IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-17
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02:05:12 <supermop_> I am being lazy and reusing the truck beds for short old trucks
02:05:21 <supermop_> as wagons for industrial trams
02:06:27 <supermop_> but becuase those are 'stacked' behind the truck cab, they are like 2/8 'back' on the sprite sheet
02:06:56 <supermop_> so they show up floating behind their wheels when I use them as wagons
02:07:13 <supermop_> I wonder what the laziest solution is
02:08:18 <supermop_> add a 2nd template that positions them forward into the front of the sprite? that means really defining all the sprites again
02:09:35 <supermop_> shift them all over 2/8 in the .pngs and redefine there? that would be more work but maybe make it easier to add more recoloring support
02:10:03 <supermop_> I dont thing there is another way to shift a sprite other than the template
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03:09:08 <Gustavo6046> also good night my pals
03:09:26 <Gustavo6046> I could make a road FULL of buses, this game is awesome
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10:53:10 <V453000> it's been too long again
10:54:22 <Wolf01> Iz fall creator update yet? I would like to figure out if I belong to the first wave of testers
10:55:42 <Arveen> Windows 10 1709 16299.19
10:56:36 <Wolf01> Ok, both pc and lumia didn't find anything, phew
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10:57:46 <andythenorth> Wolf01: “after 2010, everything is intermodal"
10:57:48 <V453000> the the world ending today or?
10:57:56 <andythenorth> V453000: that was yesterday, red sun day
10:58:09 <Wolf01> Yes, I read about that
10:58:35 <andythenorth> so gen 6 freight (year 2020) in Horse is fucked
10:58:56 <andythenorth> just adding one more step of regular progression doesn’t work, for stats
11:00:18 <andythenorth> I solved similar problem for pax with whole new class of trains
11:00:26 <andythenorth> smash progression into pieces
11:01:41 <Wolf01> Mmmh, trying to invent future trains which looks realistic it's like the "Class problem: Italy has economic problems, how would you resolve that?... If economists can't do that, how could a high school student solve that?"
11:02:41 <andythenorth> 2020 is barely future though :D
11:02:48 <andythenorth> you can see it from here :P
11:03:45 <Wolf01> I think we hit a hard limit with the current implementation, you can switch to a different mean of transport like monorail, maglev, hyperloop... but then you will have again the "upgrade infrastructure and ALL THE TRAINS" problem
11:03:56 <andythenorth> I never understood that problem
11:03:59 <andythenorth> I play on small maps
11:04:22 <andythenorth> understood / experienced /s
11:04:37 <Wolf01> I don't even use monorail and maglev
11:04:56 <Wolf01> If I want to use maglev I start in 2050
11:05:52 <andythenorth> I could just knock speed limit off gen 5 :P
11:06:21 <andythenorth> I don’t want to add gen 6 wagons (I already added them, and have now deleted)
11:06:36 <andythenorth> but gen 6 upgraded engines without wagon upgrades….is weird
11:07:16 <V453000> systematically it's not a problem at all
11:07:22 <Wolf01> We need a tracktype which doesn't allow curves, so you need to make interchange stations and go zigzag through the entire map, and shoot trains at mach 3 between stations
11:07:36 <andythenorth> V453000: you think more TE and HP is a worthwhile upgrade?
11:07:39 <V453000> NUTS lvl3 wagon is there since idk, 1990, and you still get modern engines in 2020 or something
11:08:02 <V453000> but speed is obviously better for good feeling
11:08:06 <andythenorth> example 3600hp -> 4200hp, 498KN -> 557KN
11:08:12 <andythenorth> speed would only be 10mph
11:08:25 <V453000> 100mph is kind of boring low
11:08:34 <andythenorth> and already pax trains are 200mph at that point, so network has to be split
11:08:48 <andythenorth> I think in late game there is no way to avoid fucking with players network
11:08:57 <andythenorth> that kind of is the gameplay at that point
11:09:48 <andythenorth> optimum wagon size is 40, so going to like 80 or something is just dumb
11:10:53 <V453000> well you can always hook up passenger wagons to freight engine, or even better the grf can provide a pax train with the same speed as the freight
11:10:57 <Wolf01> Make it so in late game you start to shrink trains, new technologies allow to store 8x the amount of goods in a train car and you will end up with 1 tile trains, engine+wagon
11:11:02 <V453000> but possibly with better loading speed, capacity or something
11:11:18 <Wolf01> Ok, not realistic at all :P
11:11:35 <andythenorth> Wolf01: not unrealistic
11:11:44 <andythenorth> most freight train upgrades are about more capacity per unit length IRL
11:11:59 <andythenorth> TL is the most important thing in RL, similar to coop :P
11:12:14 <andythenorth> shorter TL, better network utilisation
11:12:34 <Wolf01> Meanwhile in transport fever I'm losing the shit on the new pax trains... one wagon running cost is more than the purchase price of the engine
11:12:41 <andythenorth> grf does provide like a slow pax train
11:12:47 <andythenorth> matched to freight
11:12:59 <andythenorth> also super-duper fast train, fucks your network up
11:13:05 <peter1139> I can't believe they retired the bubble car service here ;(
11:13:16 <andythenorth> peter1139: do you get a 139 instead?
11:13:28 <V453000> people usually either go full passengers (with the fast trains), go full freight (with only the slow trains), or mix it with the slow trains
11:13:32 <V453000> that's totally normal
11:13:46 <peter1139> It's a 165 instead.
11:14:13 * andythenorth watches train videos on exercise bike :o
11:14:41 <peter1139> That's the station, yeah.
11:15:13 <peter1139> Yeah, that's the one they no longer use :(
11:16:11 <peter1139> Heh, those people getting off are like, shit, that's my connection going.
11:17:59 <peter1139> That's something that bugs me about path signals, that they pretty much always show red.
11:18:46 <andythenorth> sprite for yellow? o_O
11:19:40 <V453000> it's a message to the player that they shouldn't build them
11:21:28 <andythenorth> V453000 comedian
11:21:47 <andythenorth> making grfs is weird
11:21:53 * andythenorth constantly confused by it
11:22:27 <peter1139> It was either in my day. You wrote in NFO or nothing.
11:22:45 <V453000> I'm confused why do I keep doing it
11:22:54 <V453000> then I reassure myself that I enjoy it and continue
11:24:08 <andythenorth> I keep banging my head
11:24:44 <andythenorth> need for logical stats progression seems to destroy interest
11:25:02 <V453000> well if that's the case then you should care about logical progression less :P
11:25:44 <andythenorth> I don’t care about it, but every time I try and break from it
11:27:21 <andythenorth> same in brix, you try and force it one way
11:27:27 <andythenorth> then it fights and goes the way it needs to
11:28:34 <V453000> well yeah but brix is a production of the shitflakes in my head
11:28:42 <V453000> anything can be 'right' there
11:29:01 <andythenorth> should I do a realism coloured train set? o_O
11:29:10 <andythenorth> at least then wagons look different per generation
11:29:37 <V453000> what does realism coloured even mean? :P
11:29:40 <andythenorth> problem is CC looks boss
11:29:58 <andythenorth> realism would be like....dunno
11:30:16 <andythenorth> I have HO trains in the loft
11:30:19 <andythenorth> and I theme by colour
11:30:47 <andythenorth> I have enough hues of box car that I can make nearly a full rainbow
11:35:35 <V453000> idk, I already use colours for so many things that the rest is always just kind of desaturated if possible
11:35:52 <V453000> player CC, wagon cargo colour, cargo colour, possibly second player CC
11:36:00 <V453000> that's a lot of shit for a wagon
11:36:11 <V453000> -> I will probably completely remove player CC1 and 2 from wagons
11:36:35 <andythenorth> I do either CC1 (random recolour to CC2) or cargo colour
11:37:03 <andythenorth> so gen 6 problem
11:37:30 <andythenorth> by gen 5, wagon pretty much fills frame, at any length
11:37:43 <andythenorth> making all generations smaller would make gen 1 ~invisible
11:38:00 <andythenorth> and if size doesn’t change, hard to tell generations apart
11:38:30 <V453000> making early wagons smaller is ok, later on not
11:38:35 <V453000> autoreplace doesn't add :P
11:39:15 <andythenorth> gen 1 is already pretty small
11:39:28 <andythenorth> like 4/8, and not many pixels high
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11:59:09 <andythenorth> maybe chibi more wagons
12:00:25 <andythenorth> no 8/8 until gen 6
12:00:29 <V453000> my ultimate answer to chibi will be 24/8 steamers with tenders
12:00:32 <andythenorth> if a gen 6 is necessary, then chibi
12:01:11 <V453000> and hopefully I won't run to frosch crying for grf specs
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14:14:49 <Wolf01> Upgrading bridges in TF makes you shit bricks :|
14:22:32 <V453000> nice I should try TF then
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15:45:26 <andythenorth> chibi is the only solution tbh
15:45:50 <V453000> :D nice discovery andythenorth
15:46:58 <andythenorth> all visual problems solved
15:47:17 <andythenorth> also it breaks any possibility that these sprites are realistic UK trains from 1990 :P
15:47:50 <V453000> ultimate win achieved
15:51:21 <andythenorth> also I might have to break colour rules
15:51:38 <andythenorth> like classes of wagons are supposed to always have identical colour scheme
15:51:51 <andythenorth> makes it hard to show difference
15:54:32 <supermop_> so frosch's livery code seems to sort-of work
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15:55:12 <supermop_> my z classes bought in 1978 all switch from 70s to 80s livery around 1980
15:55:41 <supermop_> but then did not switch from 80s to 90s livery at all in the 90s
15:56:16 <supermop_> also buying ~20 new trams in 1995ish yields some in 70s livery, some in 80s
15:57:59 <supermop_> random_switch seems arcane to me
15:58:39 <supermop_> also the 25% chance is effectively 100% over the course of a year for me
15:59:11 <supermop_> no tram was able to keep it's old livery for more than 2 months
15:59:36 <supermop_> might need to try on trams that are not forced to service
16:00:05 <supermop_> if it is going to be 100%, might as well just use a regular switch
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16:02:45 <Samu> I'm inclined to adjust the formula a little
16:04:07 <Samu> final_cost = cost_at_this_point + cost_at_this_point * length_of_parts_without_cost^2 / divisor
16:04:23 <Samu> will change divisor to divisor * 2 or divisor * 3
16:04:31 <Samu> so that default costs decrease
16:07:44 <V453000> that sounds pretty wtf supermop :)
16:08:15 <supermop_> V453000: I DREW ALL THESE LIVERIES I MUST SEE THEM
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19:34:22 <FLHerne> It looks like a strangely-proportioned cupboard, a shelf, and some weird bar
19:35:06 <FLHerne> I don't really see why you'd want those bits of furniture to be integrated, nor can I imagine ever wanting them in that arrangement
19:45:31 <V453000> supermop about 300 euros here max :)
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19:45:47 <V453000> with a fancy hanger on it
19:45:51 <V453000> without fancy hanger 150
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20:03:23 <andythenorth> chibi chibi chibi
20:08:18 <Gustavo6046> I want to do an OpenTTD-based game in Java, but with a futuristic setting. I know C++, but I'm not good with modding existing C++ projects, esp. big ones.
20:14:05 <Wolf01> Why am I so mind fucked? I started building another transformable SDF-1 :|
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20:26:05 <andythenorth> bah, plan failed
20:26:20 <andythenorth> I made gen 5 chibi so it looks different to gen 6
20:26:43 <andythenorth> but now it looks same as gen 2, 3, 4
20:26:58 <Gustavo6046> Over 700k expenses.
20:27:09 <andythenorth> Gustavo6046: that is not very big line
20:27:21 <Gustavo6046> You must have seen larger
20:27:37 <andythenorth> sounds expensive, but eh, might a currency thing
20:27:37 <Gustavo6046> But I have not ever gone further before.
20:27:45 <andythenorth> everyone starts somewhere :)
20:28:11 <Gustavo6046> How much profit do you think this line will give in the end?
20:28:31 <andythenorth> you building stations in the intermediate towns?
20:28:37 <Gustavo6046> Hopefully a lot. This distance should at least triple the medium-distance lines.
20:28:46 <Gustavo6046> Chintbridge actually has 6K pop.
20:28:48 <andythenorth> long distance pax usually makes high profit
20:29:05 <andythenorth> vanilla game, or using newgrfs?
20:29:52 <andythenorth> probably makes quite a lot of profit if you get the trains right
20:30:03 <andythenorth> V453000: can I rage quit yet? :x
20:35:19 <Gustavo6046> but I will need to make this a monorail if I want it to work
20:35:25 <Gustavo6046> AsiaStars can't go fast enough, right?
20:36:07 <Gustavo6046> Especially with the lots of wagons (required to maximize the left side of profit : operation costs ratio in long distances).
20:36:55 <andythenorth> regular trains can make profit over long distance
20:37:14 <andythenorth> but there is some limit where maglev is probably more profitable
20:37:31 <andythenorth> probably, knowing OTTD community, someone has made charts about it
20:38:23 <Gustavo6046> But if I make a bus from a side of the map to the other, it'll do n BRL/year; n < 0 :P
20:38:43 <Gustavo6046> But hey, it's already crossed it all!
20:38:56 <Gustavo6046> (''s' is for 'is', not 'has')
20:39:23 <Gustavo6046> andythenorth, I had to avoid lots of slopes, making it a tortuous path.
20:42:20 <Gustavo6046> The AsiaStar went with no cargo, and will return like so too.
20:42:33 <Gustavo6046> This will be a slow start, it seems...
20:42:57 <Gustavo6046> 1877 passengers and 401 mail bags await the train!
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20:52:01 <supermop_> cost for making that cabinet will be about $6500 USD
20:52:22 <supermop_> andythenorth: maybe?
20:52:47 <supermop_> grey, grey with 1 cc, grey with 2cc, 1cc, 1cc with 2cc
20:53:20 <andythenorth> 6.5k is not small change
20:53:39 <andythenorth> chibi basically wins me nothing eh
20:57:48 <andythenorth> every way I cut this, it’s fail
20:58:02 <andythenorth> I can reduce to 1 wagon type, and it’s still fail
20:58:11 <andythenorth> I can go chibi or not, fail
20:58:33 <andythenorth> I can have just one size of wagon, not 2, still fail
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21:04:17 <Gustavo6046> over 140K profit :D
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22:00:59 <supermop_> andythenorth: custom cabinetry and metal work
22:01:37 * andythenorth deletes more sprites
22:01:43 <andythenorth> this is why I do the – views only :P
22:01:57 <andythenorth> kind of in desperation territory
22:02:09 <andythenorth> deleting 50% of the wagons doesn’t actualy solve anything :P
22:03:49 <andythenorth> limiting Horse 1860-2010 would help :P
22:03:55 <andythenorth> instead of going to 2050
22:14:21 <supermop_> just use callback to increase HP and speed of 2010 train every 10 years
22:43:27 <supermop_> coaches/city buses?
22:43:45 <supermop_> same bus but refit to either coach or bus?
22:44:09 <supermop_> sprite stack composite on either one or two doors
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23:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i see little point in the refitting
23:16:49 <supermop_> i feel like my buses are too fast
23:17:08 <supermop_> but a slow city bus is a pain inter-town
23:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is not a refit
23:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that should be two busses
23:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> city bus: double capacity, half speed
23:57:33 <andythenorth> supermop_: what Eddi said :)
23:57:59 <andythenorth> that’s my $0.02 anyway :)
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