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00:07:05  <_dp_> hm, how do I enable 90 degree turns? just disabling "forbid" option in settings doesn't seem to work %

00:09:02  <_dp_> ah, apparently I tried to do wrong 90 turn)

00:09:13  <_dp_> never played with that crap on :p

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00:14:00  <_dp_> why do debug vehicles not work with urks?

00:14:10  <_dp_> there are debug rvs but no trains

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00:20:42  <_dp_> curve speeds are horribly broken for non power of 2 length engines

00:21:03  <_dp_> coz number of wagons on curve constantly changes :p

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00:31:43  <Eddi|zuHause> just another reason to completely rip out that code and replace it with something sane

00:32:10  <Eddi|zuHause> ... for various optimism levels of "sane"

00:32:49  <_dp_> done :P

00:32:49  <_dp_> https://github.com/ldpl/OpenTTD/commit/7b32c6ebcecde523bfe892aea2860cd3c9d8f5e7

00:32:56  <_dp_> slightly more sane xD

00:33:16  <_dp_> still fails on wagons of weird length tho

00:33:34  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that does

00:33:56  <_dp_> but that issue comes from calculating limit by train instead of track

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00:34:33  <_dp_> does two things I stated earlier. 1) takes min curve instead of avg 2) takes wagon length instead of count

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00:35:59  <_dp_> so except for non power of 2 wagons solves all other speed limit issues as far as I can tell

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00:38:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you can pretty safely switch it to track reservation instead of wagons. trains ("usually") reserve the track under themselves, even without path signals present

00:38:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you may sporadically catch the reservation from another train, though

00:38:49  <_dp_> usually? xD

00:39:28  <_dp_> wait, but with path signals reservation is larger than train, right?

00:39:42  <_dp_> that doesn't really work well for speed limits

00:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's an improvement

00:41:25  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no reason why the speed limit should depend on train length

00:41:28  <_dp_> hm, what I could probably do is some math magic to get track length even with weirdly sized wagons

00:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> trains should have their length cached in the front engine

00:42:42  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, with path signals reservation can be arbitrarily big, makes no sense whatsoever to calculate speed limit from it

00:43:08  <Eddi|zuHause> you can limit the path traversal

00:43:55  <_dp_> I think just some rounding will do the trick

00:43:55  <Eddi|zuHause> go back (length of train) tiles, and go forward (length of braking distance) tiles

00:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> stop whenever that limit is reached, or the reservation ends

00:46:58  <Eddi|zuHause> second step would be to add a useful formula for determining the braking distance

00:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> third step: extend the reservation when it's shorter than the braking distance, in the movement code

00:48:20  <_dp_> breaking distance is way much harder of a task than fixing curve speed limits

00:48:27  <_dp_> I'm not doing it for sure :p

00:48:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't expect you to

00:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> just hard code it as 0 or 1 tile or something

00:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> what i meant to say was: this code should be able to handle a braking distance, should it be added in the future

00:52:07  <_dp_> well, what I did is as able to handle breaking distance as current openttd :p

00:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not really the goal :p

00:53:31  <_dp_> i don't rly believe in breaking distance ever coming to openttd

00:54:04  <_dp_> can't even imagine how to calculate it with realistic acceleration

00:54:28  <_dp_> it's non-trivial even with simple v=at stuff

00:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> s=a/2*t^2... really not that difficult :p

00:56:00  <_dp_> exept that you don't have t :p

00:56:16  <_dp_> also acceleration is doable

00:56:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you get t from v=a*t

00:56:34  <_dp_> but what happens for example when train hits speed limit?

00:57:56  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the idea is to use the braking distance as a lookahead, to notice speed limits before you reach the limiting spot

00:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause> then you can pass the limit to the acceleration code, and it will slowly lower speed towards the limit

00:58:22  <_dp_> I think it just moves with 2a on acceleration so you don't need s and t (assuming a of breaking = a of acceleration)

00:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause> without just clamping the speed to the limit

00:58:40  <Eddi|zuHause> like it does currently

00:59:51  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, anyhow breaking distance should go somewhere past speed limit, stay there for some time as train decelerates and then continue on

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01:01:11  <_dp_> also it's unclear how breaking distance will sync with train on integer coords without loosing precision

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01:01:50  <Eddi|zuHause> ... you broke it

01:02:00  <_dp_> :p

01:02:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you mean with your braking distance comment

01:03:55  <_dp_> which one? :)

01:06:40  <Wolf01> Ok, I fixed and broke my app infinite times today, I could netflix and sleep now

01:07:01  <_dp_> in other words you need to somehow calculate when to start decelerating to hit speed limit point with required speed

01:11:16  <Wolf01> You are trying to make trains don't stop from full speed at every red signal because the train ahead is slower?

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01:12:19  <_dp_> oh, and anyway calculating speed limit for train instead of track is quite important gameplay thing already

01:12:26  <_dp_> like all coop stuff depends on it

01:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause> pppppppffffftttt :p

01:12:59  <_dp_> Wolf01, yeah, Eddi wants realistic deceleration xD

01:13:51  <Wolf01> TF has is now and I found it really good, trains don't stop anymore and almost match the speed of the train ahead

01:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, breaking coop habits is the best reason ever for making a patch :p

01:14:38  <Wolf01> :D

01:15:04  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, "<_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, anyhow breaking distance should go somewhere past speed limit, stay there for some time as train decelerates and then continue on" <-- this was the last line i got before the disconnect

01:15:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and that one i don't understand

01:15:19  <_dp_> <_dp_> in other words you need to somehow calculate when to start decelerating to hit speed limit point with required speed

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01:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i wouldn't really worry about that... just decelerate as soon as you notice the speed limit ahead

01:16:47  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, that's kind of silly to go at lower speed than allowed

01:17:00  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, besides, I think I already know the answer to that

01:17:37  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: in any case, i think that's a feature for later steps of this process

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01:17:45  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, braking point pauses at point where would train stop going from speed limiting point at speed of that limit

01:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: if you are checking reservation ahead of the train, for each step you can calculate the speed it would reach when starting to brake immediately. just check whether that speed is below the speed limit of that point

01:19:40  <_dp_> though it all depends on implementation. when I though about braking points I planned on making them the logical "head" for train and move the real pieces accordingly

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01:21:04  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, that means on every train movement you're going to check whole reservation

01:21:56  <Eddi|zuHause> every train movement, or maybe every tile change

01:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but that should be a fairly cheap operation

01:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> just loop over the already existing reservation

01:23:26  <_dp_> I kind of though train movement is time-critical already

01:23:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a dangerous assumption without doing actual profiling

01:24:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but usually pathfinder is the worst offender, and you're not really doing that

01:24:30  <_dp_> well, anyway, you don't need to check reservation. Having stored something like distance before starting braking and dinstance to end braking should be enough

01:25:03  <Eddi|zuHause> caching values is a step further

01:25:57  <_dp_> yeah, but it's always nice to know beforehand that it's possible to cache something there ;)

01:28:16  <Eddi|zuHause> what you probably would need to cache is the "braking curve", i.e. "train has current speed of 100, within 1 tile it can brake to 95, within 2 tiles to 85, within 3 tiles to 70, within 4 tiles to 45, within 5 tiles to 15, within 6 tiles to 0"

01:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause> at least that could work while the train is cruising at constant speed

01:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> then, at every tile change you can loop the reservation, and if you encounter a speed limit of 80 is within 2 and 3 tiles, you start braking

01:32:43  <Eddi|zuHause> if the speed limit is more than 3 tiles away, you don't care

01:32:57  <_dp_> braking curve seems pointless to me. all you need to know is when to hit brakes and when to release and that can be calculated based on distances and speeds

01:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need to know when to release, because you release when you reach the speed limit

01:33:55  <Eddi|zuHause> you already know what the limit is

01:33:56  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, kind of true except mb sometimes you don't

01:34:05  <_dp_> as there is another limit

01:34:36  <Eddi|zuHause> what?

01:35:21  <_dp_> there may be too speed limits ahead of the train and you may need to start braking to second one earlier than to the first (or at the same time)

01:35:42  <_dp_> so when you reach first limit you still need to hold brakes

01:35:57  <_dp_> *two

01:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> how is that a problem? you loop over the whole braking distance, and brake for the lowest speed limit that didn't meet the "ignore" criterium above

01:36:47  <_dp_> it's not much of a problem, just you don't always "release when you reach the speed limit"

01:37:14  <_dp_> you may do it as release, look ahead and immediately brake again though

01:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> each speed limit that is not the lowest will automatically be ignored as well

01:37:28  <Eddi|zuHause> there is only one speed limit that you brake for at any given moment

01:37:57  <_dp_> well, yeah, and that what I meant by knowing when to release brakes :p

01:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> say you have the braking curve above, and there's a speed limit of 80 3 tiles away, you set that as active speed limit. then there's a speed limit of 30 6 tiles away, you ignore that

01:39:07  <_dp_> depends on braking speed, if it's too slow I can't ignore it

01:39:17  <_dp_> or I wouldn't be able to stop from 80 to 30 in 3 tiles

01:39:27  <_dp_> *slow down

01:39:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but you already know the braking speed, that's what you calculated the braking curve from

01:40:55  <_dp_> idk with braking curve mb, it's quite excessive

01:41:03  <_dp_> I was talking of not having braking curev

01:41:51  <Eddi|zuHause> even if you don't calculate the braking curve, it still exists

01:43:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you still get to the same conclusions on when to brake for a speed limit, even if you don't explicitly calculate the curve

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01:50:14  <_dp_> hm, I changed my mind, calculating when to brake is a bad idea

01:50:21  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: what i mean is, if you encounter a speedlimit of X, Y tiles ahead, you calculate whether the train can still meet the speed limit if it started to brake Y-1 tiles away, if not, you set X as the current speed limit and start braking now. if you find a new lower speed limit later, you override the speed limit

01:51:00  <_dp_> in openttd reality what you need to know is for each tick whether you're braking at it or not

01:51:34  <Eddi|zuHause> checking at tile borders should be enough, no need to do it every tick really

01:52:25  <Eddi|zuHause> might need special calculations for half tiles

01:52:58  <_dp_> I think it can move more than one tile per tick actually

01:54:11  <Eddi|zuHause> but it would induce a tile switchover check twice in that case

01:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there is certainly a maximum speed

01:55:48  <Eddi|zuHause> there are two train movement steps per tick, and it almost certainly cannot move more than one tile per movement step

01:57:04  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if you overshoot, there's always the "emergency brake" mode

01:57:15  <_dp_> xD

01:58:28  <_dp_> there is somewhat realistic deceleration currently btw

01:58:49  <_dp_> but it only works within one tile and has some bugs :)

01:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, hence the need for a braking distance

01:59:57  <Eddi|zuHause> (also separate braking power property for vehicles)

02:00:13  <_dp_> too much realism :p

02:00:26  <Eddi|zuHause> no such thing :p

02:01:54  <_dp_> I kinda like instabreaks, sometimes it's the only way to stop trains from crashing)

02:02:17  <_dp_> emergency rail removal :)

02:04:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the algorithm above doesn't really remove that

02:04:29  <Eddi|zuHause> only disallowing removing rails with reservation would change that

02:04:38  <_dp_> well, yeah, but you said something about "train in the way" earlier :p

02:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes

02:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's completely separate

02:05:25  <Eddi|zuHause> could allow that as a cheat, or something

02:06:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the convert rail tool also would need a check for whether the new speed limit could be met

02:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> which may be too much work

02:06:45  <Eddi|zuHause> so better to just scratch the whole idea :p

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02:11:41  <_dp_> just slowing down asap in case of converting seams reasonable enough

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02:12:00  <_dp_> otherwise you can't even convert underneath a moving traing which is going to be super annoying

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02:14:41  <_dp_> oh, now I remembered why it was so hard to calculate braking when I though about it

02:14:59  <_dp_> it was supposed to be an event-based system without any ticks

02:15:13  <_dp_> so need to calculate exact times for everything

02:17:40  <_dp_> amazing, I have two trains on one track and they still haven't crashed.

02:17:48  <_dp_> how do people even crash them xD

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02:18:46  <_dp_> have an idea for #coop, nsnw - no signal network xD

02:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> back in the days, brianetta used to run networks like that

02:19:58  <Eddi|zuHause> timed so the trains would reach the sidings at the correct time

02:20:17  <_dp_> ah, timed

02:20:38  <_dp_> mine is osnw then I guess, one (path) signal network)

02:20:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it might not be possible anymore, because trains check paths at station exit

02:21:02  <_dp_> nothing's timed but reservations do the trick

02:22:22  <Eddi|zuHause> well, reservations are meant to be crash-safe (as long as the player doesn't screw with the network)

02:23:42  <_dp_> they are kind of dull though since they reserve complete path and just stop train if they cant

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02:24:13  <_dp_> wonder if there is a way to pack several trains going same way on one track with reservations

02:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not an automatic moving-block signalling system :p

02:24:51  <_dp_> huh? sound like minecraft

02:25:27  <Eddi|zuHause> not that kind of block :p

02:26:01  <_dp_> xD

02:26:14  <Eddi|zuHause> a signal block is the space between two signals, which only one train may occupy

02:26:49  <_dp_> yeah, I figured already once I got what block are you talking about)

02:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause> a "moving block" is a modern system where a virtual signal moves ahead of the train (braking distance away)

02:27:33  <_dp_> is that some real signaling system?

02:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause> moving block systems allow very fast speeds (because the driver doesn't need to see the signal) and very tight packing of trains

02:28:33  <Eddi|zuHause> ETCS level 2 might be moving block

02:28:46  <_dp_> why does it even need a driver :p

02:29:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that's level 3 :p

02:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, you need these computerized signals for speeds > 160km/h

02:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so high speed tracks are generally equipped with such a system

02:30:39  <Eddi|zuHause> also, some metro systems use this for the tight packing ability

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02:33:01  <_dp_> japan certainly uses some other tight packing system xD

02:33:21  <Eddi|zuHause> not that kind of packing :p

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02:36:53  <Wolf01> 'night

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02:47:59  <_dp_> what's the maximum length of a train part, 8/8?

02:48:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes

02:50:17  <_dp_> iron horse seems to have longer wagons

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02:50:28  <Eddi|zuHause> those are articulated vehicles

02:50:35  <_dp_> ah

02:51:34  <Eddi|zuHause> for extra fun, look at CETS

02:53:21  <_dp_> is it on bananas?

02:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's not released (or finished, for that matter), but you find it on devzone

02:55:57  <_dp_> all I found is this https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2456/a_test_trailer.png

02:56:27  <_dp_> ah, should've checked repository, not files)

02:56:34  <_dp_> totally not used to devzone

02:58:07  <_dp_> nah, I give up, too much code :p

02:58:20  <Eddi|zuHause> https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/cets/25/

03:03:57  <_dp_> omg

03:04:25  <_dp_> how does that even

03:04:29  <_dp_> what

03:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i know, must have been a total crazyperson who came up with that :p

03:04:59  <_dp_> that's some dark sorcery you have there :p

03:06:28  <_dp_> well, whatever it appears to be, as long as for a game everything is < 8/8 it should be fine)

03:06:30  <_dp_> <=

03:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, 8 is max length. longer vehicles can only be articulated

03:09:36  <Eddi|zuHause> like, my wagons of length 10 are 3+4+3

03:13:10  <_dp_> just replacing / with rounddivsu seems to have fixed issues with weird wagon lengths

03:20:05  <_dp_> probably not all of them but definitely some

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12:14:29  <__ln__> o/

12:15:06  <Wolf01> o/

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12:18:42  <crem> \o

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12:31:59  <Wolf01> I think that I really need to redo the synchronization part of my app...

12:36:25  <__ln__> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvim4rsNHkQ

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13:08:10  <SiRev> Hi, anywone around?

13:36:00  <Wolf01> Maybe

14:12:29  <Eddi|zuHause> unlikely

14:16:19  <Wolf01> Did you reach a good point with the discussion of this night?

14:17:47  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing you haven't seen

14:18:47  <Wolf01> I didn't even follow it, and I don't think I want to read the log because it's a wall of text I might not understand :P

14:20:45  * andythenorth drawing trains

14:20:53  <andythenorth> still got length problems eh

14:21:21  <Wolf01> I'm cursing all the divinities I know because I found some problems with my app

14:27:12  <andythenorth> I am getting tied in knots trying to make a viable 1 tile pax train

14:27:22  <andythenorth> 6/8 engine, 4/8 mail car, 6/8 coach

14:27:43  <andythenorth> is that even a valid goal?

14:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not

14:28:16  <Eddi|zuHause> trains that short should be railcars

14:28:46  <andythenorth> it tends to spam the buy menu with mail and pax wagons that are too short for other uses

14:29:03  <andythenorth> it can be done neatly with an articulated vehicle

14:29:08  <andythenorth> BUT AUTOREPLACE :|

14:29:10  <andythenorth> so no

14:30:24  <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6207

14:30:44  <andythenorth> me nor frosch neither have any idea if that should even be supported

14:32:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it should be supported, but the current autoreplace failure is not fixable in the existing framework

14:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so you need consist replace

14:37:09  <andythenorth> hmm

14:37:10  <andythenorth> shame

14:37:24  <andythenorth> 6/8 engine + 10/8 mixed coach (mail and pax)

14:37:26  <andythenorth> works well

14:38:06  <Wolf01> Hahe hate hate anger hate hate anger depression :(

14:39:15  <andythenorth> coffee, Lego

14:40:33  <Wolf01> I'll have a chocolate cookie

14:40:48  <andythenorth> how long IRL is 30 years of OpenTTD play?

14:40:57  <andythenorth> assuming no ffwd

14:41:55  <Eddi|zuHause> 1 year is somewhere between 12 and 15 minutes

14:42:19  <Wolf01> @calc 2.2 * 30 * 365

14:42:19  <DorpsGek> Wolf01: 24090

14:42:28  <andythenorth> eh 6 hours then

14:43:04  <__ln__> andythenorth: so that's where the time mysteriously disappeared and you weren't abducted by aliens after all?

14:43:12  <andythenorth> isn’t it

14:43:37  * andythenorth lost more time to obsessing about wagon lengths :P

15:01:02  <andythenorth> 15 pax and mail coaches

15:01:06  <andythenorth> seems a lot per game

15:23:04  <Wolf01> Why do people write html with unquoted attributes?

15:23:42  <Wolf01> And why browsers allow them to continue with this stupid behaviour?

15:24:19  <peter1138> Ew

15:24:25  <peter1138> Apparently XHTML was too hard, so they dropped it.

15:25:19  <Wolf01> The problem is that now I can't even load some pages because it seem there isn't a way to tell the XmlReader to be kind and load those anyway

15:27:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe you should collect some actual user experiences

15:29:10  <peter1138> Well, you shouldn't be loading HTML as XML any more.

15:29:29  <Wolf01> I need to parse it

15:29:54  <peter1138> But it's not XML.

15:30:24  <Wolf01> Eh, I don't have a HtmlReader which allows to manipulate the DOM

15:30:59  <peter1138> https://github.com/MindTouch/SGMLReader

15:31:08  <peter1138> Eh, it's in .Net land though.

15:34:36  <Wolf01> Wow, the parser is long

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15:43:13  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: design me a survey? o_O

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15:53:14  <Wolf01> Is there an online tool which supports c# regex?

15:55:01  <crem> Are C# special?

15:55:05  <Wolf01> Yes

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16:41:19  <Wolf01> Anybody good with regex could help me finding only \w+=\w+ inside < >?

16:42:32  <crem> I would first find <.*?>, then search *=* inside

16:42:57  <Wolf01> Yes

16:43:17  <Wolf01> I'll do it with loops

16:43:24  <crem> But if you want...  <[^<>]*(\w+=\w+)[^<>]*>

16:43:41  <crem> Will only find one \w+=\w+ per <> though.

16:44:05  <blocage> <(\w+=\w+\s+)+> ?

16:44:14  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow i feel reminded of the kirby-dance

16:45:00  <crem> blocage: that will find  a=b in this example <c> a=b <d>

16:45:13  <blocage> <(\w+=\w+[^>A-Za-z0-9])+> ?

16:45:26  <Wolf01> None of the 2, crem's one returns everything into < > if there's a \w=\w match, blocage's one it's what I've already tried and doesn't return anything

16:45:35  <blocage> it's not what I understood

16:46:07  <blocage> <(\w+=\w+[^>A-Za-z0-9]+)+> ?

16:46:39  <Wolf01> I have <tag attribute=value another="good value">stuff which may contain x=y</tag> and I need to get only the "attribute=value"

16:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: you should make a proper parser that handles the <tag X>Y</tag> part, and then do your regex only in X

16:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause> lex/yacc or something

16:51:51  <blocage> look like XML, why do not use one of existing library ?

16:52:20  <Wolf01> Because it's malformed code and the CmlReader isn't able to load it

16:52:25  <Wolf01> *XmlReader

16:53:07  <blocage> in which way it is illformed ?

16:55:33  <Wolf01> In any possible way?

16:56:16  <blocage> xml reader can report the issue, some low level xml parseur may help, like sax parser

16:57:00  <blocage> Wolf01, you should have a valid syntax to parse a file, if not you are in trouble

16:57:06  <Wolf01> :)

16:58:16  <blocage> so, even if it's not a valid xml, it should have a valid syntax, so in which way your syntax differ from xml syntax :)

16:59:07  <blocage> for example: atribute=value is invalid in XML, you should have atrribute="value"

16:59:31  <Wolf01> Thank you, it's really my problem, now I would like to solve that

17:02:47  <blocage> Wolf01, what you want to achieve at hight level ?

17:03:06  <Wolf01> Load the XML to manipulate the DOM

17:03:08  <blocage> can you give some context :D

17:03:39  <blocage> And the XML is ill-formed ?

17:03:49  <Wolf01> Yes, almost always

17:05:47  <blocage> http://lxml.de/elementsoup.html

17:06:07  <Wolf01> I need to do it programmatically

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17:06:43  <blocage> Wolf01, you should define wihich ill-formed XML you want parse

17:06:53  <blocage> not all issue are recoverable

17:07:30  <blocage> and if you have a syntax, you may go for lex/yacc flex/bison

17:08:08  <blocage> making a lagage parser is full of pitfall

17:09:37  <blocage> lex and flex are lexer, they cut your file in keywords

17:10:44  <blocage> yacc and bison are actual parser that define the structure of keywords

17:10:45  <Wolf01> I think I'll just look to fix the worst errors, I don't want to load 500MB of libraries just to parse random strings for html

17:11:07  <blocage> You want fix an existing paser ?

17:11:23  <Wolf01> My app is already big enough without third party stuff

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17:12:51  <blocage> which regex langage do you use ?

17:13:03  <Wolf01> I'm doing it in c#

17:13:52  <Wolf01> The regex syntax is the same of many others, the implementation differs

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17:16:01  <blocage> Wolf01, which kind of input string do you want match ?

17:16:23  <Wolf01> RSS feeds

17:16:52  <Wolf01> Also atom ones

17:16:59  <blocage> mm I mean at low level within the code

17:17:08  <Wolf01> But that's another problem

17:17:27  <blocage> it's look like you already splited the document

17:17:53  <Wolf01> I get an array of feeds

17:19:37  <blocage> so you try to match <\w+\s+(\w+=\w+\s+|\w+="[^"]+\"\s+)+> with which string ?

17:19:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: really, i'd either go looking for a more forgiving XML/HTML Parser, or go the lex/yacc path

17:20:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: pure regex is likely the wrong approach here

17:20:27  <Wolf01> I'm doing it with loops

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17:20:30  <blocage> +1 to Eddi|zuHause

17:22:04  <LordAro> Wolf01: https://stackoverflow.com/q/1732348/995325

17:23:41  <Wolf01> So, I should just give up?

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17:24:34  <supermop> man now i want a hiroden model

17:24:39  <LordAro> Wolf01: with regex? yes

17:42:43  <Wolf01> I should give up with the XmlReader

17:43:02  <Wolf01> It's impossible to give it a valid xml

17:43:17  <Wolf01> Even after fixing everything it still has something to blame

17:43:44  <Wolf01> Now it bitches about feedburner links having ":" in the middle of the href

17:44:32  <Eddi|zuHause> replace them with %XX?

17:44:37  <Wolf01> And it wants a space there...

17:44:48  <Wolf01> System.Xml.XmlException: 'V9AoX2Ar5FE' is an unexpected token. Expecting white space. Line 2, position 60.

17:47:42  <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably ignore the followup-exceptions, when the fix is as trivial as that

17:48:58  <Alkel_U3> Wolf01: can you give an example of the malformed stuff you're trying to parse?

17:49:38  <Wolf01> Just get the html from a random feed of slashdot

17:51:45  <Alkel_U3> can you point to an url, please?

17:52:15  <Wolf01> http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdotMain

17:52:34  <Alkel_U3> thanks

17:53:03  <Wolf01> But you might wget it, as the browser version is tampered

17:55:37  <Wolf01> Lol, I found one <a> tag with 2 hrefs...

17:55:47  <Wolf01> Clearly XmlReader doesn't like that

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18:43:30  <supermop> i wonder why there is such a paucity of model trams

18:46:06  <Wolf01> There are the kato ones, I've seen a nice diorama and I really liked it

18:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i think our local tram company sells a model tram

18:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i can't find it anymore

18:57:24  <Wolf01> Ok, I trashed all the XmlReader stuff and went back to the old plain "try to get stuff from a string and if you don't find it just return an empty string"

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19:05:53  <Wolf01> Quak

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19:09:51  <frosch123> moo

19:11:54  <debdog> This #channel does not have Super Cow Powers.

19:13:03  <frosch123> i used gentoo from 2005 to 2010

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19:40:39  <peter1138> And that was just completing the initial install and compilation.

19:46:06  <frosch123> i never complained about ottd compile times :)

19:46:25  <frosch123> and i compiled firefox only once, then i knew why even gentoo has a binary package for that

19:48:05  <peter1138> Before we went to C++, it was super quick to compile.

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19:59:07  <supermop> Wolf01: the kato ones seem really generic

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20:08:49  <andythenorth> o/

20:09:29  <frosch123> hoi

20:10:36  <supermop> yo andy

20:10:36  <andythenorth> supermop: which train shall I include in Iron Horse (Pony)

20:10:47  <supermop> of britishy ones?

20:11:01  <andythenorth> roughly

20:14:19  <supermop> pacers?

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20:20:06  <supermop> a mk1 emu with loads of doors down the side?

20:22:27  <andythenorth> nice suggestions :)

20:22:41  <andythenorth> I need a diesel, about 1960, freight, around 1500HP

20:22:45  <andythenorth> preferably fake

20:25:03  <andythenorth> and maybe named after a distinctively British animal :P

20:25:24  <frosch123> fox?

20:25:59  <supermop> badger

20:26:06  <supermop> stoat

20:26:08  <frosch123> thatcher?

20:26:16  <supermop> stoat sounds freight-y

20:26:20  <andythenorth> stoat is good

20:26:28  <andythenorth> I considered fox and badger also

20:26:28  <supermop> good and ugly

20:26:43  <andythenorth> because this is IH v2, I need to rename most of the engines I think

20:27:12  <supermop> hart?

20:27:27  <supermop> hart not freight-y sounding

20:27:50  <frosch123> is there room for a fast blue engine to be named hedgehog?

20:28:24  <supermop> some western hydraulic?

20:28:57  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8606/horse_pony_v2.png

20:29:13  <andythenorth> supermop: Wizzo is a shortened class 52

20:29:19  <andythenorth> or a flattened class 42

20:29:38  <supermop> wizzo looks good

20:29:45  <supermop> v british looking

20:29:48  <andythenorth> Little Bear needs renamed

20:30:02  <supermop> maybe that should be the stoat

20:30:05  <andythenorth> maybe yes

20:30:14  <andythenorth> Shredder is the 1500hp freight engine

20:30:18  <andythenorth> could keep shredder

20:30:22  <andythenorth> or go for Badger

20:30:50  <andythenorth> it’s kind of the default freight choice

20:31:03  <andythenorth> good for 3-5 tiles

20:31:12  <supermop> hmm

20:31:21  <supermop> skylon

20:31:26  <supermop> v british

20:31:42  <supermop> but too 50s

20:31:57  <supermop> saltaire

20:33:10  <andythenorth> in RL, there were Kestrel and Lion

20:33:13  <supermop> are the warning panels yellow or 2cc?

20:34:20  <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_53

20:34:23  <andythenorth> 2CC

20:34:27  <supermop> boo

20:34:33  <andythenorth> boo? o_O

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20:35:40  <supermop> yellow is mandatory to achieve BR-ness

20:35:59  <supermop> how about a name that evokes the twin engine part?

20:36:11  <supermop> swan?

20:36:19  <supermop> swans go about in couples

20:36:34  <supermop> not very freight-y

20:36:35  <andythenorth> swan probably good for an electric

20:36:44  <andythenorth> Avocet was class 89

20:36:57  <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_89

20:37:01  <supermop> original vehicles could have used an avocet

20:37:05  <supermop> i always thought

20:37:11  <andythenorth> ha class 89 also called Badger :P

20:37:15  <supermop> looked slick in the gner livery

20:37:41  <supermop> after the sh 40 there is a dire lack of electric locomotives

20:38:01  <andythenorth> fortunately…newgrf ;)

20:38:15  <supermop> the grf that added a sh 50 and sh 60 is probably the most concise and well reasoned newgrf out there

20:38:35  <andythenorth> I could just go Tractor and do a class 37

20:38:40  <andythenorth> or I could do something Irish

20:39:15  <supermop> also bothers me: original vehicles, both electrics have large logo, all diesels have yellow fronts only

20:39:23  <andythenorth> noticed that yesterday

20:39:40  <andythenorth> had to look how the Roarer sprite compared to SH40 ;)

20:39:41  <supermop> sh 30 should have had yellow front and floss 47 should have had large logo

20:40:00  <supermop> as is 30 and 40 are basically the same

20:40:05  <andythenorth> if I do the 37,it has bonnets, which is distinctive

20:40:09  <andythenorth> not just another box

20:40:15  <supermop> yes,

20:40:26  <supermop> but those boxes are very british boxes

20:40:37  <supermop> no deltic?

20:41:06  <andythenorth> nah

20:41:13  <supermop> too boss?

20:41:17  <andythenorth> as Pikka found, it’s OP

20:41:22  <supermop> heh

20:41:32  <supermop> 92?

20:41:45  <supermop> oh man

20:42:09  <supermop> railfreight grey where 1 and 2 cc are only on the little logo badge?

20:42:34  <andythenorth> :P

20:42:55  <andythenorth> so a bodged 37, call it Tractor, Growler, or Syphon?

20:42:58  <supermop> yes i do own the BR graphic standards manual, how did you know

20:43:01  <andythenorth> or an animal name?

20:43:17  <supermop> syphon? like a tube?

20:43:23  <andythenorth> apparently

20:43:26  <andythenorth> https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090906061026AAu6Yyd

20:44:03  <supermop> syphon g sounds boss

20:44:33  <supermop> dog name?

20:44:40  <andythenorth> Bulldog?

20:47:25  <andythenorth> hmm something fake for the 1500hp freight engine would be best

20:47:28  <supermop> too british

20:47:32  <andythenorth> what’s a mini-peak?

20:47:37  <supermop> hill?

20:47:45  <supermop> knoll?

20:47:53  <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_45

20:47:57  <andythenorth> but co-co

20:48:03  <andythenorth> foothill? :P

20:48:03  <supermop> coconut

20:48:09  <supermop> berm

20:48:16  <supermop> embankment

20:48:50  <supermop> morraine

20:49:00  <andythenorth> mound

20:49:01  <andythenorth> lump

20:49:14  <andythenorth> summit

20:50:27  <supermop> lump is particularly charming

20:50:45  <supermop> heap

20:51:06  <andythenorth> or I can keep Shredder which is class 33 http://www.semgonline.com/diesel/class33_dat.html

20:51:10  <andythenorth> and fake the length

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20:59:44  <supermop> i want some little hiroshima trams running about

21:00:00  <supermop> or a peach colored okayama tram

21:01:04  <supermop> incredibly there are no english language wikipedia pages for any of the hiroden rolling stock

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21:08:12  <frosch123> isn't the hiroshima tram set the oldest tram set of all?

21:16:49  <supermop> hmm?

21:17:08  <supermop> i want little ones driving around my apartment

21:17:45  <frosch123> oh, didn't notice that the subject changed to hardware

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21:18:14  <andythenorth> supermop: for mini-peak: crag, bluff, tor, tump, pike?

21:18:45  <supermop> crag

21:19:07  <supermop> used to climb about on crags in yorkshire when i lived there

21:20:11  <supermop> https://www.instagram.com/p/BYpGYgllvOL/?taken-by=metabolist

21:20:59  <andythenorth> such tram

21:21:15  <andythenorth> maybe I should decide what to draw, then name it :P

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21:24:22  <supermop> https://www.instagram.com/p/BYjx5nKlWQB/?taken-by=metabolist

21:28:08  <andythenorth> I like the micro car

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21:34:42  <supermop> in japan it is just 'car'

21:37:55  <andythenorth> supermop: what have I drawn? :(

21:37:56  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8607/shredder_eh.png

21:38:05  <andythenorth> it’s all wrong

21:38:15  <supermop> hmmm

21:38:21  <supermop> its something

21:40:00  <frosch123> the roof could be from the xkcd phone 1874

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21:49:23  <andythenorth> not sure what it’s supposed to be :)

21:49:58  <frosch123> the roof has 1-2 pixels too much at the lower border

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21:59:31  <Eddi|zuHause> thing i found odd with the xkcd phone: should't the camera be at 1/3 of the height, because that's were the eyes should be (if properlx framed)?

21:59:46  <Eddi|zuHause> s/x/y/

22:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> dangit, s/x /y /

22:01:41  <frosch123> no, the camera must be in the spot where you are looking at

22:02:00  <frosch123> it's not necessary to have the phone in parallel to the face

22:02:04  <frosch123> it's a camera, no scanner

22:02:41  <frosch123> though, wasn't there a scanner on the back?

22:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the camera position is meant to have your face make eye contact with the other person

22:03:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so it should be where the other person's eyes are on the screen

22:04:08  <frosch123> oh, so it depend on the other person framing their picture correctly

22:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause> yes

22:04:16  <frosch123> shoudn't the camera move then?

22:04:32  <frosch123> i.e. automatic camera positioning

22:04:42  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe next year :p

22:06:42  <frosch123> they should have replaced the home button with a travel button

22:06:49  <frosch123> it's a mobile device after all

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22:08:43  <frosch123> it probably should have wheels

22:08:48  <frosch123> or legs

22:11:54  <andythenorth> better http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8608/shredder_deux.png

22:12:40  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: didn't they get into the autonomous car business? that's basically an iphone with wheels then

22:13:11  <andythenorth> xkcd car

22:14:22  <frosch123> the roof has a cooler?

22:15:41  <frosch123> i guess i cannot see the roof of engines usually, but i guess rain cooling also works?

22:16:17  <frosch123> anyway, i like the wheels

22:16:26  <frosch123> and the tank between them

22:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: coolers on the roof are quite common

22:28:10  <andythenorth> o_O https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75637&start=120

22:36:01  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: if both users have cameras in center of screen, wont both users eyes be at center?

22:48:25  <Wolf01> andythenorth: reply "we are remaking it from scratch"

22:49:34  <Wolf01> "also we are removing ships"

22:49:36  <supermop> http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10209283

22:49:41  <supermop> only luck so far

22:49:57  <supermop> sold out but evidence that a product was made at some point

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22:58:01  <andythenorth> supermop: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-GAUGE-KATO-14-070-Hannover-Tram-Hiroshima-Electric-Railway-/253114860978?epid=649672554&hash=item3aeed245b2:g:ankAAOSw2-BZdjLe

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22:58:50  <supermop> those don't run in hiroshima anymore  as far as i know

22:59:12  <supermop> saw no pointy european style trams there

22:59:25  <supermop> also they still have trammies there

22:59:27  <andythenorth> ebay not producing much else :)

23:00:09  <supermop> also also, as compared to 2004-5, 2009, and 2013, there are now tones of women driving and conducting trains and trams in japan

23:00:22  <supermop> used to be pretty much a boys club

23:00:42  <supermop> shrinking labour market will open minds

23:01:57  <supermop> i think the answer is i will have to scratch build trams

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23:04:42  <supermop> hmm of course when i search ebay i just get tons of figurines of tramway conductors

23:04:56  <supermop> not sure wife would approve of me buying those instead

23:10:57  <andythenorth> buffet cars: BAD FEATURE?

23:11:33  <supermop> are you addy mk3 cars with different colored stripes along the top?

23:11:40  <andythenorth> dunno

23:11:55  <supermop> my BR graphic standards book has sample menus from spring 1968

23:11:56  <andythenorth> buffet car would give a payment boost

23:12:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: bad feature if you have to build them separately

23:12:25  <supermop> you could have cars as modules

23:12:31  <frosch123> nice if they are created automatically

23:12:42  <andythenorth> that negates the payment boost idea :)

23:12:44  <supermop> buy rake of cars, add buffet and the all become long distance

23:13:03  <supermop> add a metro car and they all get 4 doors and higher decay

23:13:04  <supermop> idk

23:13:06  <andythenorth> hmm

23:13:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: just have local cars and long distance cars

23:13:23  <andythenorth> you would always add the buffet car

23:13:32  <frosch123> isn't that what all sets do?

23:13:35  <andythenorth> so I might as well boost payment in all cases :P

23:13:37  <Eddi|zuHause> haha... "GähnOfThrones"...

23:13:40  <frosch123> or is that a reason to not do it as well?

23:13:48  <supermop> no one buys ticket to sit in the buffet car

23:14:01  <andythenorth> frosch123: I’ve only played sets with one type of coach per generation

23:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> (... because german election campaign is soooo boring)

23:14:17  <andythenorth> I only use Pikka sets tbh

23:14:19  <supermop> should be a car with 0 capacity but payment boost to all other cars in rake?

23:14:38  <andythenorth> I only considered it because I can make it 6/8 long

23:14:42  <supermop> ha

23:14:50  <andythenorth> which happens to make integer length with 10/8 engine

23:15:02  <andythenorth> probably bad

23:15:34  <supermop> as long as tt pasengers are just as happy to take a horse cart or concorde to whereever fare differentiation is sort of hard to think to seriously about

23:16:18  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i thought elections become more interesting again since the forecasts become worse?

23:16:21  <supermop> load speed works out to be the most valuable stat i find

23:16:42  <andythenorth> supermop: I’m doing fast and slow loading coaches

23:16:54  <andythenorth> but with 4 generations, that’s a 8 coaches

23:16:58  <andythenorth> which is a shitload :P

23:17:15  <supermop> as 'uncomfortable+high capacity' and 'comfortable+low capacity' work out to be a wash

23:17:28  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that may be, but we won't know how accurate the forecasts actually are until it happened

23:17:49  <supermop> andythenorth: after doing some 200 something trucks and busses i lost my appetite to split local/long haul

23:17:55  <andythenorth> :P

23:18:03  <andythenorth> still NFI how to make a 1 tile train with a 6/8 engine

23:18:06  <andythenorth> and pax/mail

23:18:36  <supermop> even though the vanilla style buses are clearly closer to a coach than city bus, cant be assed

23:18:42  <andythenorth> I think the answer is 'not'

23:18:51  <andythenorth> unless I do 10/8 articulated pax coaches

23:19:10  <supermop> so instead just boosted capacity and load speed, and now they are both local and long distance

23:19:28  <supermop> andythenorth: 1 tile train is MUs

23:19:37  <supermop> or nothing

23:19:57  <andythenorth> for trains, is ‘fast loading’ vs ‘slow loading’ even a thing?

23:20:05  <supermop> 1 tile station looks stupid, dont bother making a nice looking train to go on a stupid looking station

23:20:08  <andythenorth> if you want high density, use metro

23:20:25  <andythenorth> they’re all 1 tile :P

23:20:25  <supermop> andythenorth: NJT = high capacity + slow loading

23:20:59  <supermop> type is extinct in europe and japan as far as i can tell

23:21:10  <supermop> but most american commuter railroads are like that

23:21:42  <supermop> loco hauled coaches with high density seating (even two floors) but only end doors

23:21:52  <supermop> and traps for low platforms

23:22:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: most intermediate-distance trains have two floors here

23:22:14  <supermop> NJT, Metra, whatever they have in minnesota

23:22:31  <frosch123> possibly the platforms are not long enough for more wagons

23:22:50  <supermop> per meter of train, NJT probably hold as much or more than typical full subway

23:23:00  <frosch123> i guess two-floor cars qualify as high capacity, slow loading

23:23:07  <supermop> frosch123: thats the issue in many suburban railroads here

23:23:36  <frosch123> what is njt?

23:23:42  <andythenorth> I could just keep the combined mail/pax coach for short trains

23:23:43  <frosch123> new jersey transit makes no sense

23:23:48  <andythenorth> but then auto-replace is broken

23:23:56  <supermop> new jersey transit. a shitty railroad. bombardier bi-level, with standees in the vestibule

23:24:31  <supermop> andythenorth: add apocryphal late game combined coaches

23:25:40  <supermop> i use as an example of a type of commuter railroad in the us that is constrained by platform length and frequency of trains per hour, so the consist ends up being very high density per-car

23:25:41  <frosch123> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/DBpbzf_763.5_Remagen.jpg http://www.bahnbilder.de/1200/db-re-5-br-112-718034.jpg <- they kind of exist in two variants

23:25:50  <frosch123> the latter with a real separate engine

23:25:53  <frosch123> the former more mu-ish

23:26:39  <supermop> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NJ_Transit_Rail_Operations#/media/File:New_Jersey_Transit_rail_operations_sampler.jpg

23:26:58  <supermop> those bi-levels do not load fast

23:27:29  <supermop> especially at low platforms

23:28:39  <frosch123> yeah, they only have small doors

23:29:01  <supermop> the seating inside is very dense too

23:29:01  <frosch123> the ones i know and linked have two double doors

23:29:16  <frosch123> so two people can enter/leave in parallel for lower/upper deck

23:29:31  <supermop> so its an example of slow and dense, but not very british

23:29:55  <frosch123> anyway, do they intentionally look like made of tin metal?

23:30:33  <frosch123> to my eyes the njt cars look extremly ugly

23:30:42  <peter1138> Iconic American trains.

23:30:55  <Wolf01> All that steel grey

23:31:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the shortest viable engine-driven train should be 2 tiles... 1 tile is only sane with railcars

23:31:57  <peter1138> https://gentlemenbehold.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/2003-08-25_greyhound_bus.jpg

23:32:02  <supermop> frosch123: to my eyes too

23:32:05  <supermop> http://www.umcycling.com/kenstationstoredcar.jpg

23:32:19  <supermop> these are even weirder as the upper level has no floor

23:32:22  <frosch123> looks like livestock transporter :)

23:33:01  <frosch123> no floor? on the inside?

23:33:12  <supermop> https://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/Railpics/09-07-24_CTA_KENSINGTON/METRA-Electric_Hi-Liner-interrior-gallery.jpg

23:33:33  <Wolf01> <frosch123> looks like livestock transporter :) <- totally

23:33:47  <supermop> Wolf01: it feels like one too to ride in

23:33:51  <frosch123> supermop: wtf? how do you get up there?

23:34:06  <peter1138> Seems wasteful of space.

23:34:08  <supermop> there is tiny like ships ladder/stair at one end

23:34:36  <supermop> the lower floor is not sunk like on a regular bi-level, it is at regular platform height

23:34:49  <supermop> the upper seats are like sitting in the luggage racks

23:35:01  <frosch123> oh right, no low floor

23:35:11  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like an awesome idea

23:35:31  <supermop> as far as i know chicago is the only place these are used

23:35:45  <supermop> don't know who's idea it was

23:35:55  <supermop> they all seem pretty old

23:36:06  <frosch123> someone who thought that old people occupy to many seats

23:36:14  <supermop> the head room up there is maby 56"

23:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause> how much is that in real units?

23:36:41  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: x25.4

23:36:50  <frosch123> or someone who wanted to encourage women wearing trousers

23:36:51  <supermop> and the aisle is about 1 foot

23:37:53  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 56*2.54

23:37:53  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 142.24

23:37:53  <supermop> these trains are without a doubt some of the stupidest i have ever ridden

23:38:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not... high

23:38:51  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i can properly stand in regular german bilevel cars either...

23:38:53  <supermop> and they are somewhat dense in service patterns, but diesel hauled. only one branch is electrified

23:39:02  *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC

23:39:13  <supermop> the electric line uses EMUs built to the same stupid style

23:39:23  <peter1138> At least you can have bi-level carriages.

23:40:12  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should completely trash your railway system and build a new one? :p

23:40:28  <supermop> peter1138: https://camo.derpicdn.net/953eaaa908e6145f3d2a444977b917b6edf1c336?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.semgonline.com%2Fgallery%2Fpics%2Fmt_4dd2.jpg

23:40:33  <peter1138> We trashed it in the 60s...

23:40:42  <peter1138> Didn't get around to replacing it yet though.

23:40:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you failed the build a new one :p

23:41:04  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: its already trashed that's why we have such stupid and ugly trains on our suburban routes

23:41:12  <supermop> and most cities no longer even have those

23:41:13  <peter1138> We're getting some "new" bits eventually but it'll be the same loading gauge.

23:41:39  <peter1138> I guess HS2 will be shitty as well, and that won't stop anywhere useful anyway.

23:42:04  <Eddi|zuHause> where does HS2 go?

23:42:27  <peter1138> London to Birmingham.

23:42:40  <peter1138> At least, the first section.

23:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there is nothing useful inbetween :p

23:44:13  <supermop> look they bought new ones to be just as ugly and stupid as the old:

23:44:15  <supermop> http://www.nipponsharyousa.com/news/20160819.jpg

23:45:47  <Wolf01> We use these ones as double decker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treno_ad_alta_frequentazione

23:46:54  <supermop> damn it why is this thing $470:

23:46:55  <supermop> https://www.amazon.co.jp/Railway-Collection-Hiroshima-Electric-350/dp/B01N4HFFRQ/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1505425580&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=tomytec+hiroshima+tram

23:47:07  <Wolf01> Top deck: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Traino_di_Roma_01_(RaBoe).jpg Bottom deck: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Treno_TAF_-_Interni_-_Piano_Inferiore.jpg

23:47:51  <peter1138> Yeah but Italians are short.

23:48:37  *** andythenorth has quit IRC

23:48:43  <Wolf01> We have a lot of >1.85 ;)

23:48:52  <peter1138> 1.85 is short, yes.

23:49:43  <Wolf01> If you measure it in feet yes

23:50:02  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i'm certainly >1.85 :p

23:50:25  <Wolf01> I'm short, only 1.73 :(

23:52:58  <peter1138> Aww, my local TOC withdraw their Class 121 Bubble Car :(

23:53:42  <supermop> those exist on mainline railways stil?

23:54:19  <peter1138> Well it was withdrawn, so no :p

23:54:28  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a bubble car?

23:54:55  <supermop> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/W55033_at_Colne_Valley_Railway_2.JPG/220px-W55033_at_Colne_Valley_Railway_2.JPG

23:54:58  <supermop> i think

23:55:58  <supermop> this is quite nice: https://photos.smugmug.com/BR/BR-dmu/i-bxD7dcV/0/f2651369/L/b132-L.jpg

23:56:13  <peter1138> Yeah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_121

23:56:28  <peter1138> 57 years service.

23:57:00  <supermop> we have trains on our subway older than that

23:57:57  <supermop> oh i guess they are gone now

23:58:04  <supermop> now 53 is the oldest

23:58:38  <supermop> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R32/A_(New_York_City_Subway_car)

23:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause> well, in berlin they had trains built in the 1920s in use until the 1990s

23:59:42  <peter1138> Light weight stainless steel, yes. Hmm.

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