IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-09-22
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12:10:40 <V453000> andythenorth I think I have some infection
12:10:46 <V453000> optimizing render times
12:10:55 <V453000> by overhauling the whole rendering script to do horrible things
12:11:06 <V453000> going to save them seconds
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16:06:49 <V453000> nice, 5 times faster rendering with new script =D
16:08:05 <supermop> now i need to play a game where i can buy one of every RV so i can check how they look in vehicle list
16:08:32 <V453000> just play with vehicles_never_expire on ?
16:10:03 <supermop> still need to buy each one
16:10:20 <supermop> to check how they look in vehicle list vs purchase menu
16:38:38 <supermop> hmm japan set + termite means you get the EMUs and electric locomotives
16:38:50 <supermop> but no diesel locomotives or wagons
16:40:55 <supermop> it seems that with termite electrified NG and regular NG are not compatible
16:45:15 <supermop> also this game is just to check RV list sprites, but here I am getting bothered by my EMU options
16:46:48 <andythenorth> supermop: sounds like a termite bug
16:49:29 <supermop> now i have to buy EMUs using only the head unit $$$
16:49:55 <supermop> or could convert this line to shinkansen
16:51:48 <supermop> just pulled all the wires down
17:06:36 <Wolf01> I can't understand why it happen, all the vehicles after load have 0Kph max speed
17:07:18 <Wolf01> And clearly it crashes with division by 0 when calculating the effects
17:09:03 <Wolf01> The other crashes are new to me
17:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> a callback gone wrong with not-properly-saved data?
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17:31:56 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I tried with different grf combinations and always crashes, so it's not a grf problem
17:38:35 <Eddi|zuHause> if it only happens on reload, you might have incorrectly cleared some cache, or failed to reinitialize it
17:39:45 <Wolf01> But why it doesn't happen to andy or frosch?
17:41:32 <andythenorth> both the reports of it are for windows
17:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> today i spent two hours debugging an issue where the fill levels of tanks were incorrect
17:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> turned out it was missing some () in the formula for volume
17:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> something along the lines of "l*b1*h1-b2*h2" instead of "l*(b1*h1-b2*h2)"
17:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> with b1/b2/h1/h2 being some complex formulas
17:52:55 <Wolf01> The only thing that changed is the introduction of a constant in saveload
17:53:25 <Wolf01> To give a meaning to the version number used in afterload
17:58:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I used to get mocked for putting parentheses into formulas :P
17:58:41 <andythenorth> instead of committing the operation rules to memory, and parsing them every time I read a line
17:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i told the other guy who was involved with writing the code that the formulas are unnecessarily complex
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18:15:14 <Alberth> assign the formulas to temporary variables
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18:23:57 <Wolf01> Mmmmh... mmmh... I have a problem reading the type of a vehicle (road or tram), I get the subtype instead
18:28:51 <supermop> hmm need to remove exhaust pipe switch from 1900 and 1910 ish trucks
18:29:08 <supermop> dont fit on the old cabs
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18:39:34 <Wolf01> Ok, when loading a savegame the roadtype info is broken
18:42:16 <Wolf01> Uhm, no, I don't think that is the case, the default roadtypes have 0 max speed anyway
18:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so the data is reset somewhere and then not refilled with proper values
18:43:26 <Wolf01> No, I think it gets the wrong value for the cached max speed
18:48:10 <__ln__> so... should i buy cheap flights to Los Angeles in january..march?
18:48:53 <supermop> i mean LA is probably fine no matter when you go
18:49:01 <__ln__> no, max 1 week stay, but during those months
18:49:01 <supermop> unless you want to go swimming
18:49:21 <supermop> or if you want to spend time up in mountains
18:51:00 <__ln__> from finland, via sweden
18:51:16 <supermop> you are pretty much obligated to go at that price
18:51:22 <Wolf01> Ok, the vcache.cached_max_speed is not restored
18:51:34 <supermop> especially if it means escaping the arctic dark
18:52:27 <__ln__> yeah, obligated was what i felt also last year when i bought finland->new york + washington dc->finland for 355€
18:54:44 <supermop> what airline is this
18:55:24 <supermop> hmm short trailer still looks too long and modern on the old road trains
18:58:59 <supermop> well you'll need to find a cheap airbnb, and maybe rent a car
18:59:07 <supermop> but otherwise i'd say do it
19:00:06 <__ln__> i'm seriously considering it indeed
19:01:20 <supermop> im either going to do vietnam or honolulu with my wife's family around then, but i've yet to see good prices
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19:01:49 <Wolf01> I can't track the source of the problem, vehicles from vanilla work, vehicles from the same grf worked, no code was changed
19:04:33 <Wolf01> I need frosch here, or someone which can understand where the problem is
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19:19:38 <Wolf01> frosch123: Newgrf vehicles don't restore vcache.cached_max_speed like vanilla ones in NRT
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19:27:45 <frosch123> Wolf01: it is recomputed in vehicle_sl.cpp:402
19:28:38 <Wolf01> Eh, also gcache.track_max_speed is 0
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19:52:27 <andythenorth> 1. how to fix FIRS Steeltown?
19:52:45 <andythenorth> 2. I need some fast British trains inventing to suit the Horse rules
19:52:53 <andythenorth> must be plausible fake
19:53:04 <andythenorth> SLUG is not the answer btw
19:56:32 <V453000> andythenorth: 5 times faster rendering times :P
19:56:55 <andythenorth> go for 10 times next
19:57:11 <V453000> aka not going to happen :P
19:59:17 <andythenorth> maybe Horse schema all wrong
19:59:32 <andythenorth> started from slow steam locos and worked up
19:59:42 <andythenorth> maybe I should start from fastest train and work backwards
20:00:01 <andythenorth> Horse all bollocks again
20:04:13 <V453000> I started wondering if I should do 16/8 so don't worry about bollocks
20:14:42 <V453000> 100% official forum comments agree that they are WRONG
20:15:03 <andythenorth> Alberth killed palms?
20:15:46 <V453000> desert cacti don't look like cacti though
20:16:38 <frosch123> V453000: the palms look emo
20:16:46 <frosch123> you should emphasise that even more
20:17:08 <frosch123> a tree that wishes it would be a slug
20:18:34 <andythenorth> V453000 offends 10% of channel, statistically
20:27:23 <frosch123> does that assume 100% male?
20:27:40 <V453000> isn't not that far from reality :P
20:28:04 <frosch123> well, most are probably bots and dead bouncers
20:34:14 <andythenorth> varies a lot even in Europe
20:34:57 <andythenorth> UK, more male than female self-identify as LGBT
20:35:12 <andythenorth> other european countries tend to reverse that
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20:43:24 <V453000> sooo spikey cactus pink/green/brown thing is fav?
20:43:37 <V453000> I have 1 more ID to occupy after ditching the purple hanging down plant
20:43:47 <V453000> so one is getting a clone friend :D
20:44:13 <frosch123> do unicorns qualify as spikey?
20:44:27 <frosch123> also, do you have something resembling a durian?
20:46:36 <V453000> you're still on your durian fetish?
20:51:19 <andythenorth> ok Horse is now just one train
20:51:39 <andythenorth> 300mph, 10,000hp, 250t all cargos in 8/8
20:52:26 <V453000> btw 10k hp ain't enough for 300mph :P
20:52:48 <andythenorth> some kind of non-linear crap with HP<->speed?
20:53:05 <andythenorth> 3000hp is good for 100mph
20:53:31 <V453000> high speeds need fuckloads, especially TE related railtypes
20:53:56 <V453000> I don't know the exact function curve but from observation and experience yes
20:53:59 <V453000> look at nuts is all I can say :)
20:57:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you have space to name an engine "nut cracker"?
20:57:36 <andythenorth> sounds narrow gauge :P
20:58:45 <V453000> hm I don't have any dead horse engines
20:58:59 <frosch123> i remember some zombiehorse
20:59:14 <V453000> yeah nuts has some horse related engines
20:59:23 <V453000> new set doesn't though
20:59:37 <V453000> well new set has about as much as CETS has graphics, but ... :)
20:59:49 <frosch123> so you are almost done?
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21:01:12 <V453000> I've reworked the engine table multiple times already and today I even started wondering if they should be 8/8 or 16/8
21:03:45 <V453000> because 16/8 engines do have a lot of room for loooking badass
21:03:58 <V453000> like the superstrong and doombringer classes in nuts
21:05:05 <V453000> 16/8 would mean double the amount of engine sprites
21:05:09 <frosch123> as long as there spawn multiple smoke effects, long engines are fine
21:05:10 <V453000> which is kind of alright
21:05:40 <andythenorth> non-regular speed increases per generation
21:05:45 <frosch123> i never used the super strong engines in nuts, multiple strong were nicer
21:06:04 <frosch123> though i guess that broke when you went for 16/8 everything
21:07:19 <V453000> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
21:07:26 <frosch123> i know that titanic only had fake chimneys, but i think trains should just have as many
21:07:30 <V453000> my plan doesn't take into account dual headed trains
21:08:07 <V453000> maybe dual heading only express trains makes sense?
21:08:26 <V453000> shit that helps a lot
21:08:31 <frosch123> well, i still need an excuse to allow articulated dual-headed engines
21:08:35 * andythenorth putting in some dual-headed engines
21:08:41 <V453000> I don't need that frosch123 :P
21:08:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: “not needed"
21:09:00 <V453000> oh yeah plan doesn't work
21:09:09 <andythenorth> also, for v2 Horse, I have deleted all articulation, so I can use dual-head :P
21:09:18 <andythenorth> V453000: just make road vehicle set
21:09:23 <andythenorth> less roster bollocks
21:09:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: i thought dual-headed is for cabage and cucumber cars
21:09:35 <V453000> is same bollocks with less tools so it can't be made more awesome
21:10:21 <andythenorth> mph: 65, 80, 95, 110, 125, 140
21:10:27 <V453000> chameleon trains already work as articulated and dual headed
21:10:33 <andythenorth> and maybe some kind of super-speed crap at 180mph
21:10:37 <V453000> it just tells the wagons to camouflage as an engine
21:11:04 <V453000> I guess I will just do the same thing
21:12:47 <V453000> shit I'm overcomplicating it all
21:13:35 <V453000> eh ok got solution I guess
21:15:02 <frosch123> anything special in czech rep today?
21:15:17 <V453000> I don't read the news
21:15:22 <frosch123> why was there a thursday facts?
21:15:37 <frosch123> or is the date wrong :p
21:15:51 <V453000> yeah just wrong date because kovarex doesn't even read callendar
21:17:24 <supermop> andythenorth: old road trains: short wagons, or don't exist at all
21:20:06 <andythenorth> 125mph -> 186mph big stupid jump
21:20:10 <andythenorth> also players want
21:20:26 <andythenorth> how can I do it with a new railtype?
21:20:31 * andythenorth totally fails to understand railtypes
21:20:53 <andythenorth> All Railtypes Must Be Compatible
21:20:57 <andythenorth> due to conversion
21:21:23 * andythenorth totally confused
21:21:47 <supermop> 5 and 6 are 'old' trucks
21:21:58 <supermop> with the 'short' trailers
21:22:10 <andythenorth> and wheels at front
21:22:40 <supermop> the oldest rigid trucks have a shorter body, so i can composite new tiny trailers from those
21:24:09 <V453000> ok tropic done tomorrow
21:24:11 <V453000> toyland might be fast
21:24:18 <V453000> will go full retard mode
21:24:22 <supermop> im making dollies for the road train p-menu sprites
21:24:36 <supermop> maybe i can be arsed to add to the actual trucks
21:25:39 <supermop> 7 is a rigid truck with short body
21:26:59 <frosch123> wait what? you can have terminus stations in f?
21:27:42 <V453000> what the shit frosch123 ?
21:28:01 <frosch123> is that just my ottd mindset that trains can't reverse? :p
21:28:34 <V453000> in openttd trains reverse? :0
21:30:43 <andythenorth> nobody knows railtypes :|
21:32:59 <V453000> can I read which vehID is behind a wagon?
21:33:07 <V453000> so that it can adjust sprites based on it?
21:33:26 <V453000> that should be doable, right?
21:33:39 <Wolf01> I need a backup plan for this evening
21:34:09 <frosch123> it needs your favorite var[] magic though :)
21:34:13 <V453000> I'm going to do horrible thing with it
21:34:26 <V453000> I'll just force myself to learn it
21:34:42 <V453000> might be less of an obstacle now with some scripting experience
21:36:03 <Wolf01> frosch123: yes, you can have terminus stations in F, you only need to make trains doubleheaded, or you can drive trains manually but going backwards is slow
21:36:28 <V453000> you can have octopus station if you drive manually XD
21:36:29 <frosch123> i knew that i can drive backwards manually
21:36:36 <frosch123> i just did not get the dual-headed thing
21:37:03 <V453000> I'm just piling hacks on top of hacks and my plan is now saved again :D
21:37:06 <andythenorth> V453000: I just deleted all the next-vehicle var stuff in Horse, so you can have mine
21:40:48 <andythenorth> how can I implement high speed railtype?
21:41:42 <andythenorth> is there a way to make it compatible with RAIL / ELRL, but keep RAIL / ELRL trains off it?
21:44:29 <frosch123> what is compatible to what?
21:44:36 <V453000> do steamers really need tenders in my set?
21:45:25 <Wolf01> He doesn't want steam, diesel, slow electric trains travel on high speed
21:45:34 <frosch123> currently i like using tank wagons to transport 500° water from reator to outposts
21:45:53 <frosch123> ie.e. you can replace the tender with a tank wagon
21:46:07 <andythenorth> what Wolf01 said
21:46:08 <supermop> andythenorth: but you do want fast trains to go on Rail?
21:46:21 <andythenorth> I don’t understand how to make it work
21:46:27 <andythenorth> railtypes all have to be compatible
21:46:38 <andythenorth> due to convert and auto-replace
21:46:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: but hight speed can travel on RAIL?
21:47:04 <andythenorth> how else can you prevent stuck trains when player drags convert over whole map?
21:47:26 <frosch123> who would do that? :p
21:47:34 <frosch123> are you targeting stupid players?
21:47:40 <frosch123> or competitive ones?
21:47:54 <V453000> just don't prevent it?
21:47:55 <andythenorth> dunno, I’m totally confused about it :P
21:48:04 <supermop> andythenorth: also what about steam trains getting stuck if you make everything HSR
21:48:11 <V453000> a solution is providing universal railtype so you can convert whole map to it and unstop all trains
21:48:24 <V453000> I think that usually solves anything
21:48:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: if people replace all tracks at once, they should use tracks with date-dependant graphics
21:48:36 <V453000> admittedly I don't do that often
21:48:56 <frosch123> V453000: don't do csd set
21:48:59 <andythenorth> with cargo capacity V453000
21:49:18 <frosch123> csd has some 5 tile articulated things
21:49:26 <andythenorth> so Horse needs to include universal railtype too? :|
21:49:29 <frosch123> which represent some very specific train setup
21:49:32 <andythenorth> but what is point of railtypes then
21:49:34 <V453000> I'll probably fit it into 16/8
21:49:41 <V453000> but drawing out a long badass steamer is just great
21:49:41 <andythenorth> V453000: 24/8 is good
21:49:58 <V453000> no andythenorth 24/8 is fucking trash, you should know better
21:51:10 <V453000> well I am since forever saying that csd set is bullcrap
21:51:11 <frosch123> they essentially removed wagons, you purchase the whole train at once
21:51:29 <V453000> don't worry I'm not going to do anything stupid like that
21:51:30 <frosch123> maybe andy should do that :)
21:51:42 <V453000> the long part will always be only engine and all engines will be the same length
21:52:00 <V453000> I'm not making NUTS2 but I learned things I won't just throw away :P
21:52:23 <V453000> it doesn't even look as a unit properly
21:52:27 <V453000> seems too much like 3
21:53:08 <andythenorth> yeah, but RL is never as good as faked
21:53:09 <V453000> this is going to work
21:53:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: ‘purchase the whole train at once’ o_O
21:53:30 <andythenorth> works great for trams
21:53:40 <andythenorth> ~all Hog trams same tile length
21:56:18 <V453000> guess I have to make vehicles so slim that you will have to zoom in to x4 to see them properly ;P
21:56:47 <V453000> nah this thing is so long it smells of compensation
21:57:26 <V453000> no, normal gauge but just made smaller
21:57:30 <V453000> basically making tiles longer
21:58:02 <V453000> andythenorth: that's what autoreplace and upgrade trains button in depot is for?
21:58:07 <andythenorth> how is railtype upgrading supposed to work?
21:58:08 <V453000> yeah you can't do it from the map but...
21:58:37 <andythenorth> I can only understand railtypes that are 100% different (except for electrified / not types)
21:59:52 <andythenorth> solution will be found
22:00:11 <Wolf01> andythenorth: the solution is to give orders to slow train so they won't use the fast tracks
22:00:55 <andythenorth> not programmable signals?
22:00:58 <Wolf01> I use them a lot in TF
22:01:04 <andythenorth> railtypes can’t have a min. speed?
22:01:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: doesn't jgrpp have route restrictions?
22:01:16 <andythenorth> maybe, I found some magic signals
22:01:29 <andythenorth> didn’t understand them much, UI was odd
22:03:04 <andythenorth> what is problem?
22:03:22 <andythenorth> problem is slow railtype -> fast railtype?
22:03:38 <andythenorth> eh, not, no speed limits used
22:03:52 <Wolf01> Problem is: compatibility works x <-> y
22:03:54 <andythenorth> problem is player mass-converts track, all old trains stuck
22:04:01 <andythenorth> also problem is broken auto-replace
22:04:14 <andythenorth> and no consist management
22:04:23 <andythenorth> consist management solves all known problems
22:04:32 <andythenorth> except for the new ones it will create :P
22:11:18 <andythenorth> was the ‘ char broken in original TTD?
22:11:36 <andythenorth> for e.g. "’T.I.M’ (Electric)”
22:13:07 * andythenorth looking at original trains for inspiration
22:14:18 <V453000> that's how far he's gotten
22:14:58 <andythenorth> basically it was just solved in 1994
22:15:03 <andythenorth> just needs better graphics
22:15:34 <V453000> 1994 graphics are still best
22:15:49 <andythenorth> also how do I autoreplace AsiaStar to monorail?
22:15:54 <V453000> and vanilla vehicles give no variety really
22:16:02 <V453000> that's why grfs like universal rail exist
22:16:14 <andythenorth> universal rail is stupidest thing ever
22:16:20 <andythenorth> why not just have ‘one railtype'
22:16:30 <V453000> feel of big progression step
22:16:50 <V453000> even with the universal purr in nuts, having monorail and maglev is great
22:16:52 * andythenorth irritated with whole business
22:16:57 <V453000> gives you the feeling like it's something different
22:17:07 <andythenorth> completely unclear goals
22:17:10 <V453000> not to mention that maglev actually does work differently due to no T.E. bullshit
22:17:36 <andythenorth> what is goal again?
22:17:52 <V453000> idk what is your goal :D
22:18:09 <V453000> my goal is to make the best gameplay train set which builds on what I know from nuts
22:18:13 <Wolf01> Upgrading from rail to monorail to maglev is stupid, just start with maglev
22:18:15 <andythenorth> players asked for faster in Horse
22:18:58 <V453000> Wolf01: yeah but only because it's for such short period and because the monorail vehicles are worthless
22:19:06 <V453000> if it had decent stuff it would be perfectly fine
22:19:18 <V453000> in TT I guess it was still good because no maglev
22:20:11 <Wolf01> andythenorth: put a logic train with 9999999.99HP and make everyone happy
22:20:24 <andythenorth> already proposed
22:21:11 <andythenorth> very hard to make things you will never use
22:21:16 <andythenorth> improper amounts of not-caring
22:23:06 <V453000> I have some engines in nuts which I used just a few times
22:23:35 <V453000> oh yeah the monorail MEOW class I used really like twice
22:23:48 <V453000> .... would explain why they don't even have wagons for all cargoes done properly XD
22:25:22 <V453000> scrolling through nuts, the new train set will be glorious, but nuts will always have a place :)
22:25:38 <V453000> it's got something to scroll through the long list of useful engines
22:26:09 <V453000> I'm starting to spew trash
22:26:50 * andythenorth needs Eddi to explain the problem
22:26:56 <andythenorth> usually solves things
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23:07:10 <andythenorth> problem is high speed rail
23:09:50 <andythenorth> problem is boring :P
23:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so the problem is that you just don't want to do it?
23:12:32 <supermop> what roster are you thinking for?
23:13:06 <supermop> or rather, whats the problem in a stray pacer running along HS2 if user error leads it there
23:14:24 <andythenorth> I just don’t see the point of it
23:14:40 <andythenorth> but I don’t want a 125mph -> 180mph speed jump
23:14:54 <andythenorth> without some railtype change
23:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean high speed rail should be separated from the rest of the network?
23:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> HS1/Shinkansen/Maglev/...?
23:16:18 <andythenorth> I think you should have to build routes for it
23:16:22 <andythenorth> not just auto-replace
23:16:29 <andythenorth> but it has to be compatible
23:17:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the need to build new rails is usually about curve speed
23:19:08 <supermop> if it has to be separate, it is not compatible
23:19:36 <supermop> if you find dedicated HSR boring, then don't bother with it?
23:19:52 <supermop> does IH really have any now?
23:21:33 <supermop> in a 'japan' roster, high speed is interesting because it is a new, non-compatible network, completely different in kind and gauge, built from scratch
23:21:56 <supermop> in a UK roster, its really just 'the same track but better'
23:21:59 <andythenorth> how does that solve the convert bug?
23:22:08 <andythenorth> or the autoreplace problem?
23:22:30 <supermop> what is the problem?
23:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not a bug, that's a user error
23:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> like crashing trains from removing signals
23:23:06 <supermop> if you want to force user to build a new route, then they should build new routes
23:23:08 <FLHerne> It should just be impossible to convert tracks to an incompatible type :P
23:23:15 <supermop> not convert and auto replace
23:23:36 <FLHerne> Not an error, just ignore it, so you can do mass-conversions of other types by area
23:23:43 <supermop> if you want user to incrementally upgrade, then they can convert and auto replace
23:23:50 <supermop> neither is really a problem
23:23:58 <supermop> you just can't do it both ways
23:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you can ultimately not force your playstyle on the players
23:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> everyone will bring their own spin to it
23:24:44 <supermop> because you are saying " all trains must be red" and also " trains can be blue"
23:25:35 <andythenorth> I don’t want to force playstyle
23:25:39 <andythenorth> but game is broken
23:26:04 <andythenorth> it’s even in the wiki
23:26:05 <supermop> you can't upgrade a rail line to monorail in TTO
23:26:21 <supermop> trains can get stuck by missing wires
23:26:32 <andythenorth> "Extreme care must be exercised when upgrading ordinary rail to electrified rail as it is very difficult to spot small pieces of non-electrified rail that you may have missed (especially since track with a train on it will not be upgraded)."
23:26:39 <supermop> missing piece of track
23:26:46 <supermop> deadlocked junctions
23:27:27 <supermop> ok but you said hsr should be new routes
23:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sentence seems like 10 years outdated
23:27:29 * andythenorth wonders why Horse 1 doesn’t have this problem
23:27:49 <andythenorth> supermop: if it’s new routes, then can’t auto-replace
23:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> we allowed conversion of rails to electric when train is on them ages ago
23:27:59 <supermop> is it 'new right of way' or is it 'same track but better'
23:28:18 <supermop> andythenorth: i don't see the problem in that sentence
23:28:27 <andythenorth> problem is unmeetable goals
23:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think your "goals" are both too fluid to pin down and too contradictory to reconcile
23:29:30 <supermop> ok put it this way - what is the reason to forbid a slow standard gauge train on a fast standard gauge track
23:29:31 <andythenorth> they are paradoxical afaict
23:30:00 <supermop> there is a reason, but it's not clear that you want it,
23:30:07 <andythenorth> so why have the extra railtype?
23:30:17 <supermop> reason being to force players to build a new network type
23:30:18 <andythenorth> it adds nothing, just makes railtype menu longer
23:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> realism/variety/maintenance costs/...
23:30:31 <supermop> andythenorth: pay more $ for more speed
23:31:01 <andythenorth> and breaking autoreplace
23:31:06 <andythenorth> and leaving stuck trains
23:31:57 <supermop> if you are just going to drag convert rail tool over whole map i dont think you are going to care about other features of the grf
23:34:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so, anyone got any suggestion for the least interesting election in recent history?
23:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: all of them
23:35:01 <supermop> here is a slow vehicle that somehow manages to drive on a fast rail
23:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and at the same time none of them
23:35:31 <andythenorth> supermop: agreed, but the railtypes in Horse have no speed limits
23:35:44 <andythenorth> the speed is in the trains
23:36:00 <andythenorth> and if the trains have to be cross-compatible, why bother with the new railtype?
23:36:00 <supermop> then there is no reason for a separate HSR railtype
23:36:11 <andythenorth> this was my confusion
23:36:21 <supermop> think of it less as a maglev
23:36:27 <supermop> and more like an HST
23:36:30 <andythenorth> so no fast trains in Horse
23:36:49 <supermop> ECML is just regular rail, happens to be pretty straight
23:37:16 <supermop> so a faster regular train can drive faster on it than on a curvy track
23:37:19 <andythenorth> also not very fast
23:37:29 <andythenorth> realism is intervening
23:37:42 <andythenorth> UK trains don’t go above 125mph, except on HS1
23:38:18 <supermop> yeah but from a horse point of view, HS1 is just like the ECML, but maybe straighter and flatter
23:38:48 <andythenorth> so what’s the conclusion?
23:38:50 <supermop> ballast, wire tension, rail welds dont show up in termite
23:38:52 <andythenorth> 199mph trains or not?
23:39:17 <andythenorth> seems like a huge jump, 125mph -> 199mph
23:39:20 <Eddi|zuHause> what are the reasons against adding a fast train (without new railtype)?
23:39:24 <supermop> in TTO the asia star runs fine on ELRL so long as you give it room to accelerate
23:39:29 <andythenorth> just the progression jump
23:39:36 <andythenorth> sticks out as weird
23:39:49 <andythenorth> most generations gain 15mph
23:39:50 <supermop> progression can be annoying
23:40:09 <andythenorth> then suddenly 74mph jump
23:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what's that boost % for the other generations?
23:40:29 <supermop> once your network is dense, its probably not worth reworking everything for 15mph
23:40:38 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.13636363636
23:40:43 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.15789473684
23:40:51 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.1875
23:41:04 <supermop> also UK trains could do 100mph in the 30s, and that top speed held for decades
23:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(199/125)
23:41:20 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.26174482365
23:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so you're essentially missing a generation inbetween
23:41:42 <Eddi|zuHause> then it should be fine
23:41:48 <supermop> HST is faster bc its gets to 125mph faster, and routing lets it stay there, not because of the 25 more mph
23:42:29 <andythenorth> so how fast for gen 6 (2020) ?
23:42:39 <andythenorth> gen 5 will be 125mph
23:42:42 <supermop> how fast do trains go now
23:42:55 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 156.25
23:42:55 <andythenorth> RL? 125mph / 186mph
23:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 125*1.25**2
23:43:00 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 195.3125
23:43:07 <andythenorth> upgrades are coming on stream for 140mph / 199mph
23:43:18 <supermop> idk uk trains were supposed to go 150mph in the 80s
23:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so 125, 155 and 195 would be logical steps
23:43:35 <andythenorth> but the money wasn’t there
23:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> each 25% faster than the one before
23:43:40 <andythenorth> and now the paths wouldn’t be there
23:43:52 <andythenorth> 140mph train paths are a PITA, braking distances etc
23:44:05 <andythenorth> and any preceeding trains have to get over the network without delay
23:44:08 <supermop> that's your new route
23:44:29 <supermop> its not the $$$ track, its just a line free of slower traffic, if you want it to be
23:44:30 <andythenorth> nah, I can’t see how new routes using types can ever work in OpenTTD
23:44:45 <supermop> thats what im saying
23:44:54 <andythenorth> you mean just don’t route slow trains on it?
23:45:03 <supermop> new and old routes are both RAIL
23:45:26 <supermop> just if your old rail cant fit a train running 200mph on it, you build a new one
23:45:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 125, 155, 195 is remarkably close to RL :P
23:45:55 <andythenorth> ok so is gen 6 140mph, or 199mph?
23:46:18 <andythenorth> horse 1 tops out at 155mph, I’m not sure ‘slower’ in v2 is going to be acceptable
23:46:22 <supermop> the shinkansen being SG, flat, and straight was just a bonus - the point of the project was the literal translation ' new trunk line'
23:46:33 <supermop> because the tokaido trunk line was full
23:46:48 <supermop> the Chuo Maglev is kind of the same
23:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, those km/h numbers are also pretty close to the german progression from the BR103 (200km/h, 1970s), ICE1 (280km/h, 1990s) and ICE3 (330km/h, 2010s)
23:47:08 <supermop> 500kmh is nice, but really the shinkansen is kind of full
23:47:37 <supermop> so if you need to build a whole new line again, might as well make it maglev
23:48:07 <supermop> in a uk-ish situation, just stick to SG rail
23:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: maglev in germany failed, for mostly political reasons
23:48:47 <Wolf01> I'll sleepflix, ping me if required :P
23:48:55 <supermop> in japan its not 'competing' with anything
23:49:10 <supermop> because its being built by the operator of the line it will compete with
23:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that was never the problem
23:49:53 <supermop> if DB built the transrapid between two cities because the conventional rail between them was too full, maybe it would have a better shot?
23:50:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the transrapid basically faced 3 problems: 1) it's very expensive, 2) all the NIMBYs, 3) regional politicians wanting in-between stops and reroutings, watering down all the benefits it could have had
23:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> specifically the planned Berlin-Hamburg line failed on 2+3, and the planned munich airport line failed on 1
23:51:43 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: chuo shinkanse has the 'benefit' of cutting through less populated areas
23:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the berlin-hamburg line would have run through mostly empty territory as well
23:52:13 <supermop> so it can stop at every city on the way, and still have fewer stops than the tokaido shinkansen
23:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but still, there are politicians ruling those empty areas
23:52:48 <supermop> i guess in japan JR is king
23:52:53 <supermop> and just gets what it wants
23:53:25 <supermop> rather Tokyo and Osaka are powerful enough to ignore prefectures in between
23:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with Berlin-Hamburg was the state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, the least densely populated of all the german states. they demanded that in exchange for allowing the route through their state, they must add a stop in their capital of Schwerin
23:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> which isn't on the direct path, making the route longer, and there's really no demand for that either, as it's not a very large city
23:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not even the largest of the state itself
23:56:30 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: that empty territory still likely had farms
23:56:48 <Eddi|zuHause> mostly forest and lakes :p
23:56:58 <supermop> yeah, federal system like here
23:57:02 <andythenorth> supermop: nasty compromise. gen 6 at 160mph? :P
23:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and a huge exodus of people in the past 25 years
23:57:30 <supermop> why amtrak has to stop in every tiny town it passes
23:57:35 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, nobody lives there anymore except at the coast line
23:58:21 <supermop> in japan, prefectures aren't really in a position to 'allow' or forbid a line through them
23:59:23 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the other problem that line faced was environmentalists
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