IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-12
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00:39:57 <Samu> help needed, i'm getting overflow
00:40:11 <Samu> uint ind_cost1 = total_len * cal_cost * ind_len;
00:40:36 <Samu> even when i try uint32 or uint64, it still overflow
00:41:04 <Samu> total_len, cal_cost and ind_len are all uint
00:41:26 <Samu> how can I use the operator *
01:13:55 <Samu> nevermind, i found a way
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13:36:17 <V453000> Lejving master race is around
13:38:14 <V453000> kinda want to finish it ASAP but there's always fuckload more
13:47:56 <Wolf01> Why do maglev track junctions have the grey track part?
14:09:29 <V453000> Wolf01: only way to make it work properly
14:09:38 <V453000> it just lights up when it's active [built]
14:10:10 <V453000> point is, whenever you give any height to the tracks, they will start overlapping in junction and it is impossible to make it look proper
14:10:37 <V453000> so you can make the setups manually in 3D and give them a flat top part which overlaps - and since it's flat it doesn't break by overlapping
14:11:55 <V453000> I think this solution is really good, the colours are enough to see what's up, too
14:15:17 <Lejving> is this even a question Wolf01 ? maglev is more fragile than the other materials to make track with, so need an extra support piece to make it more rigid
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14:39:39 <andythenorth> 110mph freight trains in Horse bother me
14:43:33 <V453000> this isn't working andythenorth :D
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15:20:47 <andythenorth> V453000 too true
15:23:04 <andythenorth> speed parameter? o_O
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15:33:03 <supermop> so i drew a locomotive
15:34:07 <supermop> and already i am thinking, i need to draw 3-4 liveries for this, rather than 'i need to draw 3-4 more locomotives'
15:35:07 <Wolf01> You want fast vehicles but not much cargo you chose red second company colour, yellow increase cargo but slow down, blue boosts ships, azure boosts planes, green lowers running costs, pink more pigs, brown shit
15:35:54 <Wolf01> You will pass your entire life to draw liveries :D
15:36:55 <supermop> you can actually have HE vary my CC
15:37:26 <supermop> i guess you could consistently do that, for MP games
15:37:54 <supermop> like one player is faster, one player has better cargo decay, etc etc
15:39:32 <supermop> Wolf01: in italian which cc is called 'azure'?
15:40:26 <supermop> tbh the english name light blue is misleading because it is slightly turquoise, not just a lighter blue
15:40:58 <supermop> its definitely kinda cyan
15:42:59 <Wolf01> Mmmh no, cyan is it's own, more like sky blue, azure is more like cerulean blue but lighter
15:45:03 <supermop> english just has 'dark blue' 'blue' and 'light blue' i think
15:45:48 <supermop> pretty uninspired, when you consider how many different words for shades of blue english language has
15:46:09 <Wolf01> We have something like 20 names for blue shade
15:46:14 <supermop> and also 'dark green' 'green' and 'light green'
15:46:55 <supermop> i assumed the original names were aimed more at children who might not know words like 'cyan' and 'cerulean'
15:47:23 <supermop> 'yellow' and 'orange' bothers me
15:47:26 <Wolf01> And every shade has its own dark, normal, light tones (which are like 5 and not 3)
15:47:37 <supermop> the 'orange' is clearly just a slightly richer yellow
15:47:38 <Wolf01> Yes, orange is bright yellow
15:47:50 <Wolf01> I always found that weird in OTTD
15:48:02 <andythenorth> all colours must use Lego palette references
15:48:34 <supermop> which, fine, there is no orange in the pallette, why not use and adjective+yellow for name
15:49:16 <supermop> andy: CC= transparent bright green
15:50:09 <Wolf01> I would like also black, and 2cc trans-yellow
15:50:52 <supermop> what about black+yellow+red
15:51:21 <supermop> oh thats what you meant
15:51:33 <supermop> was thinking of the 90s green blacktron
15:52:05 <supermop> who for somereason switched to raglan sleeve shirts with team logo instead of spacesuits
16:03:10 <andythenorth> that one is quite boss
16:03:23 <supermop> 2nd interview at a place today
16:03:31 <supermop> but it is at a gd wagamama
16:03:56 <supermop> who schedules 2nd interviews as lunch at a chain restaurant
16:04:24 <supermop> am i supposed to bring drawings again? and lay them out on table to get ramen broth splashed all over??
16:05:07 <andythenorth> I have done lunch interviews
16:05:19 <andythenorth> (for being hired, not for hiring)
16:05:23 <andythenorth> it’s usually a social fit question
16:07:11 <supermop> andythenorth: yeah - but i usually think of those as either a 1st, or even pre-first interview, or a last interview
16:07:20 <supermop> like to meet other people on team
16:07:43 <supermop> not a 2nd technical interview with the same person as before
16:08:23 <SpComb> I think my only lunch interview was after signing but before the first work day. I think it was also my idea :P
16:08:42 <supermop> like we did run late last time and maybe he wants more time to look at drawings
16:09:17 <supermop> but idk why not do that in office so i can meet some of the other workers
16:10:02 <supermop> SpComb: yeah i've done them basically either before interviewing for real, or after essentially already getting the job
16:10:38 <supermop> like 'ok we like you, lets talk it over so we can be sure you want to work here' etc
16:13:40 <supermop> i brought top half of my surface book in
16:13:49 <supermop> so i can throw some stuff on there to review
16:14:13 <supermop> i can't imagine looking through drawings at a tiny 2-person table on paper
16:20:00 <Samu> who can take a look at my pseudo-code
16:21:11 <Samu> what kind of formula do I have?
16:42:23 <Samu> crap, im doing this wrong
16:42:54 <Samu> @calc 5000 + 8*5000*4 + 8*5000*4
16:44:30 <andythenorth> probably 10/8 :P
16:44:43 <andythenorth> but yeah, my 8/8 tank cars look chibi by comparison :P
16:45:46 <Samu> someone help me explain my formula. I know it works, but I don't know how to explain it, lol
16:46:25 <supermop> Samu: i have no idea what that does
16:47:08 <Samu> okay, will try to explain
16:47:57 <Samu> it calculates running cost of a train, while simulating costs for parts that don't specify a running cost (for example, wagons)
16:49:20 <Samu> first thing the function do is getting the sum of all running costs that are specified (cal_cost)
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16:50:19 <Samu> once I get a cal_cost, i then try to simulate costs for those parts that don't have it, by basing it on cal_cost
16:51:35 <Samu> ind_cost = (unc_len * cal_cost * ind_len) / (VEHICLE_LENGTH * divisor * 2)
16:51:46 <Samu> this is where I fail to explain
16:52:31 <Samu> ind_cost is the simulated cost for the current part that doesn't have a cost
16:53:22 <Samu> ind_len is the length of the current part I'm working with
16:53:51 <Samu> unc_len is the length sum of all parts without running costs
16:56:50 <Samu> ind_cost then goes through the newgrf filter and comes up with unc_cost
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16:57:44 <Samu> the sum of all unc_costs will yield the simulated cost of all parts that don't specify a running cost
16:58:35 <Samu> final cost is then cost = unc_cost (simulated costs) + cal_cost (costs that are specified)
16:59:30 <crem> Sounds too simple. No integrals or whatever.
17:00:07 <Samu> my question is ... what kind of formula do I have, how do I display it
17:00:23 <Samu> for documentation purposes
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17:04:49 <supermop> Wolf01: ^ locomotive
17:07:17 <Wolf01> BTW looks nice, even outside its contest
17:07:38 <Wolf01> Also I should continue my voxel series
17:09:46 <supermop> other variant will have yellow ends
17:10:10 <supermop> this one should maybe have red buffer bars
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17:11:24 <supermop> idk what a 'new' tiny diesel would look like,
17:11:49 <supermop> no sense putting two cabs on something so small
17:13:13 <supermop> nor would it need another hood
17:13:28 <supermop> maybe it will just be a 4/8 version
17:17:33 <supermop> Alberth: it is steam powered and running on tramway, but i'd say it's a bit big to call just a tram
17:17:52 <supermop> the thing i drew was a diesel
17:19:07 <supermop> the thing i can't decide is how such a tramway diesel from 1940 and 2020 would differ
17:19:22 <supermop> visually they's likely look the same
17:20:48 <Alberth> random guess, I'd expect the 2020 one to have a much smaller diesel for the same performance
17:21:18 <Alberth> so they'd look more regular trams, and have more capacity than the 1940 one
17:22:43 <supermop> Alberth: these are more like locomotives for dock/industrial tramways
17:22:49 <supermop> so i can add more wagons
17:23:04 <supermop> but i'd like the locomotive to look different too
17:23:29 <supermop> i guess it could be like a very short normal tram body
17:24:00 <supermop> and with big windshield on the cab for visibility
17:24:08 <supermop> to run over fewer people
17:24:48 <supermop> or the engine hood could be smaller, and more platform space to stand on
17:28:46 <supermop> i need to do the same for electric too
17:31:53 <Samu> The sum of all ind_len becomes unc_len
17:32:14 <Samu> means that it's exponential?
17:34:05 <supermop> i take 'exponential' to mean stuff more like 'whatever^x' rather than x^2
17:34:11 <Alberth> Samu: no, x**2 is quadratic
17:34:38 <supermop> i'd call x^2 geometric if i was describing growth
17:35:07 <supermop> if my cost is going up y=n*x, i call it linear growth
17:35:14 <Alberth> never heard of that term, but fair enough
17:35:46 <supermop> if my cost is y=x^n, i'd call it geometric growth
17:36:12 <supermop> and if my cost is y=n^x, i call it exponential
17:36:37 <Samu> unc_cost = unc_len * cal_cost * ind_len_1 + unc_len * cal_cost * ind_len_2 +... unc_len * cal_cost * ind_len_x
17:36:50 <Samu> the sum of all ind_len becomes unc_len
17:36:53 <supermop> Wolf01: i think it is purpose built for 10th avenue/west end line
17:37:13 <Alberth> so geometric is more general, as it holds for any n, rather than quadratic where n==2 only
17:37:15 <supermop> which was mainline freight running on streets in manhattan
17:37:46 <supermop> people kept getting run over, so it had a lot of skirting
17:38:04 <supermop> eventually they just elevated the line above the street
17:38:17 <Alberth> Samu don't repeat the same calculation multiple times, it's very unreadable
17:38:25 <supermop> and had siding that went into the 2nd/3rd floors of warehouses along the way
17:38:38 <Alberth> use parenthesis to group the sum instead, before multiplying
17:39:53 <supermop> ok lunch interview time
17:40:17 <Alberth> interrogate the lunchc :p
17:41:22 <Samu> how do i do that with parentesis?
17:43:55 <Samu> unc_cost = unc_len * cal_cost * (ind_len_1 + ind_len_2 + ... + ind_len_x) where the sum of all ind_len = unc_len?
17:45:01 <Samu> which is basically the same as saying unc_cost = unc_len ^ 2 * cal_cost, right?
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17:47:16 <Samu> unc_cost = unc_len ^ 2 * cal_cost / divisor
17:48:19 <Samu> i'm gonna simplify the divisor math, it's a bit confusing right now
17:48:50 <Samu> divisor = (VEHICLE_LENGTH << 5) * _settings_game.vehicle.train_extra_runcost_divisor;
17:49:40 <Samu> Money ind_cost = (unc_len * cal_cost * ind_len) / divisor;
17:51:44 <DorpsGek> Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
17:54:12 <Samu> final_cost = cost_at_this_point + cost_at_this_point * length_of_parts_without_cost^2 / (256 * divisor);
17:57:50 <Samu> @calc 3445 + 3445*24*24 / (256 * 7)
17:58:18 <Wolf01> (I still think that the length of a wagon should not be related to the maintenance cost)
17:59:20 <Samu> @calc 3445 + ((3445*24*24) / (256*7))
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18:06:04 <Samu> now, one last thing I need to do, is make the length conversion
18:07:31 <Samu> max train lenght of 7 is the same as a length of 16*7
18:09:10 <Samu> @calc 3445 + 3445*1.5*1.5 / (16 * 7)
18:12:11 <Samu> @calc 3445 + 3445*1.5*1.5 / 7
18:13:10 <Samu> final_cost = cost_at_this_point + cost_at_this_point * length_of_parts_without_cost^2 / divisor
18:13:25 <Samu> lenght is in tile units, mucho clean
18:21:09 <Samu> Alberth: was my formula geometric? quadratic, exponential or linear, I didn't quite get it
18:24:34 <Samu> @calc 3445 + 3445*0.5*0.5 / 7
18:24:48 <Samu> @calc 3445 + 3445*1*1 / 7
18:24:55 <Samu> @calc 3445 + 3445*1.5*1.5 / 7
18:26:09 <Samu> @calc 3445 + 3445*2*2 / 7
18:26:52 <Samu> @calc 3445 + 3445*2.5*2.5 / 7
18:27:30 <Samu> @calc 3445 + 3445*6.5*6.5 / 7
18:28:48 <Alberth> geometric growth was said, but I don't know what that means, you'd have to look it up
18:30:39 <Alberth> (not only for 2, but for any fixed number > 1 )
18:31:41 <Alberth> (also for any fixed value 2, and otherwise (except 0)
18:32:02 <Rubidium> geometric ~== exponential
18:32:20 <Samu> one thing for sure, it's not linear
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18:32:46 <Rubidium> Exponential growth: In the case of a discrete domain of definition with equal intervals, it is also called geometric growth
18:32:59 <Alberth> RB: oh, I only know the term as stochastic distribution
18:33:41 <Rubidium> ofcourse this is all highly unreliable since I'm quoting wikipedia ;)
18:34:18 <Alberth> it's smarter than any of us :)
18:35:21 <Rubidium> interesting definition of smarter
18:36:06 <Wolf01> Mmmh, please stop with math, I don't want to lose the rest of the evening on numberphile again :P
18:37:41 <Rubidium> shall we then talk about time zones and push you to computerphile?
18:37:43 <Samu> wish i had excelt installed
18:38:37 <Wolf01> No, enough *phile for a while... ok, maybe some "steam locomotive"phile
18:38:58 <Alberth> that's andys department :)
18:46:41 <Wolf01> Mmh, is it friday yet?
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18:52:27 <Wolf01> Probably I'll ask it again in 2 hours
18:53:04 <Samu> i made a graph in some website
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19:12:03 <Samu> call me dumb, but I think it's exponential
19:16:10 <Alberth> latter grows faster though
19:16:22 <Alberth> for large enough x, at least
19:17:56 <Alberth> 13*13=169, 2**13 = 8192
19:27:11 <Samu> what does it mean **, 2 asterists
19:32:21 <Samu> i didn't update savegame version, dunno if it was increased in the meanwhile, grr
19:32:23 <Alberth> some languages use ^ for XOR, so it can't be used for power operator
19:34:26 <Samu> ah, it's still 196, lucky me
19:35:46 <Samu> oh, it's not 27816 though, lol
19:36:33 <Samu> comment should say 27925, grr, is it worth a patch?
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19:45:49 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27926 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2017-10-12 19:45:42 +0200 )
19:45:51 <DorpsGek> slovenian: 2 changes by Necrolyte
19:45:52 <DorpsGek> polish: 12 changes by McZapkie
19:45:53 <DorpsGek> hebrew: 34 changes by dnd_man
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20:12:42 <Wolf01> Mmmh, should I really limit the height to 8 voxels?
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20:43:53 <Wolf01> It doesn't even cost so much
20:45:23 * andythenorth was thinking of drawing it
20:50:55 <Wolf01> Ooooh big update for Astroneer
21:02:19 <supermop> andythenorth: what do modern tiny diesels look like
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21:03:25 <andythenorth> you mean industrial ones?
21:04:41 <supermop> one of those but from the 2010s or 20s instead of 1950s
21:06:29 <andythenorth> look at Queensland sugar cane
21:06:37 <andythenorth> and then reduce it 50%
21:06:51 <supermop> do they have modern diesels on that?
21:12:40 <andythenorth> loads of those on ebay :P
21:12:55 <supermop> i want one that says Oahu
21:13:20 <supermop> prefer one in 3' gauge, not HO
21:15:45 <andythenorth> I wish my shell would stop crashing
21:16:24 <andythenorth> and I wish my shift key worked
21:16:35 <andythenorth> and my mac didn’t end my user session every 14 days
21:16:39 <andythenorth> Apple is not what it was
21:17:13 <andythenorth> I will find it hard to like
21:17:24 <andythenorth> I am habituated and don’t want to change
21:17:36 <supermop> most of the qld diesels look same shape - cab at one end, small nose hood, small platform
21:18:05 <supermop> other than bigger windows, not sure how to differentiate
21:18:25 <supermop> center cab makes no sense on something so short
21:19:59 <supermop> i guess the hood could get shorter
21:20:30 <supermop> or i could have a fake tiny streamlined thing
21:20:37 <supermop> assuming it 'goes faster'
21:21:39 <supermop> then i can just glue two tram cabs together
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21:26:44 <supermop> should i put a red buffer beam on my little class 04 thing
21:34:02 <andythenorth> supermop: no you should draw some Horse stuff
21:34:07 <andythenorth> in the exact Horse style
21:34:13 <andythenorth> [which is still evolving] :P
21:43:29 <supermop> these little guys would be cute working in multiple
21:44:25 <supermop> i can replace wheels with a gastropod foot?
21:44:46 <supermop> actually i might draw log flume
21:47:10 <supermop> seems like it would work
21:47:22 <supermop> reuse slime for efficiency
21:47:52 <supermop> i bet you could use eddi's turn magic for the slopes
21:48:03 <supermop> so the logs pitch downward
21:48:35 <supermop> could be a rail or a roadtype
21:54:25 <orberg> I've got a compact, high speed, symmetric and asymmetric version
21:56:29 <V453000> are you using original acceleration?
21:57:29 <supermop> andythenorth: did they use dummies before the 1870s in the uk?
21:58:04 <supermop> want to differentiate between 1860ish and 1890ish tram engines
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22:08:03 <andythenorth> supermop: dunno :)
22:12:59 <andythenorth> you can’t draw anything useful in 4 px
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22:27:55 * andythenorth hates drawing tank wagons :x
22:31:44 <supermop> ugh i think im going to make this thing 4/8
22:32:12 <supermop> cant fit extra platform onto 3/8 and have it look good
22:32:58 <supermop> whereas first was [platform/nose][nose][cab]
22:33:46 <supermop> i wanted to do [platform/nose][nose/cab][cab/platform]
22:34:15 <supermop> the .5/8 platforms dont really register in \ view though
22:35:17 <supermop> railing covers it up
22:36:00 <andythenorth> 3/8 is waste of time
22:42:44 <supermop> bigger locomotive feels like progress
22:46:57 <andythenorth> same sprite with and without 1px platforms at each end
22:47:03 <andythenorth> looks quite different
22:58:48 <supermop> i should code some of these
23:06:18 <supermop> heqs style refit to all?
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23:06:32 <supermop> or hog style different trams for different wagons
23:08:58 <andythenorth> how many you got?
23:09:13 <andythenorth> I prefer classes of wagon
23:09:56 <supermop> can make as many as i like i guess
23:10:21 <supermop> can reuse old style rigid truck beds as 'wagons'
23:10:47 <supermop> but i was thinking open/tank/flat/box/hopper
23:11:40 <supermop> 5 trams per power type per generation really pads out an already too long purchase list though
23:11:53 <supermop> as trucks are something like 8 types per generation
23:15:23 <supermop> also stands to reason, if you buy a bus, you don't expect it to haul coal
23:15:51 <supermop> but buy a little harbor locomotive, and you expect it to tug whatever shows up in port
23:16:24 <supermop> but i intentionally nerf open trucks to be worst-at-everything
23:16:57 <supermop> and hauling oil from tanker ship to inland refinery in barrels looks dumb
23:18:01 <supermop> hauling metal coils in an open wagon instead of a flat car also looks dumb
23:29:53 <Wolf01> Yeah, Astroneer is really better now
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