IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-21
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04:52:06 <supermop> gotta say, my fake articulated z class in fake ptv livery is pretty sharp
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05:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you're so fake...
05:53:21 <supermop> late (or early) in germany
05:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> my work cycle and my sleep cycle don't seem to align
06:43:54 <Afdal> Quick question: where do I stick my original TTD graphics again?
06:46:57 <Afdal> oh it's just .openttd/baseset isn't it
06:47:16 <Afdal> nvm found the readme :)
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11:30:17 <andythenorth> do the two types look different?
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11:39:00 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat, but what's the gameplay (or real world) difference between them?
11:40:01 <andythenorth> the problem is that frosch couldn’t tell one from the other
11:40:28 <andythenorth> hopefully that’s fixed now
11:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i think that is exactly relevant. because if the players don't have the mindset that they're different things, no amount of pixels will make them able to distinguish them
11:41:22 <andythenorth> interesting point
11:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like a japanese person trying to distinguish R from L
11:41:50 <andythenorth> the difference is still irrelevant, because they’re functionally identical
11:42:28 <andythenorth> if one has the kind of brain that doesn’t see the visual stuff as significant
11:42:37 <andythenorth> then the difference will never be grokked
11:43:09 <andythenorth> it will just be a confusing choice
11:44:45 * andythenorth can’t think of any solution for that, except to take the NUTS approach
11:45:03 <andythenorth> all roads seem to lead to copying NUTS
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12:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i could think of a few solutions... one would be adding "flavour text" that has describes real-world differences which cannot very well be mapped to gameplay features
12:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the other would be adding some gameplay difference like one getting the disadvantage of not being able to load some cargos, but having some other advantage like load speed
12:07:22 <andythenorth> that already applies in both these cases
12:07:44 <andythenorth> (the speed advantage and limited cargos vs. other wagon types)
12:08:02 <andythenorth> the extra text…dunno, seems quite arbitrary
12:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> well, flavour text would have to be consistend over all vehicles
12:09:11 <andythenorth> the only purpose of two types here is faster train identification
12:09:25 <andythenorth> but for people who can’t read visual cues, that’s no advantage
12:09:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and the other thing i don't mean wrt other wagon types, but specifically these two wagon types
12:10:17 <andythenorth> if this is confusing, then one type should be deleted
12:12:52 <andythenorth> similar issue, stake wagon / flat wagon split might not be justifiable
12:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i would exchange flat wagon for a container wagon, and have it available for free autorefit
12:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> (but overall worse performance)
12:16:47 <andythenorth> can a flat wagon carry logs without stakes / poles?
12:17:01 <andythenorth> if not, then what I actually have is two stake wagons :x
12:17:19 <V453000> if both wagons are equal, I would use both. They are ones of the best drawn wagons andy. SF level
12:18:30 <V453000> even better I would say
12:20:00 <andythenorth> according to the internet :P
12:26:21 <andythenorth> they both get stakes :P
12:32:27 <andythenorth> “bolster wagon” is probably much too UK-specific eh?
12:32:34 <andythenorth> instead of “flat wagon"
12:32:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that word means nothing to me
12:36:17 <andythenorth> it’s esoteric in the UK
12:36:34 <andythenorth> maybe 1 in 500 people would recognise it
12:38:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, i have seen the word "bolster" (without wagon context) being used, but even then i have no real clue what it means
12:38:56 <andythenorth> a pillow is a bolster
12:38:59 <andythenorth> lifts your head up
12:39:08 <andythenorth> took me years to learn that meaning
12:39:53 <andythenorth> bolster on vehicles is a block that something else rests on
12:45:08 <V453000> these wagons make me want to abandon 32bpp andy
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13:34:42 <andythenorth> V453000: also really simple workflow :)
13:34:55 <andythenorth> also automate all cargos :P
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14:11:44 <andythenorth> dunno about stake cars
14:12:29 <Wolf01> Still not sure about having 3 generations of the same car which looks almost the same
14:13:29 <andythenorth> is flaw of set design
14:16:20 <Wolf01> Not possible with year based refits?
14:30:44 <supermop> andythenorth: expired the old wagons promptly?
14:31:35 <Wolf01> And raise the running costs based on age so you can't autorenew and they cost really much to maintain and you are forced to switch to a new generation
14:31:56 <supermop> back to timetabling a 201kmh express and a 160kmh freight through the same stretch of track on a clock face schedule
14:32:59 <supermop> Wolf01 I feel like other than drawing tram liveries, this is the one thing in the game that really engages me
14:33:37 <Wolf01> I think I'll start to use timetables only when the autoseparation patch will be added to trunk
14:33:57 <Wolf01> JGR-pp is too sluggish on my system :(
14:35:02 <Wolf01> We really need to start use those strange things called graphics cards
14:37:05 <supermop> passengers go /--\_/
14:40:13 <supermop> flat junctions make me happy
14:40:37 <Wolf01> I only do flat junctions, trying to be realistic too
14:40:38 <supermop> the depot bothers me but I just needed to build another train there quickly
14:41:01 <Wolf01> I do flying junctions only when I have a lot of space and different levels
14:41:53 <supermop> those dirt roads with sidewalks need to be upgraded
14:42:37 <Wolf01> NRT need to be upgraded
14:53:48 <supermop> hmm 10 or 15 day tempo on schedules?
14:57:59 <supermop> passenger trains 15 apart will pass through the flat junction in opposite directions close to the same time
14:59:41 <supermop> andythenorth: in horse 1 I can't flip the cyclops to top and tail
15:00:05 <supermop> want to make a little fake hst
15:03:17 <oskari89> Thumbs up for that feature (shunting), someone is still working on that
15:14:58 <andythenorth> supermop: can’t flip articulated vehicles
15:15:03 <andythenorth> everything in horse 1 is articulated
15:15:43 <andythenorth> but every vehicle is 3 articulated parts
15:15:51 <andythenorth> didn’t have to be, but it was
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15:36:24 <supermop> no feedback on latest version
15:37:47 <andythenorth> no feedback when winning :)
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16:10:20 <frosch123> hmm, if i had drawn a stake van, there would be a stake at the left/right border of the wagon
16:10:47 <frosch123> maybe use the stake position to add variation to the generations?
16:12:17 <andythenorth> some have more than others
16:12:27 <andythenorth> although that conflicts with other patterns :P
16:13:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: is there anything I can do to make BGT slightly close to real?
16:13:36 * andythenorth getting bored of trains
16:21:18 <andythenorth> that’s a lot of work gone into animating a fake game
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16:45:31 <andythenorth> but how do you have a train without an engine? :O
16:54:37 <andythenorth> supermop: what colour to do stake cars then?
16:54:42 <andythenorth> original TTD one is grey
16:56:25 <andythenorth> I should base it on bubble truck in toyland
17:09:44 <peter1139> Looks like a model to me :p
17:10:25 <andythenorth> mixed 1cc / 2cc? o_O
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18:04:47 <Samu> ST2: i've been testing kirby paul vs ginzu vs chaney jubilee in single and double track, to see which is the best start, there are some surprises
18:05:18 <Samu> for single track, it's better to start with ginzu, and not the chaney jubilee
18:06:07 <Samu> chaney allows for a longer route, but the train will take more time to come back and forth a 2nd time
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18:06:24 <Samu> the income difference doesn't make for it
18:07:10 <Samu> kirby paul allows for an even longer route, but it's such a weak engine, it won't even make a profit
18:08:25 <Samu> as for starting with double track, dual chaney jubilee is the best start
18:08:54 <peter1139> Pfft, dumb default vehicles.
18:08:57 <Samu> dual ginzu is quite expensive, and since the limit is £150k, the route is too short for it to make a profit
18:09:29 <Samu> now, i also tested kirby paul on dual track, 2 trains and 3 trains
18:09:45 <Samu> 3 kirby pauls do better than 2 ginzus
18:09:46 <Gustavo6046> I have notes about the Brazilian Portuguese translation.
18:10:05 <Gustavo6046> • "Randômico" is wrong; "Aleatório" is the correct word.
18:10:25 <Samu> but 2 kirby pauls wielded the worst result
18:10:27 <Gustavo6046> Other than that I absolutely loved the accurate translation!
18:10:46 <Gustavo6046> Sounds like a native Brazilian who knows a notch of English to mix the word "random" in :P
18:11:30 <Samu> ranking it all, it becomes like this:
18:11:50 <Gustavo6046> peter1139, vanilla <3
18:12:07 <Samu> #1 - dual chaney jubilee on double track
18:12:44 <Samu> #2 - tri kirby pauls on double track
18:13:01 <Samu> #3 - dual ginzu on double track
18:13:25 <Samu> #4 - single ginzu on single track
18:13:50 <Samu> #5 - dual kirby pauls on double track
18:14:11 <Samu> #6 - single chaney jubilee in single track
18:14:26 <Samu> #7 - single kirby paul on single track
18:14:43 <Samu> the big surprise was then, the tri kirby paul
18:17:43 <Samu> i should mention distances
18:18:53 <Wolf01> Gone berserk on testing again?
18:22:16 <Wolf01> Why don't you test the different engines on the same conditions?
18:22:46 <Samu> the limit was £150k loan
18:22:54 <Samu> try to make complete routes to the last cent
18:23:04 <Samu> and i came up with those
18:23:23 <Samu> all trains were transporting coal
18:23:47 <Wolf01> It's like testing a F1 car doing the Silverstone international track vs a wheelbarrow on the national track and comparing times
18:23:48 <Samu> i also did this for trucks
18:24:10 <Samu> for trucks, it's not so interesting to report
18:24:28 <Samu> single road, and the number of trucks being the distance limitation
18:24:34 <Wolf01> You compare pears and apples with the condition of "being fruits"
18:29:48 <Samu> for trucks it was prety much a tie, only 3 of these tests are relevant to report
18:30:54 <Samu> #1 - 18 trucks, on a single road, 121 tiles
18:31:13 <Samu> #2 - 19 trucks, on a single road, 92 tiles
18:31:31 <Samu> #3 - 17 trucks, on a single road, 149 tiles
18:31:57 <Samu> #4, #5, #6 etc... are all less number of trucks with longer routes
18:34:53 <Samu> the best truck route is only able to beat #7 train route
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18:41:17 <andythenorth> probably what’s needed samu
18:41:27 <andythenorth> is some kind of way for players to mod vehicles
18:41:44 <andythenorth> so they can balance
18:42:07 <Samu> perhaps it's not the train itself that needs balance :(
18:42:16 <Samu> but the rails, constructing them
18:42:25 <Samu> they're cheaper than roads :(
18:44:26 <Samu> or maybe the roads themselves should be cheaper
18:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Gustavo6046: well, the svn log will know who the translator(s) for portuguese (br) was/were
18:44:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Gustavo6046: also, you can sign up as a translator if you want to improve
18:46:32 <Samu> distance matters too much in this game :(
18:59:23 <Samu> alright, time to experiment with basecosts
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19:02:08 <nauticalnexus> is this a support channel?
19:02:32 <nauticalnexus> Could you point me to a channel I can get support for openttd then?
19:03:43 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Don't ask to ask, just ask
19:04:24 <nauticalnexus> Oh. I'm trying to install 1.7.1 on Ubuntu 17.10 and it didn't work, says it depends on libicu52 but it isn't installable, libpng12-0 same thing
19:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, you need a version compiled specifically for that version of ubuntu, can't just take any ubuntu version
19:05:16 <Eddi|zuHause> or you use the "generic" linux binary
19:05:21 <nauticalnexus> well the repos don't have 1.7.1
19:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> does ubuntu have community repos or something?
19:08:36 <nauticalnexus> The binary worked.
19:31:07 <Samu> cheaper roads doesn't change all that much, allows one/two more trucks for the same distance
19:31:20 <Samu> it helps, but doesn't seem much
19:31:55 <Samu> perhaps testing will make me change my opinion
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19:35:49 <Samu> 19 trucks with roads costing half, allows a distance of 171 tiles, previously it was 92 tiles
19:37:26 <Samu> 18 trucks previously allowed a distance of 121 tiles, but with roads costing half, allows 20 trucks a distance of 119 tiles
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21:21:01 <Samu> rail costs doubled, road costs halved, £150k loan and with my running cost patch for trains
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22:10:36 <Snail> just curious.. do you guys play with or without inflation?
22:20:00 <Samu> without, because multiplayer
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22:22:15 <andythenorth> inflation is broken
22:24:02 <Wolf01> With, because I like it so
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22:25:13 <Gustavo6046> Is there how to put a sign in the center block?
22:25:44 <Gustavo6046> Also, is there any way to quickly remove all the signs without using scripts?
22:28:01 <Samu> i like infrastructure maintenance costs
22:28:12 <Samu> except for aircraft, it is too strong
22:29:37 <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "src/lang/polish.lng", line 761: A gender choice list {G} has to be followed by another string code or provide an offset
22:29:55 <andythenorth> I am deleting the relevant lines to fix FIRS compile
22:30:38 <andythenorth> wonder if eints could prevent this somehow
22:38:43 <andythenorth> new FIRS released ;)
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22:46:37 <Gustavo6046> Will next year have a Z-Shuttle?
22:51:27 <Snail> andythenorth: I think I have to agree with you
22:51:36 <Snail> inflation doesn’t work very well...
22:51:49 <Snail> I think I’ll recommend inflation off for my set
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