IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-23
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08:39:34 <joseph222> I am testing it on a app
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09:38:53 <V453000> release tonight motherfuckers :>
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10:37:56 <FLHerne> joseph222: It is, yes
10:39:31 <FLHerne> (also the v1->2 comparison)
10:39:31 <V453000> yes because dropbox is a piece of trash
10:39:42 <V453000> I'll probably fix it someday
10:39:57 <V453000> for now publishing BRIX is top priority
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11:46:07 <V453000> 8 pages of bullshit text
11:47:02 <V453000> big BRIX blog article
11:48:23 <andythenorth> not on coop site
11:49:25 <V453000> evening will bring shitstorm
11:49:35 <V453000> BRIX flooding openttd universe
11:51:23 <V453000> what was the thing which was stripping newgrfs of 32bpp and EZ?
12:37:18 <planetmaker> V453000, iirc it was grfcodec
12:38:07 <V453000> thank you :) will try to fiddle
12:51:13 <Samu> looking for english help
12:51:38 <Samu> I want to shorten "distance travelled during flight"
12:51:50 <Samu> distance flawn? flewed? flown?
12:54:42 <Samu> "distance travelled since last takeoff" is too much to put on vehicle detail window
12:57:12 <Samu> well, there's "breakdowns since last service"
12:57:20 <Samu> not short as well, but ...
12:57:58 <LordAro> although that would only replaced "travelled"
12:58:32 <Samu> "distance flown since last takeoff"?
12:58:46 <Wolf01> It depends on what do you want to tell to the user: "distance travelled during flight" is the total distance? You don't tell much about it; "distance travelled since last takeoff" is more understandable
12:59:03 <LordAro> maybe get rid of flown/travelled entirely?
12:59:43 <LordAro> the word is a bit redundant - it's a vehicle, of course it's travelled to move any distance
12:59:44 <V453000> "distance since last takeoff" seems to make sense to me
13:02:43 <peter1139> current flight distance
13:06:43 <Samu> STR_VEHICLE_INFO_RELIABILITY_BREAKDOWNS_DISTANCE :{BLACK}Reliability: {LTBLUE}{COMMA}% {BLACK}Breakdowns since last service: {LTBLUE}{COMMA} {BLACK}Current flight distance: {LTBLUE}{COMMA}{NBSP}tile{P "" s}
13:08:48 <Samu> STR_VEHICLE_INFO_RELIABILITY_BREAKDOWNS
13:09:01 <Samu> STR_VEHICLE_INFO_RELIABILITY_BREAKDOWNS_DISTANCE
13:10:03 <peter1139> It was a suggestion.
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13:42:33 <Samu> there is a flaw with this counter :(
13:42:53 <Samu> horizontal/vertical counting is faster than diagonal
13:49:45 <__ln__> or 'flight', i guess it can be assumed that an aircraft flies by default
13:50:21 <Samu> the counter resets to 0 immediately after touching the ground... hmm
13:50:33 <__ln__> or how about 'distance flown'
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13:51:16 <__ln__> but i'm not a native englishman, and i rarely even drink tea
13:52:19 <Samu> i still have to see what the heck happens with the counter when the aircraft is outside the map
13:54:55 <Samu> there's virtual coordinates stuff which I really don't get how it works
13:58:44 <Samu> i like the idea of showing it in red if it travells too much
13:58:57 <Samu> considering my patch and all, makes sense
14:13:53 <Samu> there is no start take off for helicopters?
14:15:31 <peter1139> Helicopters are rubbish
14:15:39 <peter1139> I was fixing something but didn't
14:15:44 <peter1139> Usual for my patches, I suppose.
14:15:57 <Samu> AircraftEventHandler_TakeOff
14:16:03 <Samu> this should suffice for both
14:16:46 <Samu> i'm still trying to figure when it's the best time to reset the counter
14:17:12 <Samu> and when it's the best time to start counting and when to stop counting
14:18:59 <Samu> when the sound starts playing, the counter resets to 0
14:19:13 <Samu> seems like a good time to reset
14:21:37 <V453000> it seems to just remove both 32bpp and EZ for me
14:21:45 <V453000> can I make a 8bpp + EZ newgrf with this?
14:23:35 <Samu> damn it, helicopters are a difficult specimen
14:35:01 <Samu> it's all too confusing for helicopters
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15:39:34 <andythenorth> supermop_: think it will make it? o_O
15:40:02 <supermop_> i was debating the 100 quid level yesterday when it launched
15:40:25 <supermop_> only hope is to drop enough hints to my wife re
15:40:43 <andythenorth> I'd buy it, then leave it in cupboard
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16:08:41 <supermop_> 16px wide curtain side for cargo tram
16:09:06 <supermop_> thinking of taking every 4th 1px vetical strip and scrunching them to one side
16:09:33 <supermop_> but idk if asymetrical opening will bother me
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16:56:44 <supermop_> needs dark creases in the scrunch
16:58:21 <supermop_> folds hang out a bit when open
16:58:45 <Samu> i managed to find where exactly an helicopter starts raising up
16:59:38 <Samu> it's a bit messed up, but it's here if (amd.flag & AMED_HELI_RAISE) {
16:59:48 <Samu> if (--u->cur_speed == 32) {
17:00:08 <Samu> when speed matches 32, it starts raising up
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17:07:20 <supermop_> also not sure i need gangways on those cargo tram cars
17:12:26 <supermop_> hmm 1 shade darker not enough
17:12:57 <supermop_> might lighten the bumps of the folds
17:20:21 <supermop_> problem is the opening is big enough now i have to draw mail bags in there
17:20:40 <supermop_> slash beer kegs and bottles
17:32:16 <Gustavo6046> Oathfinder works :D
17:32:37 <supermop_> aol+yahoo branded pathfinder
17:39:33 <supermop_> yeah. when aol and yahoo merged in preparation of selling to verizon, they changed the name of the joint company to Oath
17:52:34 <Samu> what does {NBSP} mean, I forgot
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17:58:24 <Samu> ok, still not sure what it does
18:01:22 <juzza1> it prevents line breaking at the space character
18:01:25 <Alberth> it looks like a space, but it's not
18:01:53 <Alberth> so sentences cannot be broken at that point
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18:32:20 <Gustavo6046> I have a bit field, where:
18:32:28 <Gustavo6046> • left two bits are X;
18:32:33 <Gustavo6046> • right two bits are Y.
18:33:05 <Gustavo6046> Being X and Y the normalized downhill direction of a slope, where:
18:33:57 <Gustavo6046> • 00 is now the same 0 instead, and now it works, so ignore me.
18:34:18 <Alberth> wouldn't 11 be 2-complement -1 in 2 bit ?
18:34:42 <Gustavo6046> Alberth, I'm using just three numbers
18:34:53 <Gustavo6046> I'm comparing the bits, and doing a & b != 0
18:35:06 <Gustavo6046> I want to know if a & b != 0 gets whether a road can be built between two slopes.
18:35:57 <Gustavo6046> So, e.g. a = [-1, 0] and b = [-1, 1] does 100 and 110.
18:36:04 <Gustavo6046> Or rather, 0100 and 0110
18:36:24 <Gustavo6046> Oh wait, 01 is -1 and 10 is 1, I swapped :P
18:36:33 <Gustavo6046> Not important, it's symmetrical.
18:36:51 <Alberth> but wouldn't int x:2 not get expanded as 2 complement? I wonder
18:36:58 <Samu> so now there's aircraft range and distance flown
18:37:25 <Gustavo6046> x and y must be between -1 and 1
18:38:03 <Samu> what are the pros of aircraft range?
18:38:14 <Alberth> "too bad, I had hoped it would"
18:38:22 <Gustavo6046> Slopes are a direction; directions are normalized to a unit vector where -1 <= n <= 1 and n in {x, y}.
18:38:56 <Samu> slopes aren't a direction, they're a big mess of stuff
18:40:28 <Samu> i worked on slope directions when working on river tiles :(
18:40:32 <Gustavo6046> that's why I clear the SLOPE_ELEVATED and SLOPE_STEE bits.
18:40:38 <Samu> trying to make friendly rivers
18:41:50 <Samu> during map generation, try to make lock friendly rivers
18:42:10 <Samu> during town growth, try to make lock friendly town bridges
18:42:37 <Samu> i ended up fattening rivers, not really what I wanted to do :/
18:43:08 <Samu> which aircraft set got aircraft ranges?
18:43:23 <Samu> i wanna see how distance flown + aircraft range interact with each other
18:46:05 <Samu> Range: 96 tiles, Distance flown: 103 tiles
18:49:26 <Gustavo6046> Samu, it's radius flown
18:49:31 <Gustavo6046> so I guess you half the distance
18:49:50 <Gustavo6046> if the range is in a radial circle
18:49:58 <Gustavo6046> and the aircraft reached the edge
18:50:07 <Samu> i count every time the aircraft changes tile coordinates, i'm not sure what aircraft range do
18:50:29 <Samu> i think it counts the distance between the 2 airports
18:50:52 <Gustavo6046> Samu, you should instead count to X everytime it moves in X
18:50:58 <Gustavo6046> and count to Y everytime it moves in Y
18:51:12 <Gustavo6046> then the distance is sqrt(X*X + Y*Y)
18:51:19 <Gustavo6046> idk if Squirrel has pow
18:52:27 <Samu> i got a problem with identifying coordinates outside map
18:52:55 <Samu> it uses virtual coordinates when outside the map borders, and i have no idea how they work
18:53:11 <Samu> i can't calculate distances
18:53:20 <Gustavo6046> Samu, I had that too
18:53:23 <Samu> i can only count how many times it has moved from a tile to another
18:53:25 <Gustavo6046> so I did a TileVec class for coordinate
18:53:38 <Gustavo6046> it would always turn n < -1 to n = 0
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19:50:43 <Samu> do aircraft have a weight concept in them?
19:51:05 <Samu> the more loaded it is, the least it accelerates
19:56:39 <Alberth> the biggest problem is getting enough lift
19:57:01 <Alberth> but you obviously have that when it flies :p
19:58:16 <V453000> hi guys, does anybody remember how exactly should I use grfstrip? it tells me to give it input and output, that much is clear, but then it says [<depth> <zoom>]
19:58:22 <Samu> i was thinking of something like ... making the big capacity planes accelerate slower than the lower capacity ones
19:58:27 <V453000> how do I figure out the syntax and values it wants for the depth and zoom?
19:58:37 <Samu> depending always on how much is loaded, of course
19:59:09 <V453000> also can I get 8bpp with EZ from grfstrip? aka remove only 32bpp x4 and 32bpp x1
19:59:57 <supermop_> samu - planes in game are pretty close to max speed by the time they are in the air
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20:00:45 <supermop_> acceleration doesn't really have much gameplay effect for planes in game
20:01:05 <Samu> wanted it to be much like how trains do
20:01:05 <V453000> Alberth: yes but yeah it tells me that :)
20:01:20 <supermop_> also, as Alberth says, so long as it can reach take off speed it flies
20:01:27 <Samu> some engines take a long time to reach their maximum speed
20:02:02 <supermop_> Samu: that's probably the wrong approach - acceleration is also fairly inconsequential for planes IRL
20:02:04 <Alberth> V depth looks like 32bpp 8bpp
20:02:17 <Alberth> zoom[] = { "normal", "zi4", "zi2", "zo2", "zo4", "zo8" };
20:02:29 <supermop_> even heavy cargo plains will reach several hundred kmh in a few seconds
20:02:45 <Samu> oh well, there goes my logic
20:03:01 <supermop_> the biggest issue in 'balancing' weight of planes is rather how much fuel they burn
20:03:21 <supermop_> heavy load = need more fuel to take off and fly
20:04:11 <supermop_> to a lesser extent (not important for openttd) heavy load = less weight allowance for fuel = less range
20:04:14 <V453000> ok so I write grfstrip.exe BRIX.grf BRIX-8bpp.grf 32bpp zi4 ?
20:04:37 <V453000> well it did something
20:04:54 <V453000> ah so I tell what to keep
20:04:57 <frosch123> i think grfstrip command line is broken
20:05:12 <Samu> my own laws of physics differ from that of real world :(
20:05:26 <supermop_> Samu: if you want to do something that operates on the load of aircraft, it would be more logical to have running cost increase with load weight
20:05:36 <frosch123> it misses some "i++"
20:05:58 <supermop_> but planes in game (and most airliners IRL) pretty much always fly full
20:06:46 <Samu> increased running costs, again
20:06:56 <V453000> how do I tell if it also removed x1 8bpp from the grf ... it should never do that, right?
20:07:09 <frosch123> yes, it won'T do that
20:07:16 <frosch123> what resolutions do you have?
20:07:32 <frosch123> 8bpp 1x, 8bpp 4x, 32bpp 1x, 32bpp 4x, more?
20:07:38 <V453000> it did keep x4 so it should work
20:07:51 <V453000> 8bpp x1, 8bpp x4, 32bpp x1, 32bpp x4
20:08:11 <V453000> seems functional :) cool
20:08:13 <supermop_> samu, i don't even know if aircraft in game have a power property
20:08:42 <frosch123> so you want: grfstrip bla.grf bla-8bpp.grf 8bpp zi4
20:08:53 <frosch123> but if will fail if you have more zoomlevels
20:10:47 <Samu> aircraft don't have weight, from what I can find
20:13:01 <Samu> they have no power either
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20:14:10 <Samu> only rail and road vehicles have weight
20:14:14 <Samu> ships and aircraft don't have
20:14:54 <andythenorth> I have wondered about ship physics
20:14:58 <andythenorth> but I think it's negligible gain
20:18:51 <Samu> aircraft have image_index, cost_factor, running_cost, subtype, sfx, acceleration, max_speed, mail_capacity, passenger_capacity, max_range
20:19:50 <supermop_> samu: for the purposes of the game, there is no need to have those
20:20:19 <supermop_> speed is determined by thrust, weight (somewhat) and drag (a lot)
20:20:51 <supermop_> if it is important that plane 1 goes 300kmh and plane 2 goes 600 kmh
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20:21:32 <supermop_> there is not really much need to do something more complex than just giving what the final max speed should be
20:22:01 <Samu> will take a loog at acceleration
20:22:20 <supermop_> rather than trying to approximate drag and thrust such that the result is the speed you want
20:22:36 <supermop_> acceleration is only really relevant when taking off
20:23:05 <supermop_> and OpenTTD doesn't have or need airplanes that don't make it off the runway because they are overweight
20:24:08 <supermop_> because again, the capacity is the max weight a plane can take off with
20:24:35 <supermop_> a plane can't be too heavy to take off because it would be over capacity
20:25:14 <supermop_> whether a plane needs half of the runway or all of the runway isn't really simulated by game
20:25:56 <supermop_> you could make plane crashes at short runways dependant on plane weight - but the plane size property already handles that
20:26:49 <Samu> plane crashing is too drastic for balancing... :(
20:27:09 <Samu> i don't like the idea of crashing to make them fair
20:35:25 <supermop_> what is unfair about planes? every player can buy them
20:36:48 <supermop_> if you want to nerf particular planes, pretty much range, speed, and running costs are the only aspects that will have a noticeable effect relative to capacity
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21:14:42 <Alberth> latter looks good frosch123
21:15:51 <frosch123> thanks for checking
21:16:57 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps also add texts for the parameters in the help?
21:17:07 <Alberth> avoid looking it up again from the source :p
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21:17:34 <frosch123> like names for zoom levels?
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22:12:08 <Samu> question, how did you come up with those base acceleration values in engines.h table?
22:17:52 <Samu> let's make yate haugan acceleration = 5
22:18:33 <supermop_> Samu: certainly chris sawyer just made them up to feel right
22:20:20 <Samu> hmm yate haugan acceleration is lower, hmm hmm :) but it's still a fixed amount
22:20:31 <Samu> accelerates at the same rate
22:21:20 <Samu> this game needs a realistic acceleration for aircraft? :p
22:22:19 <supermop_> 'realistic' would be almost instantaneous relative to other vehicles
22:22:30 <Samu> okay, not that kind of realistic
22:23:01 <supermop_> also you run the risk of then making only very very long flights desirable
22:23:19 <supermop_> where aircraft already heavily favor long flights
22:23:28 <Samu> was thinking of acceleration rate slowing down the closer it gets to max speed
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22:28:05 <supermop_> still though, a 747 flying 1000 tiles will spend more time at a high speed than a embraer 135 flying 50 tiles
22:36:45 <Samu> it took 676 tiles to reach max speed, on yate haugan
22:37:59 <Samu> seems like for each x acceleration, the cur_speed increases x per tick
22:38:31 <Samu> this is all interesting, but i'm not sure if this is what I want to do
22:38:50 <supermop_> what do you want to do?
22:39:50 <Samu> not sure if I really want to touch acceleration
22:40:13 <Samu> if i want the more cargo loaded, the slower it accelerates
22:41:08 <supermop_> with aircraft, you cannot build more, or more powerful turbines for a given plane
22:41:35 <supermop_> a plane will always have the same 'power' and the same capacity
22:42:27 <Samu> what you're saying is that it's not how real physics work
22:45:00 <Samu> something that punts a dent on aircraft profits
22:45:19 <Gustavo6046> The difference is the technology: Embraer, being from Brazil, automatically advantages from high technology index. Unfortunately my country is still poor.
22:46:14 <Samu> the acceleration thing seems to only promote long long distances
22:46:28 <supermop_> it is not like a train where the player makes a choice about the loading ratio compared to the motive power
22:46:53 <supermop_> planes pretty much always fly at 100% loaded
22:47:08 <V453000> Ah I guess musa needs python 2.6
22:47:55 <supermop_> so there is no real reason to make planes that are 50% full cheaper or faster than planes that are 100% full
22:49:23 <Samu> place accelerates to max speed as it usually do, but then it loses speed if it travels too much
22:49:42 <Samu> akin to my breakdown idea, but instead of breaking down, it decelerates gradually
22:51:42 <Samu> something like... travel 500 tiles at max speed, then the rest, gradually slow down
22:52:32 <Gustavo6046> Samu, aerodynamics boi
22:53:14 <supermop_> Samu: what behavior do you want to affect
22:53:30 <supermop_> not effect, but affect
22:53:43 <supermop_> what change in player behavior do you want to create
22:54:10 <Samu> make them use aircraft without them being retardedly profitable
22:54:34 <supermop_> profit is probably a weak motivator for many players then
22:55:06 <Samu> hmm no one likes to use aircraft on competitive servers, i'd like to change this fact
22:55:51 <supermop_> i never use aircraft because 1) it is boring, 2) plenty of occupation on other thing to ever get around to building airports
22:56:16 <supermop_> 3) often soon have plenty of money without aircraft, so don't need them for funing
22:56:29 <Cubey> I think most people who play openttd are mostly interested in the trains
22:56:52 <supermop_> so people are largely discouraged from using aircraft already
22:57:05 <supermop_> profit is largely not interesting in the game
22:57:11 <Cubey> Personally I find playing with the aircraft not very satisfying...not much challenge, nothing really interesting you can do with them
22:57:52 <supermop_> if you are competing to move the most cargo, or to grow a city largest, aircraft do not provide much of a competitive advantage anyway
22:58:30 <supermop_> OpenTTD is difficult because it trying to approximate a scale where both trains and planes are applicable
22:59:23 <Samu> infrastructure maintenance costs on aircraft are way too drastic for small maps
22:59:55 <supermop_> Samu: the infrastructure cost was supposed to be a tool to balance out the profitability of aircraft
23:00:10 <_dp_> I solved aircraft balance on our servers by disabling large aircrafts
23:00:23 <_dp_> small ones are still decently profitable but loose to trains
23:00:55 <Samu> my main issue is indeed the big planes
23:01:02 <Samu> small planes, i noticed they're fine
23:01:02 <supermop_> aircraft ranges are another tool, but default will not have those
23:01:16 <supermop_> and again, bigger plane = bigger range
23:01:48 <_dp_> and does nothing to balance profit
23:02:45 <supermop_> _dp_: it was less to balance profit, more to just force some more consideration in route planning beyond 'build two airports as far apart as possible'
23:03:33 <supermop_> in real life, a380 doesn't print money because people want certain flexibility in flights, so you cannot have every take off slot from LHR be an A380 to PVD every 2 minutes
23:04:00 <supermop_> OpenTTD cannot provide that self-balancing
23:04:19 <_dp_> there is a reasonable distance limit, you need fast income when starting
23:04:50 <_dp_> it's like 1000 tiles but whatever)
23:05:00 <Cubey> Any balance in openttd is opted-into by the user
23:05:15 <supermop_> range also can only make sense for one map size
23:05:24 <_dp_> Cubey, it doesn't work like that on competitive servers :p
23:06:02 <supermop_> if you are playing a map of the UK at 4k^2, any range limit at all will not make sense
23:06:04 <Cubey> That's why competition servers only reflect a very small subset of all the styles of gameplay used by players
23:06:44 <supermop_> _dp_: i have never seen a competitive server i wanted to play on
23:07:36 <Cubey> I see openttd as being in basically the same category as minecraft
23:07:49 <Cubey> There are all sorts of games that can be played within the game
23:07:59 <Cubey> Goal servers, city builder, etc.
23:08:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
23:08:16 <Cubey> But there are many many more "non-game" ways to play the game
23:08:31 <_dp_> supermop_, well, not everyone likes competitive play I know
23:08:37 <Samu> I was medling with this idea... instead of promoting a breakdown aka limit speed to 321 km/h, make it gradually lose speed after x tiles
23:08:46 <supermop_> i wouldn't mind competition
23:09:15 <Samu> but it makes no sense, or yada yada...
23:09:25 <supermop_> but servers always have things like, newgrf settings that make no sense, or no newgrfs at all
23:09:40 <supermop_> or no cdist, so passenger networks make no sense
23:09:59 <supermop_> or very narrow goals
23:10:06 <Cubey> There are no regularly operating servers that are configured remotely like how I have my single player
23:10:11 <_dp_> among competitive ones I'm sure we have the best ones on CityMania xD
23:10:27 <_dp_> cdist is like a gs of it's own, it's hard to combine it with any other goal
23:10:33 <Cubey> It is strange to me how there are practically no servers with a moderate amount of newgrfs and the vanilla/stable version of the server
23:11:27 <_dp_> It's very hard to configure vanilla
23:11:46 <Samu> i only care about vanilla
23:11:51 <supermop_> like a plain silicon valley GS with Firs and a nice train set would be fun and competitive
23:11:57 <_dp_> newgrfs can at lest do something about gameplay
23:12:11 <Cubey> I mean, the configs I use would never work for a multiplayer server, because I limit my behavior through choice rather than restrictive settings
23:12:26 <Cubey> E.g. you could never leave the max station spread set to maximum on a public server, it would be abused too much
23:12:47 <_dp_> well, you can set some rules about it
23:13:04 <_dp_> but better to be coded ofc
23:13:35 <_dp_> but sadly some things can't be coded so still need rules, mods, etc
23:13:36 <Cubey> Even stuff like cargodist has problems
23:13:58 <Cubey> Since cargo only appears with destinations that the network graph already knows are connected
23:14:17 <Cubey> You can "game" the system by only building point to point routes
23:14:49 <Cubey> There's no way to force players to build "realistic" routes under cargodist, it's just something they have to choose to do
23:15:10 <supermop_> Cubey: exactly, in a city builder system, even with cdist on, you can set up your routes so it is only possible for any passenger in your network to get dumped at your city
23:16:41 <Samu> i feel that i need to do something about aircraft :(
23:17:06 <Cubey> And I don't see any of that as a problem, because I prefer open-ended sandbox-like games anyway
23:17:19 <Cubey> And I think a lot of people who play simulation games do
23:17:33 <_dp_> well, what's the point of cdist on competitive server then if it can be cheated anyway?
23:18:07 <Samu> cargo dist, i rather call it cargo with personality
23:18:37 <Samu> hi, I'm coal, and i want to go to that train, not this one
23:19:13 <_dp_> and btw, there is no way to force players to build "realistic" because no one knows wtf does "realistic" mean in openttd :p
23:20:32 <_dp_> everyone builds whatever he likes and calls it "realistic"
23:20:58 <supermop_> _dp_: because building passenger networks without cdist is incredibly frustrating
23:21:51 <Cubey> I'm working on some scripts to pull data from the GS API through the admin port and help me analyze my cargodist graph
23:22:02 <_dp_> Samu, btw, as for breakdonws I think as long as they're random they're bs. I disabled breakdowns for planes where it matters (aka where it's a best way to start).
23:22:10 <ST2> damn, and now that I'm out of popcorns :(
23:22:25 <Samu> when i hear of cargo dist, i always think about how cargo is distributed to the nearby stations
23:22:34 <Cubey> But I'm realizing that even with access to a lot of information I can slice and dice, it's not immediately clear what my goal should even be
23:23:48 <Samu> i prefer breakdowns enabled for aircraft, but aircraft crashes disabled
23:24:06 <Samu> i just wish big planes couldn't just land on small airports
23:26:05 <supermop_> i once tried a polish GS that tried to control town growth by type of passenger service provided.
23:26:50 <supermop_> encouraged growth in cities that were hubs of the network
23:27:30 <Samu> ST2: give me ideas for aircraft
23:28:04 <Samu> so ppl want to play with breakdowns disabled and aircraft
23:28:18 <supermop_> Samu: some people do
23:28:32 <supermop_> some people never touch aircraft
23:28:48 <ST2> actually, on SP people can play with the settings they want ^^
23:28:56 <supermop_> aircraft breakdowns are weird as is
23:29:17 <_dp_> oh, right, I meant crashes, but whatever, another random bs
23:29:29 <Cubey> Yeah the default aircraft breakdown behavior never made any sense to me
23:29:37 <_dp_> basically on competitive server it mean if crashed first year -> restart
23:29:47 <ST2> MP servers, and specially the ones with goals, try to balance things to all cargo types/ways to trasnport it be more or less equal
23:29:51 <Cubey> Crashes are a huge pain so I always disabled them, but at least that corresponds to something I can imagine actually happening
23:30:22 <Samu> when it's disabled, noobs will use big planes on small airports... I wish they wouldn't do it
23:31:00 <supermop_> ST2: i never understood 'balancing' like that though - if everything is balanced to be equivalent, what is the point of choosing any particular thing
23:31:31 <supermop_> it makes more sense for the game to have optimal uses for certain things
23:31:33 <Cubey> There have been a number of proposed ideas in the past having to do with improving the layouts of airports and making a bigger difference in throughput for the larger layouts
23:31:41 <ST2> it's where the human factor comes up
23:31:54 <Cubey> Which would be a good reason to use the big ones instead of just whatever has the smallest footprint
23:31:59 <Cubey> But none of that has ever made it in trunk
23:31:59 <_dp_> Samu, usually it's pro's who do that not noobs, noobs buy big airports, one plane and go bankrupt :p
23:32:00 <Wolf01> It's the blizzard syndrome
23:32:10 <supermop_> rather than balancing so that for any route length there is no difference between a bus or a 747
23:33:00 <_dp_> but as long as game balanced for it it's fine to do whatever
23:33:08 <supermop_> Samu: i think "make the game harder for 'noobs' and easier for expects" is the opposite of balancing
23:33:29 <_dp_> like, sure, big planes with small airports are the best start on our tropic cb blitz, so what?
23:33:41 <Samu> a big airplane on a small aircraft always gets me on my nerves :(
23:34:17 <Samu> if i disable aircraft crashes, they get away with it
23:34:23 <supermop_> maybe they have thrust reversers
23:34:34 <Samu> if i enable crashes, there may be accidental crashes early game, ruining it
23:34:44 <supermop_> Samu: punishing players is probably not fun
23:35:05 <_dp_> idk what ST2 means by balancing cargo, but for me balancing usually means don't let stupid shit to be the best way of doing smth xD
23:36:44 <Samu> like 2 airports in the 2 corners
23:37:10 <ST2> supermop_: you said don't like goal servers - probably never tried the one using BusyBee ^^
23:37:29 <Samu> slowing them down past x tiles, goes against the idea of what aircraft is
23:37:35 <ST2> and it's goal based to restart when goal is reached and get a new map, to new players join and build
23:37:42 <_dp_> have you fixed your bb to not be a p2p truck fest?
23:37:43 <supermop_> ST2: i sometimes play busy bee SP, its a bit too random for me
23:37:58 <ST2> that's the magic of it xD
23:38:10 <supermop_> _dp_: BB is always p2p biased
23:38:39 <Samu> balancing cargo is making coal suck
23:38:40 <_dp_> idk, I think with a lot of big goals it can favor networks or some sort
23:38:45 <supermop_> it is fun trying to rework a p2p train route to become a network as targets change in SP though
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23:38:57 <supermop_> but it would always be easier to spam trucks
23:39:23 <supermop_> Samu: don't use default cargo
23:39:27 <_dp_> coal is only good as a starting cargo
23:39:30 <ST2> BB gets resumed to short tracks when cash income is stable
23:39:32 <Cubey> "Balance" to me means that coal is stronker than most cargos because it also has no secondary
23:39:58 <supermop_> in vanilla coal just goes to black hole at power plant
23:40:11 <Samu> i compared coal to grain/livestock combo and I was a bit surprised by the results
23:40:12 <supermop_> there is no other complex chain
23:40:47 <Samu> with the advantage of goods being produced
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23:41:25 <_dp_> Samu, goods pay better than coal even if you don't count livestock
23:41:35 <Cubey> So the farm->factory chain is actually well balanced with coal
23:41:59 <_dp_> but iron ore chain is probably even better
23:42:20 <Samu> iron one feels disappointing
23:42:25 <Cubey> That means more cost of overhead though
23:42:30 <Samu> yeah, it has that potential, but still disappointing
23:42:55 <Cubey> I tend to look at wood right away because it's almost as good as coal and also causes goods to be produced
23:43:11 <_dp_> speaking of disappointing, if there decent cities pax beats everything :p
23:43:27 <_dp_> or if cities are allowed to grow for that matter
23:47:11 <_dp_> saber did it with pax mostly and goods iirc, da with goods, me with iron ore
23:47:35 <_dp_> ST2, nah, no players - no complaints xD
23:48:00 <ST2> well, only happens with W10 with latest update
23:48:19 <ST2> mine still not updated so, no self complaints xD
23:48:35 <_dp_> and mine is not even windows xD
23:48:54 <ST2> that's why I asked about players... not you :P
23:49:28 <_dp_> psst, I have windows too, just don't tell anybody
23:50:15 <_dp_> and compiling cmclient ofc
continue to next day ⏵
