IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-09-15
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00:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, there's a modernisation wave going on, because former monopoly-operated regional networks are opened for "free market", typically with 15 year contracts. and lots of those mandated new trains, or heavily penalized offers with used trains
00:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> when these contracts go up for renewal after 15 years, they probably allow used trains, to make trains average age around 30 years
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10:26:28 <twb> Hi, I ship OpenTTD to prison inmates. The built-in package downloader stuff (bananas?) is disabled. Instead I have a crappy hand-written script to bundle a couple of packages into a Debian package (.deb), which gets installed on all the kiosks.
10:26:43 <twb> Inmates are whinging and asking for more content, so I'm looking at this code again.
10:27:04 <twb> Is there a way to get e.g. package dependencies out of bananas, rather than having to work it out by hand?
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10:29:34 <LordAro> that's a rather unusual situation!
10:29:50 <twb> It certainly has some interesting problems to solve :-)
10:30:28 <LordAro> have you thought about just packaging an existing content_download folder? i think ottd should read it from a global /etc/... folder (see readme 4.2)
10:30:59 <twb> It's easier for my version control if this is set up from a script rather than an interactive GUI
10:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you could try MUSA, but it's more targeted towards people who want to upload things to bananas rather than download it
10:32:13 <twb> But if you mean that I can just download the .tar.gz and not bother to unpack them, that's useful
10:32:17 <LordAro> i don't believe bananas itself has any form of dependency management, it's all handled by the client
10:32:27 <twb> LordAro: how does the client work out the dependencies?
10:32:33 <Eddi|zuHause> twb: openttd can read .tar files, but not .gz
10:32:36 <twb> LordAro: by trying to execute the scripts?
10:32:57 <LordAro> twb: honestly no idea :p it'll be in the source somewhere
10:33:18 <twb> I think last time I had a quick look at the source and went "this is too hard to understand, I can't be bothered"
10:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> twb: there is also a (ingame) console interface to bananas, rather than the gui
10:33:49 <LordAro> twb: but, i mean just copying your own (for example) content_download folder
10:33:55 <LordAro> they're fully portable
10:34:04 <twb> I don't actually play opentty myself
10:34:46 <LordAro> or whatever, just an existing ottd install with the content you want installed
10:34:53 <peter1138> Just download it all ;)
10:35:21 <twb> What's the total size of everything in bananas?
10:35:27 <peter1138> Along with those extra content packs that contain stuff that isn't on there.
10:35:42 <LordAro> tbh, there aren't many things except AIs that have any dependencies at all
10:35:52 <twb> LordAro: OK that's good to know
10:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> twb: multiple GB probably
10:35:55 <peter1138> Not massive, except for some of V453000's stuff.
10:36:21 <twb> yeah I'm trying to keep the total OS+apps size under about 4GB (before compression)
10:36:42 <twb> squashfs then gets it down to about 1-2GB, faster uploading to kiosks &c
10:37:08 <twb> But like the midi stuff is nice and small compared to modern games :-)
10:37:18 <peter1138> That is the openttdcoop content pack, it's 22MB.
10:37:33 <peter1138> I don't know what's included these days. It may just be stuff that isn't on Bananas I guess.
10:38:03 <Eddi|zuHause> twb: i think the bananas ingame console interface should work for you, you can put it in a script file that runs on game start, so you can run it from a build script
10:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that stuff is probably heavily outdated
10:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> except maybe the dbset :p
10:39:37 <peter1138> OH yeah, 2010. Duh.
10:39:38 <twb> So newGRF is basically "here's a bundle of content that improves all parts of the TTD experience" ?
10:39:56 <peter1138> Well, changes at least.
10:40:17 <twb> The baseline I'm using is whatever's in Debian
10:40:31 <twb> Which is 1.4.4 currently because I'm still shipping Debian oldstable
10:46:53 <twb> I'll build a fresh desktop with openttd installed, unblock direct network access (in the lab), then see what the in-app content manager can do
10:48:03 <Eddi|zuHause> they work somewhat like a package manager on linux
10:49:59 <twb> How come Queue.BinaryHeap is in both ailibs and gslibs --- does that mean if ai and gs both want to use it, it has to be downloaded twice?
10:52:00 <twb> It's not like it's big enough to matter
10:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> they probably only differ in a global search and replace for "AI" to "GS"
10:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but conceptually, those are separate scripting runtimes
10:53:44 <andythenorth> my newgrfs have coke and reefers
10:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> put ice cubes in the coke?`
11:07:49 <twb> does bananas just run over HTTP/HTTPS?
11:08:31 <twb> I punched a hole through the firewalls for that, but I might have screwed it up
11:20:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be two modes, one over http and one over a custom protocol, but i'm not sure about that
11:20:34 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
11:21:02 <__ln__> i guess back in the old days it was quite common to have prison inmates work with building railways.
11:22:06 <Eddi|zuHause> twb: so tcp port 3978
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11:27:29 <twb> __ln__: yep and in USA they are used to make all US military armour, because minimum wage laws do not apply to convicts
11:27:47 <twb> __ln__: same with laws against truck systems / company towns
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11:28:35 <twb> that's why they pass laws that keep up to 50% of adult males in some communities in prison at any one time -- slave labour
11:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there's certainly a reason why the US has more prisoners per capita than any other country in the world
11:33:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not because they have more criminal energy than the rest of the world
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11:58:39 <twb> Hrmph, I tried opening just 3978/TCP for bananas, and I get "Could not connect to the content server". time to tcpdump
12:04:16 <twb> Ohhhh, I know what's happening. Normally FORWARD isn't allowed at all, everything goes through an app proxy
12:04:29 <twb> But since this is going direct, I need to -j MASQUERADE
12:05:43 <peter1138> Not sure why it uses a custom protocol instead of HTTP, but hey.
12:05:53 <twb> peter1138: just to be annoying :-P
12:06:17 <twb> HTTP wouldn't have worked anyway unless you support speaking HTTPS *to* the proxy, which is only barely supported even in GUI browsers
12:08:08 <twb> Can I connect the ~ console to stdio, rather than accessing it via the little SDL window?
12:09:55 <LordAro> peter1138: all of the hysterical raisins
12:10:40 <twb> Once I've download content through the content manager, do I have to "activate" it somehow? It looks like for NewGRF, I have to explicitly add/remove it from the "active" list, and I guess other kinds of content have their own ways to load
12:11:18 <LordAro> i'd leave it up to the players to do it themselves
12:11:26 <LordAro> they're not always wanted, after all
12:11:59 <twb> I don't want to like download blade runner graphics and have every inmate see that by default :P
12:13:37 <twb> OK so as a test I downloaded (through the GUI) the Scott Joplin OBM, then did New Game, gear icon, and I can see it in the "Base Music" drop-down
12:13:57 <twb> How do I find out why it's greyed out?
12:15:17 <LordAro> can only change base game settings from the main menu
12:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> basesets (sound/music/graphics), NewGRFs and AIs/GameScripts have each their own setup screens in the main menu
12:23:45 <Wolf01> Bah, my pen is broken... I can't draw short lines
12:24:16 <Eddi|zuHause> draw long lines and cut them down to size?
12:24:35 <Wolf01> A bit difficult in the middle of a drawing
12:25:00 <twb> OK so the content manager makes ~/.local/share/openttd/content_download/ai/library/Queue.FibonacciHeap-3.tar
12:25:01 <Eddi|zuHause> man, this "Kindergarten" game is crazy :p
12:25:27 <twb> Where my old half-arsed stuff has /usr/share/games/openttd/ai/library/Queue.FibonacciHeap.2/library.nut
12:25:42 <Wolf01> Also I don't have anymore a good application which respond to the buttons... paint.net can't help
12:25:59 <twb> Although weirdly the Scott Joplin stuff is not in a .tar
12:26:35 <Eddi|zuHause> twb: it doesn't really matter which of the paths is used, and .tar also is irrelevant
12:27:05 <peter1138> Only music sets need to be untarred.
12:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> music might be special
12:28:18 <Wolf01> Bah, I should just trash this graphic tablet
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12:35:10 <Wolf01> Which free software could I use to sketch with the graphic tablet? Not gimp
12:37:36 <twb> Hrm, so I studied musa.py to see how to "scrape" the content data without bothering to start up an X display and openttd and everything
12:37:55 <twb> gnutls-cli --crlf content.openttd.org -p 3980
12:39:01 <Wolf01> I think I'll just go with Ink... if I find a way to enable it in this pc
12:43:05 <twb> Blergh it's past my bedtime and working out the HTTP-like wire protocol based on send_data() in musa.py is making me sleepy
12:51:15 <twb> Now to read network_content.cpp to work out how that's asking for a package listing
13:39:23 <Wolf01> I think today I'll minecraft all the rest of the spare time... like 5 hours...
13:42:46 <Wolf01> Is the one near the mythical Berlin mountain?
13:44:13 <twb> OK I'm definitely *definitely* going to bed now
13:44:18 <twb> thanks everybody for your help
14:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the only "mountains" in berlin are piles of rubble from WWII
14:05:10 <Wolf01> Nah, the other mountain
14:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't know what you mean
14:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Tempelhof closed in the mid 1990s
14:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Tempelhof was in west berlin, BER is near Schönefeld, which is just outside berlin
14:07:02 <Wolf01> Yes, they built a mountain there
14:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> they did quite a number of things in the Tempelhof area, like art installations, refugee camps, festivals, housing projects
14:08:40 <__ln__> but that certainly wasn't built in reality
14:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, i definitely haven't heard about that one before
14:11:27 <Wolf01> So the ticket I purchased for a trip there was a scam :(
14:12:45 <__ln__> how suspicious is it that Wolf01 complains about a mountain scam, and mr. Montaña immediately quits?
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15:20:20 <supermop> up all night with jet lag, trying to think of some way a game could be both cute and fun, and have rivet-counting shunting or pointwork etc
15:20:37 <supermop> well first was trying to think of some kind of cute tram or metro game
15:22:34 <supermop> but tram and metro systems are simple in a way that they are impossible to make a game out of unless make maddeningly complex
15:28:49 <crem> Anyone from Arstotzka? Have a visa question!
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15:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: everybody knows that the most important thing is the name!
15:49:07 <supermop> maybe something where you collect trams
15:50:50 <supermop> but unless it's stupidly complex, all you'd see is your tram going back and forth
15:54:22 <supermop> idk i guess neko atsume but with trams?
15:56:51 <andythenorth> supermop: played Mini Metro? o_O
15:58:06 <supermop> andythenorth: i was an early backer
15:58:25 <supermop> but thats sort of what i am saying, its way too simple
15:58:40 <supermop> and instead of a cute tram, its a rectangle
15:58:58 <supermop> im thinking something that has crossovers, platforms, pointwork
15:59:07 <supermop> but not a whole network
15:59:27 <supermop> like a chibi shunting puzzle, but for passenger operations
15:59:44 <supermop> so basically tram atsume
16:01:42 <supermop> like your terminus has stupid pointwork, so all your trams pile up and get delayed and get angry with you
16:01:51 <supermop> maybe it is tram tamagochi
16:01:54 <andythenorth> yeah Mini Metro isn’t a train game
16:01:59 <andythenorth> just a shape matching game
16:03:20 <supermop> feed tram more amps of 600V DC
16:04:24 <supermop> or it could be like denshya de D
16:07:02 <supermop> drawn any more large logoish ponies?
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16:17:22 <stefino> Hi I have a question about vehicle length. Maximum length is 8 but we are making more realistic sets and need longer "boxes" for our vehicles. We solved it with invisible parts what are articulated ahead of the vehicle and behind the vehicle. It work correcly but the problem is at bridges.As you can see in the picture. Main graphics is loaded at the middle box (front and rear boxes are not displayed) and if vehicle goes throw the bridge,
16:17:47 <stefino> eground sprite. This all will be OK if the game will provide longer boxes than 8. Is it possible to make these boxes with maximum length 16? It will be really helpfull for us and provide better ingame graphics result that current flashing graphics on the bridges and another tiles where the game uses foreground/background tiles.
16:18:02 <stefino> Thanks for the answer :)
16:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: unfortunately, it's not as easy to enlarge the boxes, because larger boxes means there are more cases where the sprite order cannot be resolved properly, causing more glitches elsewhere
16:20:17 <Eddi|zuHause> also, that link fails
16:21:33 <stefino> it is only picture with this bug
16:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: my approach to that is to also cut down the sprite, showing 1/3 in the first "invisible" vehicle, 1/3 in the middle, and 1/3 in the last "invisible" vehicle
16:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> only in curves you must show the vehicle as one sprite
16:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it is pretty tricky though
16:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and does not fix all cases
16:25:20 * andythenorth is doing chibi vehicles instead
16:25:27 <andythenorth> max 8/8, or visibly articulated for longer
16:25:30 <andythenorth> constraints are good
16:26:20 <stefino> yes I was thinking about that but enlarge the boxes will be much easier than this. But I have no idea how difficult is it. But as you rote that it has some another problems - you tried it before?
16:26:50 <andythenorth> if I un-archive that .xz I get a .cpgz
16:27:00 <andythenorth> and unarchiving that gives a .xz
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16:29:33 <stefino> interesting but totaly incomprehensible to me :D I'm happy if I succesfuly code new trains/buildings and another things into the game
16:29:56 <andythenorth> make shorter trains :)
16:30:33 <stefino> this is our problem. because we like realistic graphics and short trains are not realistic :) :/
16:31:15 <andythenorth> is problem yes :)
16:31:25 <andythenorth> tried MS Train Simulator? o_O
16:32:32 <stefino> and trains are more handicaped with this graphics lag than cars cause they are longer. you are quite right :P we are using 3D models from these simulaors :D :P
16:36:04 <andythenorth> I had trains up to 10/8 long in Iron Horse 1
16:36:08 <stefino> in the worst case we have to satisfy with flashing graphics but it is a shame
16:36:12 <andythenorth> but for v2, I’m reducing them all to 8/8
16:36:45 <stefino> yes but you make 8bpp or not?
16:37:28 <stefino> yes..8bpp is more accessible than extrazoom in 32bpp
16:38:16 <stefino> if you take realistic wagon and make it shorter for 8/8 , it looks realy crazy
16:39:21 <stefino> we make length deformation too but not so big as OTTD wants
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16:42:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it is a nice effect :)
16:42:08 <stefino> it looks interesting - more Z axis rotations than 8?
16:42:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and all abusing some newgrf variables, not changing the actual game internals
16:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, you check how the 3 part vehicles are positioned (all straight, first one turned 45° others straight, etc.)
16:44:57 <stefino> yes yes I understand :) nice idea
16:46:45 <stefino> you are switching active graphics between these 3 boxes what makes a wagon
16:47:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, if they are all straight, each vehicle shows a slice of the whole vehicle, and if any turns/height changes are present, the center vehicle shows the whole sprite, the others invisible
16:49:38 <stefino> is this graphics on dev zone?
16:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: i posted a link earlier where you can download it
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16:55:21 <stefino> I'm trying to understand the code :D
16:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately, nml does not have the ability to work with varibables that take parameters properly
16:57:20 <Eddi|zuHause> so it has to be done via "var[]"
16:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> SLICE will be 0 for the center vehicle, -1 for the front vehicle, and +1 for the back vehicle
16:59:50 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure anymore
17:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so lets take apart the first switch formula:
17:01:03 <Eddi|zuHause> ((var[0x62, 24, 0x000000FF, -1 - (SLICE)] - var[0x62, 24, 0x000000FF, -0 - (SLICE)]) & 0xFF) << 8
17:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> | ((var[0x62, 24, 0x000000FF, -0 - (SLICE)] - var[0x62, 24, 0x000000FF, 1 - (SLICE)]) & 0xFF))
17:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the first part checks the height difference between the front and the middle part
17:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and the second part checks the height difference between middle and back part
17:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> if both are 0, you branch to the spriteset that shows the sliced vehicles
17:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you show the full sprite for the middle part (SLICE == 0) and invisible sprite for the other parts
17:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the second switch works in a similar way, just it extracts the direction part instead of the height part from var62
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17:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if all changes are 0 you go to the height switch, because the vehicle is straight
17:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause> if one of the changes is "1" or "F" (turn right or left, i forgot which way around) you show one of the various angles
17:06:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and the last line in that is some fallback for weird combinations
17:07:22 <Eddi|zuHause> again, if SLICE is not 0, you show invisible sprites instead
17:08:21 <stefino> ok this looks "easy" now
17:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and the last switch checks whether the sprite you're resolving currently is in the world (viewport) or some gui (like train list, purchase window, etc.)
17:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> because you don't want any of this angle magic in the gui
17:10:37 <stefino> okay. and in the hight case the wagon changed graphics too? rotate in y axis?
17:10:48 <Eddi|zuHause> currently not, but it would be possible
17:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the options inside the switch would look more like in the second switch in that case
17:11:49 <Eddi|zuHause> after the "if SLICE == 0" line
17:14:22 <stefino> um...interesting . and one more question - i can't imagine the groups in second switch. I understad how it works but you have there 4 sprite groups. and one spritegroup is 1 possition of wagon. but there are more possitions than 4 or not? if you have asymetric vehicle
17:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well, each group has the 8 positions, like usual, for asymmetric vehicles
17:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and each of the sprite group cuts some different sections out of this file
17:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> some overlapping
17:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> some with different offset
17:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> figuring out these offsets is actually the tricky part
17:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause> because they're different for different vehicle lengths, directions, etc.
17:22:35 <Eddi|zuHause> for each of the angles, you take every 3rd of those blue sprite areas
17:23:23 <stefino> yes yes :) this sprite says everything :)
17:23:54 <stefino> so thanks a lot for explenation:)
17:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> aaaanyway... i think xkcd got it wrong, a lid at a knife fight might work out quite well, actually... you can use it as a shield and work on disarming the other person
17:26:46 <Eddi|zuHause> with guns it's trickier, depends on how close you can get to the other person before he's ready to shoot
17:27:28 <Wolf01> Too bad that slicing won't work with 32bpp :(
17:28:40 <Wolf01> Ok, you can do some antialiasing to mask the slicing points
17:28:52 <Wolf01> But the grf size will explode
17:28:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: this exact same code works with 32bpp sprites
17:29:21 <peter1138> Why would it be any different for 32bpp than 8bpp?
17:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the exact code already works with 32bpp sprites
17:30:03 <Wolf01> Oh, you have to draw the full wagon anyway, didn't see that last image
17:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> fun fact: on the screen it doesn't look any different if you slice it up and put it back together
17:30:14 <Wolf01> I thought it composed it
17:32:32 <supermop> i would only use this method for rendered sprites
17:32:58 <supermop> would be too painful to draw all those angles
17:33:15 <supermop> i already get frustrated with the 8 views
17:33:36 <Eddi|zuHause> afair oberhümer put the focus on the 8 main views, and made the angles by some simple transformation tools
17:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> on the grounds that they're probably not on the screen for very long
17:46:33 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, rendered sprites really only shine for extra zoom, they might look terrible in normal zoom
17:52:09 <peter1138> When do we switch to a proper 3D engine :D
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17:56:05 <andythenorth> when we have XML for mods
18:06:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm too far out of the buzzword game to come up with something witty here
18:11:45 <Wolf01> AR OTTD would be cool, trains running on my desk
18:11:57 <Wolf01> From the biscuit mine to my mouth
18:12:31 <supermop> Wolf01: thats what i need with my tramagochi
18:12:37 <andythenorth> AR OpenTTD probably works
18:12:40 <andythenorth> trains on the desk
18:14:23 <supermop> i guess i could use cnc router to inlay small brass channels into a desktop at 9mm spacing
18:14:59 <Wolf01> Just buy a kato unirail
18:15:06 <supermop> might keep electrocuting myself on it though
18:21:28 <Sacro> Dunno if it's allowed to be in there or not
18:22:21 <Sacro> Yeah but on what grounds?
18:22:49 <Sacro> It's got some extra xml and p7x files, pri files
18:22:59 <Sacro> I guess there's a possible GPL claim on those
18:23:22 <__ln__> however, GPL violation is not a 'scam' really
18:23:57 <__ln__> also, GPL doesn't forbid selling stuff for money.
18:24:21 <__ln__> and i assume OpenTTD is not a registered trademark
18:24:32 <Wolf01> Ok, then I could sell OTTD too
18:25:47 <andythenorth> it’s a GPL violation
18:26:00 <andythenorth> no offer to provide source
18:26:25 <__ln__> did you buy it and check that there is no offer?
18:26:39 <andythenorth> someone buy it? o_O
18:27:14 <andythenorth> is the binary accompanied by a written offer to distribute source?
18:27:43 <Sacro> comes with the COPYING file
18:27:46 <Sacro> If you know where to find it
18:28:00 <andythenorth> “probably fine”?
18:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think the GPL has something about not needing a "written offer" for digital distribution, instead you must offer the source from the same place
18:29:30 <Wolf01> Then just purchase a dev license for windows store ($19 lifetime iirc) and put OTTD there for free
18:29:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: probably in the GPL FAQs somewhere :P
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18:48:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: someone already checked it
18:55:16 * andythenorth such wagon length headaches :D
18:58:33 <frosch123> make a platform length patch to make the size of tiles configurable
18:58:37 <frosch123> can't be worse than daylength
18:58:49 <andythenorth> I should just make all the engines consistent lengths
19:00:08 <andythenorth> I made it hard with steam engines at 6/8, 8/8, 10/8, 12/8
19:00:23 <andythenorth> makes for a lot of pax + mail cars in buy menu
19:01:18 <andythenorth> 3 generations of 4/8, 6/8, 8/8 pax and mail coaches
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19:19:44 <andythenorth> V453000: how long should trains be?
19:20:33 <V453000> units of 8/8 obviously :P
19:20:46 <Wolf01> More than 5 wagons said someone back in time
19:20:51 <V453000> can articulate stuff with smaller bits though
19:21:28 <V453000> well I consider 5 tile trains to be the golden standard, giant network people often prefer 3 tile trains
19:25:05 <andythenorth> 8/8 is problem for realism :P
19:26:19 <andythenorth> people built their RL trains wrong
19:26:22 <andythenorth> not considering my needs
19:26:45 <frosch123> V453000: andy wants engines with different lengths, but is obsessed with whole trains being whole tiles
19:26:57 <andythenorth> I won this for trams
19:27:04 <andythenorth> but trams can’t be recombined arbitrarily :P
19:27:26 <V453000> andythenorth: have articulated 1-units trains? XD force configurations
19:38:17 <V453000> yeah nevermind it's totes dumb idea :D
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19:55:19 <andythenorth> @seen simyoulater
19:55:19 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: simyoulater was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 23 hours, 43 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <SimYouLater> I only have had time to change my important passwords.
19:58:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you use autoreplace?
19:58:54 <andythenorth> autoreplace makes the coach problem much harder :P
19:59:22 <frosch123> so, if you built a train to full tile length with your 18 item purchase list, and replace the engine, it is wrong again?
19:59:23 <andythenorth> no mixed-cargo articulated consists
19:59:32 <andythenorth> it’s wrong again
19:59:44 <andythenorth> that is one of my problems, trying to work out a length schema
19:59:51 <frosch123> how about elongating the engines in the front with empty space *if* they are the first engine in the consist?
19:59:57 <supermop> integer tile trains and nice lengths for steam trains dont go together
20:00:00 <andythenorth> I need it to magically autoreplace to integer lengths, is brainfuck
20:00:05 <V453000> wtf are you doing andythenorth ?
20:00:16 <andythenorth> trains should be unit-tile lengths
20:00:16 <supermop> time to put dream to bed?
20:00:23 <V453000> just add tender when in doubt supermop :P
20:00:38 <supermop> nice to have, not need to have
20:00:38 <andythenorth> I can’t use the decimal lengths
20:00:47 <andythenorth> and we can’t fix maths
20:01:27 <frosch123> i guess when we change the vehicle movement for extra zoom, we should make it 60 substeps per tile :)
20:01:31 <andythenorth> I think consist templates might be needed
20:01:37 <andythenorth> just a small thing :P
20:01:46 <andythenorth> but eh, that’s the only missing feature in OpenTTD anyway
20:02:12 <supermop> refit wagons to different lengths
20:02:37 <frosch123> also, how much will 8bpp people complain if we draw engines with anti-aliasing at non-integer pixel positions?
20:02:45 <V453000> y u no new set if redoing :D
20:02:51 <V453000> is what I intend with nus
20:03:05 <V453000> it has issues, sure, but reworking it all isn't beneficial
20:03:54 <andythenorth> frosch123: can you draw them sharply on my retina screen? o_O
20:04:04 <andythenorth> I have sub-pixel drawing capability :P
20:04:07 <V453000> well I don't know how much rework you have in mind
20:05:07 <V453000> andythenorth: hm, what are issues?
20:05:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: will people complani if wagons sometimes have 2 or 3 pixel gaps between them?
20:05:37 <andythenorth> V453000: train lengths have no scheme
20:05:57 <andythenorth> train is 1.7 long, add 0.4 wagon, it’s 2.0
20:06:01 <andythenorth> such rounding crap
20:06:02 <V453000> what scheme do you imagine to get?
20:06:09 <V453000> oh, well ... told you :)
20:06:10 <andythenorth> 4/8 and 8/8 mostly
20:06:18 <V453000> you will always get that shit with wtf lengths
20:07:58 <andythenorth> except some things need to be 6/8 to look good
20:08:18 <V453000> 'need to' is just an excuse
20:08:51 <andythenorth> V453000: make argument for solution?
20:09:16 <andythenorth> if engines don’t get longer, wtf? Player needs ‘bigger’ to feel progression
20:09:22 <V453000> I believe you can always add length by more details or whatnot, or subtract by chibbializing
20:09:55 <V453000> NUTS solves that by having the engine getting shorter in the front
20:10:00 <V453000> so they tile correctly to wagons
20:10:08 <V453000> of course in multiengine setups this doesn't work as great
20:10:31 <V453000> in next train set I want to have consist-aware trains so they merge if they are multiple after one another
20:11:17 <V453000> ... it is getting shorter just visually, logically maintaining 8/8
20:13:11 <V453000> oh I am also obliged to tell you that I hate FIRS3 because suddenly many cargoes are unknown to NUTS and don't have unique graphics :D
20:14:30 <andythenorth> nah, I win by making you hate
20:14:37 <andythenorth> you need to draw PIPE
20:16:11 <V453000> without ability to define more custom signals (one of the fancy FS tasks you asked me about), I think PIPE is not a great concept. signals are necessary to make any train system work otherwise it's just dumb imo
20:16:22 <V453000> and making signals for it right now would be a pain esp in diagonals
20:16:40 <andythenorth> nah, I mean PIPE cargo
20:16:51 <V453000> I wouldn't do anything about it regardless :P
20:17:23 <V453000> vehicle parts, vehicles, pipes, and there was some more
20:17:26 <V453000> well I need to draw a bunch
20:17:45 <V453000> well I won't draw it for nuts probably :P
20:18:38 <andythenorth> well I am done adding to FIRS for a bit
20:18:43 <andythenorth> no v4 planned anytime soon
20:18:48 <andythenorth> next thing I have to do
20:18:57 <andythenorth> is fix the wall of shame that is Extreme economy
20:19:06 <andythenorth> don’t want to do that
20:19:10 <V453000> well I didn't even properly play v2 and now there is v3
20:19:26 * andythenorth doesn’t want to die leaving Extreme in current form
20:19:30 <andythenorth> unfinished business
20:19:56 <V453000> kind of out of the loop so I can't talk much about details in FIRS, steeltown seemed interesting but I kind of lost focus after I connected ES
20:20:18 <V453000> everything was max production before 1910 and I started in 1900
20:20:27 <andythenorth> I got 25 years out of it
20:20:40 <V453000> so I didn't feel incentivized to do more things
20:21:12 <andythenorth> it’s ‘connect all the chains once’ kind of gameplay
20:21:16 <andythenorth> then start a new map
20:21:23 <andythenorth> problem with Extreme
20:21:26 <V453000> it's a problem that you can spot everywhere in firs
20:21:34 <andythenorth> I designed it originally to try keeping game going
20:21:40 <andythenorth> but ‘moar’ is boring
20:21:53 <V453000> if I was to fix it somehow, I would make many more levels of production so that the high ones aren't that trivial to reach
20:22:06 <V453000> well moar can be less :P
20:22:21 <andythenorth> I considered ‘level up’ mechanic for supplies
20:22:23 <V453000> as in, have current gung-ho about the max, just have many more intermediate steps
20:22:39 <andythenorth> like once per year, if supplied enough, an increase
20:22:56 <andythenorth> gung-ho is kind of daft
20:23:34 <V453000> it is ridiculously easy to achieve
20:26:38 <andythenorth> well it’s designed specifically for NoCarGoal or Silicon Valley :)
20:26:44 <andythenorth> owing to…reasons :P
20:27:21 <andythenorth> this is the kind of FIRS-is-shit I am ok with :)
20:27:28 <andythenorth> at least I know why and how
20:27:46 <V453000> interesting approach :P
20:27:51 <andythenorth> v4: better production
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20:36:08 <andythenorth> so how will templated consists be done then?
20:36:19 <andythenorth> can we just do autoreplace with arithmetic?
20:36:31 <andythenorth> ‘for wagon foo, add 2 wagons bar'
20:36:54 <andythenorth> ‘for 2 wagon red, add one wagon blue’
20:40:31 <supermop> just save consists the way one makes groups?
20:41:19 <supermop> then in replace be able to select saved consists as if they they were vehicles
20:41:35 <supermop> like the now replacing engine/wagons
20:42:32 <supermop> so a consist may or may not be added behind some other vehicle i guess
20:46:20 <andythenorth> template consists means virtual trains and crap
20:46:26 <andythenorth> and newgrf shenanigans
20:46:34 <andythenorth> not sure anyone will ever achieve it
20:46:49 <andythenorth> wondering if ‘complicated replace rules’ is better
20:49:10 <Alberth> if you can script it, you basically have consists, except in script form rather than as already built (virtual) train
20:49:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: there are two patches for it
20:49:29 <andythenorth> I guess I have to try them :|
20:49:49 * andythenorth doesn’t understand how it can be done with newgrfs
20:50:01 <andythenorth> the virtual train won’t exist, so it won’t have a railtype
20:50:25 <andythenorth> newgrfs that make extensive use of cb36 are going to break]
20:50:37 <andythenorth> we’ll get another 30 FS asking for special variables in templates
20:50:57 <andythenorth> also the virtual train won’t have a lifetime or build date
20:52:31 <frosch123> the things you listed are dead easy to solve
20:52:47 <frosch123> date is just current date
20:52:50 <andythenorth> this is why andythenorth is not a programmer :|
20:52:59 <frosch123> it's most fitting because that's what other trains will be replaced with
20:53:45 <frosch123> just build a depot on tile 0 and stop trains in it
20:54:05 <frosch123> trains never age there, are always new
21:07:35 <andythenorth> did you mean ‘this is why we got stuck and NRT isn’t in trunk’ or so?
21:24:22 <V453000> can't seem to decide if I really want to make my next train set in pixel pushing or 3D pushing
21:24:45 <V453000> but I guess I can always return to nuts pixel pushing if I really wanted to do the former
21:24:50 <V453000> the fact that I don't already speaks for itself
21:25:06 <andythenorth> you’ll just get pissed off with them
21:25:15 <V453000> and ifn o aand if no EZ then grf not new enough
21:25:52 <V453000> and if no EZ then grf not new enough
21:26:09 <V453000> am on macbook, not used to this
21:26:53 <V453000> and pixel pushing x4 sprites sounds pretty fucked up
21:28:27 <andythenorth> type them in any order
21:29:17 <V453000> that's basically what I am doing, writing down a grf design document
21:29:31 <V453000> that piece of trash has been laying around my disks for too long
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21:34:35 * andythenorth might have found a way to have just 7 pax and mail cars
21:34:40 <andythenorth> including two classes of pax :P
21:35:08 <behindTheWheel> want to start play opentdd (played n years ago) should I start single game or connect to some server is ok ?
21:36:09 <behindTheWheel> dont want to spoil online game being a noob
21:41:31 <frosch123> different servers have different rules
21:41:52 <frosch123> there is no general rule except "dont be a dick"
21:44:22 <supermop> andythenorth: you could reduce generations of passenger cars
21:44:45 <supermop> have a mk3 that you can keep buying forever
21:45:19 <andythenorth> kind of the conclusion I’ve got to
21:47:27 <andythenorth> what shall I call that engine?
21:47:38 <andythenorth> ‘shredder’ isn’t right :P
21:56:57 <supermop> name after some moor
21:57:23 <supermop> some oter civil war battle?
21:58:46 <andythenorth> controversial :)
22:01:36 <supermop> roundhead sounds train-y
22:02:04 <supermop> weren't there a cromwell loco irl?
22:02:27 <supermop> whats the name of the keep in York?
22:02:51 <supermop> idk just call it doncaster
22:02:59 <supermop> that's plenty train-y
22:13:42 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> did you mean ‘this is why we got stuck and NRT isn’t in trunk’ or so? <- yeah, my english sometimes is too much italian
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22:30:24 <Arveen> that one sound very nice
22:33:37 <peter1138> Sounds good until the "vocal" comes on.
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22:41:32 <andythenorth> turn it up louder
22:43:46 <Wolf01> BTW, I'm totally fine if they want to merge the current NRT in their patchpacks, but I warn them that they will end up with some incompatible thing in future
22:44:07 <andythenorth> and newgrfs that need updated
22:45:05 <Wolf01> Even the current unspooled etc probably will be useless in future with BGT
22:58:11 <Wolf01> Which is NotRoadTypesButGroundTypes
22:59:12 <Wolf01> So, in future you will have just to change the ground for the pavement of the tramway, not define 6 tramways with the same specs
22:59:28 <supermop> i still dont get what the point of a ground type is, and what it has to do with roads
23:02:38 <supermop> hmm i am too bored i think i should go home
23:03:00 <Wolf01> So you can go home when you get bored?
23:06:03 <supermop> Wolf01: i will probably be bored there too
23:06:24 <supermop> but it is 17:00 on friday and no one else is in the office
23:09:48 <supermop> still think towns should build more than just road
23:10:05 <Wolf01> That's a different problem
23:10:45 <supermop> otherwise ROAD must be something that makes sense from year 0
23:10:59 <supermop> but that might look stupid in year 3000
23:13:46 <Wolf01> The problem might be the auto-upgrade of the roads, towns should build dirt/cobble roads, then with the ages they should upgrade to asphalt/concrete
23:16:20 <andythenorth> switch graphics by date :P
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23:17:03 <Wolf01> 1. MakeWholeMapDirty()
23:17:29 <Wolf01> 2. You should switch the roadtype, because you might want different road properties
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