IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-16
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00:37:24 <supermop_> hmm idk what I am supposed to do for the random trigger callback
00:39:16 <supermop_> random_trigger: <the name of my lowest random switch>?
00:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that
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01:05:16 <supermop_> ok... my tiny electric tram motor
01:05:31 <supermop_> looks exactly like one of andy's heqs
01:05:38 <supermop_> and I drew it from scratch
01:11:18 <supermop_> that can't be comfortable for those 9 passengers in the crate
01:12:39 <supermop_> nor can it be good for the wagons to have the wheels totally separated like that
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06:19:01 <supermop_> accidentally made a mail tram that hauls two passenger carriages
06:19:13 <supermop_> might be worth keeping
07:56:50 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: the problem with that is that mail trams cannot load at passenger stops
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11:11:58 <peter1139> Can you supersize me?
11:25:21 <Wolf01> The only weird thing is that they use a VS based ide to make apps which creates the app starting from a database and the interface is html+js, while the code is c# (something like phonegap)
11:26:58 <Wolf01> I tried the evaluation version and: 1) no dark theme for the ide, 2) the apps are wonky
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12:30:43 <__ln__> yeah, better to use unencrypted wifi to avoid the vulnerability
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13:17:13 <OpenTTD_Newbie> Hello, I'am looking for some help for map generation. Playing on large map i can't get a nice balance of industries to spawn. Minimal is a bit too little for my taste and very low is way too much. Is there a way to set the amount of industry that spawns? I there a console command to spawn more industry randomly
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13:19:44 <Wolf01> OpenTTD_newbie_: scenario editor
13:21:22 <peter1139> That's a bit too manual...
13:21:51 <Flygon> I wonder if my mistake in OpenTTD is running freight run cycles that tend to run for 4-8 years.
13:21:53 <OpenTTD_newbie_> Can i just spawn an industry in a random location in scenario editor
13:21:56 <peter1139> OpenTTD_newbie_, are you happy with the number of towns?
13:22:04 <Flygon> And then I wonder why I have short-term profitability issues. :V
13:22:14 <OpenTTD_newbie_> Well town is a bit too much also mabye
13:22:35 <peter1139> OpenTTD_newbie_, I ask because adjusting the number of towns also affects the number of industries.
13:22:56 <OpenTTD_newbie_> So fewer town means less industries
13:23:00 <Flygon> (Also I'd love a setting between 'Minimal' and 'Too Low')
13:23:08 <Wolf01> Also disable "more than one industry of the same type per town"
13:23:21 <crem> Maybe it would make sense to reduce number of industries for "low". I had exactaly the same problem, "low" number of industries still felt too much.
13:23:45 <crem> So I ended up playing with "minimal" which is a bit too few.
13:24:45 <OpenTTD_newbie_> Yeah, with FIRS minimal only spawns one of each industry, and on large map it can really screw you over
13:24:52 <crem> It would probably be easy to tweak constants and recompile though.
13:25:06 <Wolf01> Eh, I play in maps where I have only one industry per type in the entire map, I don't think you should go lower than this and I feel it's the right number
13:25:52 <crem> 1 is too few for huge maps.
13:26:06 <crem> And if you set "low" rather than "minimal", it's too many.
13:26:11 <OpenTTD_newbie_> 4kx4k map having only one of each industry is quite hard. Would love if i could set the amount of primary ve secondary/teriary
13:26:25 <Flygon> (Noting in my 2k*2k Iceland game that having it set to 'Very Low' still has industries absolutely EVERYWHERE)
13:26:26 <Wolf01> Spawn fewer towns tith "lower" industries
13:27:04 <crem> I also doubt anyone ever sets it to nigher than "normal". So that setting feels like it has to be recalibrated.
13:27:10 <OpenTTD_newbie_> i think already have town set to minimal, but it still spans quite a lot of them
13:27:16 <Wolf01> I play 1024x64, very low number of towns and minimal number of industries
13:27:32 <peter1139> Basically 4kx4k is too big, and is just a joke.
13:28:57 <crem> Is number of industries proportional to area of the map?
13:29:11 <crem> I think it should grow slower than linear.
13:30:36 <Wolf01> For example, a 64x64 map with a grf (firs, ecs) is really hard to play, and to generate successfully
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15:26:23 <supermop> Wolf01: 64 with even some water is hard
15:31:15 <supermop> so i don't think the livery upgrade trigger thing works
15:32:06 <supermop> running a couple trams in and out of depot on fast forward last night for about 25 game years/covering 3-4 liveries, and didn't see any change
15:32:31 <supermop> but it is possible i did not use the callback correctly
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16:12:05 <supermop> also some things are really misaligned
16:12:37 <supermop> hmm can you change the template of a sprite without just redefining it as a different sprite?
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18:32:45 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 16 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <frosch123> you convert them to pixels to save space?
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18:37:33 <andythenorth> if vim is like emacs
18:37:41 <andythenorth> you probably never want to quit
18:37:52 <andythenorth> I worked with someone who ran their entire computer via emacs
18:37:57 <Wolf01> Eh, but are you on edit mode or command mode?
18:38:07 <Alberth> It's a "master" cheat sheet, they know how to quit the program :)
18:38:11 <andythenorth> I am usually on ‘wtf, how do I leave?’ mode
18:38:20 <andythenorth> I only get into vim by mistake :P
18:38:37 <andythenorth> ‘this is terrifying I hope I don’t break the repo'
18:38:43 <Alberth> it has some commands I didn't know :)
18:39:03 <Wolf01> I'm used to nano/pico, ctrl+key and the function guide on the bottom of the screen
18:39:14 <Alberth> maybe configure your EDITOR environment variable, andy :)
18:40:00 <Alberth> Wolf01: escape key, then :q! and an 'enter'
18:40:00 <andythenorth> such leet skills
18:41:05 <Alberth> something you once configure in your shell setup and then completely forget, andy :)
18:41:18 <Wolf01> But I was raised with Ms/IBM DOS, so Ctrl+key commands are more familiar to me
18:41:30 * andythenorth should google how to do it
18:41:52 <Wolf01> Also a fuckload of Fn hotkeys
18:42:02 <Wolf01> And ctrl+shift+f12 to save
18:42:19 <Alberth> I specifically picked vim for not having weird key combinations to press
18:42:46 <Alberth> or vi, at the time :p
18:42:54 <Wolf01> Oh, they changed to ctrl+s to save in notepad, finally, open is still ctrl+f123
18:43:26 <Wolf01> Isn't :q! a weird combination?
18:43:42 <Alberth> you can type each letter separately
18:44:01 <Alberth> instead of pressing several keys at the same time :)
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18:56:16 <andythenorth> like a fricking farm here
18:56:43 <Wolf01> At least we are not furry I hope
18:58:37 <supermop> i dont think the livery updates are working, but i may have messed up the callback
18:59:14 <frosch123> i didn't even know it was no longer called trolleybi
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19:33:03 <andythenorth> so cb36 seems to work to adjust wagon speed by date
19:33:10 <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ any reason I can’t rely on that?
19:35:34 <frosch123> you can't change properties by date
19:35:41 <frosch123> use last_service_date or something
19:36:24 <andythenorth> I remember your prior warning, so I was surprised :P
19:36:26 <frosch123> vehicles change speed when reloading the game, thus desync
19:36:38 <andythenorth> that is…unwanted :)
19:37:15 <andythenorth> presumably problem exists even if only checking year ?
19:37:49 <supermop> frosch123: at some point it felt weird to call it that when only 8 out of hundreds of vehicles are trolleybuses
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19:38:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: write a gs that stops all vehicles in december, and restarts them in january
19:38:45 <andythenorth> last_service_date is fine too
19:39:12 <andythenorth> I thought there were specific triggers for cb 36, but I seem to have imagined that
19:40:14 <supermop> frosch123: i might try to use last service date for liveries and drop the random
19:40:49 <supermop> i ran a tram for 25 years with a depot stop about every 40 days, and saw no livery upgrade
19:44:21 <andythenorth> I’m not sure that using cb36 to adjust wagon speeds is good
19:45:25 <andythenorth> also I’d need to check wagonspeedlimits
19:45:31 <andythenorth> and respect player choice
19:45:58 <andythenorth> nor sure that’s possible
19:49:24 <andythenorth> what problem am I solving again? o_O
19:51:00 <frosch123> integer train lengths?
19:51:23 <andythenorth> think that’s…different
19:51:33 <andythenorth> I was going to say ‘solved’, but in my test game…blah
19:52:15 <andythenorth> problem is that 6 generations of engine means 6 generations of wagon
19:52:37 <andythenorth> a) fills up buy menu (no reliable way to expire previous gen)
19:52:51 <andythenorth> b) hard to graphically show difference, whilst keeping consistent gestalt and colour scheme
19:54:04 <andythenorth> changing speed with cb 36 solves (b), makes zero difference for (a)
19:54:22 <andythenorth> assuming 3 or 4 generations not 6
19:55:21 <frosch123> why does the number of wagon gens have to match the number of engine generations?
19:59:07 <andythenorth> ‘have’ is a strong word
19:59:36 <andythenorth> more accurate: assuming a set design for freight & pax (faster) engine classes, it’s necessary to limit wagon speeds
19:59:56 <andythenorth> the set design might be flawed
20:00:11 <andythenorth> not too late to change, but seems to work ok in playing
20:01:51 <andythenorth> alternatives to wagon speeds....
20:02:18 <andythenorth> - use wagon attach cb (but I don’t want to prevent player using faster engine on freight, it just won’t go faster)
20:02:45 <andythenorth> - enforce requirement for caboose on freight train, and set speeds only on 6 generations of caboose, all other wagons unlimited
20:03:18 <andythenorth> - set speed on engine, depending on wagons (check user bits) and/or cargo refit (but requires complicated buy menu text)
20:03:57 <andythenorth> - set wagon speeds on cb36, changing when new engines are introduced, and have fewer generations
20:04:11 <andythenorth> - or just use wagon speeds and 6 generations (current implementation)
20:06:42 <Wolf01> Shit, turned my head to send 4 messages on telegram, back here monologue wall
20:08:39 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> speed limits <- bullshit? I would like more a train which recover speed fast than one that can travel at light speed and you need 4 engines to pull 25 wagons
20:09:03 <andythenorth> dunno that the game models that :)
20:10:34 <Wolf01> My trains usually can't reach even the wagon speed limit... slow engines or didn't think enough about the power
20:11:30 <andythenorth> do you have freight weight 1?
20:11:58 <Wolf01> I think something like 5
20:12:18 <Wolf01> But I think I set it lower, 2 or 3
20:12:59 * andythenorth tries 5 in test game
20:15:40 <andythenorth> I like it ok, but I don’t love it
20:15:46 <andythenorth> and that probably means it sucks :P
20:18:41 <frosch123> supermop: that won't work
20:25:22 <andythenorth> so you all play with wagon speed limits off? o_O
20:26:29 <frosch123> supermop: the graphics selection only checks the built_year, never the random bits
20:26:35 <Wolf01> No, I play with them on, but I play also with track speed limits and weight multiplier
20:26:56 <frosch123> also, using "random_trigger:" in "graphics" voids all guarantees
20:27:47 <frosch123> supermop: i may not know what you try to achieve
20:28:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: probably depends on the set, but wagon speed limits used to restrict engine choice, so removed gameplay
20:28:20 <supermop> uh just that sometimes a tram with livery A get repainted to new livery B
20:29:13 <supermop> i think i follow the long chain of random switches you wrote
20:29:32 <supermop> but i dont really understand where the tram should enter that chain
20:30:02 <frosch123> supermop: remove "random trigger", and replace all references of "switch_se2_style" with "maybe_se2_B"
20:30:32 <frosch123> well, there is only one reference, in line 71
20:30:46 <supermop> do i need the switch_se2_... at all?
20:30:58 <supermop> the livery by build year
20:31:07 <frosch123> switch_se2_style is not needed
20:31:14 <supermop> the random switches will handle it at all
20:33:53 <andythenorth> how about build trains like trams?
20:34:00 <andythenorth> integral unit, engine + fixed carriages?
20:34:05 <andythenorth> shorter buy menu overall :P
20:35:34 <supermop> andythenorth: my tram menu is much longer
20:35:57 <supermop> you will get combinatorial explosion
20:36:15 <supermop> instead of one deltic
20:37:23 <supermop> you get deltic with 8 carriages, deltic with 10 carriages, ... deltic with 8 mail carriages, deltic with one mail and 7 passenger...
20:37:52 <supermop> then all of the above for every type of engine
20:38:12 <andythenorth> they’re all just 2 tiles :P
20:41:10 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> how about build trains like trams? <- supermop, what I was saying some days ago?
20:43:50 <andythenorth> so many dimensions to trains :P
20:45:10 <Wolf01> We had this exact discussion
20:45:29 <Wolf01> With the usual "if andy..."
20:47:43 <supermop> andythenorth: i wish i could build trams and trucks like trains, would shorten my buy menu a lot
20:48:18 <frosch123> why is length of purchase list still an issue?
20:48:23 <frosch123> we have "hide engines"
20:48:56 <andythenorth> fair point though
20:49:24 <andythenorth> issue is findability, not length per se
20:50:00 <Wolf01> Could we have a purchase list like a tree view (like refit list)? And decide to group by cargo or by generation?
20:50:24 <frosch123> you can filter by cargo
20:50:32 <frosch123> quite annoying to use though
20:50:56 <frosch123> why would you build an older generation?
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20:52:21 <andythenorth> usability failure?
20:52:47 <frosch123> anyway, if finability is an issue, add icons
20:53:07 <Wolf01> With my play style a vehicle which run 50km/h, with 20t capacity, and $6000 running cost is preferable to a vehicle which go 56km/h 22t $9000
20:53:40 <frosch123> livestock car should be a refit option fo rhte box car
20:53:57 <frosch123> i can hardly distinguish open car and hopper car, no idea what a dump car is
20:54:17 <frosch123> tank, silo and edibles should also be refit
20:54:40 <frosch123> wtf is fruit&vegetables car?
20:54:50 <frosch123> is it refridgerated or box car?
20:54:58 <andythenorth> it’s fruit & vegetables car :)
20:55:15 <andythenorth> aim is lots of wagons
20:55:43 <andythenorth> then I had to extend past 1990
20:55:49 <andythenorth> started losing :P
20:56:23 <andythenorth> it’s all just too much :P
20:57:05 <Wolf01> After 90 is just intermodal with refits and a lot of cargo sprites
20:58:22 <supermop> frosch123: my problem is that you might have 1 type of truck/cab but 10 types of body or trailer for it
20:59:07 <Wolf01> Change the whole graphic along with the selected refit?
20:59:27 <andythenorth> supermop: I tried that in Hog
20:59:44 <andythenorth> original game got it right, lots of body types
21:00:06 <andythenorth> truck part is almost irrelevant, body style + cargo sprites are the interesting bit in game
21:00:22 <andythenorth> ~most sets get this wrong :D :x
21:00:35 <andythenorth> NUTS got closest, but in a very V453000 way
21:01:07 <supermop> andythenorth: lost of body types is fine, but would be nice if you could buy the trailers separately
21:01:17 <andythenorth> nah, it comes to the same
21:01:31 <andythenorth> I have been into that rabbit warren :)
21:01:47 <supermop> get a new tractor every few years but can still use the same old flatbed
21:02:17 <supermop> road train with 3 or 4 trailers? buy whatever you want
21:02:32 <supermop> mix different type of trailers while at it
21:03:47 <supermop> if i have a circa 1990 diesel truck, trolley truck, and dual mode truck, i could have 3 tractors and 9 trailers, instead of 27 trucks
21:25:49 <andythenorth> current preference: generations add more capacity, speed limit is magic
21:25:54 <andythenorth> but which magic? o_O
21:26:00 <andythenorth> slaved to engine ID (possible)
21:26:17 <andythenorth> slaved to last_service_date (possible, but I have servicing disabled)
21:28:52 <frosch123> engine purchase date?
21:29:33 <andythenorth> interesting idea
21:29:43 <andythenorth> engine can only be purchased in depot, right? o_O
21:30:04 * andythenorth wonders about buying engines in stations :P
21:30:30 <frosch123> assuming you only buy new wagons together with new engines, it saves a lot of clikcs
21:31:12 <andythenorth> basically I want to try ‘autoreplace engine, wagons get faster'
21:31:27 <andythenorth> there are probably multiple ways to implement
21:40:49 <Alberth> wagons have no limit, engine does
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22:36:53 <andythenorth> maybe just 4 wagon generations
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