IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-09-23
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00:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> because in a countryside that's mostly forest, you're not allowed to cut down even a single tree
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01:38:49 <Eddi|zuHause> huh? i got spam. in chinese...
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04:19:30 <supermop_home> should the older steam trucks pull fewer trailers?
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11:32:58 <andythenorth> V453000: horse is sick again
11:33:04 <andythenorth> such predictable progression
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12:33:03 <andythenorth> engine ‘Growler’ is replaced by upgraded growler 2
12:33:15 <andythenorth> what shall I call it?
12:35:50 <V453000> does that matter right now? :)
12:36:13 <andythenorth> yeah, names are MOST IMPORTANT
12:36:22 <andythenorth> real-life name for this train
12:40:15 <V453000> no new forum posts, project must be dead
12:41:25 <V453000> k finish last tropic plant, go
12:46:29 <V453000> I'll do toyland super fast I think
12:46:44 <V453000> is it too much if trees look like literal shit?
12:46:56 <V453000> bananas hates just porn and military right?
12:48:49 <andythenorth> poo emoji is valid socially
12:51:15 <andythenorth> Super Slug then?
12:51:18 <andythenorth> then Horse has Slug
12:52:15 <V453000> yeah now even personally face-animated shit emoji
12:52:27 <V453000> people looking like shit in real time
12:55:17 <andythenorth> most horse train names start with letter 's'
12:58:06 <V453000> hm nuts names are pretty well spread
12:58:13 <V453000> not discriminating letters
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13:32:39 <andythenorth> and it’s ID 1000
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14:08:37 <Wolf01> argoneus, Alkel_U3: since you have stellaris and it's discounted on steam, it is worth the purchase?
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14:31:27 <supermop_home> ugh so last night I was kept awake thinking about special liveries to draw for buses
14:33:03 <supermop_home> old timey road trains - too long?
14:33:48 <Alkel_U3> Wolf01: I haven't played it yet but I've been told by many that it's pretty good
14:34:55 <Alkel_U3> though it's Paradox's game, it's prorbably gonna suffer from the DLC syndrome :-)
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14:42:27 <andythenorth> supermop_home: looks about right
14:42:48 <andythenorth> tractor unit could use a bit of work, needs to look more grunty
14:43:06 <andythenorth> I’d snick the cab back 1px
14:43:08 <supermop_home> seems wrong for the steam tractor to pull same amount as petrol and diesel truck
14:43:15 <andythenorth> is it same speed?
14:43:26 <supermop_home> tractor is 1870-ish
14:43:39 <andythenorth> slower, same capacity is fine
14:43:58 <supermop_home> steam truck is 1900 ish, black truck is 1910 or 15
14:44:42 <supermop_home> maybe it was 1870, 1890, 1910, 1930?
14:45:31 <supermop_home> with the rigid trucks, the first petrol truck is weaker and hauls less than the steam truck, but is cheaper and faster
14:45:50 <supermop_home> then the following diesel trucks are all stronger, faster, etc
14:46:26 <supermop_home> road train loses the small and fast vs slow and large split because they are all large
14:48:32 <Wolf01> <Alkel_U3> though it's Paradox's game, it's prorbably gonna suffer from the DLC syndrome :-) <- yeah, that's why I would like to wait until they end releasing the DLCs, but the digital anniversary edition is tempting
14:49:12 <Alkel_U3> They still sell separate DLCs for Europa Universalis IV if I'm not mistaken
14:49:32 <Alkel_U3> or is there a broad package already?
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14:51:42 <Wolf01> The digital anniversary comes with all the released DLCs, EUIV has the "collection" package which comes with everything and with 58% discount is at 117€
14:53:28 <Alkel_U3> That is some price. I'd rather buy a beer keg.
14:54:07 <andythenorth> supermop_home: first generation sometimes lacks a clear pattern for evolution eh
14:56:16 <supermop_home> well the petrol tractor will have similar power to the petrol truck. if player wants to force it up hills with three trailers that is their choice
14:58:32 <supermop_home> also ive found when playing with mountainous TAI villages and ViV GS, could use a late game tiny bus
15:00:39 <argoneus> Wolf01: stellaris is great
15:00:48 <argoneus> but you either need the major dlc or play with someone who has them
15:00:59 <argoneus> utopia > synthetic dawn > leviathan in order of importance
15:01:01 <argoneus> the rest is whatever
15:02:20 <Wolf01> What is the gameplay? Like endless space or more like homeworld?
15:02:29 <argoneus> I haven't played either wew
15:02:40 <argoneus> you have a planet that you develop
15:02:47 <argoneus> and you can explore other planets and send stuff there
15:03:05 <argoneus> sins of a solar empire maybe
15:03:16 <argoneus> so homeworld-ish I guess
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15:11:14 <andythenorth> roster nearly done eh
15:11:19 <andythenorth> just need some stupid fast trains now
15:11:39 <andythenorth> fastest train there is 125mph, needs a gen 6 at 140mph or 165mph
15:11:56 <supermop_home> locomotive or EMU>?
15:12:28 <frosch123> finally an exciting mail to info@
15:12:56 <andythenorth> supermop_home: EMU definitely, or bi-mode
15:13:03 <andythenorth> loco, maybe, we’d have to invent it
15:13:15 <supermop_home> put pointy end on the cargo sprinter
15:13:16 <andythenorth> EMU could be class 800 or pendolino or so
15:13:32 <supermop_home> replace the container with a passenger coach
15:13:33 <Wolf01> <frosch123> finally an exciting mail to info@ <- a cease and desist?
15:14:35 <frosch123> no, compile farm activity
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15:26:28 <Arveen> is there a option to make the ottd window non-resizable ?
15:28:20 <Wolf01> I think not. What is the problem with resizing the window?
15:29:39 <Arveen> I want to stream it and want to avoid accidently resizes
15:30:02 <Arveen> so it's always in fitting ratio
15:43:12 <frosch123> is the horse roster a representation of andy's mind? the engines start with R names and slowly transition into V names
15:44:05 <Alberth> doesn't seem likely that andy moves to 32bpp :p
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16:04:28 <andythenorth> frosch123: quite plausible
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16:08:50 * andythenorth has engines with variable power by railtype
16:13:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: when do you build trains in a depot?
16:13:34 <frosch123> it fails for all advanced use cases which you are dreaming of :) like autoreplace, consist replace, ...
16:13:45 <frosch123> everything that builds trains without a specific depot
16:14:50 <andythenorth> even that might be TMWFTLB
16:18:31 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I should figure out how to play minecraft split screen on pc
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16:31:54 <Wolf01> I don't think the pc supports the splitscreen mode even if there are all the settings :(
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19:52:41 <Wolf01> I think I found the "will of go outside", now I need to find the "will of remain outside"
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20:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing good ever happened outside
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20:57:19 <andythenorth> V453000: Horse all fucked again
20:59:45 <V453000> honestly lately I am realizing that making plans is all great and stuff, but to a point
20:59:55 <V453000> like, I have a very solid plan with all details
21:00:10 <V453000> but it's likely that the details are going to change anyway when I start making graphics
21:00:16 <V453000> so I stop with planning for now
21:00:25 <V453000> I have the concept, vehicles 16/8, wagons 8/8
21:00:35 <V453000> now just make graphics and adapt on the fly
21:00:40 <V453000> maybe you can consider doing something similar
21:00:47 <V453000> if you feel like drawing 2020 engine, well, just do it :)
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21:04:04 <V453000> I thought I will fuck with toyland fast and easy
21:04:18 <V453000> trying to make all trees look like the plastic balls in kids playing courts
21:04:32 <V453000> need to do something more proper
21:07:00 <andythenorth> V453000: do brio trees
21:07:55 <V453000> well that's basically how brix trees look in general :D
21:08:04 <V453000> I'm thinknig mushrooms atm
21:09:27 <frosch123> just rename the climate to australia, use the regular brix temperte sprites, and put them upside down
21:09:58 * andythenorth has length problems :P
21:10:18 <frosch123> don't worry, diameter is more important
21:10:31 <frosch123> (i think i already said that the other day)
21:10:33 <andythenorth> why are wagon speed limits?
21:10:44 <andythenorth> why don’t I cb36 the engine speed instead?
21:11:24 <V453000> I was actually considering doing trees which look like tree roots underground
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21:11:32 <V453000> basically upside down but looking from the bottom
21:15:17 <V453000> yeah what the fuck it's trees
21:15:25 <V453000> I'm thinking more about mushrooms with eyes
21:17:55 <frosch123> damn... "gartenzwerg pilz" definitely gives some disturbing images
21:25:09 <V453000> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
21:25:15 <V453000> might need to think about this for a bit
21:25:24 <V453000> but shrooms, snails and other random shit might work
21:26:03 <andythenorth> why I haz 6/8 small engine?
21:27:07 <V453000> that's fine just add a 2/8 tail :P
21:28:13 <andythenorth> or more lengths of wagons
21:28:29 <andythenorth> but multiple lengths + shit ton of extra generations to keep V453000 happy
21:28:34 <andythenorth> = lot of wagons :|
21:37:02 <andythenorth> seriously considering wagons where speed limit changes at some year
21:37:07 <andythenorth> instead of spamming buy menu
21:37:30 <andythenorth> main thing is graphics don’t need to change, so why new vehicle?
21:38:30 <V453000> I really don't see the point of wagon speed limit gameplay wise
21:38:39 <frosch123> why limit speed at all? just limit engine power?
21:38:48 <V453000> just makes all design of engines invalid because power and TE suddenly only matters
21:39:03 <V453000> well poorly accelerating trains are a hell to play with imo
21:40:58 <andythenorth> if speed isn’t limited, just choose fastest engine
21:41:06 <andythenorth> it’s a one-engine newgrf
21:41:14 <andythenorth> like NARS 2 and so
21:41:30 <andythenorth> I don’t mind what players do btw, they can turn limits off
21:42:07 * andythenorth seriously considers dropping wagon speed limits
21:42:38 <andythenorth> but then also…why have wagon generations?
21:42:42 <andythenorth> always unlimited
21:42:53 <andythenorth> so no need for upgrades
21:46:12 <V453000> if you limit the speed, all trains will be running at, say, 100kmh ... so it only matters how fast it gets to that speed
21:46:29 <andythenorth> nuts is just one wagon, right?
21:46:32 <V453000> while if you have all variables of power, TE, and speed, you are making a decision between all of them
21:46:35 * andythenorth only saw one last time played nuts
21:46:42 <V453000> more wagons is just a visual thing really
21:46:51 <V453000> unless they differ in loading speed and capacity drastically
21:47:07 <andythenorth> always use fastest engine
21:47:11 <andythenorth> just add moar if needed
21:47:11 <V453000> eye candy can be 1 wagon with random switches all over the place
21:47:35 <V453000> well if the fastest engine is weak enough in power, saturated network will always do better with stronger trains
21:48:09 <andythenorth> always use AsiaStar for coal
21:48:56 <V453000> yes because SH40 is too slow/not strong enough in comparison
21:49:14 <V453000> because vanilla is just basically 1 linear progression without classes
21:51:16 <andythenorth> V453000: in nuts, why not always use The Ultimate?
21:51:19 <andythenorth> it’s pretty ultimate
21:51:50 <andythenorth> seems boss for coal
21:53:02 <V453000> in that case, wagon connect rules
21:53:06 <V453000> can only haul express wagons
21:53:08 <andythenorth> oh that’s wtf :)
21:53:12 <V453000> which isn't that great of a feature
21:53:24 <andythenorth> also you’re changing wagon capacity with engine?
21:53:24 <V453000> in my defence it's quite common in other grfs
21:53:29 <V453000> but doesn't mean it's great
21:53:30 <andythenorth> you went full on wtf
21:53:44 <V453000> there's a shitload of switches all over the place
21:53:47 <andythenorth> I considered that to force express / freight split instead of wagon speeds
21:53:59 <andythenorth> but I ruled it out without trying it
21:54:20 <andythenorth> be quite easy “this engine can’t haul freight"
21:54:21 <V453000> you mean changing wagon stats or connection rules?
21:54:25 <andythenorth> connection rules
21:54:32 <V453000> I'm not sure honestly
21:54:41 <V453000> I think if you don't over do it like in nuts, it's really fine
21:54:52 <V453000> like simple express/freight separation is totally ok
21:55:15 <andythenorth> I can’t turn it off?
21:55:17 <V453000> but in nuts you have monorail wagons can't fit to those engines, those different monorail wagons can't fit to the other engines, etc
21:55:48 <V453000> but if you do it reasonably, it's not the end of the world
21:55:55 <V453000> honestly it works perfectly fine in URKS
21:56:07 <V453000> you have eurostar or how it's called there, 289km/h, pax only
21:56:21 <andythenorth> so how do I have totally boss coal train in NUTS?
21:56:42 <V453000> the question I have been asking myself recently is why to actually have this difference, it's basically realism and awesomeness in terms of realism
21:56:49 <V453000> you don't have a totally boss train in NUTS
21:56:56 <V453000> some are faster but have less capacity (maglev)
21:57:15 <V453000> some are slower but more capacity and amazing acceleration (rail strong/superstrong)
21:57:24 <andythenorth> maglec is quite boss
21:57:25 <V453000> it took many months to balance it out
21:57:40 <V453000> maglev is boss but 22 cargo per 8/8 is low
21:58:17 <andythenorth> helps, but doesn’t solve my problem
21:58:20 <V453000> capacity is a good way to balance things out
21:58:24 <andythenorth> I assumed you just didn’t enforce classes
21:58:30 <andythenorth> maybe we’re wrong
21:58:33 <V453000> I understand because you are keeping them on the same railtype
21:58:48 <V453000> but you can look at just rail vehicles in nuts
21:58:56 <V453000> there is superstrong, strong, medium and fast
21:59:28 <V453000> I can show you 4 networks which will be different, and each of them will only have 1 answer to best train
21:59:34 <V453000> and each of these answers will be different
22:00:37 <V453000> superstrong will rule with long trains, strong will rule with ultra short trains, medium will be best somewhere in the middle/universally for generally unspecific networks, and fast will be good only if your network doesn't have dense traffic, no short curves, not many uphills(especially merging junctions on uphill), etc
22:00:55 <V453000> you don't need to balance "all of the engines are equal on a straight track"
22:01:11 <V453000> that would mean the player chooses based on random taste, which isn't that interesting
22:01:48 <V453000> the other classes in nuts add to this, not necessarily be competitive
22:02:18 <V453000> of course, only a handful of players know the differences, I even dare to say that nobody knows about the uses for every single class in nuts
22:03:09 <Eddi|zuHause> why would they? everyone has their favourite style of network
22:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so naturally he will favour the engines that excell in that network
22:03:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and sorta ignore the rest
22:03:58 <V453000> most expert players actually like to build differently every game
22:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (assuming that they actually care)
22:04:03 <V453000> just because of fun from variety
22:04:13 <V453000> with nuts or without it
22:04:24 <V453000> doing the same over and over again for many years isn't very exciting
22:04:41 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, "most" is prbably exaggerated
22:04:51 <V453000> depends how you define expert :P
22:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and they probably change *something*, not necessarily *everything*
22:05:14 <V453000> but it's enough to justify any other train class
22:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are probably loads of players who would be considered "expert" by people totally outside your "target audience"
22:09:28 <V453000> I'm not saying everyone has to use all various possible network types all the time?
22:10:07 <V453000> I was just trying to say that even the people who build with large variety don't really know the maximum possible utilization of all nuts trains, although several of them are very close
22:10:37 <andythenorth> 1860-2020 is a terrible idea in a grf
22:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with that?
22:11:02 <V453000> of course especially if someone builds in a way where he isn't trying to build a big network, his criteria for choosing a train will differ to an extent where any balancing is pointless
22:11:17 <andythenorth> balancing is pointless :)
22:11:22 <andythenorth> but it has to be done
22:11:39 <V453000> to an extent, as long as all vehicles have some use, it's enough :)
22:12:03 <andythenorth> Hog balances trucks, trams, HAUL
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22:12:25 <andythenorth> but then for RVs, fast express can’t just haul coal eh?
22:13:00 <andythenorth> bus can go super fast, but no coal
22:13:05 <V453000> I think wagon connecting rules for express trains are totally fine
22:13:10 <andythenorth> pax tram super-high-density, but no coal
22:13:37 <V453000> I'm not going to use them in my train set, but that's just because of other full wtf mode
22:14:02 <andythenorth> I think result of connection rules is same as wagon speed limit
22:14:09 <andythenorth> it’s just implemented differently
22:14:32 <andythenorth> still no 300mph coal train
22:14:39 <V453000> it's just a forced split into 2 classes but you still work with all the variables a train can have
22:14:56 <V453000> yeah but in the selection of coal trains, the max speed matters more
22:15:31 <V453000> with wagon speed limit it's super binary, max speed of wagons reached Y/N, sort by highest power and TE
22:15:55 <Eddi|zuHause> in really ancient DBSets, there was no wagon speed limits and wagon attachment rules, making people do ICE trains with coal
22:16:33 <V453000> a "nice" part is when you have different speed limits for different cargoes, it can mean you can afford to use a slower train with some of them , but then there is the whole issue with different speed trains on the same network which is just bad
22:16:48 <andythenorth> I like to have 2 speeds on network
22:16:57 <V453000> yes that's why I think using basic connection rules is good for express engines like ICE
22:16:58 <andythenorth> messes up network, but in manageable way
22:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> in "current" DBset you have forced attachment rules, and optional wagonspeedlimits
22:17:20 <andythenorth> wagon speed limits are always optional :)
22:17:40 <andythenorth> attachment rules are maybe boring, not sure
22:17:42 <V453000> are they? I think canadian grf was doing some weird shit which didn't make it that optional
22:17:55 <andythenorth> canadian grf died :P
22:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i think it modified the engine speed instead
22:18:14 <V453000> attachment rules can become a tangled mess of unintuitive horde of error messages, if you do it in the huge extent like NUTS does
22:18:53 <V453000> thinking about trees to be done
22:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there are ways to trick the attachment rules
22:19:38 <V453000> yes if the leading engine doesn't define them
22:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> because they only ask A whether it allows attaching B, not B whether it allows attaching to A
22:19:50 * andythenorth considers options
22:19:56 <andythenorth> - attachment rules
22:20:02 <andythenorth> - mess with engine speed depending on cargo
22:20:04 <V453000> yes it's what the "invisible leading engine" grf was causing
22:20:08 <andythenorth> - variable wagon speed limits
22:20:14 <V453000> if you just make it the leading engine, you can connect anything
22:20:38 <andythenorth> - enforce speed by requiring caboose, speed limit only applies to caboose, cabeese get faster per generation
22:21:06 <andythenorth> - lots and lots of wagons in buy menu
22:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how do you justify a caboose in modern trains?
22:21:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't really solve a 2020 balancing problem with 1890 technology
22:21:49 <andythenorth> problem is that 3 generations of engine in IH 1 has grown to 6
22:21:52 <V453000> how do you justify a slug in modern brains :)
22:22:07 <andythenorth> Slug = true for IH 2
22:39:31 <Wolf01> Went outside for 2 hours, is something...
22:50:56 <andythenorth> if wagon speed limits change over time, I can use just 2 generations plausible
22:51:40 <andythenorth> but how to explain it in buy menu?
22:53:27 <frosch123> you can only change properties based on purchase date
22:53:30 <frosch123> not on current date
22:53:40 <frosch123> some sets use "last servicing date" though
22:54:38 <andythenorth> purchase date has an autoreplace problem :)
22:54:40 <frosch123> if you change it based on purchase date, it's essentially the same as a new wagon while removing the old one from the list at the same time
22:55:06 <andythenorth> also it’s weird for the network if a bunch of trains get faster on an arbitrary date
22:56:41 <frosch123> well, tie it to the engine then
22:56:57 <frosch123> give engines different speed limits depending on the cargo they are hauling
22:57:30 <andythenorth> worth testing I think
22:57:33 <frosch123> engine technology defined wagon technology, no need to separate/mix them
22:57:54 <andythenorth> dropping wagon speed limits would be useful
23:00:18 * andythenorth should sleep on it eh :)
23:13:56 <Wolf01> So I'm back at the same old point... what could I do now? Sleepflix?
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23:47:23 <TrueBrain> any of you any decent knowledge of MSVC? And why OpenTTD for example targets .NET Framework 2.0? And what .NET has to do with a C++ project? :D
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23:49:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that does seem weird
23:52:35 <TrueBrain> msvcrt100.dll, as example, the runtime library, contains .NET code .....
23:52:44 <TrueBrain> failwhale coming by
23:52:48 <TrueBrain> Microsoft at work :D
23:54:03 <Wolf01> The .NET libraries are automatically referenced, I removed the references from the OTTD project and replaced with the OTTD libraries alone and it compiled fine
23:54:29 <TrueBrain> you cannot disable the TargetFrameworkVersion :(
23:55:16 <TrueBrain> not sure what happens if I force it to 4.6.1 (VS2017)
23:55:30 <TrueBrain> VS always has been a mistery to me :D
continue to next day ⏵
