IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-25
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00:00:05 <frosch123> hmm, i am not used to that long vehicle names
00:00:37 <frosch123> there are actually a lot of duplicate names
00:01:10 <supermop_> frosch123: hard to come up with enough
00:02:03 <frosch123> is it supposed to be a japanese set?
00:02:19 <supermop_> first part of string is fake manufacturer name, 2nd part is type of tram roughly
00:02:56 <supermop_> no, supposed to be manufacturers from around the world
00:03:10 <supermop_> some based loosely on real companies
00:03:52 <supermop_> there are 2 fake japanese companies, 2-3 fake german ones, 2 fake british ones, one fake italian one, one hawaiian one
00:04:43 <frosch123> well, i would suggest to shorten the names a lot
00:05:16 <supermop_> for the trucks it is similar problem
00:05:35 <supermop_> but those i made up model numbers which helps
00:05:38 <frosch123> Abc Electric Tram -> Abc (electric)
00:05:58 <supermop_> yes i guess it is obvious it is electric
00:06:26 <frosch123> there are many which have like 30 letters, and only distinguish in 2
00:06:41 <frosch123> Kaimuki 1M Electric TRam Motor and Trailer
00:07:07 <frosch123> "Kaimuki 1M" and "Kaimuki BX" would look better
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01:19:33 <Samu> who worked on linkgraphs and cargodist stuff?
02:07:36 *** firsquestion has joined #openttd
02:08:11 <firsquestion> is this the right place to ask openttd / FIRS questions?
02:09:55 <firsquestion> i want to know if the devs know about the MD5 mismatch for the latest version of FIRS (v3 alpha 10)
02:11:56 <Sylf> You should always just ask the main question
02:12:07 <Sylf> Someone will come around and answer it eventually
02:12:08 <firsquestion> sorry im new here
02:12:59 <firsquestion> but with the latest FIR 3, the MD5 hash for the openttd bananas server is "34 20 b9 7b 1b 84 19 4e d7 df 6f b7 8b 17 d8 f2" but the openttdcoop.org version, which seems to be the main FIRS site has an MD5 hash of 15 b9 63 1d b0 8d 31 99 33 32 27 9e 97 7d 5c c9
02:13:13 <firsquestion> so this "firs.grf" creates a mismatch
02:13:42 <firsquestion> im not sure which firs.grf is the main one that everyone in a server should use
02:14:44 <Sylf> When you try to join a server, it shows if you have all the needed newgrf. If not, it gives an option to attempt to download the right version on the spot from the official downloader system (bananas)
02:15:09 <firsquestion> yeah, and it said there was a mismatch since there are apparently 2 different firs.grf files, when they should be identical
02:15:11 <Sylf> so you don't need to try ti find all those md5 hash and stuff that's beyond what some of us would like to care about
02:15:26 <firsquestion> they both claim to be v3.0 alpha 10, but the mismatch means they are not identical
02:15:50 <firsquestion> with all of the other NewGRFs ive dl with the content program they all matched just fine
02:16:02 <firsquestion> but with the recent update to FIRS 3.0, there seems to be a problem
02:16:03 <Sylf> as long as you have a copy of the actual right version with the right md5 hash grfid and all that stuff, you can have multiple copies of firs
02:16:21 <firsquestion> but i need to know which version is the 'real' version
02:16:30 <firsquestion> bc a friend wanted to start an openttd server
02:16:51 <firsquestion> and they used the openttdcoop FIRS 3 which is apparently different from the bananas server
02:16:56 <Sylf> whichever version that's picked by the server is the correct version for that server.
02:17:08 <firsquestion> but which is the official FIRS version?
02:17:14 <firsquestion> bananas or openttdcoop?
02:17:30 <firsquestion> well which is the version that reddit uses?
02:17:31 <Sylf> There isn't a single official version.
02:17:39 <Sylf> So, just tell me which server you're trying to connect
02:17:46 <Sylf> Then I can tell what's going on.
02:17:53 <firsquestion> i guess im not understand why different versions are using the exact version number and filename. that part doesnt make sense
02:18:11 <firsquestion> the server is currently down now due to the mismatch
02:18:15 <Sylf> file name really doesn't matter.
02:18:21 <firsquestion> and he asked me to figure out which version is the official FIRS version
02:18:23 <Sylf> Version number sometimes doesn't matter eith.r
02:18:32 <firsquestion> well the md5 mismatch stopped the game
02:18:40 <Sylf> Just tell me which server you're trying to connect, and THEN I can help you.
02:18:44 <firsquestion> we realized people had bananas versions from content, and the openttdcoop version
02:18:58 <firsquestion> the server is currently down now. you cant cannot to it
02:19:08 <Sylf> Which coop server are you trying to connect?
02:19:09 <firsquestion> he asked me to figure out which firs.grf is the official FIRS version
02:19:29 <firsquestion> its a person server thats down. you cannot connect to it
02:19:42 <firsquestion> he took it offline due to the mismatch
02:20:03 <firsquestion> and tasked me to figure out why theres a mismatch. and thats why im here bc i dont understand why there are multiple firs.grf files
02:20:17 <Sylf> Tell him to bring it back online.
02:20:51 <firsquestion> but thats not the point . i just need to know which FIRS 3 is the 'correct' version
02:21:02 <Sylf> There is NO single correct version.
02:21:08 <Sylf> All versions are correct.
02:21:32 <Sylf> What version is correct for THAT PARTICULAR SERVER depends on what version of FIRS is used ON THAT SERVER.
02:21:37 <firsquestion> but dont you think thats confusing to have multiple files with the same name and version number and yet a mismatch still occurs?
02:21:55 <Sylf> When mismatch happens, you can download the correct version on the spot.
02:21:56 <firsquestion> do you work with FIRS?
02:21:59 <Sylf> Then you have the right version.
02:22:14 <firsquestion> have you tried alpha 10 by any chance?
02:22:27 <firsquestion> do you know someone who has?
02:22:49 <Sylf> I've been playing this game for 7 years.
02:23:13 <glx> I think you should ask again in a more GB friendly time
02:23:16 <firsquestion> so its common to have the same filenames and version numbers but the md5 is radically different?
02:23:23 <firsquestion> bc i thought bananas was the central server to get all the newgrfs
02:23:52 <Sylf> But bananas also hosts MANY different versions - all historically released versions.
02:24:00 <firsquestion> bc right now for FIRS 3, bananas is listing 2 different sources
02:24:16 <Sylf> So it's best to download the version that's indicated as the correct version INSIDE the game.
02:24:21 <firsquestion> so why doesnt bananas have the other md5 version then?
02:24:33 <firsquestion> the one on that website is different from the linked openttdcoop one. its just very confusing
02:24:37 <Sylf> Bananas WEBSITE only DISPLAYS the latest version.
02:24:47 <firsquestion> but it also has a dl link too
02:25:00 <Sylf> But the in-game downloader can detect and download the correct version for any given server, as long as it was ever published on bananas.
02:25:01 <firsquestion> and that part worked fine for alpha 9, but alpha 10 was different apparently
02:25:13 <glx> newgrf version is not reliable, that's why MD5 is checked :)
02:25:28 <firsquestion> yeah so if there are different md5 versions, why doesnt bananas list the other versions?
02:25:40 <Sylf> Some times the grf author forgets to update the version string between two versions.
02:25:58 <firsquestion> so that means the FIRS openttdcoop version is alpha 11?
02:26:21 <firsquestion> is one of the FIRS devs in this room now? maybe they can help me
02:26:40 <firsquestion> bc im just trying to find the latest version
02:26:41 <Sylf> Please, just DON'T download it from the bananas website.
02:26:48 <Sylf> DO USE THE IN-GAME DOWNLOADER.
02:26:58 <firsquestion> and doesnt the gamae downloader use the bananas website?
02:27:09 <firsquestion> or does it use a different server
02:27:12 <Sylf> Yes, but it can see more than what you see on the web site.
02:27:26 <Sylf> Actually, I take it back.
02:27:34 <firsquestion> so is there a website that lists all the different FIRS versions altogether?
02:27:38 <Sylf> bananas website is just a user interface to a bigger system called bananas.
02:27:44 <glx> that's why you should ask again at evening european time
02:28:06 <firsquestion> yeah it was my understanding that bananas was a central server and that if someone wants to host, they should go to bananas to get the newgrfs
02:28:13 <firsquestion> but then this mismatch occurred
02:28:31 <firsquestion> but it sounds like the website for bananas is not showing all the files
02:28:31 <Sylf> So, use the in-game downloader to download the right version for that server.
02:28:39 <firsquestion> so if there a bananas website that will show all the files?
02:28:45 <firsquestion> yeah the in game downloader gave me the wrong version
02:28:47 <firsquestion> thats why im here
02:29:08 <firsquestion> bc the mismatch prevented the game from working
02:29:13 <Sylf> Please trust me, and use the in-game downloader.
02:29:21 <Sylf> How many times have I sad that so far already?
02:29:31 <Sylf> In-game downloader will solve your issue.
02:29:32 <glx> and download on the server page
02:29:50 <Sylf> Oh, I forgot that that part.
02:30:01 <firsquestion> which server page
02:30:06 <Sylf> In the game, when you're trying to connect to the server, you can see the newgrf setting
02:30:19 <firsquestion> yeah it said mismatch in red
02:30:22 <glx> when you are joining a server you have the option to get missing newgrf
02:30:26 <Sylf> If there's a newgrf mismatch, you can open the dialog, and check which newgrf's are missing
02:30:38 <Sylf> on that window, there's also the button that lets you download the missing newgrfs
02:30:39 <firsquestion> well thats just it, they are both called alpha 10
02:31:14 <Sylf> trust the game system, and let the game download the right version for you when you attempt to connect to a server.
02:31:25 <glx> in main menu you always get latest version, but in server page you get the required by server one
02:31:28 <firsquestion> yeah the dl the missing grf part didnt work
02:31:33 <firsquestion> does the server host have to config that?
02:32:12 <Sylf> If the dude who's hosting the server somehow got a version that was never released to the bananas, then that would be a problem.
02:32:37 <firsquestion> yeah he got his file from the FIRS website
02:32:42 <firsquestion> and that sent me down this rabbit hole
02:32:53 <firsquestion> bc i get all of my newgrfs from bananas/content
02:33:09 <firsquestion> and i thought it had to be a bug since the filenames and versions are identical for some reason
02:33:10 <Sylf> He should use the version of firs that he can download in the game
02:33:32 <firsquestion> he said he couldnt get the content download to work on his server and had to install the newgrfs manually
02:33:38 <firsquestion> since he said everything is cmd line
02:33:51 <glx> it may be a newer version on FIRS site not uploaded to bananas yet
02:34:05 <firsquestion> yeah that part i dont know. all i know is that the md5 mismatch cause an issue
02:34:08 <Sylf> he can download things in-game over command line too.
02:34:25 <Sylf> have that server host come to the irc channel - that would be easier
02:34:41 <glx> he can also download files on a client and then copy them on his server
02:35:03 <firsquestion> can you give me the cmd line code to tell him? hes on a different irc server
02:35:10 <Sylf> rcon commands are good enough for in-game download of newgrfs
02:35:46 <firsquestion> so which rcon command would he type to get to to download latest ver of FIRS 3 and FIRS + ECS?
02:36:59 <firsquestion> how to isolate the FIRS stuff?
02:37:00 <Sylf> that should download all versions available on bananas
02:38:56 <firsquestion> is it case senstive?
02:39:15 <firsquestion> he says rcon isnt grabbing the files
02:39:22 <firsquestion> does he need to config something else to get it to work?
02:39:32 <glx> content state gives the id
02:39:36 <Sylf> he needs to have rcon password set in the openttd.cfg
02:39:46 <Sylf> and pass the rcon password with each rcon command
02:39:51 <firsquestion> how does he get the pw?
02:40:27 <firsquestion> he said he already set the pw in the cfg
02:40:30 <firsquestion> what else can he check
02:40:51 <Sylf> so, those commands would be more like
02:40:53 <glx> first step is always "rcon content update"
02:41:01 <Sylf> rcon password 'content update'
02:41:13 <Sylf> rcon password 'content select 4865'
02:41:19 <Sylf> rcon password 'content download'
02:41:33 <firsquestion> he says it fails to dl and doesnt return an error
02:41:55 <Sylf> where is he running those commands?
02:42:06 <Sylf> from a client that's connected to the server?
02:42:12 <firsquestion> the server is all cmd line
02:42:19 <firsquestion> so he just rcons thru there
02:42:27 <firsquestion> it doesnt have a client
02:42:41 <glx> oh skip rcon if there's local access to the consol
02:42:50 <firsquestion> glx so what should he do?
02:43:08 <firsquestion> Sylf: he says that keeps failing
02:43:17 <firsquestion> it just doesnt dl anything apparently
02:43:21 <glx> Wait until "Content server connection closed" is printed in the console.
02:43:26 <Sylf> We really need that guy in this channel.
02:43:36 <Sylf> Can't he connect to 2 irc servers?
02:43:59 <firsquestion> unfortunately he says he doesnt want to go to another server
02:44:46 <DorpsGek> glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
02:45:36 <glx> just in case it's a firewall problem, but outbound connections should not be a problem
02:47:55 <glx> anyway after typing "content update" he has to wait until "Content server connection closed" is printed in the console.
02:49:27 <glx> because the list is retrieved asynchronly I think
02:50:59 <firsquestion> hes also asking what is the content download folder for a server?
02:51:15 <Sylf> it worked for me to download when I tried the commands before I saw the server connection closed message
02:51:42 <firsquestion> he also tells me hes forced to manually unpack the tar files
02:51:47 <firsquestion> shouldnt content dl do this for him?
02:51:58 <firsquestion> so what is he doing wrong?
02:52:07 <glx> openttd just reads them natively
02:52:09 <firsquestion> he says he only see the tars
02:52:23 <Sylf> don't forget rescannewgrf command after download is done
02:52:44 <Sylf> and don't forget to update the openttd.cfg to use the right version of firs
02:52:48 <firsquestion> rcon rescan newgrf?
02:53:12 <Sylf> because he's not using rcon
02:57:17 <firsquestion> he says rescannewgrf isnt working
03:00:13 <glx> hmm isn't rescannewgrf a dev command ?
03:00:39 <Sylf> Sorry, but "it isn't working" doesn't allow us to help you much
03:01:13 <Sylf> we have no idea what's exactly not working, how it's not working... like what exact command was used, what the user exepected to see, what he user exactly saw in reality, etc
03:01:44 <Sylf> rescannewgrf is a pretty generic command to me
03:01:52 <Sylf> it's listed in list_cmds
03:01:53 <firsquestion> well the other thing i want to know is that, i had alpha 9 and then told content dl to get firs 3 alpha 10
03:02:03 <firsquestion> but now my alpha 9 file is no longer listed under 'active newgrf files'
03:02:12 <firsquestion> its apparently gone. is that normal? you cant have more than one version listed?
03:02:25 <Sylf> there's an option somewhere to display all the versions that you have.
03:03:38 <glx> set newgrf_show_old_versions 1
03:03:58 <firsquestion> ok let me try that
03:04:22 <Sylf> I was searching in openttd.cfg :P
03:04:37 <firsquestion> so that option cannot be set in game?
03:04:44 <firsquestion> i dont see it in Settings
03:04:56 <Sylf> hit ` key (or whatever key to the left of 1)
03:05:03 <Sylf> that opens the command interface
03:05:10 <Sylf> and type in that command in that console
03:05:17 <firsquestion> oh so theres no gui for this?
03:05:47 <glx> you usually don't want to see old stuff
03:05:51 <firsquestion> ok i pressed ` and typed it in
03:05:56 <firsquestion> but pressign enter didnt do anything
03:06:07 <Sylf> close the newgrf window and open it again
03:06:08 <glx> now open the dialogs as before
03:06:37 <firsquestion> its still not listing the older version
03:07:08 <glx> maybe be it also needs "set newgrf_developer_tools 1"
03:07:14 <firsquestion> ah there it goes
03:07:18 <firsquestion> i pressed ` in a different spot
03:07:38 <firsquestion> but thanks for the help! :)
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03:20:41 <firsquestion> so on his server he still says that while content is download the tar files, the server still doesnt recognize the tar files as newgrf
03:20:50 <firsquestion> is there another setting he has to do to get it to recognize?
03:21:38 <Sylf> how did he determine that it doesn't recognize the tar files as newgrf?
03:22:46 <firsquestion> he launches the server and the newgrf isnt listed
03:23:08 <firsquestion> he keeps telling me he has to manually extract the tars to get the newgrfs
03:23:14 <firsquestion> and i told him the game should do that automatically
03:23:18 <Sylf> What does "the newgrf sin't listed" mean? Where does he expect to see it?
03:23:28 <firsquestion> the server loads and newgrf isnt loaded
03:23:36 <firsquestion> but he says content dl is just dl the tar file
03:23:56 <Sylf> yes, and that's all the game needs.
03:24:10 <Sylf> Has he edited openttd.cfg?
03:24:29 <firsquestion> but he still says it doesnt work unless he extracts the tar files
03:25:12 <Sylf> did he compile the game himself?
03:25:44 <Sylf> maybe he didn't have all the dev libraries, and it's not compiled with tar support?
03:26:05 <glx> tar doesn't require a lib
03:26:35 <Sylf> but if he claims that it works when he untars the file... then I dunno
03:26:56 <Sylf> tar file works perfectly for me
03:27:13 <glx> maybe it's just a mistake in openttd.cfg
03:27:53 <Sylf> oh, yeah, if he edits openttd.cfg manually, the newgrf line probably looks different
03:28:29 <firsquestion> so is there a way he can do this without having to manually edit the cfg?
03:29:14 <Sylf> he can open openttd locally, set up newgrf locally, exit the game (which writes the correct version of openttd.cfg) and upload the cfg to the server
03:29:52 <Sylf> or, create a map locally, and upload the .sav file, and load the .sav file on the server
03:30:18 <firsquestion> well he doesnt use save files to start with
03:30:30 <firsquestion> i just dont understand why his server doesnt use the tars automatically
03:31:05 <glx> probably just a mistake in cfg
03:34:47 <glx> should be something like grfid|md5|tarname/newgrf.grf
03:35:35 <Sylf> F1250007|67611437534CD7C36BEF40A74063EF4B|firs_industry_replacement_set_3-3.0.0alpha10/firs.grf = 0 0 0 0 0 0 16 150 80 300
03:35:59 <Sylf> That's what I got when I loaded firs3 tar
03:38:06 <firsquestion> it looks like hes not available right now
03:38:14 <Sylf> o_O and my local copy of tar file doesn't have all-lower-case file name
03:38:33 <firsquestion> but when he comes back is there anything else i should tell him to try to fix the tar issue?
03:39:03 <glx> I think the issue is just an error in openttd.cfg
03:39:08 <Sylf> copy/paste the line I pasted and try that?
03:39:48 <glx> the best way to configure newgrf for a server is to do it in a client
03:43:25 <firsquestion> ok i have the openttd cfg i just have to post it
03:43:56 <firsquestion> version_string = 1.7.1 version_number = 17186CE9 [newgrf] 44440A01|FCEEC76CF44EC23E7FE9C88048CF11CC|av8_Aviators_Aircraft_Set-2.21/pb_av8w.grf = 54570101|E25D564F7F8F4B3AC6C7F375BD25B387|ussetw.grf = 41501202|B13DD8FB0D7C34CACAC2FE68BD137BB9|heqs.grf = F1250007|67611437534CD7C36BEF40A74063EF4B|FIRS_Industry_Replacement_Set_3-3.0.0alpha10/firs.grf = 4A530117|CA32127C974FD70434F9CA4E0AD4A501|EFrefit.grf = [newgrf-static]
03:44:20 <firsquestion> he told me had to manually extract the files to get the server to recognize them
03:47:03 <firsquestion> so can you see why it never wants to use the tar files from the cfg?
03:47:30 <Sylf> The only things that's different from my cfg line are
03:47:56 <Sylf> my line has all lower case file name, even when I'm on a system that cares about file name case sensitivity (linux)
03:48:19 <Sylf> and my line has extra values after =, which are the newgrf default values, I assume.
03:48:44 <firsquestion> so why are his uppercase?
03:48:59 <Sylf> Because he edited it by hand?
03:49:10 <Sylf> I can try his version and see
03:50:27 <Sylf> with ~/.openttd/content_download/newgrf/FIRS_Industry_Replacement_Set_3-3.0.0alpha10.tar in place
03:52:07 <firsquestion> can you copy and paste the full newgrf file with the lowercase?
03:52:11 <Sylf> where did he get his openttd? is his server running windows? linux? osx?
03:52:22 <firsquestion> i think its a linux box with only cmd line
03:55:18 <Sylf> all lowercase would be ~/.openttd/content_download/newgrf/firs_industry_replacement_set_3-3.0.0alpha10.tar
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14:36:58 <Samu> can you notice the repetition
15:24:26 <Borg> on wiki, ctrl+click on goto station means full load.. but it sets full load any.. instead
15:24:34 <Borg> is there a way to make full load default?
15:33:13 <Samu> ah, the "full load" all cargo?
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15:36:21 <Borg> yeah, full load all cargo..
15:38:41 <Wolf01> It only works like that, make a patch with a settings to swap the behaviour
15:38:50 <dihedral> Samu: write a method to get rid of your repetition
15:51:51 <Borg> Wolf01: yeah, would be nice to have extra options in seting to set default behavior of buttons in orders..
15:58:22 <supermop> hmm mother in law has sent me picture of ton of obi and kimono asking if i would like them
15:58:44 <supermop> could make the obi into Ties but seems like a shame to cut them up
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15:59:13 <supermop> don't know anyone whole would wear formal kimono and need an obi otherwise
16:03:03 <Samu> tried googling methods, i'm not sure what I need
16:03:43 <Wolf01> Usually a "method" is a function which doesn't return a value
16:04:11 <Wolf01> You should google programming school first
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16:15:37 <supermop> left thumb drive at home, no newgrf work today
16:19:48 <supermop> the triumph of laziness in industrial design
16:20:37 <supermop> i quite like the electric fedex trucks that we've had in the city for a few years
16:23:13 <supermop> apparently tesco have a few as well
16:31:36 <Samu> for all stations that can be used from the list of all_stations, create another list of stations, then sort them by rating
16:34:18 <Samu> i need a way to get the number of stations I'm working with
16:34:49 <Samu> instead of st1, st2, st3 etc..., i get that number
16:36:08 <Samu> so if it finds 10 stations or 15 stations, I wanna distribute cargo to 10 or 15
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16:52:22 <supermop> i guess i could play a game for purposes other than checking sprite alignment
16:55:49 <V453000> no, there is no return
16:55:51 <Samu> im a terrible programmer, bla bla
17:08:19 <Wolf01> Samu: try with stations_list.size()
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17:19:31 <supermop> wife's company offers 'ozone scented notebooks' as swag
17:19:48 <supermop> raises the question: who the hell enjoys the way ozone smells?
17:20:08 <supermop> people with fetish for electric arcing?
17:20:30 <supermop> i always feel like im about to die when i smell it
17:20:49 <supermop> like im about to get electrocuted or be in a fire
17:20:49 <Wolf01> I always smell my electric zapper when I charge it
17:21:04 <Gustavo6046> Larger grids should be broken into areas, where each has equal properties in all of the tiles pertaining to the area. Each area generates quickly a list of tiles that connects to any other area, if any, This is an alternate way of viewing a large graph; natural graphs, like slopes with integer heights and large 50m increments, are favored, due to the amount of repeating tiles.
17:22:10 <supermop> my dad had old G or O scale model train from the 50s, that was set up in basement of my grandparents house
17:22:26 <supermop> motors in the train put out ton of ozone
17:22:47 <Gustavo6046> supermop, is that why you play OpenTTD?
17:23:09 <supermop> no risk of getting electrocuted
17:23:12 <Gustavo6046> I only play because it's a fun, and also a very flexible game. I'm looking for a fun game that's easy to mod for YEARS.
17:24:41 <Gustavo6046> People should do motors whose byproduct is ozone, not CO₂. That would help!
17:25:19 <supermop> Gustavo6046: not if you are standing near the exhaust
17:25:39 <supermop> also it takes more energy to make ozone than you'd get out
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17:26:51 <supermop> " Exposure of 0.1 to 1 μmol/mol produces headaches, burning eyes and irritation to the respiratory passages.[17] Even low concentrations of ozone in air are very destructive to organic materials such as latex, plastics and animal lung tissue."
17:27:11 <supermop> CO2 sounds nicer to breath than O3 in that case
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17:38:22 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27928 /trunk/src (12 files) (2017-10-25 17:38:14 +0200 )
17:38:23 <DorpsGek> -Fix: [NewGRF] While executing random triggers, var 5F should include the new triggers.
17:38:24 <DorpsGek> -Fix: [NewGRF] Reset used random triggers only after all A123 chains have been resolved, so that all RA2 in all chains can test the shard triggers. This also includes multiple RA2 in the same A123 chain.
17:38:25 <DorpsGek> -Fix: [NewGRF] Industry random triggers are stored per tile, even when randomising the shared random bits of the parent industry.
17:38:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27929 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2017-10-25 17:38:19 +0200 )
17:38:29 <DorpsGek> -Cleanup: Remove unused Industry::random_triggers
17:40:02 <frosch123> LordAro: look, commits noone understands :)
17:44:31 <LordAro> frosch123: something mildly icky about all those waiting_trigger -> sprite resolve -> used_triggers blocks being duplicated like that, but...
17:47:55 <frosch123> they are all slightly different, since they are stored in structs or in the map array
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18:04:49 <Samu> Wolf01: i was able to create a list! i can also retrieve the number of items in the list
18:05:18 <Samu> to add a station I do: used_stations.Include(st);
18:05:37 <Samu> to get the number of stations it added, I do: uint no_stations = used_stations.Length();
18:05:57 <Samu> now, how do I sort it by rating?
18:09:59 <Samu> frosh, are u fixing bugs?
18:12:32 <Samu> aircraft goes from 2000 km/h to 321 km/h in 1 tick
18:14:23 <supermop> Samu: any behavior that was in TTO or TTD cannot really be called a bug, even if undesirable
18:15:50 <supermop> frosch123: no newgrf work today so haven't fixed long names yet, but other than that i think the grf is pretty functional
18:16:25 <supermop> just need to add a check to switch the door open side when drive side is set to left
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18:18:58 <frosch123> door sides on local trains are interesting
18:19:17 <frosch123> trams mostly have doors only on one side
18:19:23 <frosch123> subways can have them on both
18:20:05 <frosch123> once i was in a subway which opened doors on both sides in one station, and you could switch to different trains on either side
18:20:33 <frosch123> i never figured out whether people also passed through the train to get from the left to the right neighbout or vice versa
18:20:39 <frosch123> Cubey: i think that was singapore
18:20:50 <Cubey> Wow that sounds bizarre
18:22:13 <supermop> frosch123: a few termini here have that, some other stations used to have it
18:22:29 <supermop> there is also the 'spanish solution'
18:22:55 <supermop> where one side is for embarkation and the other of disembarkation
18:23:48 <frosch123> i did not see that, the doors were always first-out-second-in
18:23:49 <supermop> trams in australia, and LRV here in the US have cabs at both ends, so they can reverse without a loop.
18:24:09 <supermop> so they also have doors on both sides
18:24:35 <supermop> and where there are real platforms, sometimes it is an island, sometimes on the sides
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18:43:16 <frosch123> three tracks, the middle one is a terminus line, the outside ones are opposing directions of another line
18:43:43 <frosch123> so you can enter/leave the middle line to either direction of the outside line
18:43:52 <frosch123> while hte middle line only has one direction due to being teminus
18:44:27 <supermop> one track terminus seems odd
18:45:11 <frosch123> well, maybe terminus is the wrong name
18:45:25 <frosch123> but it's the airport-connector which ends at that station
18:45:44 <supermop> no, it is a terminus, just an odd choice from operational standpoint
18:45:46 <frosch123> and you can switch to the other line, which has two regular directions
18:46:03 <supermop> as you loose some flexibility in lay-up of trains
18:46:26 <supermop> any train at the terminus absolutely must depart before the next one arrives
18:46:53 <supermop> so if it is late to leave, it will block the following train,
18:47:12 <frosch123> well, they all come and go from/to the same direction
18:47:19 <supermop> and if it needs to go out of service for some reason, it cannot easily do so there
18:49:45 <supermop> operations and movements at termini is maybe the thing about trains i am most interested in
18:50:01 <supermop> don't usually care that much about the trains themselves
18:58:50 <Wolf01> <frosch123> once i was in a subway which opened doors on both sides in one station, and you could switch to different trains on either side <- happened to me on one of the terminals in Tokio
18:59:31 <Wolf01> I don't remember the exact line, and mine was the last run :P
19:05:16 <Samu> qsort.cpp is a microsoft file, the game uses microsoft code to sort arrays?
19:05:29 <Samu> what am i supposed to do
19:07:15 <Samu> i was following the sort code, and i ended up in qsort.cpp
19:08:27 <Alberth> qsort(): POSIX.1-2001, POSIX.1-2008, C89, C99, SVr4, 4.3BSD. <-- my man-page it existed in the C language in 1989 already
19:08:56 <Samu> // // qsort.cpp // // Copyright (c) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. // // Defines qsort(), a routine for sorting arrays.
19:09:04 <Alberth> ie, it's a standard library function afaik
19:10:19 <Samu> /* $Id: sort_func.hpp 24900 2013-01-08 22:46:42Z planetmaker $ */
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19:11:24 <Wolf01> Samu, what's the problem? If it's there just use it
19:11:52 <Samu> im trying to sort a list, i just don't know how
19:12:05 <Alberth> Samu: I only see a call to qsort, no #include of "qsort.cpp" or so
19:12:06 <Wolf01> Look at other usages of "sort"
19:12:12 <Samu> i list the stations in a StationList
19:12:42 <Samu> how do i sort them by a criteria, highest ranking first
19:14:26 <Alberth> first hit of "qsort example"
19:16:07 <Samu> I got Station. it's a struct?
19:16:31 <Alberth> but you can find that if you want
19:17:23 <Alberth> but qsort works in the same way no matter what type of data you have
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20:13:41 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: how exactly did that CETS thing work? The many rotations ... each vehicle has to be articulated into 3 parts and the middle part is looking at the relation of the other vehicles?
20:18:47 <V453000> ah he first part is assigned the actual vehicle graphics, and the curvature between the first/second and second/third part is queried to show intermediate sprites when going around a curve
20:18:55 <V453000> is it a problem to have it on the middle part?
20:19:00 <V453000> that makes most sense, no?
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20:22:07 <andythenorth> V453000: are you asking for yourself, or for a friend? o_O
20:22:44 <V453000> I'm seriously considering to use it
20:23:59 <V453000> I'm saving many sprites on the layering so I can afford to use something like that
20:24:05 <V453000> and I'm curious to try something new
20:28:17 <andythenorth> I tried the 10/8 thing in Horse 1 for similar reason
20:28:21 <andythenorth> but no regrets about deleting it
20:28:48 <V453000> you tried that 24 rotation thing?
20:29:00 <andythenorth> just 10/8 length using 3 part vehicles
20:29:21 <andythenorth> and also articulated 10/8 3-part vehicles
20:29:24 <V453000> that's fine I will be using just 8/8 parts anyway
20:29:31 * andythenorth learnt some stuff
20:29:33 <V453000> just wondering if I have to use 3-articulated vehicles for this hack
20:31:57 <andythenorth> you can do most of turning sprites without 3-part
20:32:03 <andythenorth> front and rear vehicles might have issues
20:37:30 <V453000> can I influence tilt flag by some callback?
20:37:44 <V453000> like if vehicles XYZ in consist, then use tilt?
20:39:11 <andythenorth> tilt is flag only afaik
20:39:18 <andythenorth> added it to Horse 2 this morning
20:39:46 <andythenorth> yeah no cb36 for it
20:45:02 <V453000> need to make some vehicles have tilt and some not then
20:45:07 <V453000> so if you get a combination, you get the bonus
20:46:09 <andythenorth> so you have to combine only tilt vehicles?
20:47:23 <V453000> idk, thing is that if I use 3-unit articulation for 8/8, it means I will do 2/8 + 3/8 + 2/8
20:47:35 <V453000> which are super short units, meaning they will have high speed in curves already
20:48:10 <V453000> and if I have multiple compatible track types, I can make some vehicles belong to a fast track type with moar speed allowance
20:48:34 <V453000> 260kmh on shortest curves is kind of retard mode though
20:53:14 <V453000> I was considering making 16/8 wagons
20:53:27 <V453000> but I also want 24/8 engines
20:53:31 <V453000> which doesn't do full tiles
20:54:35 <V453000> 8/8 will have to be fine
20:55:05 <andythenorth> I got about 260kmh, but not on shortest curves
20:55:48 <V453000> lawyered, I used a real photo for excuses
20:56:14 <andythenorth> you can never go back now
20:56:21 <andythenorth> 4/8 wagons are boss
20:57:03 <andythenorth> you could just drop the integer tiles obsession
20:57:06 <andythenorth> like, who cares?
20:58:27 <andythenorth> you should see my savegame :P
20:59:14 <Borg> fuuu :D I didnt played OpenTTD from years..
20:59:45 <Borg> actualy, with PBS.. u actually barely need anything other, right?
21:00:32 <andythenorth> total integer madness
21:00:54 <V453000> I'm firmly convinced that visually all the 4/8 and 6/8 looks absolutely amazing and not using it is a lack of variety in the set
21:01:07 <V453000> but I'm still going to be a little piece of shit and use 8/8
21:02:29 <V453000> 24/8 might fit a big boy 4-8-8-4
21:02:33 <V453000> from seeing screenshots
21:02:56 <V453000> oh yean not with tender
21:03:01 <V453000> that would be like 32/8
21:03:11 <V453000> 24/8 for slightly chibi version
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21:10:16 <frosch123> V453000: eddi draws the sprite with the first or last sprite depending on vehicle orientation
21:10:27 <frosch123> that is to minimise clipping with foundations, tunnels, bridges, ...
21:10:55 <V453000> ahhh that explains why the template looks like it does
21:11:29 <V453000> I guess in terms of the turning logic it doesn't really matter which I choose to do
21:11:35 <frosch123> if you put the sprties on the middle part, it will clip with foundations on southern tile
21:11:47 <V453000> but isn't the middle best because it reacts most properly to curves (is center) ?
21:12:20 <V453000> I guess it would eh if the articulated part is 2/8 or 3/8
21:12:38 <V453000> well ok I can try putting them on the ends, sounds like a good idea
21:12:51 <frosch123> possibly eddi does not just check the curvature, but also the positional differences
21:13:31 <frosch123> and then adjusts the sprite alignment so that it looks like the sprite is in the middle of the middle part
21:13:42 <frosch123> while actually drawn by the southern part
21:14:08 <V453000> I will attempt to get a template to work
21:14:23 <V453000> since all vehicles will be the same lengths and same articulated units, I guess it's "just" doing it once
21:21:42 <andythenorth> so In A Hot Country is currently best FIRS Economy
21:21:50 <andythenorth> in case anyone was wondering
21:25:51 <frosch123> V453000: actually, could you write a testgrf that does only draw the graphics with the middle part?
21:26:12 <V453000> I will definitely be making a barebones prototype as the first thing now
21:26:15 <frosch123> i wonder whether the clipping and alignment with the other parts couldn't just be done inside ottd
21:26:45 <V453000> collecting info for now, starting soon
21:27:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> is it a problem to have it on the middle part? <-- IIRC i have the sprite on the middle part on the map, and the first part in the depot (there was a thing about dragging that required this, may be fixed now)
21:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause> MB did some experiments with reducing clipping for the DBSet
21:28:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't really remember the outcome
21:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and of course he didn't share his code with me :p
21:30:34 <V453000> well I will do experiments
21:30:50 <V453000> is why I don't really want to super copy your code because I want to come to the conclusion and understand wtf
21:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the code is actually not complicated
21:32:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the offsets for the template are a giant pile of WTF, though
21:33:32 <V453000> that's pretty much what I thought
21:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i think the template could use slightly better angles, to make it look less jumpy in curves
21:36:16 <V453000> I think with antialiased 3D renders it will look a bit smoother
21:36:35 <V453000> also is it possible to do 5 articulated parts and 4 extra intermediate rotations?
21:36:57 <V453000> I'm probably not going to do that, just wondering
21:37:18 <frosch123> we can likely do 64 rotations
21:37:53 <frosch123> the orientation is essentially the positional difference between first and last part
21:38:12 <frosch123> the longer the distance, the more orientations,
21:38:19 <V453000> I think 32 is the reasonable maximum
21:38:23 <frosch123> though turns > 90° make it complicated
21:38:26 <V453000> but that's just from pure guessing
21:38:45 <V453000> oh yeah I wanted to test with 90deg turns on :D
21:38:50 <frosch123> i would think you need more orientations the longer the vehicel gets
21:39:06 <V453000> I will certainly only have 8/8
21:39:08 <frosch123> you only want the vehicle ends to jump that many pixels
21:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> my code basically ignores 90° turns
21:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> if it's not one of the 4 cases i test, it falls back to the default orientation
21:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd get too many edge cases to consider
21:46:51 <andythenorth> 90' turns are mandatory
21:48:13 <Wolf01> Pffft, just revert to 8 rotations if 90° turns are enabled, just to teach a lesson to the ones which want to keep that nasty thing on
21:48:20 <andythenorth> I played wrong for like 8 years, with 90' turned off
21:48:36 <andythenorth> next I should turn breakdowns back on
21:48:52 <V453000> not a bad idea Wolf01
21:49:00 <andythenorth> I only turned breakdowns off even because RVs can't find depots
21:49:16 <Wolf01> You don't build enough depots
21:49:32 <Wolf01> I always played with breakdowns (reduced)
21:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: but that just results in a huge set of people never even knowing there are more angles
21:50:41 <Wolf01> Good, and when they figure out from screens from me, V or mop that there are more angles, then they'll file bug reports which andy will close
21:50:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: more slugs...
21:51:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: how do you/other usually use vehicle ids in articulated vehicles?
21:51:34 <frosch123> do some/multiple parts use the same id?
21:51:35 <andythenorth> I have base IDs going up in 10s
21:51:37 <V453000> basically what I did with DOOM, right?
21:51:46 <V453000> I had 1/8 or 2/8 parts
21:51:46 <andythenorth> then articulated parts are base+1, base+2 etc
21:51:53 <V453000> and sliced sprites to fit them
21:51:56 <V453000> but you would add bending
21:51:58 <andythenorth> I use lots of IDs
21:52:06 <frosch123> ok, so each articulated part has their own id
21:52:16 <andythenorth> I'd have to check my code
21:52:57 <andythenorth> ok, 100% identical units reuse the ID
21:52:59 <frosch123> V453000: the sprites would be positioned so that they look like the original sprite
21:53:00 <andythenorth> anything else, new ID
21:53:05 <frosch123> there is no shfiting between the slices
21:53:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: what is a 100% identical unit?
21:54:08 <frosch123> do you build short wagons in chunks like old nuts?
21:54:21 <V453000> right, well shifting between normal non-bending units is easy
21:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc, in CETS i have the articulated parts as base, base+0x2000 and base+0x4000
21:54:29 <supermop> sounds like a philosophical question
21:54:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: better way to explain it
21:54:52 <andythenorth> every vehicle gets a unique ID
21:54:53 <LordAro> frosch123: so pango. which minimum version are you thinking of targetting?
21:55:01 <andythenorth> but some vehicles appear more than once in an articulated conisst
21:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also put all articulated parts as one ID, and calculate position in chain mod 3
21:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but in this case, most of the properties must be dynamic
21:57:14 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas with three distinct IDs you can have one part have the capacity, and the other parts 0, etc.
21:57:26 <frosch123> not sure whether to do the ellipsis stuff with pango or inside ottd
21:58:07 <LordAro> frosch123: ok, well oldoldstable has 1.30, and there have been no changes to pango_layout_* since then, so it's probably good
22:02:06 <frosch123> but the #ifdef object inheritance does not make it easy
22:04:28 <V453000> so would the latter thing you wrote frosch support the bending?
22:05:34 <frosch123> it's about drawing a single big sprite
22:05:43 <frosch123> it does not define how the sprite is choosen
22:06:15 <frosch123> so, would bendnig mean that you provide multiple bended sprites and can somehow decide how to concatenate them?
22:07:14 <frosch123> like ottd says, here are three parts _/¯ and the grf selects a single ∫ sprite?
22:08:09 <V453000> imagine I provide, say, 24 rotations
22:08:19 <V453000> would it cut the sprite and do the bending?
22:08:42 <frosch123> hmm, i guess i don't understand what you mean with "bending"
22:09:20 <frosch123> yes, that's what my paste is about
22:09:52 <V453000> that would be very interesting
22:10:03 <V453000> would it work in combination with the layering?
22:10:13 <frosch123> draw a single vehicle sprite with N rotations instead of separate sprites for M arituclated parts
22:10:33 <frosch123> V453000: all layers would have to use the same rotations
22:10:53 <frosch123> which probably makes sense :p
22:11:19 <frosch123> visual effects may be an open issue
22:11:23 <frosch123> where to spawn them
22:22:14 <V453000> well if you slice the sprite
22:22:25 <V453000> then when it's bending you wouldn't see the walls between "parts"
22:22:30 <V453000> so you would see holes in the train
22:22:52 <V453000> defining sprites for every articulated part individually would still be better
22:23:01 <V453000> honestly the graphical slicing is the least issue
22:23:15 <V453000> figuring out the shifts and stuff as Eddi said is going to be insane
22:23:22 <V453000> so if it just does that drawing logic by itself, it's golden
22:23:24 <frosch123> the thing i posted is for wagons, not for slugs
22:23:39 <V453000> what's the difference between wagons and slugs? :D
22:24:15 <frosch123> wagons do not bend within
22:24:32 <frosch123> a wagon is straight from start of wagon to end of wagon
22:24:39 <frosch123> a slug bends in every place
22:25:28 <V453000> so you give 8/8 sprite
22:25:40 <V453000> and it slices it, but it always draws it as the full 8/8 sprite
22:25:50 <V453000> with less glitching because it knows the positions more precisely
22:30:59 <frosch123> upper picture is the current default: ottd draws three sprited (red) for three articulated part
22:31:36 <frosch123> bottom picture would be the new thing: ottd tells endpoints of wagon, and grf provides single sprite (red) mathcing the distance
22:32:23 <frosch123> thought argueable the blue points may need some adjusting
22:32:55 <V453000> so it would look totally off the tracks sometimes? :D
22:33:20 <frosch123> well, grf defines where front and back axes are
22:33:31 <frosch123> they stay on track, middle part is inbetween
22:34:04 <frosch123> but this is no slug 1/8 behaviour
22:34:21 <frosch123> unless you make the red sprite look bendy in itself somehow
22:34:40 <frosch123> but that would also only follow some approximation of the track
22:36:04 <V453000> sounds very interesting
22:41:54 <Wolf01> Yep, so you really need to define the real boogies positions
22:42:35 <Wolf01> It would be cool to see how it looks a DDA40x
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22:44:40 <frosch123> is that one particulary long?
22:46:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
22:52:56 <supermop> '2nd most powerful locomotive ever' seems like it can't be true
22:53:50 <supermop> maybe 2nd most powerful single unit diesel, but it seems like it would be trivially easy for an AC locomotive to be more powerfull
22:54:13 <Wolf01> The most powerful one seem a multiple unit gas turbine
22:55:01 <Wolf01> "The DDA40X is the most powerful single-unit diesel-electric locomotive ever built"
23:01:15 <supermop> that i believe but the page called it '2nd most powerful locomotive' presumably of any type
23:01:37 <supermop> the gas turbine was 8500 hp,
23:02:00 <supermop> i find it hard to believe there is no electric more powerful than that
23:02:51 <frosch123> tgv as emu has more than 16k hp :p
23:04:58 <frosch123> wiki lists a shinkansen with about 25k hp
23:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it'll be hard to find a (decently sized) electric engine with less than 8k hp
23:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> where "decent size" is 4 axles, 84t
23:09:05 <frosch123> i think you are 30% off
23:09:35 <supermop> this thing is over 12k
23:09:43 <frosch123> regular single-unit engines are listed at about 4MW, which is about 6k hp
23:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> well, maybe... it's been like 3 years since i looked at engine stats :p
23:10:47 <supermop> frosch123: i believe that most electrics are weaker than the DDA40X or the GTEL turbines, but find it absurd to state that all electrics are weaker
23:10:53 <LordAro> frosch123: of course, my icu is too new to even compile the split layouters :)
23:11:48 <frosch123> LordAro: what distro do you use? i was surprised that even debian unstable has an old enough icu
23:12:42 <frosch123> LordAro: also, it does not compile in general :p
23:13:08 <LordAro> frosch123: yeah, but not because of missing includes :p
23:13:17 <frosch123> i just commited a whatever state to make room for the randombits thingie
23:38:22 <Samu> I can't use QSortT or GSortT, i fail.. there's always something missing, grrr
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