IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-27
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00:24:45 <_dp_> omg, I just noticed there is a huge blog post about brix
00:44:01 <_dp_> oh, and even 8bpp-1x version! definitely missed that
00:44:28 <_dp_> V453000, but it on bananas, it's actually something that can sanely be used on servers
00:44:59 <_dp_> tracks look awful in it though :(
00:45:41 <_dp_> is it possible to make default tracks use brix ground sprite?
00:46:16 <_dp_> not sure if rails will be visible on it though. but maglev and mono should be fine
00:48:08 <frosch123> _dp_: md5sum of 32bpp and 8bpp grfs are identical
00:48:14 <frosch123> you can only have one on bananas
00:48:22 <frosch123> but client and server can have different grfs
00:48:38 <frosch123> also brix has a ton of switches to disable various things
00:48:45 <_dp_> frosch123, wut? you mean grfid?
00:49:11 <frosch123> the md5sum is only computed for the logical part of the grf, not for the sprite data
00:49:32 <frosch123> this allows you to use different 8bpp/32bpp grfs on clients and servers compatibily
00:51:50 <_dp_> but it doesn't allow server to select 8bpp as default version :(
00:52:00 <frosch123> the 8bpp version of brix is created using "grfstrip" which removes selected bpp and zoom levels from a grf without changing the md5 of the logical part
00:52:21 <frosch123> _dp_: that's kind of the intention
00:52:28 <frosch123> anyway, it's a static newgrf
00:52:35 <frosch123> servers shouldn't use it anyway
00:54:05 <_dp_> why not? if I want to combine it with other grfs that look good together
00:54:29 <_dp_> but 80meg download is just not an option for a regular server
00:55:23 <_dp_> and if people want 32 they can always download it manually
00:55:44 <frosch123> well, there can only be one default :p
01:01:38 <_dp_> there is always an option to use another grfid for different default
01:02:36 <_dp_> why does even static grf even has to be compatible by md5 or grfid?
01:02:44 <_dp_> it will redefine sprites regardless
01:04:15 <_dp_> allowing people to download different "compatible" version is just another way to select static grf
01:05:00 <_dp_> hm, well, I guess it's not exactly the same as it only "activates" if grf is selected
01:06:44 <_dp_> still a feature that hardly anyone well ever use
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09:41:20 <V453000> _dp_: did you try 8bpp with x4 zoom? :)
09:41:59 <V453000> but seriously, 80MB isn't that bad
09:50:33 <V453000> if you don't want people to download the full thing then you can just point them to use it as static, and use the x4 8bpp version on server
09:50:56 <V453000> might be smarter not to use it a all onserver then and just let them use it as static
09:51:00 <V453000> but yeah there are many options
09:51:21 <V453000> of course making it a base set one day would help
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10:05:25 <andythenorth> total destruction
10:06:43 * andythenorth doesn't always do what users want
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10:06:55 <andythenorth> there was one called V453000
10:07:00 <andythenorth> and also child #1 here
10:07:21 <andythenorth> I have in-house testing now
10:07:28 <V453000> #1 loves trains so far
10:07:30 <andythenorth> no need for forumz even
10:07:33 <V453000> everything going well
10:08:42 <andythenorth> FIRS design goal is now not gameplay
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10:46:26 <andythenorth> probably need to unwreck FIRS now :|
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11:06:56 <andythenorth> can't make nice cargo flow graphs
11:21:48 <andythenorth> is 'pipeline terminal' a valid industry?
11:22:00 <andythenorth> accepts pipe, supplies petrol, chemicals
11:23:19 <V453000> 0 new cargoes to draw
11:32:46 <andythenorth> it's liquids terminal, already in game :P
11:32:54 <andythenorth> just maybe not restricted to coasts :P
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12:39:51 <Samu> i'm trying to make oil rigs to deliver cargo only on oil rig stations
12:40:07 <Samu> let's see if I can do it
12:42:11 <Samu> there's also the exclusivity deal affecting it, so it's gonna be a 2-in-1 fix
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13:46:44 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 47 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 30 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
13:56:18 <Samu> i have a question for those familiar with newgrf industries
13:56:39 <Samu> if the industry is built on water, do they always have a station?
13:56:56 <Samu> they're only transported by ships?
13:58:05 <Samu> or can they be on water without any attached station to it?
14:05:04 <Samu> this is starting to complicate, for accepted cargo
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14:14:51 <Alberth> yes, the only water industry in default set is an oilrig, and all newgrf industries are derived from default set
15:03:17 <Samu> dealing with cargo acceptance is a bit more complex
15:04:03 <Wolf01> Fuck space engineers... use the dev channel instead of releasing 3 updates every day... :(
15:04:54 <Samu> so, I want all buildable stations to never accept cargo that an oil rig industry accepts
15:05:08 <Samu> exception is the oilrig station only
15:05:14 <Samu> it's the only station that accepts
15:05:57 <Samu> if you bring passengers or mail to an oil rig inudstry, only the station it provides accepts it
15:06:08 <Samu> all stations you build around, won't accept it
15:06:58 <Wolf01> Makes sense, you don't deliver engineers by train to an oil rig
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15:07:28 <Samu> i'm trying to figure a way
15:07:30 <Wolf01> Also you don't deliver 3450 tourists to an oil rig
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15:08:03 <Samu> to make only 1 station accept it, while the others, even being within acceptance range, not accept them, it's hard
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15:46:35 <frosch123> vehicle alignment is horrible
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16:03:00 <Wolf01> I've heard something about it from a doubtful source (9gag), newspapers here don't say anything, what happened?
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16:21:51 <LordAro> they did a thing (again)
16:23:22 <Wolf01> We did it too last Monday
16:23:36 <Wolf01> Or at least we tried...
16:23:55 <Wolf01> The answer was "shut the fuck up"
16:25:32 <Samu> I just got myself into another headache :(
16:26:14 <Samu> for cargo supplied, this was easy
16:26:24 <Samu> for cargo accepted, this is ... hell
16:27:37 <Samu> GetAcceptanceAroundTiles
16:29:00 <Samu> i need to pass around, the source of the acceptance
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16:48:23 <Samu> cargo accepted by industries built on water are to become only accepted at the industry's own station
16:49:01 <Samu> cargo accepted by anything else around the industry are no never be accepted at the industry's own station
16:52:23 <Samu> i was able to make an oil rig station accept coal :(
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17:27:47 <Samu> the oilfield should not accept coal
17:28:02 <Samu> the oilfield should also not provide iron ore
17:28:38 <Samu> the docks should not accept passengers, nor mail
17:28:51 <Samu> the docks should not provide coal
17:31:10 <Samu> but i'm a bit lost about "acceptance"
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17:47:02 <__ln__> catalonia did it now, finally
17:50:12 <Wolf01> What they want to do now? Put the entire population in prison?
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18:33:11 <Samu> finally got the official catchment area of the heliport at the oilrig
18:33:35 <Samu> the dock catchment area is 5
18:34:05 <Samu> game picks whichever is higher and uses that
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18:38:03 <Samu> CargoArray GetAcceptanceAroundTiles(TileIndex tile, int w, int h, int rad, uint32 *always_accepted = NULL);
18:38:20 <Samu> this needs to pass one more detail
18:38:30 <Samu> i'm getting somewhere, nice
18:47:44 <Alberth> isn't it dependent on the station catchment area?
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18:59:12 <Samu> dauym, got to change a lot :(
19:01:16 <Samu> AddAcceptedCargo_Industry, AddAcceptedCargo_Object, AddAcceptedCargo_Town
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19:10:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: probably dissolve the parliament, and put the head of government in prison. possibly use some force
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19:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> overall, i don't see anyone "winning" in this situation, but the spanish government probably has the longer lever
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19:20:45 <Samu> AddAcceptedCargo_Town is my new headache :(
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19:22:47 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: it does seem to have reached a no win situation from a pr standpoint at least
19:24:48 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: obviously we need a new country, created from catalonia, basque, bavaria, ... ruled by the belgians
19:25:12 <Wolf01> And the Serenissima republic
19:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: is that one of those micronations?
19:25:58 <Eddi|zuHause> like the guy who declared his own state in a roundabout?
19:26:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that is slightly less micro :p
19:26:46 <Wolf01> We tried to declare independence too :P
19:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. i think there was some news recently
19:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> about more autonomy or something
19:27:50 <Wolf01> Yes, economic autonomy... which was soon taken as a trampoline for the independence XD
19:28:28 <Wolf01> Not that I give a fuck about independence, but I'm fine with the economic autonomy
19:30:03 * andythenorth is living in a newly independent nation
19:30:07 <andythenorth> no longer ruled from Brussels
19:30:27 <andythenorth> now ruled by some other people, that strictly, we didn't all vote for
19:30:41 <andythenorth> all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds
19:30:46 <supermop> 'Belgian Empire' would have been maybe more catchy
19:30:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: you live in a *united* kingdom, that's the opposite of independent, isn't it? :p
19:31:26 <supermop> frosch123: holding out hope for Free City of London?
19:31:42 <andythenorth> well at least we're free of the EU :P
19:31:54 <andythenorth> that Irish border might prove tricky though
19:31:58 <supermop> Imperial Belgian Exclave?
19:32:15 <frosch123> supermop: belgium is like the least-united country
19:32:30 <Samu> changing 1 function forces me to change all the involving functions like a chain reaction, :( this is boring
19:32:39 <supermop> andythenorth: the irish border is so boneheaded - seems evidence that many brexiteers never stopped to think about it
19:32:41 <Wolf01> That's why it was chosen to represent the EU
19:32:43 <frosch123> not sure how many people living in belgium acknowledge its existence
19:32:53 <andythenorth> how do I fix FIRS then?
19:32:55 <supermop> frosch123: thats what makes the Belgian Empire so funny
19:33:09 <supermop> to those of us with no post-colonial trauma
19:33:38 <Samu> AddAcceptedCargoSetMask must be changed too
19:33:46 <supermop> andythenorth: with convoluted border tariffs?
19:33:57 <andythenorth> supermop: I read that as 'post-colonial trams'
19:34:04 <andythenorth> I should find my glasses :|
19:34:22 <supermop> america has been largely tram-free in the post colonial era
19:35:20 <andythenorth> what steeltown might need...
19:35:59 <andythenorth> I added a builders yard, but it doesn't accept Pipe :P
19:36:16 <supermop> no indoor plumbing in steeltown?
19:36:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: add more metal types
19:37:08 <supermop> obviously Europe needs to revert to a 9th century level of princely states, fiefdoms, and walled cities
19:37:28 <andythenorth> frosch123: I did have more, then I knocked them out
19:37:35 <andythenorth> there was zinc, for galvanising
19:37:37 <Wolf01> Because builders yards use concrete or plastic pipes
19:37:43 <andythenorth> I saw a galvanising truck an hour ago
19:37:49 <andythenorth> Wolf01: probably that, yes
19:38:03 <supermop> andythenorth: pvc factory
19:38:05 <frosch123> metal tools use various alloys
19:38:39 <supermop> i feel like if you are going to have multiple types of metal making facilities might as well have many metals
19:39:01 <frosch123> chrom-vanadium-steel and stuff
19:39:03 <supermop> magnesium for some sweet mag wheels to go on those vehicles
19:39:06 <andythenorth> worth considering
19:39:21 <supermop> chrome for plating the trim on the vehicles
19:39:22 <andythenorth> I think this is a case where maybe I need to take V's advice
19:39:30 <andythenorth> V has 2 kinds of advice
19:39:38 <andythenorth> 2. make a clear schema for cargo glow
19:39:42 <supermop> leather hides for upgraded seates
19:40:09 <andythenorth> the current 'problem' is that to get ENSP you need pretty much the full steel chain running
19:40:15 <andythenorth> and to get enough steel, you need ENSP
19:40:37 <andythenorth> then once you have ENSP the whole chain scales up production by 200%, and there's nothing left to do in the game
19:42:18 <supermop> andythenorth: scramble to accomodate all the extra stuff?
19:42:27 <andythenorth> nah, it's kind of boring
19:42:37 <andythenorth> I have like 3 play testers reporting same (including me)
19:42:38 <supermop> extra capacity goes towards improving the standard of living
19:42:52 * andythenorth wonders if newgrf can set town growth cargos
19:42:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: so more chains, less deep
19:43:01 <supermop> make cars to send to your happy capitalist townsfolk
19:43:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's called "town effect"
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19:43:19 <supermop> i think thats why people still like extreme
19:43:32 <andythenorth> it's max 2 cargos, unless I use GS?
19:43:46 <frosch123> you can give multiple cargos the same effect
19:43:48 <supermop> things are all related, but can work separately
19:43:59 <frosch123> that makes town require either of them (not all of them)
19:44:07 * andythenorth didn't know that
19:44:11 <supermop> and you can have many varied challenges, rather than just SteelQuest TM
19:44:30 <andythenorth> it would be nice if towns could grow with goods, vehicles, food, building materials
19:44:43 <supermop> andythenorth: they can?
19:44:51 <andythenorth> never explored it
19:44:59 <andythenorth> years ago someone else set the town effects in FIRS
19:45:03 <andythenorth> I left them alone
19:45:27 <Samu> /* static */ int32 ScriptTile::GetCargoAcceptance(TileIndex tile, CargoID cargo_type, int width, int height, int radius)
19:46:16 <Samu> is the AI querying a tile, or building a station?
19:46:34 <Samu> anyway, it doesn't matter, it's always false
19:50:07 <andythenorth> so if I set TOWNGROWTH_WATER for two cargos, which will be reported as required?
19:50:38 <frosch123> i think it's supposed to list both
19:50:45 <frosch123> not sure whether i finished that patch
19:50:53 <frosch123> but i was working on it about 7 years ago
19:52:16 <andythenorth> Alberth: FIRS compile keeps getting DoSed by broken Polish translations via eints, anything I can do?
19:53:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: seems to just report one of the cargos, probably the first :)
19:53:21 <andythenorth> (lowest ID afaict)
19:55:51 <Alberth> remove the offending polish translations would work
19:56:29 <Alberth> maybe nml should be more tolerant?
19:57:31 <andythenorth> I keep removing the strings and pushing them back
19:57:40 <frosch123> what is broken about them?
19:58:09 <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "src/lang/polish.lng", line 772: A gender choice list {G} has to be followed by another string code or provide an offset
19:59:17 <frosch123> ok, so eints should have rejected the translation
19:59:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: replace the "{G..}" with an "y"
19:59:46 <frosch123> if you just remove the line, eints will add it back
19:59:58 <frosch123> if you provide a new translation, eints will take your new one
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20:32:55 <andythenorth> "frosch123: andythenorth: so more chains, less deep" <- more shallow chains, but steel still deep
20:33:10 <andythenorth> dunno about the scrap metal -> steel chain
20:33:29 <andythenorth> also ENSP might as well be abundant
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20:38:56 <Samu> I think I did this... almost there, must test towns a bit better
20:40:20 <frosch123> imho add more metal and alloy types
20:40:56 <frosch123> allow each of them to be either processed into goods directly, or to be fed into the big vehicle chain
20:41:34 <Samu> if this ship i'm staring at, is able to load mail at the oilfield station, I failed
20:41:46 <frosch123> basically many short chains to start with, but then you can switch over a share of the products into the big chain
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20:54:05 <Wolf01> Are you sure the surroundings of the oil rig produce enough mail?
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21:02:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: probably works
21:02:13 <andythenorth> what metals do we like?
21:03:23 <Wolf01> Offshore manganese nodules mine
21:04:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: brass, bronce are obvious continuations from them
21:05:17 <frosch123> then you need more exotic metals, like chrome, silver, ...
21:07:00 <V453000> I have had many reports from people since I made YETI that they downloaded a newgrf from bananas and they see ? instead of some sprites ... yet apparently the grf runs properly
21:07:21 <V453000> is it possible to do something about that so that the game makes better sure that it's downloaded whole and functional?
21:07:56 <Wolf01> Better than crc check?
21:08:14 <frosch123> broken bananas downloads have been a mistery since the beginning
21:10:19 <V453000> ok was just wondering what's up with it
21:10:29 <V453000> reports restarted with brix :P
21:10:30 <frosch123> problem is that ottd does not notice when files get truncated
21:10:46 <frosch123> the important stuff is at the beginning of the file
21:12:07 <Wolf01> Make banana create tars with md5 of the content so OTTD could check it
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21:17:00 <V453000> BTW I was kind of surprised how well does YETI fit BRIX :)
21:17:05 <V453000> the resolution has it's merits
21:17:43 <V453000> andythenorth: FIRS EZ tomorrow?
21:25:02 <V453000> don't need 32bpp but just draw 16 times more pixels
21:25:14 <frosch123> 100 MB for a grf with a single vehicle is fine, is it?
21:25:31 <V453000> how are you doing frosch123 ?
21:25:57 <frosch123> currently i broke everything
21:26:11 <V453000> well that sounds like a good start
21:26:13 <frosch123> i made rgba eater 7 times faster though
21:26:27 <V453000> just by making proper code instead of my heap of shit?
21:26:46 <frosch123> i only changed a few lines
21:27:05 <frosch123> 1. disable the threading, there is nothing that can be run in paralel, it just locks everything down
21:27:15 <frosch123> 2. use getdata/putdata instead of get/putpixel
21:27:28 <V453000> 2. was already suggested to me at some point yeah :0
21:27:29 <frosch123> 3. use dictionary lookup for already known rgba values
21:27:49 <V453000> that's one thing that is very high on my schedule to learn :)
21:27:53 <V453000> dictionaries and classes
21:28:15 <V453000> using a json as a dictionary at work now for some stuff
21:28:44 <V453000> I'm surprised the threading isn't helpful for you
21:28:54 <frosch123> what would run in parallel?
21:29:05 <frosch123> it's all python, and there is only one python thread
21:29:20 <V453000> it utilizes all of my threads
21:29:33 <frosch123> well, run it with -t 1 and compare the times
21:29:34 <V453000> I split the image into strips in the temp folder, and merge them after all processing is done
21:29:45 <V453000> I tried many -t values
21:30:01 <V453000> in general 16 threads compared to 1 thread were 8 times faster
21:30:07 <frosch123> for me all -t values are the same until i hit num-cores, then it gets slower
21:30:09 <V453000> and in consistent manner, 8 threads would be 4 times faster
21:30:36 <V453000> could it be some linux vs windoze bs?
21:33:52 <frosch123> afaik the python interpreter lock applies to all python implementations
21:33:56 <frosch123> alberth may know better
21:34:14 <V453000> well people warned me about some similar stuff, and I won't even pretend to understand this stuff
21:34:18 <V453000> but my results were clearly positive
21:38:25 <frosch123> ah, i see, using get/putdata i actually broke the threading :p
21:39:15 <frosch123> every thread processed the whole image, instead of only the strip
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21:42:49 <frosch123> it's faster the more pixels have actually the same color
21:42:56 <frosch123> which are quite a lot in my case
21:49:40 <_dp_> because if not you probably should, it generally is few times faster than cpython
21:50:37 <frosch123> "times" is a strong word, do you mean "percent"? :p
21:51:01 <_dp_> was "times" last time I checked :p
21:51:50 <_dp_> and it's good at optimizing computations
21:52:13 <Samu> i wonder if the name "oil_rig" is confusing
21:52:33 <Samu> should it be named "accept_on_water"?
22:01:35 <Samu> what is patch do is... screw everyone who builds trains to transport oil from oil wells, essentially this
22:02:45 <Samu> i have no idea how it will work with newgrfs
22:05:03 <Samu> ST2: do you have an opinion?
22:05:41 <ST2> not following, but we manage that differently
22:06:32 <andythenorth> pypy is only faster for certain cases
22:06:50 <andythenorth> some of the common web libraries / stacks are slower on pypy, from results I've seen :)
22:08:00 <Samu> ok, preparing the patch, just renaming oil_rig to on_water, seems to make sense in a broader way
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22:19:38 <andythenorth> split foundry sand and glass sand?
22:21:28 <andythenorth> what are plastics made from?
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22:33:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: chalk, starch, cellulose, wood flour, ivory dust and zinc oxide.
22:33:21 <frosch123> the "ivory" part looks weird to me
22:34:02 <frosch123> since they overlap with other products
22:34:11 <frosch123> oil is too isolated
22:34:18 <andythenorth> I tried Kaolin yesterday
22:34:28 <andythenorth> wondering if I can remove generic chemicals
22:34:39 <andythenorth> generally steeltown seems to reward more specific cargos
22:45:22 <andythenorth> coal tar also? o_O
22:53:59 <andythenorth> need more simple cargos to dump into ports
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23:24:46 <Samu> test for bugs plz, or revise
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23:44:01 <Wolf01> Ok, that could be one of the best things you could have done
23:50:27 <Samu> i haven't really tested the exclusive transports right thingy yet, but i suppose it's working as I expect
23:51:37 <supermop> Samu: neat idea, but some people may dislike how it forces you to use ships
23:52:34 <supermop> any ai that cannot use ships, or if a ship newgrf that for some reason doesn't support the water bourne cargo is used...
23:53:02 <supermop> currently a dock on land near the rig can act like a 'pipe line'
23:53:28 <supermop> also sometimes i start a game with FIRS and forget to use a ship set
23:54:14 <supermop> default ships can't carry fish, so then the only way i can get fish is by truck from a station or dock on land near a fishing grounds
23:55:06 <Samu> hmm so... it needs a game settings, is what u say
23:55:16 <Samu> to enable or disable this behavioir
23:55:16 <supermop> also... at least currently, a station can't get 100% of an industry's cargo
23:55:29 <supermop> even if it is the only station at the industry
23:55:52 <supermop> samu, it needs an on/off at least, but possibly granularity
23:56:22 <supermop> so you could prevent the rig from producing iron ore, but allow the dock to produce oil
23:57:16 <Wolf01> Yes, at least to not break old games
23:58:14 <Samu> i thought all waterborne industries had a station
23:58:53 <Wolf01> Yep, but some weird individuals use normal stations to load from those industries
continue to next day ⏵
