IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-09-21
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00:44:06 <peter1138> Scale is wrong on that mod, though :(
00:44:34 <Wolf01> Like there was something right in minecraft :(
00:45:15 <Wolf01> I think MC and TT can compete with the scale problems
00:46:04 <peter1138> There's a different mod that gives a better scale, iirc.
00:47:27 <peter1138> Hmm, no, I was imagining it.
00:51:19 <Wolf01> Maybe I could make a rooster of the most strangest locomotives I find, like the big boy cab forward, the "half locomotive", the 4-units articulated, some weird steam prototypes and some huge gas turbine electric locomotives
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07:49:43 <V453000> yeah I saw it Wolf01 :)
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08:13:45 <V453000> now I see what you meant by forum drama
08:13:54 <V453000> I don't like that dude, nuff said
08:26:41 <V453000> so I've got a typical andythenorth vs. FS problem, I looked at my BRIX trello for 0.0.2 and there is a load of work for the next version even when ignoring trees
08:26:54 <V453000> the problem is all of them are kind of really good to do :D
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08:32:55 <andythenorth> V453000: is easy
08:33:09 <andythenorth> trello has tags or filters or something?
08:34:58 <andythenorth> tag everything as ‘later’, make a saved search
08:35:04 <andythenorth> hide them, profit
08:50:21 <andythenorth> milestones innit
08:50:27 <andythenorth> my FIRS ‘later’ list is massive
08:50:36 <andythenorth> but ‘later’ is not ‘now’ so it’s no bother
08:53:46 * V453000 has updated his train plan progression table yet again
08:56:10 <V453000> iz for long talk and when you see it all together you will shit self
08:56:19 <V453000> showing bits would remove surprise later :P
08:56:29 <V453000> same time I am not sure I will be able to keep the glorious secret for that long
08:56:49 * andythenorth hopes for just one train, always boss
08:57:03 <andythenorth> and AI builds it for you
09:00:13 <V453000> I'll try to keep it secret for now :) it's nothing revolutionary that would really help you in your stuff
09:00:21 <V453000> so it's just "yo, table"
09:01:08 <V453000> which is masturbating over faggot-level expert gameplay, which is probably not your target audience
09:01:17 <V453000> like really fucked up way
09:01:46 <V453000> what I will show you in a minute however is wip tropic trees :)
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09:08:58 <V453000> how the fuck many tree building restrictions does tropic have! WTF XD
09:12:35 <V453000> will be big changes and this is just 1 growth stage so there will be a lot more density
09:12:57 <V453000> the giant green trees will probably go completely
09:13:12 <V453000> with more density they would just be too much
09:14:12 <V453000> colours are fucked, blaba
09:14:42 <V453000> I'll probably add the grass leaves everywhere to every tree sprite
09:14:52 <V453000> moar overgrown garden feel
09:18:40 <andythenorth> railtypes are ass
09:21:09 <andythenorth> no minimum speed limit
09:23:12 <V453000> I find that unnecessary
09:23:31 <V453000> if you are mixing tracks in the game then shit is already going bad
09:24:07 <V453000> and a fast train with horrible acceleration can actually be slower than a slow train with great acceleration
09:25:19 <andythenorth> also railtype conversion is just ass
09:25:32 <andythenorth> because of trains stuck on wrong railtype
09:25:41 <andythenorth> and 27 million FS requests for extra shit to fix that
09:26:22 <andythenorth> frosch has right idea for roads: upgrade instead of convert
09:26:25 <andythenorth> no stuck vehicles
09:27:59 <V453000> so if you convert rail to maglev, the vehicles would just continue running?
09:29:34 <V453000> idea isn't dumb, the rails are kind of just a visual replacement except vehicles can't run on the other ones ... I can see some people rage about how it does not make sense though, and to some degree they would also be right because it further makes them really just a graphical replacement :D
09:29:36 <V453000> if that makes any sense
09:33:25 <andythenorth> upgrade would only work if the railtypes were compatible
09:33:42 <andythenorth> so if someone defines RAIL -> MGLV as compatible, then yeah
09:33:58 <V453000> ok so how do I convert rail to maglev? :D
09:34:06 <andythenorth> some kind of upgrade tool
09:34:09 <andythenorth> instead of convert
09:34:12 <andythenorth> details to be worked out tbh
09:34:27 <andythenorth> current set up is bollocks
09:34:47 <andythenorth> like, remove ~80% of yak-shaving because can drag monorail over whole map
09:34:52 <andythenorth> but then all trains lost, broken
09:34:56 <peter1138> roads are different to rails
09:34:59 <andythenorth> players complains
09:35:17 <andythenorth> $everyone is stupid :)
09:35:26 <peter1138> get rid of the convert tool
09:35:35 <peter1138> manual replacement only
09:36:27 <andythenorth> overbuilding is already implemented
09:36:35 <peter1138> well i guess the upgrade only if compatible idea makes sense
09:36:36 <V453000> well all trains are lost when player builds 1 signals in the wrong direction :P
09:36:46 <andythenorth> RAIL -> ELRL, just by overbuilding
09:36:51 <andythenorth> convert tool never needed
09:37:16 <peter1138> but with that players would scream too
09:37:18 <andythenorth> what else does game do that I don’t know :P
09:37:29 <peter1138> when they can't convert from elrail to maglev
09:37:32 <andythenorth> overbuilding every track piece :)
09:37:58 <peter1138> we should give the player a character that walks around the map
09:38:17 <andythenorth> all is well in best of all possible worlds
09:38:19 <peter1138> yeah and then steve has to walk to each piece of track
09:38:27 <peter1138> and then upgrade each piece
09:38:28 <andythenorth> navigate with cursor keys
09:38:35 <andythenorth> or build in dungeon style
09:38:47 <andythenorth> ‘overbuild track bits’
09:39:08 <peter1138> err, i was going to go to work. oops.
09:40:02 <andythenorth> V453000: how to separate fast and slow trains in game?
09:40:06 <andythenorth> assuming same railtype?
09:40:13 <andythenorth> some pre-signal crap?
09:40:16 <peter1138> build separate networks
09:40:19 <V453000> you simply don't do that shit
09:40:32 <peter1138> those programmable signals probably allow it
09:40:41 * andythenorth usually builds separate networks
09:40:58 <V453000> you can use waypoints and conditional orders but if you are separating trains, then why not separate the whole network already
09:41:11 * andythenorth considering high-speed for Iron Horse, on dedicated railtype
09:41:14 <andythenorth> no cross-compatibility
09:41:38 <peter1138> mainly cos people want one giant network with automatic prioritisation
09:41:56 <V453000> well, then they should get trains with same speed :)
09:42:02 <andythenorth> + lots to all points
09:42:19 <V453000> is why people like 160km/h trains, they often have both pax and freight counterparts
09:42:24 <V453000> or similar combinations
09:42:31 <andythenorth> Horse deliberately designed to mess up networks with different railtypes
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09:44:42 <V453000> ok so grass is shitgray, snow and desert have colour :)
09:52:45 * andythenorth adds High Speed Tracks
09:53:54 <andythenorth> nah probably just not fun
10:16:46 <V453000> omg so looking forward to bve done with this brix nonsense
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10:24:22 <V453000> all the recolouring hacks
10:24:32 <V453000> it's such a mess, especially when they start mixing like on tunnels
10:31:20 <andythenorth> back to trains fun?
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11:36:27 * andythenorth needs to figure out some train class crap then
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12:09:43 <andythenorth> so last generation messes up my scheme
12:09:56 <andythenorth> if speed goes to 180mph+
12:09:59 <andythenorth> that’s only electric trains
12:10:49 <andythenorth> previous generations offer fast electric, and fast steam/diesel alternative
12:10:57 <andythenorth> Slavish Consistency
12:11:08 <Wolf01> andythenorth: what do you think? <Wolf01> Maybe I could make a rooster of the most strangest locomotives I find, like the big boy cab forward, the "half locomotive", the 4-units articulated, some weird steam prototypes and some huge gas turbine electric locomotives
12:11:23 <andythenorth> like HEQS, but trains
12:11:35 <andythenorth> you’ll have to fake all the stats for it to actually be fun :)
12:11:53 <andythenorth> never-built-prototypes are also good
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12:16:58 <V453000> what's the issue with 180+ andy?
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12:18:21 <andythenorth> realism says no diesel trains that fast
12:18:25 <andythenorth> so breaks my set rules
12:19:05 <andythenorth> also 180mph+ just bores me a bit
12:19:21 <V453000> I think you just go unused to it
12:19:25 <V453000> but that's honestly a bigger reason
12:19:46 <V453000> if you personally don't like it, that's enough
12:20:08 <andythenorth> gas turbine trains :P
12:20:24 <V453000> omg he is coming to consciousness!
12:21:59 <andythenorth> super duper gas turbine train, 150mph irl
12:22:09 <andythenorth> but all speeds are cheating in Horse, so 180mph :P
12:22:21 <V453000> well having only electric engines in the late years isn't against anything
12:23:00 <Wolf01> But could be a roster by itself
12:23:19 <V453000> I like it XD note-rt.gif - Any attempt to inject an element of reason into this series of pages will be forcibly rejected!
12:23:32 <V453000> yeah that also caught my attention
12:28:41 <andythenorth> there’s way more
12:29:25 <andythenorth> Horse fixed then, just copy those pages
12:31:22 <andythenorth> totally lost in that site now
12:32:06 <V453000> pretty awesome site for inspiration
12:33:34 <Wolf01> Too bad the site is like a word document
13:23:17 <Wolf01> Mmmh, Shay, Garratt, Climax, what am I missing?
13:27:55 <Wolf01> Yeah, both found yesterday
13:30:12 <Wolf01> It looks too much "classic"
13:30:19 <Wolf01> I'm looking for strange ones
13:32:01 <V453000> I think the rough idea of a scheme is already good enough for what you have, if you are looking at pictures, I would just start drawing right away, and fill in the scheme over time
13:32:18 <andythenorth> retcon the scheme :P
13:32:55 <Wolf01> Oh the one without fireplace how it was called?
13:36:14 <andythenorth> ^ that one I was going to add to Road Hog
14:11:24 <V453000> omg tropic tree chooser is such a load of wtf :D
14:11:28 <V453000> I don't even know if it's actually bad
14:11:39 <V453000> but some of trees just seem to be so rare
14:11:42 <V453000> while some of them are all over the place
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14:53:58 <V453000> I think the grass is awesome
14:54:14 <V453000> not sure if palm trees should be thrown away due to the scale shit
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14:54:56 <V453000> at the same time I feel like when you see the other objects like houses or the palm trees, that's what gives you the idea that the plants are so large and overgrown
14:55:09 <Wolf01> Grass/flowers are too tall or palms are too small
14:56:11 <V453000> not sure if you read what I just said XD
14:56:30 <andythenorth> small fat purple plants winning most
14:56:40 <Wolf01> I was writing it while looking at the screenshot, I read after I pressed enter
14:57:18 <V453000> maybe just throwing the palm trees away and substituting them with grass is better
14:57:31 <V453000> but yeah this is the concept
15:00:13 <V453000> so, remove palm trees?
15:05:58 <andythenorth> what’s wrong with palm trees?
15:06:45 <V453000> well the scale of all the plants is clearly massive
15:06:49 <V453000> and the palms in contrast are tiny
15:11:09 <Wolf01> Need NotTrees, with bigger sprites
15:11:20 <V453000> I could probably make bigger sprites
15:11:49 <V453000> but then I would make less of the palm trees, just rather rare, but really big
15:12:46 <Wolf01> With NotTrees that wouldn't be a problem, you would be able to set when they could be planted
15:15:13 <V453000> well that's not in my reality now, just want to make a base set thing :)
15:15:23 <V453000> even if there would be NotTrees
15:16:06 <Wolf01> That's the point, we'll remove trees from the game, so you will be forced to make a grf for those
15:16:56 <V453000> wtf does that solve :D
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15:21:54 <Wolf01> I think that is a problem of the AI, but also the squirrel vm should handle the crash more nicely
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15:44:34 <supermop> i like the cacti V453000
15:45:15 <V453000> moar work on those needs to be done too :) but yeah, a base
15:45:34 <supermop> the fly traps shouldn't grow in desert transition areas tho
15:49:06 <supermop> do transitions get all of the rainforest trees?
15:49:19 <supermop> we need NotTreeTypes
15:50:13 <supermop> maybe add some maguey
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17:04:14 <supermop> should i make 'correct' purchase menu sprites for mopRV?
17:07:03 <andythenorth> could spend the time making Horse suggestions instead :P
17:07:14 * andythenorth works better when rejecting other people’s ideas :)
17:07:18 <andythenorth> creates a stimulus
17:08:52 <supermop> didn't i share my japan horse roster with you like a year ago?
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17:12:44 <supermop> not google, on dev zon
17:13:02 <V453000> here I am complaining about how much work trees are
17:13:14 <V453000> for my train set I will need the same amount of sprites for engines ._.
17:13:31 <V453000> well I guess it's actually /8 since the rotations make themselves :)
17:14:26 <V453000> engine sprites: 432, cargo sprites: 12800
17:14:29 <V453000> sounds about right XD
17:15:18 <V453000> the cargoes are probably going to be even more, the list is using FIRS2 amount
17:15:27 <Alberth> rotations only work correctly if you also model the backside :)
17:16:00 <V453000> the front/backside is easy, problem is making a model which works in both diagonal and straigth track due to the stretching
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17:16:49 <Alberth> ah, yes, the nice diagonal mess :p
17:17:13 <andythenorth> just render them twice
17:17:57 <supermop> V453000: do like pikka and just fuck it
17:18:05 <V453000> yeah just like ignoring 8bpp
17:18:19 <V453000> not spending hundreds of hours with something and not doing it properly
17:19:42 <V453000> esp since this train set I am treating as my masterpiece
17:19:56 <V453000> NUTS is great, this has to be shitpants glorious
17:20:42 <supermop> patch game to fix diagonals
17:21:08 <supermop> seemed like pika was trying to force a move in that direction
17:21:23 <V453000> yeah that's not the way to do it :P
17:21:29 <supermop> hmm my roster has a fair amount of 5 and 7/8
17:21:40 <supermop> i guess that won't fly with andy anymore
17:22:50 * V453000 laughs due to his evil influence
17:24:16 <supermop> i never even got as far as convincing him on EMUs that are longer than one car for the japan roster
17:25:10 <supermop> andythenorth: the 'don't work with assholes' poster is a bit ricj
17:25:20 <Wolf01> andythenorth: did you see any photo from skaerbaek?
17:25:26 <supermop> i wish i was afforded that discretion
17:25:56 <supermop> for me that poster would have to be shortened to 'don't work' to remain viable
17:26:14 <andythenorth> 4/8, 6/8, 10/8, 12/8, 16/8
17:26:29 <andythenorth> also I worked out that articulated 2*5/8 is interesting
17:26:41 <andythenorth> but I didn’t use it because articulated seemed weird when I tried it
17:27:20 <andythenorth> V453000: nobody looks at \ / anyway
17:27:27 <andythenorth> just make – view epic
17:27:35 <Wolf01> My groups are showing some on whatsapp
17:27:57 <V453000> I'm just going to avoid too round shapes
17:27:58 <supermop> andythenorth: love it when rich designers say shit like 'i should have been/could have been and architect'
17:28:46 <supermop> because it seems like it would have been so easy to them
17:28:57 <supermop> that's just what we need,
17:28:59 <andythenorth> I could have been an architect
17:29:10 <andythenorth> except I stopped trying :P
17:30:22 <supermop> so what is an emu in iron crane?
17:30:40 <supermop> rake of 10 individual electric rail cars is dumb
17:30:56 <andythenorth> I wondered about that with the railcars
17:31:13 <andythenorth> I think it’s neat being able to choose lengths in 8/8 though
17:31:16 <supermop> UK has/had short 1 and 2 car dmus running about
17:31:31 <supermop> japan also has 1 car dmus
17:31:37 <andythenorth> sets with fixed consists > 16/8 irritate me
17:31:53 <supermop> but the bread and butter of 'japan-rail-ness' is EMU sets
17:32:08 <andythenorth> solving this does actually solve my current Horse problem
17:32:24 <andythenorth> how to do, e.g. some (fake) Eurostar thing?
17:32:28 <supermop> locomotives and rakes for UK roster
17:32:29 <andythenorth> individual engines?
17:32:32 <andythenorth> dual head engines?
17:32:35 <andythenorth> powered carriages?
17:32:47 <supermop> eurostar is locomotives
17:32:48 <andythenorth> ordinary carriages, and cb 36 bollocks?
17:32:55 <supermop> unless you mean the newest
17:33:03 <andythenorth> ok, well maybe class 800 thing then, all coaches powered
17:33:10 <andythenorth> or Voyager or Adelante
17:33:15 <supermop> maybe it is doubled like the asiastar
17:33:18 <andythenorth> all have engines or motors under every coach
17:33:27 <supermop> that is an emu buddy
17:33:36 <andythenorth> but the front and rear coaches are pointy
17:34:00 <andythenorth> and the running costs scale wrong if building a consist out of 8/8 units
17:34:02 <supermop> either 1) powered coach becomes pointy when at end
17:34:27 <V453000> nuff irc, back to trees
17:34:35 <supermop> or 2) pointy bit and non pointy are separate vehicles
17:35:27 <supermop> or 3) you have to just buy in 2 tile chunks and deal with it?
17:35:56 <supermop> i had shinkansen as a 4 tile chunk in my concept, but never decided how emu should work
17:36:13 <supermop> shikansen sets are pretty long
17:36:45 <supermop> idk if they ever run 16+16
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18:11:32 <supermop> how long is purchase sprite?
18:12:00 <frosch123> as long as you want
18:12:29 <frosch123> the gui adjusts, it just looks silly when different grfs use different widths
18:12:43 <supermop> also playing a steeltown game last night with my RVs and UKRS2
18:13:07 <supermop> one mop road train in 1960 carries more than a 5 tile Coal train
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20:20:41 <V453000> point: the 8bpp converter I have is fucking amazing
20:21:02 <V453000> of course it's not better than 32bpp simply because it would have to be hand-drawn to be better, but shit it's functional
21:37:35 <supermop> hmm wonder if i should composite purchase sprites
21:39:40 <frosch123> could be useful for stuff like steam/electric icons
21:40:20 <frosch123> but i am not exactly sure the sprite stack will work there
21:40:29 <frosch123> purchase list is very special
21:41:48 <V453000> yeah gives you a lot of things to do
21:41:53 <V453000> or you can visualize empty/full wagon
21:57:27 <supermop> currently i have trailers that change graphics based on build year
21:57:36 <supermop> so i could change those
21:57:53 <yorick_> why not move code/issues/PR/code/releases to github? seems to work well for openrct. I think having github code review instead of patches submitted to tt-forums or FS might lower the bar for code contribution and review
21:58:32 <supermop> based on current year
22:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> how does that need compositing?
22:12:46 <__ln__> yorick_: what do reviews matter when you still need someone to actually commit.
22:22:19 <yorick_> __ln__: code is getting written, patchpacks happen, but not much is getting into trunk, citing code style or completeness issues
22:23:03 <__ln__> how would github help with that?
22:24:50 <yorick_> for one, it would provide a better interface than raw .diffs for most people. it would also allow anyone with a github account (which is lots of people) to contribute with just a few button-presses
22:25:46 <yorick_> the pull request thing allows inline commenting, auto-building/testing and one-click merging, for example
22:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're trying to solve a social problem with technology
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22:40:05 <V453000> yeah for example I hate andythenorth, I bought a new computer and it didn't help
22:42:39 <yorick_> Eddi|zuHause: what's the social problem? you can get more people contributing if you lower the barrier to entry
22:47:22 <Wolf01> yorick_: I don't think it changes at all, also, it might be confusing with different clones, for example you open a pull request in trunk for a new feature, then patchpackXYZ applies the patch, where you continue to follow it?
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22:51:31 <supermop> should the purchase sprite be very long (>64 px) to fit road trains and long trams in their entirety,
22:51:47 <supermop> or should i cut/fade them off like some sets do?
22:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yorick_: even if that were true, a) it increases the number of submissions faster than people who can review them show up, and b) it may lower the quality of submissions even further
22:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i'd fade/cut them off
22:53:11 <V453000> ... if the vehicle is clearly recognizable
22:53:37 <V453000> might also be nice to actually show the full length it it matters
22:53:55 <supermop> should be fine with road trains, as it will at least hint that there are 3 trailers
22:53:57 <V453000> depends how much space you need :) if you have short names it should be alright
22:54:16 <supermop> with the long trams, i dont know
22:54:30 <V453000> probably need some smart solution then
22:54:38 <supermop> long and medium trams of the same generation will probably look pretty similar
22:54:53 <V453000> shorten texts, fit moar trams :D
22:55:06 <supermop> V453000: but i like my verbose names
22:55:18 <supermop> although currently trams don't have as good of names
22:56:25 <V453000> well then you have to like verbose names or fat ass purchase sprites :D one of them gets more love
22:57:29 <V453000> big time progress on trees today
22:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause> with CETS i wanted to do something like "<__|/12/|__>"
22:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause> especially since i wanted to make some long chains in various lengths
22:59:46 <supermop> architecturally thats how you'd do it - use break lines to omit the stuff that is not a relevant condition
23:00:51 <supermop> like a long beam fastened to something on both sides, you'd cut out the middle of the beam to focus on the ends where the drawing is trying to convey some information
23:04:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, pretty much that
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23:12:01 <supermop> with a road train, however, the last trailer is not that interesting
23:12:19 <supermop> an indication of total length is helpful though
23:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could just put the number at the end then
23:12:58 <supermop> especially if you want to make sure to leave enough room for a loading truck to not block some intersection
23:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> or you can just put the length in the purchase text
23:13:23 <supermop> playing with the road trains, i find that they sort or break games
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