IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-19
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00:27:05 <Gustavo6046_> Maps could be divided into one or more Nations, where nation territory has laws, borders have limits, and unclaimed territory has far less towns but still industries.
00:31:26 <Eddi|zuHause> sure... make a game script...
00:32:07 <Gustavo6046_> Game script? Don't these like just do game conditions and stuff?
00:33:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, conditions like what law applies where, and stuff like draw borders by placing fences on tiles?
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08:23:02 <andythenorth> 6/8 or 8/8 for long wagons?
08:23:06 <andythenorth> or 0/8 (delete them)
08:53:15 <V453000> you know my opinion about weird lengths :) other than that they look awesome
08:53:46 <andythenorth> - 6/8 doesn’t make integer lengths very often
08:54:38 <andythenorth> but 6/8 looks better
08:54:56 <andythenorth> “but what is reason for having 2 lengths andythenorth?"
08:55:37 <andythenorth> - for when different trains (orders, cargos) need to use same wagon class
08:55:49 <andythenorth> helps player distinguish them
08:55:52 <andythenorth> looks more interesting
08:56:45 <V453000> well it's certainly cool to have 6/8, it's a nice middle ground between the short and long
08:58:51 <V453000> if I didn't have integer hitlerism, I would have made gen 1,2,3 in 4,6,8 too
08:59:34 <andythenorth> what is rationale?
08:59:40 <andythenorth> other than spamming menu?
09:08:35 <andythenorth> not doing 3 lengths for all of them :P
09:08:56 <V453000> :D well you don't exactly have to I guess
09:13:38 <V453000> having everything super consistent is good, but at the same time no variety at all is boring
09:13:43 <V453000> nuts is having this problem kind of
09:14:00 <V453000> the ultimate wagon is awesome, but it completely removes the fiddling with wagons, their lengths and stuff
09:14:02 <V453000> you just use the wagon
09:14:58 <andythenorth> it’s a nice end-run around the problem
09:15:30 <andythenorth> but I like the train building bit of the game
09:15:53 <andythenorth> I just don’t want to do economic analysis of the most optimum wagon given all factors :x
09:15:58 <andythenorth> like most grfs :P
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11:12:02 <Wolf01> Shitty java update, always fail to download
11:17:45 <andythenorth> horse has fewer wagon types than original TTD
11:17:49 * andythenorth thought it was a lot more
11:17:56 <andythenorth> never forget Toyland :P
11:20:02 <Wolf01> I'm glad that TF only have 4 types of wagons
11:20:45 <Wolf01> Open box/hopper, flat, liquid and bulk
11:20:58 <andythenorth> does it auto-refit?
11:21:55 <Wolf01> If you don't force a cargo refit it autorefits, which is a thing I hate and love
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13:49:27 <andythenorth> kind of inverse chibi
13:49:34 <andythenorth> those crawler track vehicles are huge :)
13:51:19 <Wolf01> I think I need some kre-o parts for my moc
13:51:40 <Wolf01> And as a purist this make me sad
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15:30:26 <Wolf01> I have just a bit of appetite...
15:30:36 <andythenorth> I have jerk goat curry and rice
15:30:54 <Wolf01> I finished the biscuits
15:31:29 <Wolf01> I think I ate my weight in biscuits
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15:33:03 <Gustavo6046> This API is soooo big!
15:33:23 <Gustavo6046> I'm still trying to find the function that gives the TownID of the nth largest town.
15:33:25 <supermop_> 6 packs of biscuits sounds much less heavy than a person
15:33:43 <Gustavo6046> Or how to get current balance.
15:34:03 <supermop_> apparently i exported like half of my p menu sprites with wrong pallette
15:34:14 <Wolf01> supermop_: depends on the weight of the biscuits and my weight
15:35:49 <Gustavo6046> inb4 as heavy as a 9 year old
15:36:00 <Gustavo6046> Anyway, I've got to look for things.
15:37:57 <supermop_> i am imagining a large box of saltine crackers
15:38:16 <supermop_> so 6 of those.... wolf weight 3 kg?
15:39:17 <Wolf01> I eat 750-800g packs of biscuits
15:40:01 <Wolf01> Now I just want to eat one of those saw kit boxes full of butter biscuits
15:40:03 <supermop_> so wolf weighs 4.8 kg
15:40:05 <Samu> i made a pricing table for comparison
15:40:29 <__ln__> Wolf01: why do you eat things like that in those quantities?
15:40:58 <Gustavo6046> Well. I still can't seem to find out where to get the EngineID of the cheapest bus.
15:40:59 <Wolf01> __ln__: To keep my BMI at a reasonable value
15:41:08 <Gustavo6046> The function is not in AIEngine it seems.
15:41:17 <Gustavo6046> Or then I searched wrong (Ctrl+F).
15:43:43 <Samu> i tried to match running costs of trains with delivery rate of buses
15:48:09 <Samu> mps regal bus is to be compared with chaney jubilee / dash
15:48:48 <Samu> hereford leopard bus vs floss 47 / sh 40
15:50:30 <Samu> well.. diesel engines are kinda... too cheap
15:51:10 <Samu> steam engines are a little bit expensive
15:51:51 <Samu> electric engines, at least the first ones, are in my view, in the right spot
15:52:01 <supermop_> Samu: isn't that the point of diesel engines?
15:52:09 <supermop_> that they are cheaper than steam
15:52:49 <supermop_> if everything is 'matched' what is the point of playing the game?
15:53:56 <Samu> there's still no real balance regarding those 300+ km/h trains
15:54:12 <supermop_> if a passenger route of x tiles has the same profit and cost for a given capacity regardless of bus , steam, or diesel train, why even bother have different types
15:54:35 <supermop_> just build the route with whatever bus exists in 1930 and never change it
15:55:32 <supermop_> Samu: if you offer me the chance to ride a 300kmh train from here to chicago or do the same journey on a bus, why would i ever take the bus
15:56:34 <Samu> i'm not really into the social aspect of the game :(
15:56:52 <supermop_> its kind of integral to the game that some modes of transit are objectively better
15:57:26 <supermop_> the bus is easier and cheaper to set up, but is not as efficient or sustainable to scale over distance or capacity
15:58:20 <supermop_> so different types are for different uses
15:58:32 <andythenorth> also there has to be an optimum type
15:58:39 <andythenorth> balancing is nonsense
15:58:48 <supermop_> andythenorth: it is clearly trains
15:59:06 <andythenorth> dragon-farming games aren’t balanced
15:59:21 <andythenorth> well, they are, but not levelled
15:59:41 <supermop_> but in the slow early game it might be too difficult to build a train line so the game gives you some shitty buses as a sop
16:00:03 <andythenorth> it’s progression
16:00:12 <andythenorth> also trains can’t drive on water, so boats
16:02:36 <Samu> i was just trying to closely match running costs of trains with the rest. I saw an opportunity to add costs on wagons
16:03:34 <supermop_> don't wagons already have a running cost?
16:03:53 <Samu> the originals don't have
16:04:24 <supermop_> i never play with original vehicles
16:04:32 <andythenorth> running cost is newgrf
16:04:38 <Samu> they have an INVALID_PRICE or something
16:05:44 <Samu> patch identifies these wagons with INVALID_PRICE and then simulates costs
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16:06:41 <Samu> i tried to make it newgrf friendly, but I suppose I'm failing somewhere
16:07:05 <Samu> but i haven't found any newgrf with INVALID_PRICE on their wagons yet
16:11:18 <supermop_> simulates cost? does it just set cost to some value?
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16:12:19 <andythenorth> replace original base set trains with newgrf :P
16:12:42 <Samu> cost is based on parts that specify a cost, in the case of original trains, the engines
16:13:12 <supermop_> Samu: a coal wagon should cost the same regardless of what pulls it
16:13:28 <supermop_> running cost should be based on a % of the purchase cost
16:13:54 <Samu> i tried a linear cost with v3
16:14:29 <supermop_> if you want to get exotic it could cost more if it is being pulled faster, but that is problematic as the user doesn't necessarily know that will be the case
16:15:04 <supermop_> if it says $10/year, but your wagon is costing you $20/year, it will look broken
16:15:26 <Samu> it doesn't say what it costs until it's attached to an engin
16:15:38 <supermop_> that is kind of problematic
16:15:50 <Samu> it's based on engine type and length of train
16:16:46 <supermop_> why does a coal hopper cost more to repair depending on the engine that pulls it?
16:16:59 <supermop_> are they paying to clean coal soot off of the roof
16:18:17 <Samu> lol i dunno what to say about that
16:18:57 <Samu> the lenghtier the train, the costlier the running cost per wagon
16:19:13 <supermop_> that is like the opposite of what it should be
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16:19:42 <Samu> if you split those wagons with a 2nd train
16:19:51 <supermop_> they whole point of a train, in game and in real life, is that it gets cheaper and more efficient as capacity goes up
16:19:57 <Samu> the sum of both trains running costs should match
16:19:57 <Gustavo6046> supermop_, I'm trying to first do a basic AI that uses the best available bus and links some towns using Djikstra algorithm
16:20:27 <supermop_> two 500t trains should always cost more than one 1000t train
16:20:42 <supermop_> that is the raison d'etre of trains
16:20:59 <Samu> sec, let me see one thing here
16:21:12 <supermop_> the tracks are expensive, and the locomotive costs more than a truck, but it can scale
16:23:31 <supermop_> neii don't see how it improves the game to have that ^ be equal to a truck, or for 100 of those ^ to be equal to one long train
16:23:35 <Gustavo6046> I always though locomotives were too costly.
16:23:52 <andythenorth> optimum for inventory turn
16:24:04 <andythenorth> might not be optimum for network utilisation
16:24:07 <andythenorth> or cost per unit
16:24:27 <Samu> oki, i got 3 trains here, train 1 with 5 wagons, train 2 with 10 wagons, train 3 with 1 wagon
16:24:33 <supermop_> the locomotive is expensive, and impractical to pull one car, but the locomotive can pull 10 or 20 or 50 cars
16:24:51 <andythenorth> self-powered wagon
16:25:06 <supermop_> andythenorth: container railcar
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16:25:33 <supermop_> i wonder if pacer frame could support FCL
16:25:42 <Samu> costs are train 1 - £9,981/yr, train 2 - £24,107/yr, train 3 - £5,461
16:26:03 <supermop_> that looks really wrong
16:26:11 <Gustavo6046> There could be a cheaper electric engine as well.
16:26:20 <andythenorth> supermop_: pacer is a high-speed wagon chassis with a bus body on it
16:26:23 <Gustavo6046> After the SH-40 is introduced.
16:26:37 <Gustavo6046> I don't think it'd encourage trains with 1 wagon.
16:26:39 <supermop_> you are saying that two 5 car trains are cheaper than one 10 car train
16:26:45 <Samu> on train 1 - £941/yr, on train 2 - £1,883/yr, on train 3 - £188/yr
16:26:59 <supermop_> andythenorth: i used to ride them all the time on harrogate line
16:27:19 <supermop_> i am sorry that is stupidly dumb
16:28:03 <Wolf01> supermop_: but you don't understand
16:28:06 <supermop_> how the hell does a train with 1 locomotive and 10 cars cost more to run than two separate 5 car trains combined
16:28:19 <Samu> looks like I was wrong when I said that
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16:29:32 <Samu> well, because the cost of the engine might have an impact
16:29:39 <Gustavo6046> supermop_, true, two engines cost more than one, their cost at around 60x the car cost makes it nearly indifferent without a shit ton of cars, which would require more engines too
16:29:55 <Samu> should be costlier to buy 2 engines
16:30:06 <Samu> but running costs on the other hand.... yeah... are cheaper
16:30:14 <Alberth> 2 engines against a mountain of money?
16:30:34 <Wolf01> Could running costs be made so they increase exponentially with the train age? In TF they are like this and make me constantly renew vehicles if I don't want to be submerged in debts... it costs less to renew vehicles than maintain 50y/o vehicles
16:30:41 <Gustavo6046> Alberth, if you had like 2M you could try 20 engines, in a well signaled track, and ??? then profit :)
16:30:55 <supermop_> Wolf01: i think you can do that in nml
16:31:29 <andythenorth> yeah running costs can increase based on age, service date, etc
16:31:34 <andythenorth> if there is an ‘r’ in the month
16:31:37 <Alberth> 2M? in most games I have millions of millions
16:31:39 <andythenorth> but not phase of the moon
16:31:59 * andythenorth wonders if moon phase var could be added for newgrf
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16:32:07 <andythenorth> we could presumably encode it for the day
16:32:18 <Alberth> day of month is quite a good approximation?
16:32:24 <supermop_> andythenorth: you could probably figure it out via a complex switch
16:32:25 <andythenorth> I guess newgrf could do it in a big switch
16:32:53 <supermop_> "ship can't go to this dock... tide too low"
16:32:55 <Alberth> no idea, I never counted how many digits money I have
16:32:58 <Gustavo6046> btw I'm eating rice, chicken and potato sticks.
16:33:32 <Gustavo6046> lmao andy awesome
16:33:44 <Alberth> around the 5-10th year my income is bigger than what I can spend. Then I stop caring about money
16:33:47 <supermop_> Alberth: i set my currency to won or yen so it is just a big indifferentiable pile
16:34:05 <Gustavo6046> Alberth, I don't usually profit a lot XD
16:34:08 <Gustavo6046> Only if inflation is off
16:34:30 <Alberth> I do that standard, as inflation doesn't add anything useful
16:34:47 <Gustavo6046> If I have inflation on all of my company dies!
16:35:02 <Alberth> just generating big numbers without meaning
16:35:13 <Gustavo6046> Yeah, it does give a realistic feel, but still sucks
16:35:24 <Gustavo6046> Alberth, it increases cost without increasing the value of existing stuff
16:35:33 <Gustavo6046> so early game is always a well valued game
16:35:56 <Samu> so my formula is flawed somewhere :(
16:36:02 <Alberth> so it takes me a few more years to get to break-even
16:36:12 <Alberth> and then I stop caring :p
16:36:45 <Samu> "how the hell does a train with 1 locomotive and 10 cars cost more to run than two separate 5 car trains combined" - thx supermop_
16:37:20 <Alberth> it's called non-linear costs :p
16:37:20 <Gustavo6046> 'Modern Motion - Rock Power' metal version who?
16:39:02 <Alberth> technically, non-linear can also mean the 10cars cost less, but that happens suspicious few times
16:41:09 <Gustavo6046> Samu, 1/10 = 0.1 and 1/5 + 1/5 = 0.2 + 0.2 = 0.4
16:41:33 <andythenorth> if this ‘small’, ‘medium’, ‘large’ thing works, some of the ‘large’ wagons could be very large :P
16:42:17 <Alberth> aka insane storage capacity
16:42:31 <Samu> 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 - £54,610/yr
16:42:39 <Gustavo6046> andythenorth, idea: you can have the sprites flexible (both ends are the same, but the middle (with two wheels) is tiled as many times as an user given value V, which is also the size of the wagon.)
16:43:13 <Alberth> Samu: you need more drivers for more trains
16:43:16 <supermop_> should p menu sprites change with time
16:43:59 <Samu> 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 - £30,130/yr
16:44:01 <Alberth> supermop_: sounds a bit confusing
16:44:57 <supermop_> like, if a tram comes with a 2cc stripe on 1cc body in 1980, but in 1990 has 1 and 2 cc stripes on white body
16:45:16 <supermop_> does it matter if the p-menu still shows the old 1980 style?
16:45:58 <andythenorth> if the sprites are deterministic, purchase menu should change
16:46:15 <andythenorth> if they’re very random, then stable purchase menu sprite
16:46:40 <supermop_> current only a couple have any real randomness
16:46:51 <supermop_> most it is a progression of liveries
16:46:51 <Gustavo6046> freenode has more wolves. I've got to do a listing of Wolves using IRC!
16:47:24 <supermop_> and vehicles in preview get special livery
16:47:44 <Samu> 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/4 - £22,222/yr
16:47:51 <Alberth> blinking yellow neon would be nice
16:48:15 <Samu> well so 1/5 + 1/5 is the ideal for running costs
16:48:31 <Samu> some math magic is happening here
16:49:35 <Samu> it gets to a point that adding more wagons than a certain number isn't "worth it"
16:50:12 <Alberth> would transport more, and thus make more money, right?
16:50:32 <supermop_> if i can stack sprites in the p menu then that would make things a bit easier
16:50:50 <supermop_> why is a long train less efficient
16:51:21 <supermop_> other than for accelleration
16:51:45 <supermop_> samu, i mean, why /should/ a long train be less effiecient
16:51:48 <Alberth> running cost increases faster with longer trains
16:52:00 <supermop_> how does that make the game more fun
16:53:13 <Alberth> for some forms of playing it no doubt is
16:54:56 <Alberth> coop also plays with short trains mostly, afaik, although that is driven by efficiency of the network rather than by cost
16:55:10 <Gustavo6046> 0% reliability means infinite breaking?
16:55:49 <Alberth> it's quite effective in taking down a network though :p
16:56:01 <supermop_> Alberth: yeah, there is already a push for short trains in terms of signal/junction spacing and 'fun' of seeing more trains zip around
16:56:15 <Gustavo6046> Anyway, I am still trying to find out how to find the closest depot.
16:56:44 <supermop_> but that is 'balanced' by the larger capacity per dollar of long trains
16:56:52 <Alberth> just run A* from the depots to the train
16:57:10 <supermop_> why patch the game to make it so there is never a reason to have a long train
16:57:33 <Gustavo6046> I will run Djikstra instead, ok?
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16:57:44 <Alberth> or do dijkstra from the train outwards until you reach a limit or find a depot
16:57:55 <Gustavo6046> As in from a crashed vehicle
16:58:05 <Gustavo6046> Buses don't crash, right?
16:58:17 <Alberth> park one on a crossing :p
16:58:38 <Gustavo6046> Do vehicles get abducted??
16:58:55 <supermop_> "ship 1 has crashed.. wrong phase of moon"
16:59:02 <Alberth> not sure how though, I never saw it happen
16:59:26 <Samu> the reason to have a long train is because it's still cheaper than 2 trains, in the very early part of the game at least
16:59:29 <supermop_> andythenorth: isn't run aground the opposite of sinking
16:59:44 <supermop_> at least until the tide comes back
16:59:44 <andythenorth> not if you hole it, and the tide comes back in
16:59:51 * andythenorth has seen it done
17:00:28 <supermop_> "Ship 2 has crashed on the partially submerged wreckage of ship 1"
17:01:07 <Gustavo6046> "Meteor has crashed: The fat Earth is in the way!"
17:01:39 <supermop_> if you flood a track, do trains on it crash or just disappear?
17:02:02 <Gustavo6046> I think they crash
17:02:09 <Gustavo6046> the water is such a heavy solid
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17:03:26 <Samu> for 2 trains, it's needed two lines, costs are definitely much higher, however... this is the goal anyway, what's confusing me is that longer trains can at times have running costs higher than 2 shorter trains. The question still stands :(
17:06:23 <supermop_> so they sink instead
17:06:24 <andythenorth> Floods! At least 2 presumed dead after significant flooding!
17:06:39 * andythenorth surprised that message exists
17:06:49 <andythenorth> given that I had to use the canal hack to build trains on water
17:06:50 <supermop_> that is the real message?
17:07:14 <supermop_> CS was a devious soul who loved to sink trains i guess
17:08:18 <andythenorth> unless canals were retconned into TTD...
17:08:22 <Alberth> andy, make some land at height 0 with a dike around it
17:08:24 <andythenorth> …I suspect we added that one
17:08:35 <Alberth> build train, then lower thedike
17:08:37 <Gustavo6046> andythenorth, you can also dig a valley
17:08:40 <Gustavo6046> put a train on a loop inside
17:08:47 <Gustavo6046> and then connect the valley to a nearby body of water
17:09:51 <Gustavo6046> Put water in an airport and crash everyone there
17:10:00 <Gustavo6046> planes forever stuck or dead
17:10:35 <supermop_> andythenorth: i did it in tto
17:10:56 <supermop_> don't remember the flood msg
17:14:34 <Gustavo6046> Why did I associate the SimCity 2000 theme song with OpenTTD?
17:15:49 <supermop_> idk but the tto themesong is awesome
17:16:53 <Gustavo6046> My favorite songs in OpenTTD are both Modern Motion: they're Green Hill and Rock Power
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17:47:04 <supermop_> i dont understand why every sprite i saved from this computer yesterday and today now has the wrong pallet
17:47:21 <supermop_> it looks correct, it says it has 256 colors
17:47:43 <andythenorth> you can use photoshop automation to batch force a palette
17:48:27 <supermop_> but nmlc is telling me "invalid palatte: invalid palette, does not contain 256 entries
17:49:05 <supermop_> andythenorth: i am worried somehow my ttd palette on this PS got messed up,
17:49:33 <supermop_> because i just re-exported all of these this morning to try to correct
17:49:45 <andythenorth> how are you exporting?
17:49:54 <andythenorth> is it dropping unused colours?
17:50:11 <andythenorth> are the slice settings correct?
17:50:18 <supermop_> set to 256, not auto
17:50:20 <andythenorth> each slice can have its own setting...
17:50:52 <andythenorth> I don’t bother with slices anymore
17:50:56 <andythenorth> I used to, but too much faff
17:51:11 <andythenorth> don’t even use layers anymore, just draw straight into pngs
17:51:17 <supermop_> apparently slice 1 was set to something else
17:51:27 <supermop_> the other 3 were fine
17:52:37 <andythenorth> so I set out to reduce from 6 generations to 5, and from 2 variants to 1
17:52:47 <andythenorth> so how do I now have 6 generations, and 3 variants? :P
17:53:03 <Alberth> saving 50% of the pixels, eh?
17:53:40 <andythenorth> the intention was 50% reduction yes :P
17:53:48 <Gustavo6046> But I forgot I was doing it for trains D:
17:54:05 <andythenorth> fortunately Alberth $someone added ‘hide train'
17:54:13 <supermop_> ok only 44 pngs to fix
17:55:19 <andythenorth> supermop_: batch :P
17:55:21 <Alberth> Gustavo6046: convert to road trains?
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17:56:43 <Gustavo6046> let me just convert to spaces
17:57:18 <Alberth> probably too much javascript
17:57:41 <Alberth> oh, lepa* thing works
17:57:48 <Gustavo6046> other than a pre tag
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18:01:37 <Alberth> no idea what I am reading, but I'll take your word for it that it's dijkstra
18:01:50 <Gustavo6046> It's a part of a Squirrel game script
18:02:06 <Alberth> yep .nut gave that away already :)
18:04:46 <Alberth> oh, local functions, ok
18:04:48 <supermop_> this grf takes a long time to compile
18:05:17 <supermop_> i can use the compile time to do real work that i am supposed to be doing
18:05:29 <andythenorth> Horse is 1 minute compile
18:05:34 <Alberth> sounds like a good option too
18:06:11 <Alberth> so that's the real reason for saving pixels, eh?
18:06:22 <andythenorth> it was the main driver for ‘delete’ yes
18:07:00 <supermop_> can't really thoroughly test grf at work though
18:07:34 <Gustavo6046> ported from hastyebin
18:07:45 <Samu> so, up to a train of with 7 wagons, it's always more efficient to have 1 train
18:07:58 <Samu> with 8 wagons, that changes
18:08:06 <Samu> it's better to have 2 trains
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18:08:44 <supermop_> 7 original wagons pls locomotive is only 4 tiles
18:09:05 <supermop_> but if that is the style you want to play with, go nuts
18:09:32 <Samu> i didn't finish that, it would continue up to 13
18:10:08 <supermop_> i feel like a 4 tile long train is pretty short to penalize as too long
18:10:56 <supermop_> i wonder if i should do mop generic train vehicles next
18:11:09 <Samu> ok, i will take a look at the formula
18:11:15 <Samu> wondering where it fails
18:11:31 <supermop_> Grass Ass Train Renewal Set
18:11:32 <Samu> maybe try another divisor value
18:11:51 <Samu> maybe there's a correlation
18:11:51 <V453000> doesn't work supermop
18:12:17 <V453000> must be something like BEST_TRAIN_SET_4D_64BPP_MAX_ZOOM_BUY_NOW
18:14:06 <Alberth> but your suggestion could work
18:14:31 <V453000> I already have a name for my set sorry :P
18:15:18 <V453000> just felt like sharing the status of my mental state which may or may not be comparable to vegetal anus
18:15:31 <Alberth> with fewer underscores, I bet :p
18:15:52 <V453000> 4 letter self-recursive acronyms 4_LYFE
18:16:37 <Alberth> hmm, my notion of letter doesn't work for that
18:18:22 <Alberth> good way to spend compile time
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18:19:36 <Gustavo6046> ATMunn, you on bro?
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18:21:24 <V453000> compile time my ass, I'm rendering for the last 18 hours ._. 8 more hours to go
18:23:02 <Gustavo6046> I feel bad for you guys
18:23:56 <V453000> well the bright side is that I don't give a single unit of fecal matter, since I have many things to fix before next render batch :D
18:24:45 <Alberth> conisdered buying a full height 42" rack and fill it with computers? :p
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18:25:07 <V453000> it's not that common to have these big tasks
18:25:20 <V453000> I could split it to multiple computers if I really wanted but eh
18:25:45 <V453000> it's one of the things which I haven't got solved yet in Blender, automatic multi-machine rendering
18:25:45 <Alberth> it'd be faster than than you can prepare for the next round :)
18:25:48 <andythenorth> you need a patreon so you can pay for AWS servers
18:25:53 <V453000> I can give each computer tasks manually but I can't split it automatically yet
18:25:53 <andythenorth> think of the automation you could do
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18:26:21 <V453000> the amount of shit that would be necessary for that currently isn't exactly easy
18:26:51 <Gustavo6046> Now I need to find out all road tiles of a town with at least 1 empty orthogonal neighbors.
18:26:55 <V453000> so since most tasks don't take that long (1080Ti is making sure most of them are pretty fast), it's not really worth making the whole thing more complicated
18:26:58 <Gustavo6046> s/neighbors/neighbor
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18:27:48 <Gustavo6046> To make matters worse, I just can't even find the starting point list of tiles in a town!
18:28:16 <Gustavo6046> if I iterate from the seed tile until the boundaries. Neat!
18:28:33 <Alberth> sounds like the way to go
18:29:52 <V453000> I knew you'd figure it out
18:34:36 <Alberth> might fail for town build at the slope of a mountain
18:36:21 <ATMunn> Gustavo6046: i am now :D
18:36:57 <ATMunn> quick tip: i use simple_away in znc, so if you /whois me and im away then i probably am not online
18:37:18 <supermop_> patreon seems pretty fair for newgrf making
18:38:05 <supermop_> although i guess for recurring payments you'd start to feel really beholden to make more newgrfs and support old ones forever
18:39:00 <supermop_> if you have a few people paying you are in an odd space where you might not bring in enough to enable you to really focus on making lots of new content, but people are expecting it
18:39:22 <supermop_> maybe you should just sell NUTS t shirts, V453000
18:39:36 <supermop_> someone likes nuts, they can buy a shirt
18:42:14 <supermop_> i mean depending on the shirt, i might buy out of my love of mollusks regardless of newgrf
18:43:31 <V453000> I think trying to monetize something you do in your free time is really dangerous
18:43:49 <V453000> because now if I want to stop making BRIX, I just do
18:44:08 <V453000> having to force myself to do this madness would be totally different level of insanity, and would probably mean quality decrease
18:45:10 <Gustavo6046> V45Σ000: sounds bad
18:45:48 <andythenorth> I don’t want customers
18:45:53 <andythenorth> so no attempt to monetise
18:45:57 <V453000> yeah customer is the biggest enemy
18:46:14 <V453000> also I would probably have to make something realistic to get wide enough audience
18:46:24 <andythenorth> if I was 21 and short of money…maybe different
18:47:14 <Alberth> even then, one should be able to explore things and fail
18:47:32 <supermop_> that's the beauty of a t shirt
18:47:42 <supermop_> you only have customers of the shirt
18:48:00 <V453000> for me the ultimate excuse for myself why to dump hours into openttd stuff is that it allows me to just go wild on experimenting and trying to build a different system, and try to achieve different results than at work
18:48:21 <supermop_> andythenorth: what about if you are 33 and short of money
18:48:23 <V453000> it's super common that for example I recycle scripts for BRIX at work, or at least pieces of them
18:48:31 <andythenorth> supermop_: maybe :P
18:48:37 <andythenorth> any age and short of money
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18:48:50 <V453000> moral of the story: andythenorth is a rich bastard
18:49:07 <supermop_> though im more likely to monetize shapeways stuff or similar
18:49:25 <supermop_> physical item with no ongoing commitment
18:49:28 <andythenorth> on any of those things where you put your salary in and compare it with global salary
18:49:32 <andythenorth> I am a rich bastard
18:49:33 <supermop_> unless it kills someone i guess
18:49:36 <andythenorth> and so are you V453000 :P
18:49:52 <supermop_> what about where i compare salary to wife's salary
18:50:14 <andythenorth> it’s an interesting place being in the top 5% or 10% (varies by year)
18:50:28 <andythenorth> and then seeing that the 1% are anything up to 500x richer
18:51:10 <supermop_> in newyork, being in the 1% (which we are not) nationally, puts you barely at the middle
18:51:21 <andythenorth> it’s a power law probably :P
18:51:25 <V453000> well, they can't buy a newgrf even if they are 1000x richer :P
18:51:38 <supermop_> 1% in US is roughly over 250,000USD a year
18:52:11 <V453000> supermop_: that would be like 0.1% in czehc republic :)
18:52:37 <supermop_> in NYC, 'nice' apartments are priced such that you really should be earning around $10M a year to afford them
18:52:52 <V453000> that's pretty fucked up amount
18:53:09 <supermop_> and the remarkably nice places cost between 25-100M to buy
18:53:27 <supermop_> some pretty nice places are 10-20K a month
18:53:48 <V453000> well all those prices seem just from a different universe to me
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18:54:04 <supermop_> our apartment is a bit of a stretch for us at 2700 per month
18:54:37 <andythenorth> our mortgage is less than that
18:54:44 <andythenorth> substantially less, like 60% of that
18:54:56 <andythenorth> 3.5 bedroom house, 2.5 floors
18:55:03 <supermop_> but basically nothing exists in manhattan under 2000 anymore (rent on my first east village apartment in a great location)
18:55:29 <supermop_> andythenorth: this is for 500 square feet, no light, 1.5 bedrooms in chinatown
18:55:32 <V453000> our mortgage is about 600eur per month for a super nice large flat at the edge of prague
18:55:35 <Gustavo6046> Isn't doing game scripts for OpenTTD in Squirrel for pathfinding between towns a very small subset of programming?
18:55:47 <supermop_> same apartmen in nolita or east village would now be over 4000
18:56:12 <supermop_> V453000: most of brooklyn is the same now
18:56:21 <supermop_> as is the close parts of queens
18:56:25 <andythenorth> so in conclusion V453000, supermop would be a rich bastard
18:56:31 <andythenorth> but lives in NYC so has no spare cash
18:56:46 <supermop_> yet i have 200 usd in my bank account right now
18:57:13 <supermop_> and i owe wife 700 at the moment
18:57:17 <andythenorth> wealth is relative to local costs
18:57:28 <V453000> well if he lived under a bridge for 2 months he could have more than both of us combined? :P
18:57:44 <V453000> think of the possibilities!
18:58:39 <supermop_> andythenorth: problem in america is, leave the expensive city, generally you leave the decent salary too
18:59:01 <andythenorth> such market economy
18:59:04 <supermop_> even if you work in fracking and go out to middle of nowhere north dakota,
18:59:23 <supermop_> a trailer in baken formation town will also be over 4000 a month
18:59:59 <V453000> I guess that's everywhere the same :P
19:00:11 <V453000> in Prague everything is also more expensive
19:00:18 <V453000> compared to the 10 times smaller city I lived in
19:00:51 <V453000> I was renting my flat for 400 usd a month there, just for comparison :P
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19:02:21 <supermop_> V453000: tokyo would be much much cheaper for me to live in
19:02:36 <supermop_> salary would be like 80% but rent maybe 55%
19:02:36 <V453000> yeah also kind of on the opposite side of the shitball :D
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19:04:51 <supermop_> at least i dont live in SF or silicon valley
19:05:03 <supermop_> i would literally be living out of a van out there
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19:05:23 <supermop_> although there are developers that make like 150k that live in their vans there
19:05:55 <Alberth> work 16/24, and sleep for the remaining 8 hours
19:07:00 <supermop_> work 16, drive van to coast to surf the other 8
19:07:16 <supermop_> time shifts to coincide with tides/swells
19:07:52 <V453000> if I didn't have a family I would probably sleep at the office
19:08:08 <V453000> not because more $, but because why bother
19:08:12 <Gustavo6046> Did you mean... shifts? (jk)
19:08:25 <Gustavo6046> Did you mean... shifts?
19:08:31 <supermop_> really i think oz is the only place i've been with good balance of pay, costs, quality of life
19:08:39 <supermop_> still not that cheap but
19:08:56 <supermop_> regular jobs pay well still there
19:09:14 <supermop_> welder or developer can both live in same area
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19:16:48 <supermop_> ok my p-menu sprites are way off
19:17:03 <supermop_> though i did just guess at the offsets
19:17:13 <Samu> supermop_: the divisor has influence, i tried to double the value of it, instead of 7, to 14
19:17:54 <Samu> up to size 8, it's still more efficient to have 1 train rather than 2
19:18:32 <Samu> i wonder about trains of size 13 now
19:19:07 <Samu> if the divisor is directly related to the efficience curve
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19:52:12 <andythenorth> I considered buying a fleet of vans instead of moving office
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19:53:37 <supermop_> the whole thing is to let?
19:53:48 <supermop_> also how'd you get evicted?
19:54:02 <andythenorth> 3 month notice on the lease
19:54:25 <andythenorth> pretty dark in winter
19:54:36 <andythenorth> those photos are…adjusted imho
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19:59:13 <supermop_> i can't fit all trucks on my monitor in buy menu
19:59:35 <supermop_> needs 7 full height columns
20:05:29 <andythenorth> someone try horse
20:05:34 <andythenorth> it might be awful
20:06:00 <andythenorth> also translations
20:06:17 <andythenorth> “Small Box Car”, “Medium Box Car”, “Large Box Car"
20:06:28 <andythenorth> can I substring those safely, so that “Box Car” isn’t repeated?
20:06:40 <andythenorth> I’m not sure about order of size modifier in other languages
20:06:58 <andythenorth> or it might be one compound word in something like German
20:11:10 <frosch123> i don't think it is worth the trouble
20:11:27 <frosch123> you cannot resuse the same "small" for other wagons
20:11:57 <frosch123> while the noun is usually not affected by the adjective, the adjective is affected by the noun in languages with genders and cases
20:15:38 <Gustavo6046> time to test my AI guys
20:16:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: thanks
20:16:19 <andythenorth> I wrote them out so far as 3 repetitive strings per wagon type
20:16:36 <andythenorth> my experience of i18n etc is that compound (concatenated) strings are problematic
20:18:36 <andythenorth> good luck Gustavo6046 :P
20:19:43 <Gustavo6046> inb4 AI makes a TON of trucks
20:23:21 <Gustavo6046> I forgot to define linkCities >_>
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20:27:01 <supermop_> this doesn't even include the trams
20:27:37 <andythenorth> supermop_: is that all one grf? :)
20:28:21 <supermop_> x types of truck * y generations of truck * z types of power
20:29:16 <andythenorth> how come hog is so much smaller :)
20:29:23 <supermop_> *w lengths of truck
20:29:24 <andythenorth> I thought I’d over-provided trucks :P
20:29:39 <supermop_> hog has no electric or bi mode trucks
20:29:58 <supermop_> hog also doesn't do rigid/semi/road train
20:30:25 <andythenorth> supermop_: check new Horse :P
20:30:28 <andythenorth> many many wagons
20:30:46 <Gustavo6046> Hydrogen buses from 2025 onwards that increase speed, reliability and ratings, but are rather costly!
20:31:29 <andythenorth> supermop_: about 150 wagons :P
20:31:52 <supermop_> if i could just have 8 cab/tractors, and say 18 trailers, i could provide even more with only 26 items in the purchase list instead of 294
20:33:06 <supermop_> Gustavo6046: the 4th generation diesels have a callback whereby if you buy them late enough, they do not have visible exhaust pipes nor emit smoke
20:33:25 <supermop_> andythenorth: link?
20:34:48 <andythenorth> supermop_: do they have a limited range because they’ve run out of AdBlue?
20:35:05 <V453000> holy shit supermop_ :)
20:36:19 <supermop_> andythenorth: i think mczapie tried once to implement some callback in his set where trucks have 100% reliability for a certain range then drop to like 0
20:36:35 <andythenorth> also try horse around 2030
20:36:45 <supermop_> so they need to go to depot to 'refuel'
20:36:50 <andythenorth> it’s designed to only make sense with ‘vehicles expire’ on
20:37:28 <supermop_> one sec photos just came in that i need to PS and put on our website before a press package goes out
20:43:00 <Gustavo6046> If this doesn't compile...
20:43:09 <Gustavo6046> I don't want to know about the 654 line main!
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20:45:03 <Gustavo6046> Or did I have to reopen the game..?
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21:24:12 <andythenorth> is it ‘small’ = 4/8, ‘medium’ = 6/8 and ‘large’ = 8/8?
21:24:50 <andythenorth> ‘small’ = always smallest version, ‘medium’ is the middle if there are 3 variants, ‘large’ is always the larges
21:25:10 <andythenorth> sometimes there is 1 length of wagon, sometimes there are 2, sometimes there are 3
21:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> small is the smallest and large is the largest
21:40:49 <andythenorth> and if there’s only one?
21:40:52 <andythenorth> drop the size modifier?
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21:43:57 <Samu> this is with a different divisor value
21:44:34 <Samu> it's better to have 1 train
21:47:19 <Gustavo6046> Why does my AI do nothing? Not even a log??
21:53:10 <supermop_> unless computer at home is asleep
21:53:21 <supermop_> which... seems like it should be?
21:57:05 <Gustavo6046> supermop_, does rand even exist? I've tried rand() and math.rand() and Math.rand()!
21:58:37 <Samu> what does feel better? efficient up to 7/13 or 10/13?
21:59:21 <Gustavo6046> Samu, whichever has the largest efficiency:cost ratio.
21:59:27 <Gustavo6046> (To the left side ;))
21:59:34 <supermop_> Gustavo6046: i have no ide what you are talking about
21:59:45 <Gustavo6046> The rand() function in Squirrel, sorry
21:59:49 <Gustavo6046> I can't access it
21:59:55 <Gustavo6046> Even if I prefix with ::
22:00:49 <Samu> i might adjust the formula to divisor * 2 instead if 10/13 feels better, costs will also decrease overall
22:02:52 <ST2> Gustavo6046: I got it with random_var = rand() % 4;
22:02:59 <ST2> if about OpenTTD, check ../core/random_func.hpp
22:03:00 <supermop_> my opinion is that costs should increment per wagon independent of loco type or train length
22:03:43 <supermop_> but if you enjoy a play style with a different logic behind the costs, then you should optimize it for what is most fun for you
22:05:52 <Samu> 1 wagon £100 per wagon , 2 wagons £200 per wagon, making it £400, like that?
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22:09:04 <supermop_> no, i mean, my style would be that every wagon costs 100, no matter what
22:09:29 <supermop_> but if you want a different style, base it on what is most fun for you
22:10:41 <Samu> ah, i see, well i had a similar approach with v3 formula, cost per wagon was a fixed value, but it was still based on loco
22:12:32 <andythenorth> can’t use contrasting vertical stripes
22:15:33 <V453000> looks awesome, but I must say they are kind of too similar imo
22:15:45 <V453000> 4th gen = moar shiny? :P
22:22:21 <supermop_> newer = less greeble
22:22:35 <andythenorth> 50% company colour?
22:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to make the old generations look actually old...
22:23:02 <supermop_> cc is also good way to look newer
22:23:12 <andythenorth> when 3 of the generations are 1960, 1990 and 2020 that’s hard
22:23:20 <andythenorth> RL train wagons look same for last 50 years
22:23:45 <andythenorth> I’m still 50:50 on going to 2020
22:23:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that is actually true
22:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause> trains changed a lot from 1960 to 1990
22:24:01 <andythenorth> it causes real problems making gen 5 and 6 look different
22:24:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and for 2020 you can make your creativity run wild
22:25:07 <supermop_> animated OLED advert boards on the sides of tankers
22:25:07 <andythenorth> I prefer the creativity of synthesising 10 RL examples into chibi game art :P
22:25:44 <andythenorth> inventing ‘anything you like’ lacks any constraint
22:26:01 <andythenorth> it’s not a creative problem, it’s just randomised expression
22:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> your problem is that every decade had unique design elements, but you're not using any of them...
22:27:54 <andythenorth> what’s different? o_O
22:28:46 <V453000> well at least one is shiny :P
22:28:52 <V453000> gives modern feel, is enough
22:29:00 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing says "greener freight" more than diesel fuel?
22:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> also, that second image doesn't load
22:30:13 <supermop_> andythenorth: the difference is in graphic design in some degree
22:30:57 <supermop_> my 60s ish and 90s ish box truck trailers are the same shape, but with different design of 2cc stripe
22:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> well, those look all completely different
22:33:00 <andythenorth> the salient differences being…?
22:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the painting style...
22:33:48 <andythenorth> but in the gestalt?
22:34:45 <Gustavo6046> Why don't arrays have a filter index? :/
22:35:39 <V453000> just paint something with some high brigtness spots and you win
22:36:38 <V453000> what are you sure about? :)
22:37:41 <andythenorth> which was useful feedback
22:37:49 <andythenorth> not sure shiny spots on same silhouette will be enough
22:38:44 <V453000> some of them are quite similar yeah
22:39:29 <V453000> the second medium hopper car is very similar to dumps, basically because of vertical lines and seemingly square silhouette
22:39:32 <andythenorth> more slopey, more grey on hoppers
22:39:41 <andythenorth> use CC inside dump cars, like original TTD sprite
22:39:50 <andythenorth> basically, original TTD sprite, but new
22:40:04 <V453000> maybe make the dump cars have the top 1px margin grayscale?
22:40:17 <andythenorth> nah, they’re like the ore cars in original
22:40:29 <andythenorth> somehow mission has changed to ‘remake original wagons, but refittable’
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22:40:35 <andythenorth> dunno how that happened :P
22:40:51 <V453000> that's fine but changing this doesn't change that
22:41:04 <V453000> the style of the vertical lines is kept, top line won't break that
22:41:19 <andythenorth> adding grey will just confuse with hoppers no?
22:41:23 <V453000> I think it would help the difference between the wagons, top being CC vs bottom being CC
22:41:34 <V453000> top is bright, bottom not
22:41:42 <andythenorth> I think some people only see colour, not where it is
22:42:07 <andythenorth> anyway, tank wagons are bigger problem
22:42:23 <andythenorth> if I can’t get gen 6 tank wagon, then I’m scrapping all gen 6 in horse
22:42:34 <V453000> maybe remove vertical lines from hoppers
22:42:35 <andythenorth> saves drawing like 36 wagons and 6 engines
22:42:56 * andythenorth will find logs where V453000 said add lines :P
22:43:03 <V453000> just make it look clean, elegant and modern
22:43:16 <V453000> andythenorth: sure, they are great, but if you already have them on dumps, it's fine
22:43:19 <andythenorth> hoppers need to be more ‘slopey'
22:43:24 <V453000> if it's noisy then hoppers won't need them
22:44:00 <andythenorth> anyway, tank cars wtf
22:44:23 <andythenorth> I can only think to paint gen 6 50% company colour
22:44:35 <andythenorth> like cola wagon in toyland
22:44:45 <andythenorth> which might look shit when the other 50% is recoloured to cargo, but eh
22:45:15 <Wolf01> Meh, left again the scroll cursor detached from the bottom... "why don't they talk so much today?"
22:46:32 <V453000> can try stripes or something
22:46:39 <V453000> NUTS has diagonal stripes which I can recommend against doing :D
22:47:02 <andythenorth> diagonals always look bad
22:47:05 <andythenorth> even in original
22:47:10 <andythenorth> trying to avoid diagonals :P
22:48:05 <supermop_> step up or step down stripe can work
22:48:30 <Wolf01> And now forgot TF in fast forward while I was reading the chat log
22:50:43 <andythenorth> oil, chemicals, petrol, rubber cargos
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22:53:34 <andythenorth> identical silhouette
22:55:46 <supermop_> Wolf01: my purchase menu is too long
22:56:27 <Wolf01> Is there a valid reason to be so long?
22:56:40 <Wolf01> Could you save space by using refits?
22:57:23 <supermop_> 3 power types * 9 truck types * 3 length types
22:57:42 <supermop_> * number of generations available at any given time
22:57:57 <andythenorth> reduce length types
22:58:07 <andythenorth> says person adding 3 wagon lengths to Horse :(
22:59:19 <supermop_> road train is optional by param
22:59:59 <V453000> maybe have the CC at the top ? :)
23:00:08 <V453000> this kind of looks like it's water inside :)
23:02:54 <andythenorth> I think it’s kind of cool
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23:10:15 <andythenorth> who plays past 2010 anyway? :P
23:10:57 <Wolf01> I usually do, it's right the time to upgrade the steam trains to diesel ones
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23:17:39 <Wolf01> Some of my work for today
23:18:22 <andythenorth> very detailed eh :)
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23:25:22 <andythenorth> that’s edibles tank car :)
23:25:54 <andythenorth> V453000: vertical lines for now I reckon
23:26:07 <andythenorth> whole set is just vertical stripes :P
23:26:29 <andythenorth> one trick pony :P
23:30:02 <andythenorth> frosch wanted me to add that
23:30:11 <andythenorth> it’s valid for tropic roster
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23:30:41 <Wolf01> Do a easter egg "octan" livery
23:30:50 <V453000> if you can draw it and make it look good, it's interesting for sure
23:34:18 <Wolf01> The quantity of F stuff which comes out when looking for trains or freight stuff is impressive
23:42:44 <Samu> i'm so inclined to change from divisor to divisor * 2
23:43:20 <Samu> seems to make more sense
23:43:24 <V453000> Wolf01: probably just personalized search :P
23:43:59 <Samu> anyway, thx for coming up with the efficiency suggestion supermop
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23:50:39 <Samu> and i've beem saying it for days already, guess it's time for v5
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continue to next day ⏵
