IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-09-13
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00:43:41 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> why am i not surprised that the lotto numbers are 4,8.15,16,23,42? <- I would have done 3, the last 3... also 8.15?
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14:10:26 <Wolf01> Mmmh VS constantly loses the Win10SDK
14:10:42 <__ln__> it wants to tell you something
14:11:02 <Wolf01> I would like to tell it something
14:15:15 <Wolf01> I install the old sdk (used by the vs2015), it works, compiles etc, I open a 2017 feature, it installs the new SDK, old sdk disappear, ok, upgrade the app for the new sdk... no it doesn't like it
14:18:30 <Wolf01> If I want to use it with vs2017 I need to drop support for anything older than creators update
14:28:02 <Wolf01> And meanwile they released another 3GB of updates, so I have to waste another day updating the shit
14:29:53 <milek7_> what are "2017 features"?
14:30:16 <Wolf01> Something used by the IDE itself
14:32:04 <Wolf01> I need to open a new tool window, it asks for SDK 15063, ok, you already had it, the installer just "install" it in 0.5 nanoseconds, reopen the solution "impossible to load the project, it requires the SDK 10586"...
14:33:03 <milek7_> i use v141 sdk with vs2017 on win7
14:34:04 <Wolf01> Yes, that's what I want to do, but the project keeps asking for the 10586 even if I change it to 15063
14:36:16 <Wolf01> And since I'm developing an UWP app, I have double SDK, so I think the Win10 one and the Mobile one are misaligned and keep upgrading and downgrading the other one
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14:47:18 <chembot141> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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14:52:15 <andythenorth> Wolf01: played any OpenTTD? o_O
14:55:47 <Wolf01> Lol, the best part is that all the 3 SDK are currently installed
14:57:25 <Wolf01> 10586, 14393 and 15063... and even the old 10240 which I don't even use, but every time I modify the installation of VS2017 it tries to reinstall all that stuff
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15:53:04 <Wolf01> So... "," is a string, but ',' is a char... nice to know
15:54:31 <Wolf01> I figured it out because .Split(",") threw an error
15:55:23 <Wolf01> Now, I need to remember how to debug async methids
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15:58:15 <Wolf01> Ok, I need to break before the async and then step into
16:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, new xkcd phone
16:06:13 <Wolf01> I just see it on the app I'm working on... a feed reader for webcomics
16:08:07 <Wolf01> The front camera in the center of the screen is wonderful
16:08:45 <Eddi|zuHause> a feed reader for webcomics? sounds like nobody ever implemented that before ever
16:08:57 <Wolf01> I'm implementing my own for my needs
16:10:33 <Wolf01> I need to introduce the categories now
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16:18:00 <Wolf01> There's a custom service web wrapper, maybe could be used to access the webchat... I bet adding custom services requires to pay for the full version
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16:22:31 <Wolf01Clatter> It seem to work.. but I could just use the site... and avoid that nasty ads bar...
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17:04:59 <Eddi|zuHause> a while ago i was looking into connecting with telepathy to the steam messenger, but i didn't get it to work
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17:23:03 <Alberth> quite non-trivial problem thus
17:32:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it didn't find the plugin
17:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and i didn't really understood the program enough to figure it out
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18:31:07 <Wolf01> So I now saved the categories for the feeds I subscribed, it would be cool to also use them and not just show "Yet another lego blog - In category: LEGO" "Yet another webcomic - In category: webcomic"
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18:32:00 <Wolf01> I think I'll replace the pivot
18:35:28 <Wolf01> Meh... I need to group them
18:36:39 <Wolf01> Group, get only the latest N for each subscription, order by date
18:56:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that's just a simple sql statement?
18:57:15 <Wolf01> Yes, but I'm not using SQL
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19:47:47 <_dp_> looks like some kind of bug in curvature calculation
19:50:20 <Wolf01> Yes, the train exited the first bend, but also went up by 1 level
19:53:11 <_dp_> `-. seems to somehow affect curvature even though it has turns in different directions
19:53:44 <_dp_> but it doesn't count as curvature = 1, more like -1 to curvature
19:53:51 <_dp_> basically, something is broken :p
19:55:23 <_dp_> and it also works differently in different directions
19:56:00 <_dp_> going backwards it slows down to 111 on middle section already
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20:25:42 <andythenorth> 1 in 1 out policy :P
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20:35:53 <frosch123> _dp_: the algorithm is based on average curvature
20:36:16 <frosch123> when the curve at the end is dropped, to overall curve gets a lot shorter but only maginally less curvy
20:36:54 <frosch123> check train_cmd.cpp:369
20:37:02 <frosch123> "sum" is the number of wagons from first to last curve
20:37:08 <frosch123> "numcurve" is the number of curves
20:37:22 <frosch123> so, not a bug, the algorithm is intended like that
20:41:10 <_dp_> frosch123, yeah, I noticed averaging mentioned in wiki, but that still doesn't explain everything
20:41:49 <_dp_> also tbh that averaging looks very silly to me, why not just use minimum?
20:42:01 <frosch123> minimum would always be the same
20:42:24 <_dp_> as long as train stays on the curve
20:43:15 <_dp_> and yeah, same for every curve of same size, which seems much more clear to me
20:43:20 <frosch123> well, all "realistic" stuff has that problem :p
20:43:34 <frosch123> people come up with a set of curves, and always find a case where it behave weird
20:43:48 <_dp_> that doesn't even look any realistic to me
20:47:23 <frosch123> .devzone says you were horsing around
20:52:40 <andythenorth> Horse is falling in a hole
20:52:47 <andythenorth> I have about 27 different mail wagons
20:52:58 <andythenorth> so you can always make integer length express trains :|
20:59:29 <_dp_> hm, so trains with smaller wagons travel faster on curves...
21:00:45 <frosch123> no idea whether that was intended or whether the algorithm was composed before short wagons
21:01:20 <frosch123> _dp_: also those multi-articulared vehicles travel faster
21:02:26 <andythenorth> how can I exploit this? o_O ^
21:03:28 <frosch123> i guess the shorten-vehicles stuff was not intended, since it also circumvents the 90 degree (2x45) test
21:05:36 <_dp_> 90 check should still be fine, as there has to be 90 diff somewhere in train
21:05:52 <_dp_> regardless of parts length
21:05:58 <frosch123> there are two 90 cases
21:06:07 <andythenorth> supermop_: I have trains called Roarer, Screamer, Wizzo
21:06:26 <andythenorth> Shredder or Growler for a medium freight loco?
21:06:29 <frosch123> one for real 90, one for 2x45
21:06:31 <andythenorth> both are RL names :P
21:06:49 <_dp_> frosch123, ah, 2x45 yes, that's broken
21:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like we discussed that before, but in the end nobody felt the need to actually change anything, and everybody just shrugged and moved on
21:13:53 <_dp_> looks easily fixable to me
21:14:08 <_dp_> as long as everyone is fine with completely changing the logic))
21:14:23 <frosch123> i am fine with fixing the wagon vs. length thing
21:14:52 <frosch123> but changing the average with something else will result in other cases which are not "as realistic as hoped"
21:15:31 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also a thing with speed on diagonals
21:15:34 <_dp_> dunno about realisting but it definitely won't be as dumb :p
21:15:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and a problem where short trains don't have the same curve limits as long trains
21:16:07 <_dp_> train slowing down after exiting the turn, how is that even realistic :p
21:16:45 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: long trains have advantages
21:16:46 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, is it rly a problem? I always though of it as a feature
21:17:24 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: if you train is 100 tiles long and there is a curve in the front and in the back, 100 straight tiles will average out almost everything
21:17:25 <_dp_> hardly realistic, yes, but still nice imo
21:18:02 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but a train shorter than 100 tiles will have no limit at all, since it's only on one curve
21:18:36 <frosch123> yep, it's always wrong
21:18:44 <frosch123> for each cruve length you likely find a weird train
21:19:04 <_dp_> I'd say 1) sum wagon lengths 2) take minimum instead of average
21:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i think my suggestion worked like this: a train reserves a "braking distance" ahead, and the speed limit is calculated on the reservation, instead of the train
21:20:17 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, how does that apply to curves, it can still reserve as much as it wants
21:20:38 <Eddi|zuHause> ("braking distance" depends on current speed, and possibly some other train properties)
21:21:28 <_dp_> that's the way to do realistic breaking, yes
21:21:37 <_dp_> will still run in other issues though in openttd case
21:21:54 <_dp_> like sudden rail removal :p
21:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> disallow removal if a reservation is active ("train in the way")
21:22:59 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, what about sudden signal change?
21:23:38 <_dp_> well, I guess signals should treat reservation as part of the train
21:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause> signal behavior also needs to take the reservation into account
21:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, path signals already do, and block signals should treat a reservation the same way as a train in the block
21:26:19 <_dp_> and what signal should show for reservation, red or green?
21:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> signal with reservation shows green (like current path signals)
21:28:39 <Eddi|zuHause> this solves several problems, like trains needing an "emergency brake" because the signal suddenly turned red
21:28:55 <_dp_> path signals are arledy confusing af :p
21:29:07 <_dp_> and they don't show green, they just blink green
21:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that will also be "solved", because the reservation is done earlier, they show green for longer
21:30:58 <_dp_> why are they red by default btw?
21:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> because that was easier to implement, instead of looking for a train waiting for a free path to know when to show red
21:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and it would be silly to have a train wait in front of a green signal
21:33:26 <_dp_> turn red if train failed to reserve track
21:34:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the signal doesn't know about any trains
21:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so making signal state depend on train state is non-trivial
21:34:39 <_dp_> trains know about signal, they can switch it
21:34:47 <_dp_> totally unrealistic, I know xD
21:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> signals default to red is actually very realistic, because signalling tends to err on the "safe" side
21:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> just with real networks, the "reservation" is far longer ahead
21:39:22 <_dp_> btw, I also though about realistic breaking some time ago. pretty much same reservation thing, even calculated some formulas for that reservation "head" movement
21:39:53 <_dp_> unrelated to openttd though
21:41:13 <_dp_> also has nothing to do with curve speed limits :p
21:41:58 <_dp_> or rather speed limit calculation, because calculating the effect of that speed limit on reservation "movement" is another tricky question
21:42:58 <_dp_> hm, and openttd calculating limit by train instead of track definitely doesn't make that easier
21:43:38 <_dp_> since you need limit to calculate reservation and to calculate limit you need train to already be there
22:01:00 <frosch123> all current links are on the "community" page
22:01:07 <frosch123> the other stuff is probably from 2004
22:04:45 <_dp_> oh, don't think I ever looked at community page xD
22:05:18 <frosch123> really, it's a popular battle ground for competitive servers
22:05:32 <frosch123> they fight for the best position on the list or something
22:06:52 <frosch123> i think it was btpro vs reddit
22:06:53 <_dp_> well, I'm happy that citymania is even there xD
22:07:16 <_dp_> along with long dead novapolis but whatever
22:09:07 <_dp_> wonder how ST 2 still didn't think of adding separate "competitive servers" section to be first there :p
22:09:49 <ST2> lazyness works in misterious ways :P
22:11:40 <_dp_> ST2, do you even get any visitors from that page?
22:15:16 <_dp_> oh, actually, we do, it's just not on a first page
22:15:22 <_dp_> no wonder I never noticed it
22:15:37 <_dp_> but yeah, whole 15 visitors in a year! xD
22:17:17 <frosch123> how much does that increase by putting it first?
22:17:59 <_dp_> dunno, let's try and I'll tell you in a year :p
22:19:06 <_dp_> 24 visitors from bananas xD
22:19:27 <frosch123> is bananas linked from anywhere?
22:21:08 <_dp_> there is a link on cm grf on bananas
22:21:47 <frosch123> yes, but i thought the bananas website is itself pretty much hidden
22:22:08 <_dp_> frosch123, well, not as hidden as wiki I guess :p
22:22:36 <_dp_> hm, 15 visitors seems to be the point where all the weirdness starts
22:23:00 <_dp_> liky 15 from addons.mozilla.org, 15 more from outlook.live.com
22:24:59 <_dp_> oh, that's some phishing domain
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23:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i'm missing something that makes a blue tongue
23:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't seen any ink around
23:45:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that seems excessive :p
23:45:27 <Wolf01> Rufus is weird, maybe licking something strange
23:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> not MY tongue :p
23:46:12 <_dp_> debug vehicles are missing wagons :(
23:46:32 <_dp_> need some grf with short wagons
23:47:24 <_dp_> ah, nvm I forgot I can stack locos
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23:49:09 <_dp_> oh, crap but they have 52 kmh speed
23:52:40 <_dp_> so, does anyone know grf with smth like 4/8 wagons?
23:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ukrs? but that probably does not solve your speed limit problems
23:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a setting to disable wagon speed limits
23:58:13 <_dp_> ok, found a way to do 177kmh with ukrs, that should do)
23:58:51 <_dp_> these supersmall wagons look quite silly :)
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