IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-13
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09:07:21 <V453000> very nice but I think it could use some sort of shading at the ends
09:07:26 <V453000> it looks flat horizontally
09:07:36 <V453000> at the end I would expect some darkening or brightening or something
09:08:49 <andythenorth> I will try pissing around with some highlights
09:17:44 <andythenorth> I have to draw another two generations also :P
09:17:49 <andythenorth> tank wagons don’t have doors even
09:19:34 <Arveen2> clicking that video with a headset on and sound set to 90% is not a good idea
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11:07:44 <Wolf01> Fook humidity, fish swimming in the air :|
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16:07:29 <supermop> locomotives coded but not yet drawn
16:08:04 <supermop> i added switches to chose between all the liveries i want to draw
16:13:24 <Alberth> ha, invisble engines :)
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17:04:50 <Wolf01> I don't know why, but the coal one looks bigger
17:16:38 <Wolf01> The truck with iron ore seem it carries less stuff than the coal one on top right
17:17:57 <supermop> oh thats a ways above
17:18:10 <supermop> i think it is because the inside of the hopper is dark grey
17:18:29 <supermop> so the last 1-px of empty hopper space looks like more coal
17:19:27 <supermop> i guess i could lighten the inside of the hopper, but then gravel might have the same problem
17:20:25 <Wolf01> Make iron ore fill the whole hopper instead of leaving 1px of border
17:21:21 <supermop> ooh its not a bug its a feature
17:21:51 <supermop> i ore is heavier so same number of tons fills less of hopper
17:22:50 <supermop> hmm do i want liveries to be random, or based on build date? or last service date?
17:23:44 <supermop> do old trams get new livery ever?
17:24:02 <supermop> irl they gradually do as they come in for service
17:24:26 <supermop> but some keep old livery for years
17:25:48 <supermop> based on build date gives interesting effect where each towns trams might differ based on when then received new trams, even if the model of tram is the same
17:26:42 <supermop> i guess i could also allow refit to whatever livery you want
17:27:46 <Alberth> some people freak out if they can't control the livery to whatever is supposed to be used in a city
17:28:53 <supermop> the trams and liveries are not real though
17:29:04 <supermop> only real-world 'inspired'
17:29:30 <supermop> one of them looks like a sweatshirt i had in the 90s
17:30:58 <supermop> maybe ill use variable 'company_type' so that only AI can get cool liveries
17:35:47 <Alberth> we are a bit pretentious in thinking we are not an artificial life form :p
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17:41:08 <supermop> looking at this i can't see how i would have a date specific result like i want
17:41:45 <supermop> it seems like i could make it so that each time a tram goes to depot, it gets some random new livery
17:42:45 <supermop> but not have say, "40% chance to receive current_year livery, 60% chance to keep whatever livery already had"
17:45:29 <supermop> as i want to make sure that a tram never reverts to an older style
17:45:52 <supermop> like if tram comes into the depot with 90s livery and then leaves with 80s livery
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17:50:03 <supermop> i don't think i understand
17:50:41 <supermop> how does the tram remember it's current livery?
17:51:25 <Wolf01> You have one random to select a livery based by year, and another random to select the livery based on the previous random or a new one, at least this is what I understood about it
17:57:56 <supermop> is there a way for the random trigger to only randomly trigger
17:58:16 <supermop> like it only actually triggers 40% of the time?
18:00:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd need storage for that
18:01:21 <supermop> like bitmask(TRIGGER_VEHICLE_SERVICE, TRIGGER_???, TRIGGER_ALL_NEEDED)
18:01:51 <supermop> where trigger_??? is just some random that doesn't seem to exist
18:02:02 <supermop> but would be nice if it did
18:02:12 <Wolf01> That looks like an event
18:02:24 <supermop> even if it was just 50/50 0 or 1
18:02:38 <supermop> the even is going to depot
18:02:57 <supermop> tram doesn't get repainted out on the street
18:03:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there's an undocumented trigger callback (1? 2? something like that), you could do fancy magic there
18:03:29 <supermop> do i have to use nfo?
18:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't base your decision on random bits there
18:04:12 <Wolf01> I would like an online tool for doing OTTD stuff... it would be cool to debug without compiling and firing up the game, loading grfs, prepare the things you need to see
18:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (because if you decide to not trigger, you have no chance to undo that decision)
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18:05:25 <Wolf01> You can trigger to "do nothing" maybe
18:05:35 <supermop> Wolf01: thats what i want
18:05:58 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: seems like nml has "random_trigger" callback
18:06:07 <supermop> but i don't think i can return 'do nothing' as a livery
18:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: note that if you use that, all triggers you put in your other random decisions are ignored
18:06:54 <supermop> this is over my head
18:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: normally, when a trigger happens, the game traverses the "default" decision chain, and on every random switch it finds there, it triggers the appropriate bits mentioned there
18:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: if you define "random_trigger" callback, it ignores the default chain and does this chain instead
18:09:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have to duplicate the random switches for that callback
18:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and possibly all relevant other decisions
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18:53:17 <supermop> ok that might me a pain
18:53:50 <supermop> the only other random thing these trams do other than livery is which end the pantograph is on
18:55:23 <supermop> do RVs have any kind of storage?
18:58:55 <supermop> what is the 32 day callback?
18:59:38 <supermop> does it just return 1 one day out of 32? is it every 32 days counting from day 0 or from day vehicle was 'born'
19:00:41 <supermop> ~3% chance of new livery might be ok, but feels low for trams that do not regularly service
19:01:53 <supermop> on short lines where i have depot as terminus, tram might service 6-10 times a year, but on a loop line it may only service for auto renew
19:02:36 <supermop> i assume other players have trams visit the depot at most 1-2 times a year
19:09:11 <supermop> oh. the 70s tram gets extra doors if build after 1980
19:09:17 <supermop> but thats not random
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19:33:50 <supermop> ugh idk what im going to do
19:35:17 <supermop> the random_switch page of docs doesn't make itclear to me where random_trigger callback goes
19:37:38 <frosch123> random triggers are probably the second hardest thing after stations :)
19:38:02 <frosch123> anyway, you put the triggers directly into the random_switch
19:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> all callbacks go in the graphics block
19:38:11 <frosch123> and the random_switch must be in the graphics chain
19:38:56 <frosch123> if you want to randomise a callback result, you still need a random_switch in the graphics chain for linking the rerandomisation trigger
19:39:10 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: like random_trigger: random_switch ?
19:40:29 <supermop> frosch123: i am trying to come up with a way where by old trams have some chance of getting new livery paint in depot
19:40:48 <frosch123> rule 1: DO NOT USE "random_trigger"
19:40:49 <supermop> but where they never get an old livery as new paint
19:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you forgot rule 0: "do not listen to eddi" :p
19:41:37 <supermop> so they randomly decide to either 1: keep current livery, or 2: receive the 'new' livery for the current year
19:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i sort of tried that in CETS by treating the random bits as a delay between new livery appearing and repainting
19:42:13 <frosch123> i don't think that is possible
19:42:48 <Eddi|zuHause> which has a whole load of problems
19:42:50 <supermop> i cant figure out a way to have a switch have a 'do nothing option'
19:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> like accessing the random bits in a normal formula
19:43:14 <supermop> the only way would seem to be randomly decide whether to traverse the switch at all
19:43:25 <frosch123> hmm, oh, i have an idea, it works with gray code
19:43:43 <supermop> what am i getting myself into here
19:43:58 <frosch123> gray code is a method to count while only ever changing a single bit for incrementing/decrementing
19:44:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and rerandomizing between different generations is also tricky
19:44:12 <frosch123> that allows you to "count" by rerandomising a single bit
19:44:44 <frosch123> supermop: so, how many generations?
19:44:59 <supermop> most trams have 4 liveries
19:45:08 <supermop> but only 3 regularly used
19:45:33 <frosch123> aww, then there is a easier solution without gray code :/
19:45:33 <supermop> 'livery A' is special, only appears if built during exclusive preview
19:45:45 <supermop> however, one tram has 8 liveries
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27927 trunk/src/lang/french.txt (2017-10-13 19:45:40 +0200 )
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> french: 6 changes by glx
19:45:49 <frosch123> why do the best solutions never have a usecase?
19:45:56 <supermop> because i went crazy drawing them
19:46:29 <supermop> frosch123: i am happy to draw more and more and more liveries
19:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, would be way easier if there were storage
19:47:27 <frosch123> ok, next question: what should be the probabiliy for upgrading the livery in every depot visit?
19:47:42 <supermop> hmm something between 10 and 40 %
19:47:50 <supermop> i'd need to test it to see
19:48:08 <frosch123> ok, i'll make an example for 25%
19:48:25 <supermop> i have some lines where trams are in the depot almost every 30 days, but i assum most trams go to depot 1-2 times per year
19:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> 50% needs one bit, 25% needs two bits, 12.5% or 37.5% need 3 bits
19:49:31 <supermop> i guess i should say 31.25% to be difficult then
19:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i could imagine a few ways to abuse triggers to get this behaviour, but it might still be easier to allow STORE/LOAD acces to the random bits directly
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20:17:20 <supermop> man adding sprites for drive-on-left is going to be a pain
20:31:01 <andythenorth> supermop: “don’t”? :)
20:32:46 <frosch123> hmm, i think it is incomplete
20:33:16 <frosch123> i need to downgrade vehicle which are built as gen1 with inital random bits saying "upgraded"
20:42:01 * frosch123 probably scared him away :p
20:44:52 <supermop> what is #define YEAR_ etc is that something you can do in nml?
20:49:55 <Eddi|zuHause> those are preprocessor commands
20:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> if you run your file through the c-preprocessor (cpp)
21:00:56 <supermop> i wonder if i can write this thing out just once per generation of trams rather than per model of tram
21:01:33 <supermop> like so all the results are 'Gen 3 livery B' etc
21:03:04 <supermop> there isn't a way i can think of for the switch in the tram graphics area to get 'gen 3 livery A' from the other switches and do anything meaningful with it
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21:03:54 <supermop> ie so that 'gen 3 livery A' is one spritegroup for a 1 car tram, and a different one for the parts of a 3 car tram
21:03:58 <andythenorth> but it’s not the right problem to solve
21:06:45 <supermop> right solution to the right problem would have been 'don't have various liveries'
21:06:54 <supermop> but too late i already drew them
21:09:09 <andythenorth> is your problem manually writing the switches?
21:10:54 <supermop> that isn't a problem so much as a feeling of efficiency or propriety
21:12:15 <supermop> if all the trams of a certain body style have the same 4 styles of livery, it 'feels' right that they all use the same mechanism to decide which livery they receive
21:13:08 <supermop> ofc i can put frosch123's chain of switches once per tram, and that may be better even, allowing finer control of the years for each style
21:13:24 <supermop> but something about it feels clunky
21:24:13 <andythenorth> doesn’t fit Horse
21:24:29 <andythenorth> ha ha it actually is 5/8
21:24:41 * andythenorth just guessed without counting studs
21:25:06 <andythenorth> hmm 6/8 including buffers :P
21:25:22 <supermop> the deck is 22 studs not 20
21:29:28 <andythenorth> supermop: so the switch thing…you’re opening a box labelled ‘templating’ :P
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22:29:45 <supermop> frosch123: sorry i am meaning to try your code, but i have to fill in lots of code for the liveries themselves and the trams to use them first
22:30:39 <frosch123> the more graphics the more complex :)
22:30:50 <frosch123> there is a reason why andy does python magic
22:37:02 <supermop> i need to do some recoloring on my open wagons too
22:37:17 <supermop> which idk how to do, but need to get these trams working first
22:46:09 <Wolf01> Need more high level language or a dedicated ide
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22:49:08 <V453000> I will also try to do some pythony pythoning with my next project
22:49:14 <V453000> many graphics = mayhem
22:51:07 <Wolf01> Shit, I already ate half of a maxi-pack of loackers
22:51:43 <Wolf01> I should try with some cement
22:56:40 <V453000> which part don't you get
22:56:58 <supermop> it seems like i list the color i want to recolor, then the color it should become, but where the hell do i apply it to a sprite
22:57:00 <V453000> you give it values and it recolours from A to B autmoatically
22:57:16 <supermop> like i have recolor_sprite_mop
22:57:33 <supermop> and i have spriteset_mop_01
22:58:10 <supermop> where do i say 'use recolor_sprite_mop on spriteset_mop_01'
23:01:46 <V453000> colour_mapping: RAINBOWSLUG_colour_mapping_random;
23:02:07 <V453000> and there you have a random or whatever switch leading to the recolour table
23:02:34 <V453000> rainbow slugs do it if you check out nuts.nml
23:03:22 <V453000> note that frosch wrote that part, so it's utter batshit insane
23:03:42 <V453000> but I think the basic part is this simple
23:04:20 <frosch123> supermop: just use the normal cc recolour sprites
23:04:40 <frosch123> is there a need to define custom ones?
23:04:55 <supermop> for one case i want to make an open wagon either grey, 1cc, or 2cc
23:05:19 <frosch123> anyway, selecting the recolouring works different when using sprite stacks
23:06:06 <frosch123> so before you start with recolouring you should decide whether to possibly use stacks somewhen, or whether to never use them
23:06:16 <frosch123> (you can use a stack of 1 for starting)
23:07:13 <V453000> what's the major difference?
23:07:16 <frosch123> [23:04] <supermop> for one case i want to make an open wagon either grey, 1cc, or 2cc <- does "grey" look the same as when grey is selected as cc? or is it some other grey?
23:07:18 <V453000> I'll want to use both
23:07:56 <frosch123> V453000: when not using stacks you select sprites and recolouring in two independent switch chains
23:08:16 <frosch123> with stacks you select both as pairs in the same switch chain
23:08:46 <frosch123> though if the whole stack shall use the same recolouring you can still use the old method
23:09:56 <V453000> nice, another dimension wtf :D this going to be crazy
23:10:10 <V453000> no I will use it for each layer
23:10:15 <V453000> probably just for 2 at most
23:26:33 <supermop> frosch123: i could make it so the whole stack recolors the same, but was thinking each layer would color separately
23:28:58 <frosch123> thought it can probably be written more intuititve
23:30:28 <supermop> i already use stacks for almost all of my vehicles
23:31:46 <supermop> i wonder what is better switch chain: [position in consist]-[stack]-[livery style]
23:32:19 <supermop> or [style]-[stack]-[position]
23:32:36 <frosch123> if you store some intermediate results using STORE_TEMP, it does not matter
23:32:53 <supermop> [style]-[position]-[stack] sounds intuitive
23:33:03 <frosch123> in that case there is no need to duplicate all the cases
23:36:39 <supermop> does i need to set a unique location to store for each tram?
23:37:16 <frosch123> you can use link them globally
23:37:44 <frosch123> register 0 for style, register 1 for position, ...
23:38:11 <supermop> ok so i can have like:
23:38:30 <supermop> switch_style, <magic>;
23:39:06 <supermop> then STORE_TEMP(switch_style, 0)
23:40:05 <frosch123> well, the point is, if you have a complicated formular for "position", you do not need to duplicate it for each "style"
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23:40:23 <frosch123> and you do not need to duplicate "stack" for each combination of "style" and "position"
23:45:20 <supermop> so this is my simplest tram:
23:45:44 <supermop> only one car, only two things to stack, only two random livery variations
23:46:38 <supermop> now i am adding trams with 5 cars, different things to stack on each, switch to vary which end gets pantograph, and special livery magic
23:46:58 <supermop> so i imagine it will make a big branching tree of switches
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