <andythenorth> as an experiment
23:02:17 <andythenorth> I tried most graphviz options tbh :P
23:02:25 <andythenorth> none were worth adding
23:03:09 *** Guest7769 is now known as Prof_Frink
23:03:41 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7771
23:04:11 <andythenorth> instead of electrical machines, how about pressure vessels? :
23:04:17 <andythenorth> seems more steam punk
23:04:26 <andythenorth> still needs steel + copper
23:04:35 <frosch123> are they visually interesting?
23:04:46 <frosch123> sounds rather abstract to me
23:05:09 <supermop_home> have odd shapes sometimes
23:05:20 <supermop_home> reactor vessels could work
23:05:44 <frosch123> essentially pipe :p
23:07:32 <andythenorth> my thoughts too :P
23:07:37 <andythenorth> copper pipes? o_O
23:08:04 <andythenorth> chart is once again appalling :P
23:08:08 <andythenorth> but economy seems better
23:08:54 <frosch123> well, in this case fmsp should be an arrow :p
23:09:55 <andythenorth> adding building materials to steel finishing plant was worst problem
23:11:12 * andythenorth pushes a removal of that
23:11:26 <andythenorth> so tin mine -> tin + steel -> tinplate works
23:11:44 <andythenorth> goods + tinplate
23:11:48 <andythenorth> tinplate -> port
23:12:22 <andythenorth> all the metals? o_O
23:12:32 <andythenorth> nickel plating anyone?
23:13:18 <andythenorth> 29 cargos, 24 industries :D
23:13:27 <andythenorth> that is quite a dense network to build
23:15:35 <andythenorth> tin mines also often produce lead
23:17:38 <andythenorth> copper + zinc gives brass
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23:57:23 <Samu> guys, what is CargoMonitorMap used for?
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