IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-10-09
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17:59:59 <stefino> hey guys...I need help with bridges. I'm making (redrawing) bridges and found this bug. I 4xzoom it is ok but if I zoom out , gap appear. And it looks realy bad :/ Any idea where the mistake is? Thanks :) https://postimg.org/image/8c2di9av5n/
18:01:03 <stefino> PS it is automaticly rescaled by OTTD engine. There are no graphics for x2 and normal zoom
18:12:00 <FLHerne> stefino: I think that's because of the way OTTD rescales sprites - it assumes the large ones are exactly 2x or 4x the size of normal zoom, including that edges have 2px/4px steps instead of a smooth diagonal line
18:13:54 <FLHerne> When OTTD scales down your sprites, it doesn't find the 'teeth' of the steps, so you get missing pixels along the edge
18:14:25 <stefino> Umm, can't remember how to send answer so write in general. So it is graphics bug due game automatic rescale and the solution is to add sprites in x2 and normal scale
18:17:59 <FLHerne> Green + blue is the result of scaling a normal-zoom tile up by 4x
18:18:17 <FLHerne> Blue + red is the shape that 4x ground tiles are actually drawn at in most sets
18:19:12 <FLHerne> You can see that when OTTD scales the blue+red area down to normal zoom, there are missing pixels along the top edges
18:20:54 <FLHerne> Someone might have a better idea, but I think you're right that providing externally-scaled versions is best
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18:24:03 <FLHerne> FWIW, it's not really a 'bug' as such, the sprite just isn't the right shape for plain rescaling to work
18:29:19 <stefino> yes but if I have for example ground sprites, there are no graphics "bugs"
18:29:27 <stefino> and have only 4x zoom too
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19:38:30 <supermop> what the thinking between steam dummies, and little tank engines
19:38:50 <supermop> for industrial trams/ dockyard trains / mines
19:39:26 <supermop> should a tram set have dummies or heqs style locomotives
19:41:34 <andythenorth> industrial trains for mines and farms are different
19:42:43 <supermop> should it have both?
19:43:13 <supermop> dummy looks too much like a short tram
19:43:36 <andythenorth> dummy is a tram :)
19:43:44 <andythenorth> V453000: yo, haz problem
19:43:57 <supermop> i guess the diesels should look like little sugar cane locomotives
19:44:27 <andythenorth> the progression is just like ‘oh more hoppers blah'
19:44:37 <andythenorth> also all IH wagons are basically high contrast vertical ribs
19:44:39 <supermop> electrics boxcabs or steeples?
19:45:07 <andythenorth> steeple actually looks crap
19:45:12 <andythenorth> the angles don’t work
19:45:23 <andythenorth> I did center cab with rectangular small bonnets
19:45:26 <andythenorth> unrealism but eh
19:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27925 trunk/src/lang/malay.txt (2017-10-09 19:45:39 +0200 )
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> malay: 5 changes by rionix88
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19:51:04 <supermop> no pole or panto yet
19:56:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I don't see why you want large ribbed hoppers
19:56:28 <andythenorth> because contrast
19:56:53 <andythenorth> I made the covered hoppers by adding lids on hoppers
19:56:58 <andythenorth> rather like IRL :P
19:57:05 <andythenorth> but the flat covered hoppers look wrong
19:57:25 <andythenorth> then I tried retconning the ribs onto the hoppers
19:57:33 <andythenorth> retcon is word of the year
19:57:46 <FLHerne> Covered hoppers (the biomass ones?) also aren't ribbed
19:57:57 <FLHerne> You posted a nice photo of one...
19:58:09 <FLHerne> Aren't there covered HEA conversions too?
19:58:19 <andythenorth> the polybulks aren’t ribbed
19:58:25 <andythenorth> but the sprites look better with ribs :)
19:59:00 <Alberth> taking care of non-1 freight multiplier :)
19:59:05 <FLHerne> I disagree, they just look weird and stripy
20:09:32 <FLHerne> TBH, that's my opinion on most of the Iron Horse graphics you've posted
20:10:23 <FLHerne> They're all full of high-contrast details that break up the overall lines, and my personal preference is against that
20:13:05 <FLHerne> Greebles like that look nice on your FIRS buildings, but they look strange to me when portraying things that have huge expanses of sheet steel on the real thing
20:14:04 <FLHerne> (I think maybe because the minimum 1px detail size is still huge in OTTD scale, so there's not much space left /between/ the details)
20:15:34 <andythenorth> is interesting opposite of the V453000 method
20:15:58 <FLHerne> Not that you have any particular reason to care about my opinions, but I have a lot of them and they keep overflowing :P
20:16:20 <andythenorth> my problem with high contrast is that it’s just 1 technique
20:16:29 <andythenorth> FIRS has multiple techniques
20:16:39 <andythenorth> if all wagons are high-contrast vertical lines, all wagons look same :P
20:21:55 <andythenorth> wagons lack other techniques
20:22:01 <andythenorth> I don’t like random noise
20:22:07 <andythenorth> there are no windows
20:22:15 <andythenorth> lettering and logos look stupid
20:23:02 <FLHerne> UKRS2 ones have a couple of different paint schemes for some wagon types, which helps
20:23:09 <supermop> 4x sprites so you can see the lettering?
20:23:37 <andythenorth> I considered paint schemes
20:23:46 <FLHerne> Also, more variation in silhouette
20:23:49 <andythenorth> but with all the cargo support, compile times are already unworkable
20:24:09 <FLHerne> Your early hoppers are all pretty much boxes
20:24:38 <FLHerne> Or they look that way when stuck into a train
20:25:09 <andythenorth> not funnel-y enough?
20:25:19 <FLHerne> UKRS2 almost alternates between ones with sloping ends and big visual gaps, and boxoid ones
20:26:08 <andythenorth> only the big blue hopper really looks like a hopper there
20:26:29 <andythenorth> partly because the inner grey slope is also drawn
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20:28:39 <FLHerne> The covered grain hoppers look ok
20:28:55 <FLHerne> MGR ones are a bit weird though
20:30:16 <FLHerne> Didn't you draw the UKRS2+ speedlink ones?
20:30:30 <FLHerne> Not hoppers, but they do look interestingly different to anything else
20:31:22 <andythenorth> I drew the + ones yes
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20:31:35 <andythenorth> the horse ones are all modified UKRS 2 (pikka or mine)
20:33:10 <FLHerne> I still can't really put my finger on how, but all the UKRS2(+) vehicles seem much more distinct than the IH ones
20:33:21 <FLHerne> I guess the non-standard lengths help :P
20:33:57 <FLHerne> But they've got different heights, and different sizes and shapes of gaps between them, and very different texturing
20:34:32 <FLHerne> Whereas the IH ones for each family all look rather like stretched versions of the same sprite
20:35:23 <FLHerne> Anyway, I need to go and ring church bells now, so I'll stop insulting your work...
20:35:39 <andythenorth> there’s a fundamental numbers problem
20:35:52 <andythenorth> IH has up to 12 sprites where UKRS 2 has one ;)
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20:50:37 <supermop> i wonder what a modern version of that looks like? just a yellow box likely?
20:51:27 <supermop> diesels should look like a tiny version of this i guess
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21:04:14 <supermop> idk i am overthinking everything
21:04:29 <andythenorth> fill up inspiration
21:04:33 <supermop> feel like i need at least two each for steam, diesel, and electric
21:04:35 <andythenorth> the search google images for retcon
21:04:57 <supermop> hard to make something 3LU different looking
21:04:58 <andythenorth> for gameplay you really don’t need many
21:05:14 <andythenorth> I struggled with Hog to make 3 steam look different
21:05:30 <supermop> i considered a tank for difference
21:05:46 <supermop> diesel is going to be around for ever.
21:05:55 <supermop> 40s ish through infinity
21:05:55 <andythenorth> when you actually draw it, it’s very few pixels
21:06:05 <andythenorth> you don’t get much room :)
21:06:35 <supermop> electric can be boss from jump so don't need much progression. progress can be just adding wagons
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21:12:51 <supermop> had assumed it would have been smaller
21:15:54 <supermop> was hoping 10th av freight would have used tiny locomotives
21:16:25 <supermop> but it was a full size SG railway
21:17:21 <supermop> rather it was part of the regular railway and regular trains drove onto it
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21:43:55 <andythenorth> so many variants :P
21:44:01 <andythenorth> trying to find correct
21:44:02 <V453000> there goes 200 pounds off to amazon and no sprite progress today
21:44:08 <andythenorth> V453000: what purchase?
21:44:40 <V453000> mr wannabe artist is reading art books when in subway
21:45:13 <andythenorth> I read an art book once
21:46:04 <V453000> I just find it vastly more interesting than staring into the rest of the cattle on the train for 40 minutes twice a day
21:46:59 <V453000> and I'm not too attracted to reading books with stories and shit
21:47:03 <V453000> sure, sometimes, but eh
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21:48:39 <V453000> other than that I basically have finished painting the tunnels and from looking at PSD they look awesome so far, will attempt to put them in the game to see how horribly wrong I am :D
21:48:55 <V453000> /me is kind of sarcastictarded today
21:49:56 <andythenorth> I have drawn 400 covered hoppers
21:50:28 <V453000> jesus fuck :D that's amazing progress
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21:51:20 <V453000> well I guess if you have 25 cargoes with 2 randoms each it's kind of easy eh
21:51:48 <andythenorth> most of them are wrong
21:51:56 <andythenorth> surprisingly fricking hard to draw
21:55:43 <V453000> hm :) nothing is easy
21:56:02 <andythenorth> open cars are :P
21:56:05 <V453000> one would expect things to be becoming easier as you learn more
21:56:40 <V453000> yez, and dumb ass brain loopholes which want to make things complicated as flying fucks
21:57:35 <andythenorth> well I have fixed 1 generation
21:57:41 <andythenorth> now just have to fix the other 5 :x
21:58:09 <V453000> yeah exactly this shit is why nuts is dead :D
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22:15:42 <andythenorth> hmm 2 hours of drawing 2 sprites
22:15:45 <andythenorth> and it might not be better :P
22:16:42 <V453000> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD I THOUGHT PUTTING IT TOGETHER FROM PHOTOSHOP IS GOING TO BE EASIER
22:16:49 <V453000> couldn't be more surprised
22:16:58 <V453000> of course it's total nightmare
22:17:07 <V453000> fucking ground sprites and their zoom levels
22:18:38 <V453000> well maybe just x1 will be fucked-ish and at that scale it might not be noticeable
22:18:38 <andythenorth> you know what else is a nightmare?
22:18:41 <andythenorth> using grey in vehicles
22:18:46 <andythenorth> fricking depot bg is grey
22:19:18 <andythenorth> draw nice sprite
22:19:23 <andythenorth> half of it disappears
22:21:25 <V453000> if sprite == depot, set vehicle on fire = true
22:21:43 <andythenorth> also 26000 sprites
22:23:18 <V453000> this thing is getting seriously dirty
22:23:23 <V453000> Render has been pushed though
22:24:11 <V453000> 26000 isn't a small thing either
22:26:07 <supermop> maybe ill put one of those bars on the shunter wheels
22:26:34 <andythenorth> don’t draw grey wagons
22:27:03 <V453000> note to self don't ever revisit brix source
22:29:16 <V453000> ok now I can just pray
22:29:21 <V453000> either it's going to work
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22:38:45 <supermop> why do clients refuse to hire a graphic designer
22:39:03 <andythenorth> do they need graphic design? o_O
22:39:11 <supermop> then ask their interior designer to design all of their branding
22:39:25 <andythenorth> same reason they ask their website designer to design all their branding
22:39:28 <supermop> and produce production quality sinage graphics
22:39:36 <andythenorth> one of the many reasons I quit web design
22:39:49 <supermop> and won't pay to photograph their own dishes
22:40:18 <supermop> suggest to use something online, then don't want to pay for stock images
22:40:55 <andythenorth> agency work sucks
22:40:57 <andythenorth> make products :P
22:41:01 <supermop> and ask you to produce the graphics for the window vinyls same day
22:41:26 <supermop> my boss needs to be less thirsty about this stufff
22:41:31 <andythenorth> you have a computer right?
22:41:34 <supermop> we are not a branding consultancy
22:41:35 <andythenorth> and it’s all just IT
22:41:51 * andythenorth can only offer cynicsm here, sorry :)
22:42:18 <supermop> boss is the type who won't think twice until it's two late when presented with any opprotunity to grab scope
22:42:35 <supermop> even when that scope has nothing to do with our work
22:42:44 <supermop> and doesn't know how to price for it
22:43:32 <supermop> also this is all being done with no access to our server, which is down today, because it sits in a pile in an un-ventilated closet
22:49:24 <andythenorth> supermop: so is the design not charged for?
22:50:22 <supermop> got approval to invoice for reimbursement for licensing of image though
22:50:58 <andythenorth> if it was billed, you could at least involve freelance
22:51:20 <andythenorth> in principle tying together the interior and the graphics is more holistic, better result
22:51:26 <supermop> boss too hungry for that
22:51:35 <andythenorth> I’ve been that boss
22:51:42 <supermop> i would rather recapture the whole thing
22:51:44 <andythenorth> it’s a hard way to make money over the medium term
22:52:06 <supermop> it would be fine if we were a little more generously staffed
22:52:21 <andythenorth> occasionally a lot of money can be made that way, but it’s rare
22:52:25 <andythenorth> more usually it’s slow death
22:52:31 <supermop> also the most sucessful restaurant interiors firms are much more whole brand integrated
22:52:58 <supermop> but as we do not actually have that expertise to bring to table it is really just a pain
22:54:18 <supermop> going to have to see if my computer can hack it when it comes to making a 96"x96" photoshop file at 300 dpi
22:55:44 <andythenorth> 15 years since I did anything like that
22:55:53 <andythenorth> but large format banners used to be very challenging
22:56:07 <andythenorth> I had a friend who did huge building wraps
22:56:50 <supermop> i think i am going to try 150 dpi
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