IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-14
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08:36:57 <andythenorth> another case where generations look the same :P
08:38:21 <andythenorth> edibles tank cars and refrigerated cars are hauled by pax engines
08:38:38 <andythenorth> which will look odd with train 24
08:43:36 <Alberth> it does, just like the default set with farms
08:43:57 <Alberth> any particular reason the blue line must be horizontal?
08:44:26 <Alberth> although I also had the thought, "why do we have these tankers at all?"
08:45:18 <Alberth> but euhm, I don't expect food to be delivered by the gallon :p
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08:46:34 <Alberth> have less generations?
08:47:20 <Alberth> it's not a rule to be completely symmetrical everywhere
08:47:49 <Alberth> hmm, place top entry holes off-center? ie not symmetrical
08:48:24 <Alberth> or don't have them at all in some case?
08:51:56 <andythenorth> I wondered about inverting white and CC for some generations
08:54:19 <Alberth> vertical CC, several lines is possible
08:54:44 <Alberth> although some form of diagonal would break the pattern more
08:55:10 <Alberth> but that may cause trouble with your other wagons
08:56:46 <andythenorth> RL has some guides
09:03:41 <Alberth> latter has some nice CC a the bottom :)
09:30:30 <andythenorth> not convinced though
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09:45:09 <Alberth> yeah, looks like it's partly filled :p
09:45:27 <Alberth> make some vertical white in it?
09:48:47 <andythenorth> I think I need to keep the colour scheme, and vary the silhouette
10:04:53 <Alberth> quite subtle, but nice :)
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11:30:16 <Eddi|zuHause> which tank do horses prefer to eat, then, if the tanks are edible by horses?
11:31:16 <Alberth> filled tanks, of course
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12:36:52 * andythenorth has design problem
13:03:11 <andythenorth> likely multiple related
13:03:14 <andythenorth> treatable as one
13:03:30 <andythenorth> logical progression means freight trains at 140mph by 202
13:08:27 <andythenorth> 1. looks daft, freight wagons with high speed pax engines
13:08:39 <andythenorth> 2. road vehicles are 80mph for same game date
13:10:21 <Wolf01> So you want to stick to reality but still don't want much realism?
13:14:19 <andythenorth> let’s say it’s about a 50% connection
13:14:57 <andythenorth> IRL freight train speeds are 75mph, or rarely 80-90mph
13:15:11 <andythenorth> 110mph is ok in game
13:16:32 <Wolf01> Make multistorey intermodal cars
13:17:26 <Wolf01> So speed become relative, and you double the capacity instead
13:19:39 <andythenorth> I considered higher capacity instead of higher speed
13:21:30 <andythenorth> I could use the train air drag property :P
13:21:59 <andythenorth> it’s a non-trivial factor for freight train speeds
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14:24:07 <Samu> i'm testing the results of my patch, and it's... impressive
14:24:25 <Wolf01> You filed for bankruptcy in 2 years?
14:24:53 <Samu> remember airport infrastructure costs?
14:25:23 <andythenorth> I hate designing top-end of a roster
14:25:59 <Samu> there is no luxury of having trains waiting to load now, running costs don't allow it now
14:27:18 <Samu> have to compare these profits with trucks
14:28:00 <Samu> i kinda like it that I have to care about the number of wagons on a train
14:28:43 <Samu> you wouldn't make excess number of trucks if they have to wait to load, so trains now are getting the same treatment
14:31:08 <andythenorth> why do refrigerated cars and edibles tank cars go at pax train speeds?
14:33:01 <andythenorth> also it’s just a bit of variety eh
14:35:35 <andythenorth> and you can run food into towns on same tracks as pax/mail
14:38:40 <andythenorth> dunno, it all seems a bit ‘blah’
14:39:04 <andythenorth> it’s the same in the dragon games
14:39:12 <Wolf01> You don't run freight in cities by train, you know
14:39:23 <andythenorth> the first 10 or so dragon classes are really interesting
14:39:34 <andythenorth> when you collect the 51st class of dragon
14:40:50 * andythenorth wonders if it can be solved by pretending game starts in 2020
14:46:11 <andythenorth> problem is fricking high speed pax trains
14:46:14 <andythenorth> they mess up the roster
14:46:34 <andythenorth> from 1860-1985, there is a consistent pattern
14:46:47 <andythenorth> small fast, big fast, small freight, big freight
14:47:23 <andythenorth> but all modern fast pax trains have pointy engine things at both ends
14:47:35 <andythenorth> this looks stupid hauling freight
14:53:17 <andythenorth> maybe the pointy things are some extra pax-only class
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15:02:01 <Wolf01> Let's check some real life suggestions
15:03:24 <andythenorth> trying to figure out whether to split mail / freight
15:03:33 <andythenorth> currently mail cars refit to freight
15:03:41 <andythenorth> and mail cars go at pax speeds
15:03:52 <andythenorth> so you have super-fast pointy trains hauling explosives or vehicle parts :P
15:08:37 <Wolf01> Real life says really fast freight trains it's useless
15:18:09 <andythenorth> maybe I should split pax/mail
15:18:21 <andythenorth> hog and sam don’t combine them
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16:27:52 <Samu> heh, i thought the impact of inflation would be terribad, but apparently it's still under control
16:36:15 <supermop_> what to do about inscrutable slack message from boss at 11:59 pm
16:37:11 <supermop_> that seems to be a screed about not sending out some material, when said boss was copied on the email sending it out, and even replied to the thread
16:37:47 * supermop_ is thinking the answer is 'quit job'
16:39:20 * andythenorth thinks no HST for Brit Horse
16:39:33 <supermop_> it should be all HSTs
16:39:42 <andythenorth> I can replace it with something funnner
16:39:50 <andythenorth> an actual engine
16:40:10 <supermop_> HST = best brit industrial design
16:40:15 <andythenorth> I know but it’s bad in game :P
16:40:18 <supermop_> way better than a dyson
16:40:25 <andythenorth> what about an iphone?
16:40:29 <supermop_> maybe better than an e-type
16:40:30 <andythenorth> iphone is quite boring actually
16:40:47 <supermop_> ives is a bad designer
16:40:51 <andythenorth> what engine then, for 1990 or so, fast pax
16:41:04 <andythenorth> got that already, electric
16:41:10 <andythenorth> either class 67-ish
16:41:19 <andythenorth> the dual-headed thing is too weird
16:41:26 <andythenorth> and there’s no way to force it to pax-only
16:41:44 <supermop_> let people buy two if they really want
16:42:11 <supermop_> or you could just do a dyson vacuum
16:42:23 <andythenorth> could do an upgraded class 50, and call it dyson
16:42:59 <andythenorth> the set progression relies on ‘fast diesel’ rather than ‘pax train'
16:43:06 <andythenorth> so HST just doesn’t fit right
16:46:45 <andythenorth> I could do the wagon-attach callback I guess
16:46:50 <andythenorth> and only allow pax coachs
16:52:48 <supermop_> why can't one of the buffered 43's pull hoppers?
17:17:37 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I don't think back-to-back pair of power cars would look too strange on freight
17:19:58 <Alberth> what makes you think reality is not weird?
17:22:02 <andythenorth> FLHerne: is that photoshopped :)
17:22:36 <FLHerne> GWR use 57s (re-engined 47s) on the sleeper, but they're not especially reliable
17:22:56 <FLHerne> And there aren't exactly a lot of spare locos out west anymore
17:23:02 <supermop_> so.. the 2x 43s are the backup?
17:23:26 <FLHerne> So that happens quite often, because there /are/ a ton of HST power cars to borrow
17:23:52 <FLHerne> Well, a couple of times a year afaict
17:24:00 <supermop_> so why not just use the 43s?
17:24:40 <andythenorth> I found that one already :)
17:25:00 <FLHerne> supermop_: They don't have a standard ECS supply
17:25:58 <FLHerne> supermop_: They looked at rewiring all the sleeper stock to work with HST power (three-phase 470V AC rather than ~1000V DC), but apparently it wasn't worthwhile
17:26:18 <FLHerne> Anyway, there haven't been any spare HST powercars until very recently
17:36:32 <andythenorth> well I am no less puzzled
17:36:45 <andythenorth> the roster has a design, and the HST doesn’t fit :P
17:40:06 <andythenorth> maybe I should fix the railcars
17:42:12 <andythenorth> I’m splitting pax and parcels railcars
17:42:20 <andythenorth> shall I call parcels Scooby Doo? :P
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18:30:34 <andythenorth> so wagon attach callback….stupid and annoying?
18:30:56 <andythenorth> (that’s the one that limits which wagons can be hauled by which engines)
18:39:13 <frosch123> better than start/stop callback
18:39:37 <supermop_> what if it was only stop callback
18:39:56 <supermop_> "can't stop this train: it lacks a brake van"
18:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the worst part about is is that you can trivially circumvent it
18:42:17 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: there exist wagons in real life for that
18:43:46 <andythenorth> supermop: I need a fake 1990s fast diesel
18:43:56 <andythenorth> probably end up with a class 67, but that’s borings
18:44:23 <supermop_> if its fake, just take a box with a sloping cab on one or both ends
18:44:48 <andythenorth> probably a trademark :P
18:44:56 <andythenorth> also dyson is a nickname for class 92 :P
18:45:09 <supermop_> trademarks are specific to markets
18:45:36 <andythenorth> yeah, it’s trademarked for toys and games
18:46:00 <andythenorth> kids have toy dysons
18:46:07 <andythenorth> we have toy Henry also :P
18:46:33 <supermop_> do they have toy hand dryers?
18:46:48 <andythenorth> probably sell like hot cakes
18:47:04 <supermop_> henry shop vac is basically a toy already
18:47:14 <andythenorth> let’s fake something
18:47:47 <andythenorth> refurbished hoover
18:47:53 <andythenorth> or a re-engined class 47
18:48:28 <andythenorth> previous gen pax engine is ‘wizzo’ (class 42 / 52 hybrid)
18:49:13 <supermop_> does it have to be early 90s?
18:50:08 <andythenorth> I just added ‘Plastic Postbox’ for mail :P
18:50:47 <supermop_> hopefully players dont think it is only for stuck trains
18:51:19 <supermop_> going to get some lunch
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20:38:11 <supermop_> hmm maybe I should re-order p list
20:39:29 <supermop_> electric trams, diesel trams, then electric mail trams, then diesel mail trams
20:40:02 <supermop_> electric pax, electric mail, diesel pax, diesel mail?
20:40:42 <supermop_> or elec. pax, elec mail, elect articulated pax, elect articulated mail .....
20:40:53 <supermop_> i wonder how egrvts does it
20:41:59 <supermop_> they are separate trams
20:42:07 <supermop_> in both egrvts and my grf
20:42:35 <supermop_> RVs that change between passengers and cargo don't work well due to how roadstops work
20:44:39 <supermop_> egrvts seems to go all pax, then all mail
20:45:25 <supermop_> not sure how ill divide between diesel and electric though
21:06:22 <andythenorth> if a roster is Brit-ish
21:06:29 <andythenorth> and the UK doesn’t have fast passenger trains
21:06:39 <andythenorth> players complain there’s no fast trains
21:07:07 <andythenorth> but the stats progression doesn’t permit them
21:07:34 <andythenorth> the previous electric engine is 3,200hp
21:07:46 <andythenorth> and hp goes up in 800hp incremements
21:07:57 <andythenorth> previous speed is 110mph, and it goes up in 15mph increments
21:08:51 <andythenorth> sudden huge stats bumps mess up the game
21:08:57 <andythenorth> that’s what railtypes are for
21:09:38 <andythenorth> I am thinking again about adding high speed rail
21:12:21 <supermop_> horse is the realm of idealized BR-ish dreams
21:12:30 <andythenorth> it’s getting horribly realistic tbh
21:12:34 <supermop_> so a 93-ish loco would make sense
21:13:09 <supermop_> I assume horse runs in a dream world where steel and coal are still nationalized
21:13:50 <andythenorth> you should try a nightly
21:13:53 <supermop_> how else does a steel mill get built in the middle of nowhere and sit idle for decades until you get around to serving it
21:13:53 <andythenorth> it’s not playable really :P
21:14:21 <andythenorth> hmm, maybe some very fast EMUs with pax on the engine
21:14:44 <andythenorth> not sure what problem I’m solving :)
21:14:50 <andythenorth> freight is capped at 100mph anyway :)
21:15:01 <andythenorth> I should add more railcars, they are easy :P
21:15:32 <supermop_> still cant decide how to stack up my tree of switches
21:16:55 <andythenorth> I don’t want to persuade you to templating :)
21:17:06 <andythenorth> but the switch order only matters for compile times :)
21:17:13 <andythenorth> [and personal satisfaction]
21:17:15 <supermop_> not going to happy until wife has more free time
21:17:40 <supermop_> if I teach myself python now, ill be bombarding her with questions
21:18:26 <andythenorth> templating first needs familiarity with writing it manually anyway
21:19:31 * andythenorth has some ideas, might be more than one
21:28:01 <andythenorth> high speed passenger electric units
21:28:41 <andythenorth> 2-car units, with magic when multiple units are in a consist
21:35:38 <supermop_> I wonder what 'date_of_last_service' returns if vehicle has not yet services
21:39:04 <supermop_> also maybe I should make livery random after 2050 or 2100, to break up monotony of 'last' livery going on forever
21:39:53 <supermop_> presumably, in 2100, a 1980s tram is a preserved novelty, and riders would be interested in all the various historic liveries it carried
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21:41:26 <supermop_> I'm thinking of shying away from frosch's code to just make livery based on build/depot year absolutely, with no random
21:53:49 <supermop_> if date of last service returns YYYY, MM, DD
21:54:07 <supermop_> can I make a decision only on the MM, DD?
21:54:45 <supermop_> like, and tram that goes to depot on may 5th (on any year) gets a special livery?
22:03:49 <andythenorth> someone’s birthday?
22:04:06 <supermop_> in this case the z-class's birthday
22:04:21 <supermop_> but just a way to hide an ultra rare special livery
22:05:26 <supermop_> easier to give it 1 in 256 change to randomly appear, but date feels more special
22:05:42 <supermop_> I think ive dropped the idea though
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22:42:12 <andythenorth> supermop: so I’m adding some express pax electric units
22:42:29 <andythenorth> wondering whether to go all way back to brighton belle?
22:49:46 <Greyfur> Anyone coding vehicles in NML?
22:51:32 <Wolf01> Back, better late than never, lost in the mist
22:56:42 * andythenorth is coding vehicles
22:57:08 <Wolf01> I'm stuffed of japanese food
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23:17:21 <Wolf01> Slashdot: "What Will Replace Computer Keyboards?"... other computer keyboards
23:25:31 <supermop_> implementing frosch's magic for repainting
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23:43:01 <supermop_> well my implementation is almost twice as long
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